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Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces

Little Hawk 21 Jun 03 - 12:50 AM
GUEST 20 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 03 - 02:38 PM
Frankham 20 Jun 03 - 01:57 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 03 - 09:40 AM
Frankham 20 Jun 03 - 08:46 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 03 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Native 20 Jun 03 - 12:25 AM
GUEST 19 Jun 03 - 10:56 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 03 - 10:17 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 03 - 07:57 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM
Gareth 19 Jun 03 - 07:02 PM
Bobert 19 Jun 03 - 06:57 PM
Frankham 19 Jun 03 - 06:50 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 03 - 01:52 PM
Forum Lurker 19 Jun 03 - 01:48 PM
Teribus 19 Jun 03 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Whats New 19 Jun 03 - 07:37 AM
Teribus 19 Jun 03 - 04:13 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 03 - 11:35 AM
Teribus 18 Jun 03 - 04:39 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 03 - 01:42 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 04:18 PM
Gareth 17 Jun 03 - 02:11 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 12:47 PM
Forum Lurker 17 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 12:14 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 03 - 11:57 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 03 - 06:56 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 03 - 06:44 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 03 - 10:40 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 16 Jun 03 - 04:33 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 03 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Helen S 14 Jun 03 - 05:46 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 13 Jun 03 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,native 12 Jun 03 - 08:03 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 03 - 03:23 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 03 - 11:19 AM
Forum Lurker 12 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 12 Jun 03 - 02:56 AM
Teribus 12 Jun 03 - 02:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 03 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,New York City 11 Jun 03 - 07:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 12:50 AM

Ditto for Hitler, Idi Amin, and Al Capone...all of whom gave not a tinker's damn for the rules the World made for them. Neighborhood bullies.

"Rules? We don't need no steenkin' rules!" They made up their own rules. So does Israel. So does America. So does Al Queda. So did Hitler. Lawlessness, justified by expediency, justified by political resolve, justified by the certainty of moral superiority.

Courage is an admirable thing, and it can be found in the hearts of both heroes and villains (depending on your perspective). It's up to each one of us to decide which is which. Maybe in some cases they are actually one and the same. I know this...every hard fighter is a hero in his own eyes, and in the eyes of those who back him...for reasons best known to themselves. He is a villain in the eyes of those whom he attacks.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
A bully only picks on the weak ones you see
But will he live by the rules that he makes for you and me?
He's the neighborhood bully.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 02:38 PM

Hey, good point, Frank. I suspect that the person who started the thread was simply hoping to stir up some controversy.

They succeeded.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 01:57 PM

There is something inherently wrong with the premise of this thread. Surely not all Palestinians aim to destroy the peace process. It's in their best interest not to. Some may see it that way.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 09:40 AM

"Neighborhood Bully" is about the only song Bob Dylan ever wrote that I largely disagree with. :-) What the heck, Bob's a Jew. I can understand how he might see it. If he was an Arab, he'd no doubt have written it the other way around.

Life is a stage play, and everyone gets to play the part that they can best relate to. If they can understand their opponents' parts, then they are approaching mastery.

Like I said...try for a win-win solution for a change.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 08:46 AM

Gareth,

However imperfect the UN is, it's the only chance we have for peace in the Middle East. Bush has completely botched it by compromising our position with the UN in his pre-emptive debacle. What the Us needs now is real leadership with someone who understands what the UN stands for and is willing to work whole-heartedly with that body.

The simplistic solutions being offered by "loose cannons" such as Rumsfeld (at which even seasoned military men are rolling their eyes) is exacerbating the problem rather than solving it.

There have been some initiatives taken at the UN which if considered would have had an impact. One of those, I believe, still, is Weapons inspections by a conscientious team. We did have that in in time would have weakened Hussein. Now, with the Administrations pre-emptive actions, we have actually give Hussein a martyr's status in many parts of the Arab world. The view of the world is something like this: what's the difference between an American agressor and a dicatatorial regime like Hussein's? Why haven't the Sunni Baath Party given up?

This all impacts on the US involvement in the Middle East. As long as we have unfinished business in Afghanistan and Iraq, why should Palestinians or even pragmatic Israelis look to us for mitigation?

