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BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane

Little Hawk 16 May 03 - 03:37 PM
artbrooks 16 May 03 - 03:59 PM
Gareth 16 May 03 - 04:16 PM
Allan Dennehy 16 May 03 - 04:20 PM
Cluin 16 May 03 - 04:23 PM
Giac 16 May 03 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,DaveB.inVa 16 May 03 - 05:12 PM
Raedwulf 16 May 03 - 05:18 PM
harvey andrews 16 May 03 - 05:49 PM
The Walrus 16 May 03 - 06:15 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 03 - 06:22 PM
Matt_R 16 May 03 - 06:55 PM
Allan Dennehy 16 May 03 - 07:25 PM
Matt_R 16 May 03 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM
Matt_R 16 May 03 - 07:59 PM
Rapparee 16 May 03 - 09:03 PM
Gurney 16 May 03 - 10:49 PM
catspaw49 16 May 03 - 11:43 PM
Little Hawk 17 May 03 - 12:55 AM
stevetheORC 17 May 03 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Jon 17 May 03 - 07:16 AM
DonMeixner 17 May 03 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Jon 17 May 03 - 10:14 AM
Little Hawk 17 May 03 - 11:53 AM
leprechaun 17 May 03 - 02:42 PM
RolyH 17 May 03 - 03:28 PM
Little Hawk 17 May 03 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,permakid 17 May 03 - 06:08 PM
Little Hawk 17 May 03 - 06:43 PM
Allan Dennehy 17 May 03 - 07:02 PM
Cluin 18 May 03 - 12:05 AM
Lin in Kansas 18 May 03 - 02:47 AM
Fossil 18 May 03 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar 18 May 03 - 06:19 AM
catspaw49 18 May 03 - 07:53 AM
DonMeixner 18 May 03 - 09:16 AM
X 18 May 03 - 12:11 PM
X 18 May 03 - 12:36 PM
Charley Noble 18 May 03 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 18 May 03 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 18 May 03 - 01:28 PM
leprechaun 18 May 03 - 04:03 PM
Cluin 18 May 03 - 04:57 PM
Gareth 18 May 03 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 18 May 03 - 07:46 PM
leprechaun 18 May 03 - 08:56 PM
Little Hawk 19 May 03 - 12:11 AM
Teribus 19 May 03 - 04:38 AM
The Walrus 19 May 03 - 07:07 AM
Teribus 19 May 03 - 08:22 AM
Little Hawk 19 May 03 - 11:26 AM
Les from Hull 19 May 03 - 11:59 AM
The Walrus 19 May 03 - 03:38 PM
catspaw49 19 May 03 - 05:05 PM
Charley Noble 19 May 03 - 07:27 PM
Doug_Remley 19 May 03 - 10:20 PM
Cluin 19 May 03 - 11:19 PM
Little Hawk 20 May 03 - 12:13 AM
Doug_Remley 20 May 03 - 01:38 AM
stevetheORC 20 May 03 - 04:10 AM
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Les from Hull 20 May 03 - 09:30 AM
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Little Hawk 20 May 03 - 05:15 PM
Les from Hull 20 May 03 - 07:23 PM
leprechaun 20 May 03 - 10:37 PM
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Little Hawk 21 May 03 - 02:32 PM
Irish sergeant 21 May 03 - 04:03 PM
Little Hawk 22 May 03 - 12:04 AM
Teribus 22 May 03 - 06:44 AM
leprechaun 22 May 03 - 11:36 PM
Irish sergeant 23 May 03 - 11:47 AM
Little Hawk 23 May 03 - 12:33 PM
Les from Hull 26 May 03 - 03:08 PM
Phot 26 May 03 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Snoopy 26 May 03 - 07:35 PM
The Walrus 26 May 03 - 08:54 PM
Little Hawk 26 May 03 - 11:25 PM
Teribus 27 May 03 - 03:22 AM
Phot 27 May 03 - 03:38 AM
Little Hawk 27 May 03 - 12:19 PM
Les from Hull 27 May 03 - 02:00 PM
Irish sergeant 27 May 03 - 04:12 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 03 - 06:07 PM
Ian Darby 27 May 03 - 08:26 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 03 - 08:54 PM
Teribus 28 May 03 - 03:37 AM
Little Hawk 28 May 03 - 12:34 PM
Les from Hull 28 May 03 - 01:49 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 03 - 01:52 PM
Ian Darby 29 May 03 - 08:44 PM
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Little Hawk 30 May 03 - 10:27 AM
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Subject: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 03 - 03:37 PM

I thought..."what topic have we not yet touched upon ever on Mudcat?" And came up with this...

Okay. My favourite is the Albatros series of fighters, from the Albatros D.III to the D.VA. They were very graceful, beautiful looking little planes, and served as the backbone of the German forces for most of the war, being flown by virtually all the German aces, from Richthofen on down. They were biplanes. Their one weak point was that they could not sustain a sharp dive very long without shedding their wings (with fatal consequences). This was somewhat remedied in the D.VA model.

Go for it, Mudcat. We'll see if this thread hits 10 posts.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 May 03 - 03:59 PM

Interesting as the SPADs, Neupots and Fokker Triplanes are (with apologies to Eddie Rickenbacker, the Red Baron, and that lot), I kind of favor the Curtis Nancy NC-1. This was the first aircraft to fly the Atantic, in 1919.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Gareth
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:16 PM

Click 'Ere Enjoy.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:20 PM

Stand back everybody, I'm coming out of the closet! I've seen every Discovery programe ever about fighter planes, old and new. There is something really beautiful about those vintage planes, though. Only time I got really close to one was in the sixties. I was a child playing football out on the road when suddenly about 20 or 30 biplanes started fighting it out in the Dublin mountains a couple of miles from us whilst a couple of helicopters filmed it all. We all stood with our mouths open for half an hour or so as one of the planes got "shot down," span towards the ground with smoke pouring from its tail, then pulled out of its dive, switched of the smoke trail and climbed back up to the dog fight. Remember the blockbuster movie "The Blue Max?" Well that was part of it. I'll never forget that day.
Anyway, I know its not a fighter, but I'm going for the Vickers Vimy bomber.
Hope you get your 10 hits and many more Little Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Cluin
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:23 PM

A grade school teacher, who was doing a class on World War II heard that the father of one of her students, Helga Jansson, had been a fighter pilot during the war with the RAF. Mr Jansson had having left Sweden in `39 to join the war. She invited him to come in and speak to the class, He was more than happy to talk, and began with a story about a morning patrol where he had been nearly shot down.
    "Ve had been up for about tventy minutes flying over enemy territory, vhen ve noticed, yust in time, dere vas t'ree Fokkers diving on us from above."
    At the first mention of `Fokkers' the class giggled a little bit. The teacher interrupted the story to ask Mr. Jansson to explain to the class that a 'Fokker' was a particular type of plane flown by the German Air Force.
    Jansson replied, "Ya, dat is true, Miss, but dese Fokkers vas Messerschmidts".