We need a president who has the foresight to understand the cultural implications involved in the religious factions in Iraq and Iran and the true needs of both Israelis and Palestinians which are presently being ignored.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 07:07 AM

Forum Lurker,

In the real world, unfortunately, I tend to agree with your reading on points 2 and 6 - hence my referring to the "painful and possibly terminal political realities".

Bobert,

Apart from the first one, the six points I set down in my post were set out in no particular order. I do believe that to get the show on the road the violence must stop. Israel has repeatedly stated their willingness to stop provided attacks on Israeli civilians stops - the balls in whose court Bobert?

As for:

"..you still expect "preconditions" from Palestine but offer no tit-fir-tat. That's precisely why, inspite of many points that we agree on in your proposal, that your solution is doomed from the start. How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation. Now that would be a real start... And a real start is what is needed for the other provisions of you proposal to fall into place."

Now I'll take it really slow for you Bobert but don't the following points

"2. Clear statement by the Israeli parliament that the State of Israel is formed by the boundaries that existed immediately prior to the start of the "Six-Day" War of 1967.

3. Acceptance by the Palestinians that the State of Palestine shall comprise of the West Bank and Gazza strip."

Amount to exactly the same thing as:

"How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation."

By the way Bobert the elected representatives who constitute the Palestine Authority have accepted Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state - unfortunately the unelected likes of Hamas, Hezbollah (sp?), Islamic Jihad, etc., don't and show no intention of ever doing so.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 12:25 AM

I have never heard such garbage coming from the oppressors. Boberts is the only one that make sense............................


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 10:56 PM

Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 10:17 PM

Wise people seek win-win situations that benefit all parties. Foolish people seek win-lose situations that benefit one party at the expense of another or several others.

The Israeli government and Hamas alike have not indicated much wisdom thus far...because they are both operating from a position of self-righteousness and a belief in their own moral superiority, and because they literally don't give a damn about the "other guy". That's win-lose philosophy, and it will only lead to more bloodshed, anger, and despair, mostly for the noncombatants on both sides.

Both sides have committed terrorism from the outset of the conflict. Both sides feel justified in continuing to do so.

To fight terrorism with counter-terrorism and claim it as a legitimate response is hypocritical, but it is also typical of people at war with one another.

War is the least intelligent solution to any problem...same as a fistfight. As for "self-defence", I've seldom heard of a war in modern times where both sides did not loudly claim that that was exactly what they were doing!

Ha. Ha. Propaganda, that's all. Operation Iraqi Freedom, for example, had nothing to do with self-defence whatsoever, nor anything to do with freedom, but you just call it what you think will sound good on the evening news.

Propagandists and win-lose believers start wars...and ordinary people pay for them.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 07:57 PM

BEN-GURION'S SCANDALS

by Naeim Giladi

Description:

States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM

The Real Aim

by Uri Avnery

EXCERPT

The real aim of "Operation Defensive Shield" was not to "destroy the infrastructure of terrorism".

This was merely a good slogan for uniting the people of Israel, who are angry and afraid after the suicide bombings. It is also a good political device, allowing Sharon to ride on the bandwagon of President Busch's "war against international terrorism". Under the umbrella of "destroying the infrastructure of terrorism" one can do practically anything.

If Sharon had really intended to "destroy the infrastructure of terrorism", he would have acted very differently. He would have given the Palestinian masses hope of achieving their national freedom in the near future. He would have fortified the position of Yasser Arafat, the only effective partner for peace. He would have strengthened the Palestinian security forces and radically improved economic conditions in the Palestinian territories.

But destroying the infrastructure of terrorism is not Ariel Sharon's aim. His program is far more radical: to break the backbone of the Palestinian people, crush their governmental institutions, turn the people into human wreckage that can be dealt with as he wishes. This may entail shutting them up in several enclaves or even driving them out of the country altogether.

As Sharon sees it, this would be finishing off the job started in 1948: to establish the real Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river; a state inhabited solely by Jews. It was no accident that he openly supported Slobodan Milosevic, the inventor of "ethnic cleansing"...

...When I wrote this a year ago, it sounded like malicious slander. Sharon was still pictured as a man determined to fight terrorism, not as a person using the fight against terrorism as a means to achieve quite different aims.

No more.

Four days ago I was in Ramallah. I sneaked into the town (Israelis are forbidden by the military commander from entering the Palestinian territories) in order to see it for myself. I visited the Palestinian ministries. A shocking sight, indeed.