(okay, so it was about WWII planes...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Giac
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:56 PM

Gareth -- thanks for the link, that's a wonderful site.

Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,DaveB.inVa
Date: 16 May 03 - 05:12 PM

My favorite fighter would be the Sopwith Camel. But my love has always been with the bombers. I love the Handley Page O/400 as well as the German Gotha bombers. The zeppelin bombers are pretty cool too with the special "height climber" zeppelins that could reach over 20000ft.

My favorite aircraft of all time is definatley the B-29 Superfortress of WWII. The earlier models were ok but the later B-29B's and the Silverplate Superfortresses were extremely technolocially advanced and could do over 400mph.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 May 03 - 05:18 PM

Damn! That site's not available at the moment! "...exceeded its allocated data transfer...".

I'm a little bit tempted by the Fokker Eindekker - one of the few monplanes in the war, & a frighteningly effective fighter in its day. I have to go for something Sopwith though (call it English bias if you like!).

I could go for the Sopwith 1-&-a-half strutter, if only for the name (why build it with 1 1/2 struts?!), the Snipe was probably the best fighter of the war, though it only just made it into service before the end. The Triplane was a damn fine aircraft too.

But, perhaps inevitably, I have to plump for the Sopwith Camel. A superb warplane, tricky to fly, but highly manoeuvrable, & one of the first in a fine British tradition of giving our planes a bit of character by giving them names, instead of boring old Mark/Type numbers!! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 May 03 - 05:49 PM

SE 5A, because my Dad loved it. For my generation it was the Spitfire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: The Walrus
Date: 16 May 03 - 06:15 PM

Great War period scout/fighter aircraft?
I'd have to nominat three of them.
The Sopwith Pup
The Sopwith Tripehound^H^H^H^H^H Triplane
and the 'Brisfit' - the Bristol Fighter (F2?)


Harvey,

Sorry mate, for WWII, it's got to be the Hurribird (Hawker Hurricane) for me, the 'plane that did the *real* work in the Battle of Britain.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 03 - 06:22 PM

My favorite book about all this is WARBIRDS: The Diary of the unkown Aviator. Go now to www.bookfinder.com and scarf up a used copy before someone beats you to it. The unknown aviator was a war buddy of Elliot White Springs, former CEO and owner of Spring Made Sheets, and Canadian ace Billy Bishop.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 May 03 - 06:55 PM

I love the Nieuport 17 and the SPAD S.XIII.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:25 PM

Anybody know of a site with plenty of colour pictures?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:33 PM

I've found this rather helpful:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aircraft/nations.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM

Wasn't aware you liked war planes and things used to kill people LH?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:59 PM

I think the POV is from a purely design and aerodynamically-related one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:03 PM

The Spad. Then the Camel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Gurney
Date: 16 May 03 - 10:49 PM

The Brisfit. But the French and Italian fighters were prettiest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:43 PM

LOL....As soon as I waw this thread, I knew it was you Hawk!!!

WWI is a really tough call. The airplane was still so much in it's infancy, barely at toddler status by the war's end. Plus you have to take the pilots into consideration. Although "Dicta Boelke" is still an adhered to philosophy today, it meant a lot more then. Planes like the Tripes were truly lacking in every crucial statistic but in the hands of Ricthofen of Werner Voss it was magnificent.

To pick one plane? Tough call.......All else being equal, the SPAD. But if I take the war as a whole and based on successes, I'd have to agree with Hawk on the Albatross series although the VA came along too late.

WWII has a lot more aircraft, but is a lot easier choice.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 03 - 12:55 AM

Hey, well, this is great! Better response than I expected. I was away all day playing music, and went to the Corner Coffeehouse for the evening...just got back.

Lots of good nominations here. The Curtiss Nancy is the only one that's new to me...nice plane. The others are all old friends. I also really like the Nieuport, Matt...a very pretty little plane. The big bombers like the Gotha and the Handley Page were remarkable looking machines...huge things.

GUEST, Jon - Hey, I knew I'd hear from someone who would have a comment like yours (chuckle...). Yes, those planes were used to kill people. So were the galleons of England and Spain...and they were beautiful things. I like them too. I like Crazy Horse...he and the other Lakota warriors were very adept at killing people. I find the accounts of Caesar's campaigns in Gaul fascinating, not to mention the accounts of the Napoleonic wars, etc....which also involved killing a whole lot of people. I think it is partly because I know a great deal about war that I am so much against it. Can you relate to that? I hope so.

People, in their efforts to deal effectively with reality and each other have created many extraordinary things and have tested the limits of human courage, love, patriotism, self-sacrifice, mercy, accomodation, and mutual understanding. That it makes for fascinating history and great stories is undeniable. That it should serve to teach us to work for peace and not war is, to me, absolutely obvious.

Now back to those magnificent men in their wood and fabric planes...

And Gareth, thanks for the great link!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: stevetheORC
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:16 AM

Tooooooooo many to realy choose from I use to love making them as a kid they seemed to have soul not like some of the later designes.
But lets say the Camel, albatros, pup, spad where proberly my favs. The paint work on some of them was fantastic.

De Orc


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:16 AM

Mo problem LH - sorry I was being more than a little stupid when I made my post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 May 03 - 09:51 AM

WWI

The Sopwith Pup, Eindecker III

Between the wars: The Old Reliable ( Curtis Jenny ), The Swallow.

WWII

Hawker Hurricaine

P-38, P-39, P-47

Martin Marauder, Aeronca Champ, Junkers 88

Lately: A-10 Warthog


Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 03 - 10:14 AM

Well Don, if you are allowing any era, I would go for the Vulcan Bomber. I couldn't believe its take of and the angle of ascent - it seemed to go upwards so steeply and slowly, I sort of half expected it to fall backwards down the line it was taking. And there was the noise - seemed like a case of sheer brute power. I've found a page with a section "Vulcan XH558, The Loved One by Michael Rondot" that expresses the feelings I had wacthing one of these at RAF Valley open day. Sorry the whole page here is so long.

Back to the topic of WW1, I'm afraid I don't know any of the planes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 03 - 11:53 AM

The Vulcan is a tremendously impressive-looking aircraft. It somehow gives the impression of an enormous animal, a mythical monster like the Roc. I don't generally like the post-WWII planes all that much, but the Vulcan is a standout among them.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: leprechaun
Date: 17 May 03 - 02:42 PM

Since boyhood I have always liked the Fokker Triplane, but I have to agree with Little Hawk on the Albatross, even if just from an aesthetic point of view.

An interesting model, though not exactly a fighter plane, was the Dehavilland.

Wasn't it a Spad that Georges Guynemer disappeared in?

Thread creep - I tend to agree that it was probably an Australian ground gunner who brought down the Red Baron, though the Canadian pilot, Captain A. Roy Brown, got the credit for many years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: RolyH
Date: 17 May 03 - 03:28 PM

I've always been a great fan of the Sopwith Triplane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:33 PM

The Sopwith Triplane was very neat, yes. A good climber, that one, and very manueuverable.

Leprechaun, I tend to agree on the Von Richthofen thing...I also figure it was the ground fire that got him. Guynemer mostly flew the Nieuport, but I can't remember which plane he was flying at the time of his death. It may have been a Spad.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,permakid
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:08 PM

Here's mine!

And a little song to go with it ...

THE BEAGLE HAS LANDED
by Michele Eatough
to the tune of "Hope Aerie"

The night moon glows; up Snoopy goes.
Here stands a doghouse no more.
    The mighty plane of a flying ace,
    The Sopwith Camel, stands in its place
To fight in the first World war.

        For the beagle has landed
        To drink root beer again.
        Now he'll fly, his country to defend.

Engines churn while machine guns burn;
The enemy falls from the sky.
    Shot down, the mighty flying ace,
    But another plane comes to fill the place.
The Red Baron swears he'll die.

        For the beagle is branded.
        Red Baron plans to rend
        Snoopy's Sopwith Camel, end to end.

In pale moonlight, the two planes fight;
Soon both are riddled with holes.
    But the Baron hits some vital spot,
    And the Sopwith Camel, smoking and hot,
Falls to the Earth below.

        And the beagle crash-landed.
        Let the Baron beware when
        Snoopy climbs his doghouse once again.

        Prophets and prisms and planets in motion,
        Pebbles I gather in front of Truth's Ocean.
        Fluxions that help me in my measurings --
        These are a few of my favorite things.

**********************************************************************


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:43 PM

Yes, it was Snoopy who made the Sopwith Camel into a famous plane again in the 1960's. The Red Baron would certainly have been surprised had he known this would happen...

If the Germans had had such a dog flying for them, it would undoubtedly have been a dachshund named "Schnaps" or something like that, and you would have had a real dogfight! Dachshunds are tenacious little devils.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:02 PM

Nice site, Matt R. Great thread. Keep 'em comin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Cluin
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:05 AM

Time for another song in this thread. This one about the post-war use of some of these planes. From James Keelaghan's Small Rebellions CD:


Princes of the Clouds
Tony Kaduck 1989 SOCAN

I am a flyer, one of those wind-in-the-wires boys
At the country fairs, you may have heard my name
And I have flown where only wind and wild men go
In the skies of France, or west across the plains
When war was done, I couldn't go back to the farm
There were Curtis Fours and Avros for a song
It seemed like single and free was the only way to be
I bought a good old craft and I named her Southern Star

We drew crowds; they called us "Princes of the Clouds"
In the railway towns across the Great Divide
We'd come in low, then stage a dogfight for a show
Then take the brave ones up for fifty cents a ride
Just Bob and me; we didn't need no company
And those farm girls made us welcome when we came
It seemed like single and free was the only way to be
And we swore those glory days would never end

We had it planned; we were gonna fly the Rio Grande
When I met her at a show near Calgary
Becky Ann, she could have had her any man
But I bought a ring; she said she'd marry me
Bob went on; he headed south toward the sun
I couldn't look him in the eye when the time had come
He just said, "Single and free, man, it's the only way to be
Southern Star got parked behind the old man's barn

Six years ago, Bob was flying mail in Mexico
When his plane went down; the wreck was never found
The thirties came, we went two years without the rain
Now I've a factory job, and room and board in town
Becky knew that the glory days were through
I got a letter from New Orleans the other day
And she said, "Single and free is the only way to be
Now, Southern Star, take me back and let me dream
Oh, Southern Star, I got lost along the way


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 18 May 03 - 02:47 AM

Hawk, I know the Curtis Jenny wasn't a fighter plane, but she was still beautiful! I even got to see one in the air at an Antique Airplane fly-in in Oregon several years ago. The WWI planes were squirrelly as the dickens to fly and land, but fascinating nonetheless.

Nice sites, everyone.

Lin


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Fossil
Date: 18 May 03 - 04:13 AM

To start with - I too love old aeroplanes and in my youth, now alas a few years away and getting further away fast, I made many many models - my favourite WW1 plane being the SE5A. Also something of a favourite with the pilots, I believe, being fast, well armed and very tough by the standards of the day.