Take, for example, the Palestinian Ministry of Education. It is housed in an imposing building, probably going back to British times, a mixture of neo-Classic European and oriental styles. In front of it there was a rose garden - "was", because a tank has crisscrossed it, for no apparent reason, leaving only one purple rosebush in all its glory. Just so. To teach them a lesson...


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 07:02 PM

"Quick and simplistic decisions are not the best surgery"

Frank, I agree, but sometimes they are the only decisions possible, given he circumstances of the time.

There is some good will and desire for peace there in the middle east, for Gods sake give them a chance.

I might have faith in the UN if it was capable of any objective decision, and coherent action. This failure was evident before the rigged election that put Bush in power.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 06:57 PM

Night after night we see the utter superiority of the Isreali amed forces, yet T, in his or her's proposal, makes no mention of diarming anyone but the "terrorists". Hmmmmm? Like who are the terorists, T-Bird? If you're a 6 year old kid playin' in the street and get yer head blown off, who is the trerrorist here.

See, you still expect "preconditions" from Palestine but offer no tit-fir-tat. That's precisely why, inspite of many points that we agree on in your proposal, that your solution is doomed from the start. How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation. Now that would be a real start... And a real start is what is needed for the other provisions of you proposal to fall into place.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Frankham
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 06:50 PM

Teribus, I agree to some degree with your assessment. The problem is that the Sharon Adminstration has little moral authority as long as it continues its incarceration of "Refusniks". This is not democracy.

We part on this statement, however. "The credibility of the United Nations will be restored the instant the UN demonstrates that when confronted by a rapidly deteriorating situation that it can act with purpose and resolve."

This can never happen as long as the Bush Adminstration continues its anti-UN policy and resorts to uninlateral pre-emption above the wishes of the UN community. In this, the Bush administration has contributed heartilly to a "rapidly deteriorating situation".

Quick and simplistic decisions are not the best surgery.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM

What Americans need to Know -- but probably won't be told -- to Understand Palestinian Rage

By Eduardo Cohen

EXCERPT:

As the Persian Gulf War was raging I had what I felt to be the particular honor, as an American Jew, of being sponsored by the San Francisco Bay Area Chapter of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee on a fact finding mission to investigate Israeli human rights abuses carried out against Palestinians under emergency measures declared during the war. I had been reporting on US policy in the Middle East for more than ten years on KPFA and other California radio stations and I had been documenting and lecturing on anti-Arab racism in American popular culture and the news media...

...Not only have American reporters left out crucial information necessary to a comprehensive understanding of the conflict and the peace process, but for far to long they have demonstrated a mindlessly uncritical acceptance of even the most absurd Israeli arguments against making peace. Foremost of these is the oft used Israeli argument that Palestinian authorities must guarantee an end to terrorist attacks as a prerequisite to any Israeli agreements. It has always been a laughable argument, except to American journalists.
If the United States government could not prevent the bombings at Oklahoma City and the World Trade Towers and the Israeli government could not prevent the assassination of its own prime minister, how can Yaser Arafat possibly guarantee the end of terrorist acts by Palestinian elements outside of his control?...

...I sensed some of the frustration and anger that Palestinians feel when I spoke with a typical Palestinian farmer in the West Bank whose well of precious water, which he needed to irrigate his crops, had been confiscated by Israeli authorities so a nearby Jewish settlement could fill its swimming pools and water its green lawns.
I sensed some of what Palestinians felt when I interviewed more than a half dozen Palestinians whose homes had been dynamited or bulldozed by Israeli tractors because a teenage member of the family had tossed a rock at an Israeli troop carrier or because they tried to build an extra room without the building permit they knew Israeli officials would never provide.
It is almost ten years later and, again, the influx of settlers, the expansion of Jewish settlements, the building of Jewish roads, the demolition of Palestinian homes and the confiscation of Palestinian water all continue...

...Clearly there are virulently racist elements within the greater Palestinian community... but I found a real difference between Israeli racism against Arabs, based on a feeling of racial superiority, and Palestinian hatred of Jews which is an understandable Palestinian response to the policies of the Jewish government of Israel and a continuing Jewish occupation.
It is comparable to the difference between the hatred of Black Americans by Southern white racists during the Civil Rights Movement in the United States and the hatred many Black Americans felt towards whites as the result of the racist oppression they experienced. It is an important difference...


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 01:52 PM

Teribus, you are a pleasure to know. You never fail to rise to the challenge (or the bait?), and you are tremendously consistent. You remind me very much of the way I used to be not very long ago...except that you are instinctively placed on the other side of the grand political divide, that's all...

I imagine if we sat down and talked for 10 or 12 hours about Israel and the Palestinians we would find there's a lot we agree about, but we'd still be on opposite sides of that same divide. Interesting, isn't it?

I don't feel powerfully compelled to win verbal arguments with other people at this point, because winning doesn't prove anything (in my opinion). People can win and still be wrong...or half-right...or three quarters right...or whatever.

I've seen that happen many times. But talking can still be quite interesting.

Regardless of whether one of us "wins" or not in one of these political debates the World will still keep doing what it was going to do anyway. It's an ego struggle if you have to "win". Nothing more. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That's why I have a certain equanimity about the whole thing. Go ahead and "win" (in someone's view) any old time you like...it doesn't cause me to lose any sleep nor do I feel any threat to my ego on account of it.

I bet we both believe firmly in truth, justice, objectivity, fairness, liberty, and all those other great ideals. I'm sure of it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 01:48 PM

Teribus-I'm afraid that #2 and #6 are not going to happen. Jerusalem has been the focus of Jewish identity for millenia, and I believe that an overwhelming majority of Israelis would prefer continuing war to the loss of Jerusalem. The rest are quite feasible, and I think that, in time, the Palestinians would accept the rest of the occupied territories. Most immediately, the removal of all illegal settlements would show the Palestinians that Israel was willing to make concessions (and reduce Israel's security costs considerably).


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 08:37 AM

Guest What's New,

I don't think anyone involved is giving any thought whatsoever to uniting two sets of people, in fact quite the opposite. What a great deal of thought is going into is a means by which two sets of people can be physically and politically seperated in such a way that they can agree to peacefully co-exist - and that is one whale of a difference.

To achieve this some extremely painful and possibly terminal political realities have to be faced on both sides.

1. The violence must stop, with total and verifiable disarmament of the terrorist groups.

2. Clear statement by the Israeli parliament that the State of Israel is formed by the boundaries that existed immediately prior to the start of the "Six-Day" War of 1967.

3. Acceptance by the Palestinians that the State of Palestine shall comprise of the West Bank and Gazza strip.

4. Abandonment on the part of the Palestinians of the "right-of-return" issue.

5. A binding agreement, enforced by the UN if necessary, covering the region with regard to water supplies and resources.

6. Creation of Jerusalem as an independent international city of historic and religious importance.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,Whats New
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 07:37 AM

From the contents of this thread you all spend so much time raking over old arguments like who did what to whom that you give no thought to any constuctve way to unite two sets of people whose militants woud cause a fight alone in an empty house.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 04:13 AM

Thanks for the reply Little Hawk,

"If I were running a country and found my neighbours attacking my civilian population indiscriminately (?) what would I do?

Well, the first thing I would do (just as an immediate emergency response) would be to use my police and military to respond to such attacks (on my own soil or at the border areas) in an appropriate fashion."

Israel is doing that. In addition, because they are not faced with a conventional enemy but by various terrorist groups, aided and abetted by sympathetic regimes, they find themselves having to adopt the policy of prevention by attacking those groups on their own ground. It is better to have the terrorist groups at least thinking about their own safety and security as this disrupts their planning and operations. Putting your enemy on the defensive is by far preferable to you merely sitting back within your own borders and waiting for the attacks to come - the attacks you suffer become greater in number and magnitude.


"I would also try to detect and prevent those attacks before they occur."

Israel is doing precisely that.

"The next thing I would do is try and find out why my neighbours are launching those attacks...and I mean REALLY try. Then I would try to talk to them about it, and see if something could be done besides killing each other...reach an agreement over the issues, in other words."

Talks have been taking place, agreements have been reached. But unfortunately they have been between the elected representatives of each side of this conflict, and from the Palestinian side they are not the combatants. Any agreement reached bewteen the Palestinian Authority and Israel is rejected out of hand by Hamas, Al-Fatah and Islamic Jihad - they are the ones attacking Israel.