Now to diverge from the subject. If any of the contributors to this thread ever visit Brussels, don't miss the Air Museum at the Cinquantenaire Park - it is stuffed with interesting old craft, including a Fokker Triplane, Sopwith Camel, Halberstadt, etc.... and lots of more modern stuff, too (WWII and several postwar jets). And in the UK, don't miss the museum at Old Warden, particularly if there's a flying day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 18 May 03 - 06:19 AM

"High Flight"

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
 


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:53 AM

And some info posted previously on John G. Magee, the author of "High Flight" Click Here

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:16 AM

The Curtis-JN III was the trainer of choice by the US Army and the Navy through out all of WWI and well after. They had gun mounts added and they trained with weapons on board. That the JN III (Jenny) didn't see combat in France doen't mean it wasn't used as a military air craft.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: X
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:11 PM

Right now it's my mandolin players Navy AT-SNJ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: X
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:36 PM

You can find photos of Mikes T-6/AT-SNJ at www.barnstormers.com on page 21 & page 22.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:41 PM

Cluin-

Thanks so much for posting "Princes of the Clouds." It really captures those bitter/sweet time of barnstorming in the 1920's.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:08 PM

It's a wonderful song lyric...I hope I get to hear the music now.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:28 PM

Neiuport 17, for its manueverablity;
The SE5A for its speed;
The S.P.A.D. XIII for its durability;
The Fokker Driedecker for its climbing ability;
The DeHaviland DH-2 for it's unusual bathtub apperearance;
The Fokker D-VII and the Sopwith Snipe for sheer performance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: leprechaun
Date: 18 May 03 - 04:03 PM

OK, Now I've figured it out, how Little Hawk became a radical. Not pot smoking or drugs or skateboarding, but inhaling all that glue from putting World War I model airplanes together in the eighth grade! Truly a mind-opening experience!

Great thread, Little Hawk. It sure brings back some junior high memories for me. I can't even remember what happened to all the planes I put together, back before being a nerd was fashionable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Cluin
Date: 18 May 03 - 04:57 PM

Hey I love that song too. I still sing it often. You hear it once and you're hooked. I'd highly recommend picking up that Keelaghan CD it's on (Small Rebellions); the whole thing is killer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Gareth
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:16 PM

At the risk of "thread drift" - never forget the "Stringbag" WW1 design in a WW2 enviroment. Click 'Ere

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:46 PM

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with a liking for all those string and canvas flying machines. The really beautiful streamlined Albatross and the Walfisch, or the pug-ugly Camel. Mind, I've always been intrigued by the oddities... That dainty little French "Parasol" scout and the massive great bomber built by Sikorsky for the Imperial Russian Air Force and used on the Eastern Front early in WW1, or the armoured Junkers used for ground attack work in 1918.

Between wars, how about all those weird and wonderful experimental things like the tail-less flying wings like the Westland Ptereodactyl. Ugly as sin and the ancestor of the Stealth and B2. (for a real bit of deja-vu, have a look at some of the Horten flying wing jets late in WW2)

The Me163 and the "Volksjager" for all-out weirdness in WW2, but for "conventional" aircraft in WW2, I admire the Westland Whirlwind, a sleek, fast, hard-hitting twin engined single-seat fighter with the promise to be one of the best aircraft of the war if engine production priorities hadn't been changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: leprechaun
Date: 18 May 03 - 08:56 PM

I like the story of Mr. Fokker himself finding the solution to shooting through a moving propellor. He came up with the idea of an interrupter gear on the machine gun, such that the gun wouldn't fire when the blade was in the way. He drew on a childhood memory of throwing stones between the moving blades of a windmill.

What about those poor buggers who had to go up in the earlier models with metal deflectors bolted to the propellors, and then pound in when they shot the propellor off?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:11 AM

Yeah, it all started with Roland Garros, the French madman who decided to armour his propellor blades with deflectors and shoot down Germans. He did shoot down two or three, using his almost suicidal method, and the Germans took note. Within a very short time, Anthony Fokker designed the interruptor gear and the Fokker Eindekkers almost swept the skies clean with it! Blame Roland Garros, I say...he indirectly cost the Allies a great many aircraft with his crazy idea. :-)

The British responded with the DH-2, a pusher plane which didn't need an interruptor gear, since the prop was in the back. It was an odd looking plane, but did well...until the Albatros fighters appeared.

Leprechaun, now you are getting much closer to the truth... :-) Yes, my way of having a "good time" (as Bill Cosby used to say) was not dope, not booze, not cigarettes, not drag racing, and not even sex (curses! rejected again!) but going to the local hobby shop, buying another Airfix, Revell, or Monogram kit, removing the shrink wrap (a delicious moment), and building a historical airplane. I must've built a couple of hundred of 'em. It used to take me a couple of days when I was a kid...now it takes me a month, cos I'm such a perfectionist...and man, have those kits gotten GOOD in the past few decades! The best ones come from Japan, courtesy of Tamiya and Hasegawa, mainly, but there are some beauties coming from China now too.

Sheer joy!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 03 - 04:38 AM

WW I Fighter - SE-5A, it just "looked" right. Something about an aircraft of that period that was so well behaved in the air that it would allow the pilot to change drum magazines for the Vickers-K gun mounted on the top of the upper wing during a dog-fight. The SE-5A had two machine guns one fixed firing through the propellor the second mounted to fire forward and upward (the angle could be changed by the pilot to suit his preference). In a fighter to fighter engagement, the K gun meant that to get out of any attack from and SE-5 you had to dive, unfortunately that meant that the SE-5 pilot still held the advantage of altitude. Against bombers the K gun meant that the fighter could attack in the bombers blind spot - astern and below.

WW II Fighters -
Hawker Hurricane - it did the job exactly when needed.

Spitfire - beautiful aircraft - except on take-off or landing, it transformerd through 24 different marks, more than doubling it's weight and enhanced performance, but still retained it's beauty - pilots loved it.

North-American P-51D Mustang - truly remarkable aircraft in terms of range and performance, British design, only came into it's own once powered with a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.

Focke-Wulf-190 - best German fighter aircraft of WW II, performance was astounding.

De Haviland Mosquito - fighter, fighter-bomber, bomber and passenger aircraft. Carried the same bomb load (4000 lbs) as a B-17 Flying Fortress. Absolutely beautiful aircraft, again the pilots who flew them loved them. One of the "passenger" types (completely unarmed) flying the "ball-bearing" run from Sweden was recorded by German air-intercept radar doing 600 knots on the run back to the UK - did that by climbing to maximum altitude over neutral Sweden then diving for home - the Germans had nothing to catch it.

Post WW II

Hawker Hunter
McDonald-Douglas F-4 Phantom
Mig-29
F-14 Tomcat
F-16.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: The Walrus
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:07 AM

Terribus,

Just a couple of points.

The 'wing-top'gun on the SE 5 was a Lewis with the 'infantry' cooling jacket removed and a 96 round magazine fitted, not a Vickers 'K' (the 'K' is a 1930s design I think).
The technique you describe of shooting into the 'blind spot'was a favourite of 'Billy' Bishop, apparently, he kept his lewis gun in the 'loading' position on the quadrant mount (pointing almost straight upward) dived under his opponent (who thought himself safe as most single seat 'planes fired forward) and stitched them from tail to engine (or t'other way).