"You suggest the idea of neighbours who "openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction." That's a fairly unusual situation. Most people have many aims in life, not a "sole" aim."

The destruction and eventual elimination of the State of Israel is a clearly stated Hamas objective and is very well documented. While most people (i.e. individuals) have many aims in life, terrorist organisations tend to have one objective/aim/goal call it what you will - so the situation is not unusual at all.


"Which neighbours do you mean?...does it mean just certain individuals among them?..... How does one respond intelligently and effectively to that? One good way to respond, I figure, is to defend on your own ground rather than making indiscriminate attacks on other people's ground, but that depends on the exact military factors involved and all that."

The course of action you suggest above would be neither intelligent or effective - it surrenders the initiative, completely, to your enemy. I believe the military factors pertaining to the situation under discussion are fairly well understood.

"It's a tremendously complicated matter, Teribus, and it cannot be simply answered."

Couldn't agree more with you Little Hawk - but so far the realisation of that has not prevented you or Bobert proferring extremely unrealistic and simplistic solutions.

"In fact, to answer it adequately would require a vast amount of time and references to the specific circumstances which concern you in having posed the silly damn question...and I might have to sit here for 3 hours writing...or 6 hours.

I'm not going to do that. :-) I'd rather do something that's beneficial to my life."

The "silly damn question" as you put it was posed in response to an even sillier damn suggestion:

"the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours."


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 11:35 AM

Ah. Okay, I'll attempt to answer that. Gimme a minute here. Hmmmm....

Okay.

I have never forsaken my right of self-defence, and I do not anticipate doing so. Try robbing my house and find out about that.

If I were running a country and found my neighbours attacking my civilian population indiscriminately (?) what would I do?

Well, the first thing I would do (just as an immediate emergency response) would be to use my police and military to respond to such attacks (on my own soil or at the border areas) in an appropriate fashion. You and I might have different ideas on what's appropriate, I suppose...or maybe not...who knows? I would also try to detect and prevent those attacks before they occur.

The next thing I would do is try and find out why my neighbours are launching those attacks...and I mean REALLY try. Then I would try to talk to them about it, and see if something could be done besides killing each other...reach an agreement over the issues, in other words.

You suggest the idea of neighbours who "openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction." That's a fairly unusual situation. Most people have many aims in life, not a "sole" aim.   Which neighbours do you mean? All of them or some of them? Does it mean every man, woman, and child among said neighbours or does it mean just certain individuals among them? I suspect it means the latter. How does one respond intelligently and effectively to that? One good way to respond, I figure, is to defend on your own ground rather than making indiscriminate attacks on other people's ground, but that depends on the exact military factors involved and all that.

It's a tremendously complicated matter, Teribus, and it cannot be simply answered. In fact, to answer it adequately would require a vast amount of time and references to the specific circumstances which concern you in having posed the silly damn question...and I might have to sit here for 3 hours writing...or 6 hours.

I'm not going to do that. :-) I'd rather do something that's beneficial to my life.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 04:39 AM

True, Little Hawk, very true - I could just sit and read the opinions, and contentions, of others, no matter how outrageous, inaccurate and false they may be and respond purely by reference to the person/time/date of the post and writing one word - Bullshit.

I prefer, however, to draw attention to where the inaccuracies and falsehoods appear in the contention and back that up with the appropriate facts. Following that course, I believe, promotes informative debate.

By the way I still await your answer to the question I asked you regarding how you go about resolving your problems with your neighbours having totally forsaken your right of self-defence, while yours neighbours continue to attack your civilian population indiscriminately, and who openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 01:42 AM

You need to stop examining the World around you so meticulously, Teribus, and examine yourself for a change. Look within, I mean. If you did, you would be able to express your truth in a mere fifty or so words instead of 5,000 and you would no longer so glibly support violent solutions to the World's problems. That's my opinion.

Beats me where you find time to even wash or eat these days, what with all these political wrangles, and your lengthy dissertations on "the facts"... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 04:18 PM

Sept 11 kicked off WW3. This war is being waged by the IMF/World Bank against 'rogue nations' who won't subscribe to World Bank-U.N. policies (mostly Moslem nations who have laws against usury). Two nations have already been invaded by the U.S. and turned over to the U.N. Iran is now being prepared, as is North Korea. These are the major rogue nations. They have assets. Oil and Opium. Bush's announced 'perpetual war' against 62 rogue nations began on Sept 11, with an 'event like Pearl Harbor' to galvanize the American people and get us behind the mis-use of our military for internationalist purposes. This plan was outlined in the Bush Company's Project for a New American Century report. And Sept 11 was just the first step...the other shoe will probably drop when North Korea attacks.

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld announced a new policy of 'pre-emptive war'. The U.S. can attack anyone who threatens national interest. The natural outgrowth of that policy is that all other nations in the world can now assume the same right to pre-emptively attack. And North Korea's paranoid leader has said he would attack S. Korea if the U.S. even did something as mild as impose new sanctions. So then Rumsfeld released a 'secret' hundred page 'sneak attack' plan...where the Pentagon outlined a plan to attack the country. And N. Korea may have 100-300 nuclear missles.

The international tyrannists WANT North Korea to nuke the U.S. The resulting surrender of constitutional rights will lead to our enslavement. Terrorism WORKS. That's why the U.S. and Israel have used it for so long. Problem is, they're not using it in the interests of those they swore to serve. Sharon and Bush have no nationality...they serve the World Bank.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 02:11 PM

Hmmm ! Ah well, conspiracy theories rule again if guest 17 june 03 01.38 is correct.

But hang on, isn't he stereotyping, and denigrating Moslems by suggesting that they were incabable of organising the 11th of September ???

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 01:44 PM

No, guest of 1:38, the American governmnet was not responsible for September 11th. We all know that it was Israel and that all the Jews were evacuated from the WTC before the planes hit.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM

The guest of 12:14 gives us these so-called Zionist truth links. In actual fact they're from a discredited Palestinian propaganda site.

I wouldn't believe their version of the truth.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 01:38 PM

Just to clarify...the Pentagon did the Sept 11 bombings. They are the only organization capable of carrying out such a complex operation, and they ordered the NORAD interceptor jets to stand down during the hijackings. I point this out because the illegitimate US govt fabricated the event, just like Israel supports Hamas in order to fabricate terrorist events. The GOVERNMENTS of the world are the terrorist problem. They fund terrorism as a way to rally citizens behind unpopular causes, like militarization and relinquishment of rights. Israel needs to stop supporting its rival terrorist organizations, just like the CIA and Pentagon need to quit supporting al Qeada and the 'pro-democracy Iranian students', etc.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:47 PM

Famous Zionist Leaders Quotes: Based On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries

Chaim Weizmann Quotes

Even in the early 1920s, the Zionists goals were not popular among many Jewish comminutes around the world. However, the Zionist Organization, with Weizmann's leadership, was a able to erect a powerful lobbying facade in England and the United States as if they were speaking on behalf of all Jews, and in that regard Chaim Weizmann stated:

"The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was built on air ... every day and every hour of these last 10 years, when opening the newspapers, I thought: Whence will the next blow come? I trembled lest the British Government would call me and ask: 'Tell us, what is this Zionist Organization? Where are they, your Zionists?' ... The Jews, they knew, were against us [the Zionists]; we stood alone on a little island, a tiny group of Jews with a foreign past." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section V)

Looting, Looting, and More Looting: By the Israeli historian-journalist Tom Segev.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM

GUEST of 12:14-There are perfectly good humanitarian and foreign relations reasons. It's usually safer to assume that any given person is rational until proven otherwise, and I see no reason to believe that Lieberman's religious convictions are stronger than his professional convictions. The very article you posted a link to questions the conclusions you're making.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:14 PM

Joe Lieberman and the lunatic fringe of biblical prophecy

And why do evangelical Christians give so generously to move poor Russian Jews to Israel? Eckstein's critics say the answer lies in evangelical Christians' preoccupation with End Times prophesy.

"From their worldview," notes Nikhil Aziz, a researcher with Political Research Associates, a Massachusetts-based think tank, "the permanent establishment of Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming of Christ."

According to many evangelicals, the Second Coming will be preceded by the establishment of Israel and the return of all the Jews. The Jews will construct the "Third Temple," and there will be a great battle. When Christ reappears, those Jews who remain alive will be given a choice: convert or die.