WWII. Wasn't the P 51 'Mustang' an American design?

I'm glad someone mentioned the DH Whirlwind, I'd quite forgotten it(would I be right in thinking it was based on the DH 88 from the Britain-Australia race?).

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 03 - 08:22 AM

Thanks for the corrections Walrus,

On the P-51:

It's design specifications and requirements were driven entirely by the RAF in the form of an order from the British Purchasing Commission in 1940. Originally powered with an Allison engine, trials showed the aircraft to be best suited to aerial recon and ground attack, as it's performance dropped off dramatically above 12,000ft.

The British modified the airframes of two Allison engined Mustangs to mount Rolls-Royce Merlin engines. Combined with the aircraft's low drag airframe and laminar flow wings, the new engine provided an aircraft with truly staggering, at the time, top end speed.

One saying coined during WW II that describes the Mustang well:

"The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin"

P51s had a staggering range upwards of 2,000 miles (full operational distance for most bombers) when fitted with drop-tanks. I have the pilots notes for the type including some quirks, they used to fly bomber escort for American day-light raids over Germany. Initially they would use the fuel in the external tanks first. If engaged early in the mission, these tanks had to be jettisoned. The main fuel tank was in the fuselage just behind the pilot, for a short period around the time when the tank was two-thirds full, the aircraft became very difficult to trim and awkward to handle in combat. This effect apparently did not last long but, in the pilots words was "unsettling".

Both the Whirlwind and the Mosquito were based on the DH88 design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:26 AM

The Whirlwind is an interesting one, produced by Westland, but not in very great numbers. I'm still hoping Tamiya will do a 1/48 kit of it at some point.

The Me-262 deserves mention here, since people are getting into WWII planes. It's a gorgeous looking airframe, and was far and away the most advanced fighter of that war.

Another interesting and rare bird is the Kyushu Shinden, a Japanese fighter with an immense six-bladed pusher propellor and a canard design (tail at the front, wings at the back). It would have made a perfect configuration for a jet engine, but they used a conventional radial engine instead, and it was very fast and heavily armed (four 30 mm cannon in the nose, like the Me-262).

And my favourite Japanese fighter to fly: The Ki-84 Hayate (Frank)...just a superb fighter in every way.

Lockheed's P-38 Lightning is neat too...totally unique in appearance and very effective.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:59 AM

Leprechaun - that Dehavilland is a de Havilland, and the company made a number of different models that made it into squadron service. The fighers were the DH2 - a pusher biplane single seater that helped overcome the Fokker Menace (Eindekkers) and the DH5 was a tractor biplane with a curious backward stagger. And I wouldn't really believe anything that Mr Fokker said either. A notorious self-publicist and truth stretcher!

So my favourite WW1 plane? Siemens-Schuckert DIV for a fighter, but for real fun check out the German R-planes like the Staakens. The Putnam book 'The German Giants' (ISBN 0 85177 812 7) gives full details of design and operation.

The Whirlwind was a Westland design (WEW Petter) and I don't think it was based on the DH Comet, although it looked similar. It did 360mph, entered squdron service in June 1940 and had four 20mm cannon. But the Rolls Royce Peregrine engines were a bit suspect so production finished in 1942. A later Petter design, the Welkin, was designed to operate up to 44,000ft, but the German high altitude bombers and reccy 'planes never materialsed so they were never issued to a squadron.

The P51 was a North American design (Raymond Rice and Edgar Schuel) which came about when the company said they could produce a new 'plane rather than the Curtiss Hawk 81A-1 (P40 Warhawk) us Brits had asked them to make for us. From order to prototype in 120 days!

Favourites for WW2? It's got to be the 'wooden wonder' the de Havilland Mosquito - unarmed fast bomber, photo reconnaissance, night fighter, day fighter, maritime strike, even a carrier-based torpedo reconnaissance just after the war. Along with the Ju88 it did everything, but was a later design than the Junkers, and better-looking as well. But for pure looks only - the Martin-Baker MB5.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: The Walrus
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:38 PM

On the P-51 (sorry, creeping the thread back to WWII), there is a story, (probably apocraphal)about the external fuel tanks, apparently they were made of a 'paper-derived' composite (IIRC a dense, heavy, resin filled, cardboard like material, suitably proofed, with raw rubber interlining and aluminium foil coatings).
The story goes that before they went into service an enquiry went 'up the line' to the technical branch (or whatever it's called)of the USAAF as to the feasibility of these tanks being offered.
Such were the delays caused by distance, burocracy and 'farming out' of the work, that the fighters had been using these 'war economy' tanks for some months before a message came back saying that they wouldn't work.

I can't vouch for the truth, but I always thought it a decent tale.

Regard

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:05 PM

The P-51 to me was the top fighter of the war (WWII). I love a lot of others and it's hard to pick it over some great designs such as the Spit and the FW190, but from any standpoint of performance to do the job of a fighter, it did so many things well, if not the best, that any other choice requires far more justification.

It's final variation was in fact a new design but was known as the Twin Mustang...or the F-82 and was the last prop driven fighter ordered in quantity by the USAF.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:27 PM

So how many of you hung your models on your bedroom ceilings? My brother and I had this incredible dog fight going on, although the planes did tend to get dusty or festooned with spider webs after a few years, kind of ghostly when I think back on it.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 19 May 03 - 10:20 PM

When I was a kid I always thought the SE-5A was sexy but for best all-around use learned tha Pfalz series was best. Anthony Fokker's memoirs say the D-VII was a hurry-up job to meet absurd specs. He didn't think anyone could fly it. But it was breathtaking in action.

In terms of WWII, ah, if the P-40 had ever been supercharged as designed! Best was the Skunkworks P-38 but it was huge! Probably the later Corsair fulfilled mot necessary all-around tasks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Cluin
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:19 PM

I did that as a kid, Charley. I had about a dozen of `em up there. I remember a Messerschmidt, a Sopwith Camel, a Fokker Triplane, a Lockheed P-38, a P-51 Mustang...

My largest was a big B-17 "Flying Fortress" about 14" long. It was so heavy that the thumbtacks would never hold it up and it kept dropping down to the carpet below every few weeks or so. Every time I hung it up again, there would be a piece missing.

Talk about surreal looking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:13 AM

Once I got past the amateur stage I mostly built them with the landing gear down, and placed them on shelves or in cabinets, preferably behind glass...because of the dust problem. At this point I have on display a Japanese type 99 Val, a Zero 52b, and a Shinden...a Hellcat...a Bf-109G and an Arado 234, nicely free of dust, plus a few tanks in 1/35 scale.

Models that are hung from ceilings get incredibly dusty pretty fast.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:38 AM

I spent a few years in my thirties designing and flying RC types. The heavy wing loading of military fighters made for large engines. Much more fun were tiny engine, big wings for VTOL and flight time. The Storch was a beautiful plane followed by the Pilatus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: stevetheORC
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:10 AM

My largest was a wellington bomber finished with my dads help, it was just to big for me to hold:-) Planes hanging off the celing, tanks and airfix soldiers on the shelfs (fort's n soldiers on the floor in the attic along with scaletrix racing setup:-)))))

De Orc


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:50 AM

One of the saddest memories has to be the large paper and stick model my brother had just finished of a Fokker D-VII. The new paint job wasn't drying fast enough so he held it over our coal stove and...;~(

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:30 AM

Doug - The P-40 always had a supercharger, in its original Allison engined version, and the later Merlin (P-40F) form. The main problem with the P-40 were its performance at altitude (being designed more for ground attack and coastal defence). No-one supposed the USA would need to defend against high-altitude attack. US fighter design was a little behind European at that time (but they did catch up fast!), and there was no armour protection and no self-sealing fuel tanks. The original design had just two machine guns (later four, then six).

In British and Commonwealth service it performed very well as a ground attack aicraft in North Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,irish sergeant
Date: 20 May 03 - 02:47 PM

Charlie: I still have an abreviated collection catching cobwebs in the basement. On to the topic as stated.
My favorite World War One Aircraft? The SpadXIII and the Neiuport 17 for the French (ANd Americans) The Vickers Gunbus, Spowith Camel and SE5 for the British and the Fokker Eindecker, Albatross DVII for the Germans AS far as fighters go Bombers? Handley-Page 400 and the CAproni series from Italy.
World War Two: British: Spitfire, Hawker Hurricane (The true hero of the BAttle of Britain) DeHaviland Mosquito, AVRO LAncaster and the Fairey Swordfish (The glorious "String bag" of Royal Navy fame) German: Bf-109, Focke-Wulf 190, Dornier DO-17 Messerschmidt ME-262 UNited States; P-51 Mustang, F4U-1 Corsair, B-17, P-40 Japan A6M Type 0, Emily flying boat, VAl dive bomber and strangely the Oka rocket powerd suicide bomber France: The Detowaine 240 which got little press and gets even less now but was one of France's best aircraft. Post WW2: The A-7 Corsair, Nimrod, F-4 Phantom, A-4 Skyhawk, P-3 Orion, the P2V Neptune, Dassault Mirage, IAI Kfir the Mig 17 anf the F-14 Tomcat.(To be honest, I worked on some of these while in the NAvy. Kindest regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:15 PM

Hey, Neil, that's the Dewoitine 520, I think. It was a beautiful fighter, quite comparable to the Spitfire and the Bf-109. Tamiya has a superb 1/48 kit of it out, and those French colors are really something to see.

The Italians had some lovely planes too. Their C.R.42 was probably the best biplane fighter of them all (debatable), and the Macchi 202/205 series were gorgeous, as were the Fiat G.55's, all built around the German Daimler Benz engine that powered the Messerschmitt fighters as well.

Those Italian camouflage schemes are hell to airbrush, though!

Then you've got some very stylish Russian fighters...like the Mig-3, Yak-3 to Yak 9 series, and the La-5N and La-7. They were very good airplanes. Dig those patriotic slogans. Amazing how the Germans succeeded in turning most of the Russian people into willing and determined soldiers for that cold-blooded murderer, Joe Stalin...and it took them less than a year to do it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:23 PM

Thanks for mentioning the Soviet WW2 fighters, LH. Great 'planes, excellent performance. Some good designers over there. And the Pe2, the Russian Mosquito. And the Stormaviks, very efficient.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: leprechaun
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:37 PM

So which one had the fuselage above the lower wing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Greycap
Date: 21 May 03 - 08:21 AM

The Sopwith Dolphin always did it for me


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:32 PM

You've got me stumped with that question, leprechaun. Nice going. How far above?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:03 PM

Didn't mean to neglect our Russian friends nor the Italians. The Stormovik was quite possibly the best ground assault aircraft of the second world war And Little HAwk thank you for the correction . (Proves I should check my books before opening my mouth.) I'm afraid I can't help with the question unless you tell me what war. The Italians also fielded a hybrid aircraft that was sort of a combination between reciprocating and jet engine but the model erscapes me at present I also thought the Dornier 335 "Arrow" was neat The tandem engine design was quite unique. Kindest regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:04 AM

Yeah, the Do335 is an old favourite of mine. Years ago there were some 1/72 scale models of it by Lindberg (not bad...). Then Monogram did a beauty in 1/48. Then Tamiya finally did it in several versions, and you can't get better than that.

The Germans called it "the anteater", and it's not hard to see why when you look at it from the side. It's weird looking, but great looking at the same time.

And the Sturmovik? Accurate Miniatures finally did the definitive version(s) of that one in 1/48 to absolute perfection. It's amazing how good models are now.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:44 AM

leprechaun,

The Bristol Fighter F2B's fuselage was above the lower wing, so that is one possible answer to your question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: leprechaun
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:36 PM

Yep, that was it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:47 AM

Isn't the FB2 the one the pilkots called the "Brisfit"? By the way, the Owl's Head Transportation museum in Owl's Head, Maine has a lovely operational Bristol Gun bus. Or at leaast it was when Peggy and I Honeymooned there ten years ago. Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 03 - 12:33 PM

Now just think if they'd ever succeeded in getting Ornithopters (planes with wings that flapped like a bird's wings) operational...!

Then we'd really have some weird planes to look at and build models of. Imagine trying to sight in on a target from one of those... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 May 03 - 03:08 PM

The Bristol Fighter was the Brisfit (designation F.2A or F.2B). It served on well after WW1, dropping bombs on Iraquis (some things never change).