"The support from the religious right is not so much support for Israel for political convictions, but support for Israel because of theological convictions," says Weldon Gaddy, founder and executive director of the Interfaith Alliance, a liberal Washington group. "And this is one part of a strategy for seeing the conversion of Jews."


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 11:57 AM

The Arab war against Israel is no more a territorial conflict than was al Qaeda's strike against America, and it can no more be resolved by the "road map" than anti-Americanism could be appeased by ceding part of the U.S. to an Islamist enclave. From the moment in 1947 when Jewish leaders accepted and Arab rulers rejected the U.N. partition plan of Palestine, the Arab-Israeli conflict bore no further likeness to more conventional territorial struggles. Arab rulers defied the U.N. charter by denying the legitimacy of a member state. Arab countries refused to acknowledge the existence of a single Jewish land. Arab rulers did not object to Israel because it rendered the Palestinians homeless. Rather, they ensured that the Palestinians should remain homeless so that they could organize their politics around opposition to Israel.

At any point during the past 55 years, Arab governments could have helped the Palestinian Arabs settle down to a decent life. They could have created the infrastructure of an autonomous Palestine on the West Bank of the Jordan and the Gaza territory that Egypt controlled until 1967, or encouraged the resettlement of Palestinians in Jordan, which constitutes the lion's share of the original mandate of Palestine. Rather than fund the Palestine Liberation Organization to foment terror against Israel they could have endowed Palestinian schools of architecture, engineering, medicine and law. What Israel did for its refugees from Arab lands, Arabs could have done much more sumptuously for the Palestinians displaced by the same conflict. Instead, Arab rulers cultivated generations of refugees in order to justify their ongoing campaign against the "usurper."

Hitler used the supposedly illegitimate presence of the Jews as the excuse for tightening control over all the instruments of state. His promise to rid Germany of "the Jewish vermin" ushered in an assault on democratic culture that gained popular support by targeting an unpopular minority. Anti-Semitism camouflaged the Nazi will to power and the imposition of totalitarian controls: In the name of limiting the "influence" of the Jews, Hitler delimited the power of the courts, the media, and the educational system. The Nazis had everyone debating the question of the Jews rather than questioning the legitimacy of the discriminatory laws against them.

In almost identical ways, the autocrats who govern Arab societies have used the "Zionist entity" to deflect attention from the worst aspects of their rule. The unwanted presence of the Jews became the rallying point for internal dissatisfaction with the mounting problems of Arab regimes. The drumbeat against Israel invited the world to debate the iniquities of the Jews rather than question the legitimacy of the attacks against them. This comparison is not intended to equate the Germans with the Arabs, except in the ways that both exploited anti-Semitism to achieve broader political goals. Both used the alleged threat of "the Jews" to excuse their own failures. Anti-Semitism in both situations linked otherwise warring groups of the Left and Right.

The problem with anti-Semitism in its older and newer varieties is that it seems to serve its patrons so well. Without question, Arab rulers successfully deflected attention from their offenses by their decades of war and propaganda against Israel. Even the liberal Western media that might have been expected to support a besieged fellow democracy have long since focused on alleged Israeli abuses instead of on the abuses of their Arab accusers.

But, just as happened in Europe, the Arab obsession with Israel grew increasingly destructive not only of its Jewish targets but also of the sponsoring regimes. Attacking Jews consumed energy that should have been directed at alleviating the misery of Arab subjects. Blaming the Jews postponed democratization, which begins with people taking responsibility for themselves.


Moreover, anti-Semitism metastasizes very quickly; its culture of hatred and its appeal to violence cannot be contained. Although Arab governments tried to direct the war against Israel according to their political needs, Islamist and nationalist groups espousing the same ideology sprang up independently, sometimes in defiance of government control. Anti-Semitism morphed into anti-Americanism -- not because America supported Israel but because America represented the same challenges of an open, democratic, competitive society. The Jews' function as a bulwark of democracy was determined by the despots who tried to crush them. America did not so much fight on the side of the Jews as find itself forced to tackle the anti-Jews.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 06:56 AM

Little Hawk,

Your historical parallel is, as usual, flawed.

As for:

"the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours."