Neil - that would be a Vickers Gun-Bus (FB5).

You get get a wide range of injection-moulded kits of WW1 aircraft from smaller manufacturers over here in the UK, and presumably elsewhere in the world. There are also vacuum moulded kits but these are quite a bit harder to build.

LH - the nearest thing to an ornithopter would be one of the German 'Taube' monoplanes, wing-warpers with a very bird-like wing. I'm sure you could find a kit for one somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Phot
Date: 26 May 03 - 04:29 PM

Sorry I'm not to hot on WW1 fighters, but Gareth's comment about the Swordfish got me going.

Call me lucky, but one of the great things about working at RNAS Yeovilton, or HMS Heron, if you prefer, is I get to see them almost every day during the show circut season,....aint life a bitch!

But not just the Swordfish, the Fairey Firefly is up and about at the moment, and there isnt much better than listening to a Griffon V12 at max chat to provide the background music at lunchtime.

Wiht a bit of luck the Sea Fury should be back on the circuit next year, and also the Mk1 Swordfish, after its main spar refurb. If I get any more info on whats happening I'll let you all know.

But for all time speed machine, it has to be the English Electric Lightning.......100% British Beef!!

Cheers all Chris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: GUEST,Snoopy
Date: 26 May 03 - 07:35 PM

Curse you Red Baron


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: The Walrus
Date: 26 May 03 - 08:54 PM

Phot,

You have a 'stringbag', Firefly AND a Sea Fury on your doorstep?

I've just gone off you in a major manner....
muutermutterluckybuggermutter

The best I can do is occasionally acting as part of the ground-crew for a flight of (2/3 scale) replica SE5s.

If you want to see some strange expressions, watch the faces of some of the other users of the Airfield in the morning at the Biggin Hill show when they see a number of 'First World War' aircraft being handled out of the hanger by a mob in First War uniform -it's quite amusing to watch the unsuspecting...

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 03 - 11:25 PM

The Czech model company Eduard has done a series of beautiful WWI airplane kits in 1/48, but I'm not sure if they've covered the Taube yet. It was a lovely looking plane.

I'd like to pass on a word from the Red Baron...

"Ja, Schnoopy! Vell, you can curse all you vant, but I am not zo impressed. Zat silly plane/doghaus you are tryink to fly does not even haff vings! Und you are un kleines hundt...too schmall for flyink viss ze experten, I am sinking (thinking). Vy don't you chust go und raid ze butcher shop instead und haff a nice weiner or bludwurst or zwei und forged aboud it. I sink you are barkink up ze wrong tree, mein kleines hundt."

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 03 - 03:22 AM

Hi Phot,

Do they still run the lottery for "joy-rides" in the Stringbag down at Heron? They used to have one when I was down there - always heavily over subscribed.

Allen D,

Your memories of watching WW I "dog-fights" over the Wicklow mountains brought back some memories for me. First Irish International Airshow at Rathfarnum, they had just filming "Blue Max" and "Darlin' Lily" - all the aircraft were there and staged this incredible show. I talked to the pilot of the Fokker tri-plane and asked him what it was like to fly. He said it was amazing in the air but an absolute bastard to land, you literally had to fly it onto the ground. It was a beautiful summer if memory serves me correctly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Phot
Date: 27 May 03 - 03:38 AM

Walrus, nothing wrong with being ground crew, I did it for 16 years in the RAF and the RN, trust me, if flying was difficult, the ground crew would do it!

It was great being a rigger, [Airframes technichan] give me a hammer, a GS screwdriver, and an adjustable spanner and I'll fix anything!

Terribus, not anymore, by I'm up for an air to air photo shoot with the Stringbag and a pair of Lynx next week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 03 - 12:19 PM

The Fokker Triplane is a strange little bird, maneuverable as hell but too dang slow in my opinion. I've flown it in some pretty good simulations. My favourite to fly remains the Fokker DVII. That was one amazing airplane for its time.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:00 PM

Possibly the best fighter 'plane of WW1, faster and more manoeuverable than anything else was the ... wait for it ... Martinsyde F4 Buzzard. Yes I knew you would be shocked. But Mr Trenchard didn't seem to like it much, so the RAF got the Sopwith Snipe instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 27 May 03 - 04:12 PM

As I understand it, the Fokkeer DR I (Triplane) Had a nasty little habit in that the top wing had a tendency to peel off in high speed dives. The DVII was a far superior aircraft according to a couple of old German pilots Dad knew back in the sixties.
   Phot: I was an aircraft engine mechanic in the US Navy. It was a hell of a lot of fun and I still could handle my own witih a hammer and a screwdriver if push came to shove. Have a great night all, Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 03 - 06:07 PM

Ah, well, that's the whole idea behind the 3 wings on the Tripe, Lep. You lose the top one...you've still got 2 left to nurse the little Fokker down with and make a safe landing... :-)

(Not!)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Ian Darby
Date: 27 May 03 - 08:26 PM

Wasn't the 'Stringbag' the Fairey Swordfish?

I built the Airfix model at a very early age and it was a sod to put together.

I liked the Albatross and the Sopwith Camel as well, and still get transported back every time I get a whiff of glue....


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 03 - 08:54 PM

Yup, the Stringbag was the Faery Swordfish of Britain's WWII Fleet Air Arm. It was the most antiquated torpedo bomber in service anywhere, but it did surprisingly well...partly because of the excellent British aircrews, partly because the opposition (the Germans and Italians) had no aircraft carriers in service. The Japanese would have massacred the Swordfish.

The Airfix model of it in 1/72 was a pretty horrible little kit by today's standards. Artiplast/Smer also did a kit in 1/48 that was quite primitive. A few years back Tamiya finally did a gorgeous kit in 1/48 that costs about as much as a fairly cheap guitar might have a few decades ago! It's worth it if you really want to build a Swordfish.

The Swordfish were so slow that German Focke-Wulf fighters in 1942 lowered not only their flaps but their landing gear (!) in order to slow down enough to make a reasonable firing pass from behind on them. This was during the famed "Channel Dash of the German ships Scharnhorst (my old favourite), Gneisenau, and Prinz Eugen from France back to Germany by way of the English Channel....an unexpected move that was risky, but succeeded. The FW-190's shot those poor Swordfish down like clay pigeons.