I would dearly love to hear how this approach could be applied to the current situation vis-a-vis the Palestinians and Israelis. Its the seeking a better way of resolving the problems with your neighbours while those neighbours continue to deliberately target your civilian population totally indiscriminately using bombs, rockets, mortars and guns - that's the bit I would like to see explained - so, I am sure, would the bulk of the Israeli population.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 06:44 AM

Correct me if I am wrong Kevin but it was you who submitted the following:

"And it seems to me that, so far as the present leaders of the terrorist organisations are concerned, that is the last thing they want to see happen. I'd see that as including the most powerful of those organisations, the current Israeli government."

You specifically refer to the leaders of the terrorist organisations and then further amplify that by going out of your way to describe the Israeli Government as the most powerful of those organisations.

And then you come back and say that you do not equate them - remarkable, absolutely remarkable.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 10:40 PM

Here's a very interesting story of a Palestinian who has embraced Zionism. Click here to see it.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 04:33 PM

Thanks Helen

Tom


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 01:37 PM

Israel's new Army


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,Helen S
Date: 14 Jun 03 - 05:46 PM

Don't get upset period Tom. A state of peace goes against the agendas of some Iraelis some Americans some Arabs and some Palestinians. It's not complicated to state but awfully messy to solve. Of course the majority want to live without the threat of gunpowder. The emotional poster who starts all these threads under different names and often from different stated locations just seems to get a kick out of the constant exposure.

One reason that Mudcat works is that sometimes posters remain anonymous in hot button threads so as not to get into personal spats.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 11:05 AM

Thanks Guest.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,native
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 08:03 PM

BOBERT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES SENSE> I WAS IN PALISTINE WHEN THERE WAS JEWISH TERRORISTS


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM

Don't apologize to these pro-Israeli turds, Tom. Israel is the biggest terrorist state in the Mid East and doesn't WANT peace. Israel helped FOUND their biggest terrorist enemey, Hamas, so the fighting could go on. You're apologizing to people who KNOW all this, too. The Jews who promote a continuation of violence against Arabs are anti-Semites (Arabs are semites, too), and the Jews who try to play that 'race card' against you are resorting to underhanded methods name-calling because they can't justify their support of murder in any rational way.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM

I didn't "equate" the two organisations, I said that they are both engaged in terrorism.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:23 PM

Some important questions about America's war on terrorism and pictures of yesterday's terroristic Hamas suicide bombing can be seen here.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 11:19 AM

A couple of Guardian articles today:

Oona King article

Is Sharon to blame? Israelis wonder


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

Actually, Teribus, it had appeared a couple days ago that Sharon was willing to make concessions even before the cessation of terrorist attacks. The scale of yesterday's violence may threaten that.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:56 AM

Thank you for telling me.

As I said I'm sorry, I now know that Freedom of Speech works both ways.

Thank you for clearing that up

Tom


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:22 AM

Sorry Kevin, but you just cannot equate the two (Israeli Government and Hamas, et al).

The Palestinian terrorist groups are not the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, they are self appointed guardians of what they perceive to be the best interests of the Palestinian people (that normally coincides with what happens to be in their best financial interest as well - if you doubt that take a look at Arafats bank balance)

The Palestinian terrorist groups almost invariably mount totally indescriminate attacks specifically aimed at Israeli civilians - they very rarely take on the IDF, for good cause, any time they have they have come off decidedly second best.

The Israeli Government is the democratically elected representatives of the people of the state of Israel, and as such have a sworn duty to protect the citizens of that state.

Throughout the term of the current Intifada the Israeli Government has always been prepared to talk - on the sole condition that terrorist attacks stop.

The Palestinian Terrorist Groups on the other hand have never come out with a similar statement. They are consistant in their demands and in their ultimate goal - the destruction of the state of Israel - And that is not going to happen. For any progress to be made it is this side of the conflict that must move first.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:26 PM

True enough, there's a difference between an atempt to assassinate someone who is directing terrorist attacks and an attack aimed directly at civilians. But I suspect that an attempt by Hamas to assassinate Sharon would probably be viewed as terrorism.

This won't stop till one side refuses to retaliate. And it seems to me that, so far as the present leaders of the terrorist organisations are concerned, that is the last thing they want to see happen. I'd see that as including the most powerful of those organisations, the current Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 07:14 PM

This book by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal has the best analysis of the history of Israel I have seen. You can read a review of it by clicking here


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