Yet the humble Swordfish scored tremendous victories against Germany and Italy, dooming the Bismark and sinking several Italian battleships and many smaller vessels. It was effective and reliable, even if it was as slow as a turtle going uphill on a cold day.

The world's finest torpedo bomber in 1941-42 was the Japanese Nakajima Kate, soon to be surpassed by the American TBF Avenger, which was itself surpassed (debatably) by the Japanese Nakajima Tenzan (Jill) and most definitely by the Japanese Ryusei (Grace), a really impressive airplane in every way...but there weren't many of them put into service.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 03:37 AM

LH,

There was reason for the Swordfish's success against the Bismark. Bismark's A.A. guns or more correctly their fire control systems were designed to engage targets attacking at a minimum speed of 115 knots. When the Swordfish attacked Bismark their attack speed due to weather conditions was 85 knots, the pilots were surprised that the intense A.A. flung up at them all seemed to burst in front of their aircraft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:34 PM

Isn't it ironical that being outmoded can sometimes be an asset? The fact that the German flak was falling short was probably not very evident to the German gunners either. It wouldn't have been easy to see the discrepancy from where they were sitting.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:49 PM

While we're on about the Swordfish, we ought to recognise that one of the major factors over its long service was that it became a very successful anti-submarine aircraft. It carried rockets to deal with subs on the surface and could land back on a heaving escort carrier deck in a North Atlantic gale. Just imagine the bravery of the guys who did that job!

And its original designation? TSR1.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:52 PM

Yup, and the guys in the subs had to be pretty brave too. I'd hate to have been on either side in that conflict.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Ian Darby
Date: 29 May 03 - 08:44 PM

I built every 'plane in the Airfix range when I was a kid, even the civil aircraft. If only I'd saved the things in the original packaging.

I also had most of the Marvel comics from issue one, X Men, Iron Man, The Rawhide Kid, Spiderman, Fantastic Four, etc.

Sorry, I've digressed and await my punishment....

P.S. I could be retired now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 03 - 09:05 AM

Here's something interesting -- a WWI precursor of the V-1.

(The USAF Museum at Wright Patterson AFB has a wonderful collection of WWI and other aircraft, as does the Smithsonian - if you get to Washington DC, try to wrangle a visit to the Silver Hill facility.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:27 AM

I built just about every Airfix kit too. Some were quite good, others were dreadful. Most of them are still available today, but in different packaging. If you had them in the original packaging in mint condition they would be worth a fair bit to some people.

Other companies back then were Frog (Airlines), Hawk, Pyro, Revell, Monogram, Lindberg Line, AMT, and Aurora, plus a couple of others I can't recall at the moment. About half of them are still with us. Revell and Monogram have combined into one company. Pyro mutated into Life-Like, I think. AMT made cars back then, but now makes everything.

In the meantime the Japanese and Koreans and Chinese have pretty well taken over. Tamiya and Hasegawa rule when it comes to airplanes.

There is a French model company too...it's called Heller. From them you can get French vehicles that no one else models.

And then there's Italeri from Italy...quite good.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:11 PM

Speaking of Airfix models, I had a shock in my local newsagent recently, they've started selling model kits and there was one on sale,1/72 Supermarne Spitfire which came with a couple of pots of paint and a brush (presumably with glue) and I'm sure the box carried the 'Airfix' logo (I'd thought they'd go out of business years back), the price was in the £3-6 range - I remember that kit (hopefully from a different set of moulds) for 2/- (10p for the younger Brits), sold in a plastic bag.
How things change.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 03 - 04:05 PM

Yeah, the price of a model kit has gone up by about 2400% or more since the late 60's. The quality has gone way up too, on the whole, but still...

Airfix is still very much in business, and doing the odd new release from time to time, as well as selling all the old stuff in new boxes. Their latest boxtop art is not very good.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: HuwG
Date: 31 May 03 - 10:08 AM

As a final note on the poem, "High Flight" (see MGrath of Altcar's post, here, someone once faxed a copy to the Federal Aviation Authority, who immediately issued the following directives:


1. Pilots must ensure that all surly bonds of Earth have been slipped entirely before aircraft taxi or flight is attempted.
2. During periods of severe sky dancing, crew and passengers must keep seatbelts fastened. Crew should wear shoulderbelts as provided.
3. Sunward climbs must not exceed the maximum permitted aircraft ceiling.
4. Passenger aircraft are prohibited from joining the tumbling mirth.
5. Pilots flying through sun-split clouds under VFR conditions must comply with all applicable minimum clearances.
6. Commercial operators are prohibited from performing a hundred things you've not dreamed of.
7. Wheeling, soaring, and swinging will not be attempted except in aircraft rated for such activities and within utility class weight limits.
8. Be advised that sunlit silence will occur only when a major engine malfunction has occurred.
9. "Hov'ring there" will constitute a highly reliable signal that a flight emergency is imminent.
10. Forecasts of shouting winds are available from the local FSS. Encounters with unexpected shouting winds should be reported by pilots.
11. Pilots flinging eager craft through footless halls of air are reminded that they alone are responsible for maintaining separation from other eager craft.
12. Should any crew member or passenger experience delirium while in the burning blue, submit an irregularity report upon flight termination.
13. Windswept heights will be topped by a minimum of 1,000 feet to maintain VFR minimum separations.
14. Aircraft engine ingestion of, or impact with, larks or eagles, even where such birds never flew, should be reported to the FAA and the appropriate aircraft maintenance facility.
15. Aircraft operating in the high untresspassed sanctity of space must remain in IFR flight regardless of meteorological conditions and visibility.
16. Pilots and passengers are reminded that opening doors or windows in order to touch the face of God may result in loss of cabin pressure.




This gem, and some other homourous quotes on flying can be found at www.skygod.com.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Phot
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:23 AM

Latest from the far side of the airfield, or the RN Historic Flight.

The Mk1, Respar, almost complete, may be on the circuit this year.

The Mk2, undergoing Xray on main spars, watch this space.

Sea Fury, Engine rebuild complete, should be on the circuit this year, at least on the static display at the RNAS Yeovilton Air Show.

Sea Hawk, after a long overhaul, this pretty little jet should be back on the circuit this year, work by British Aerospace, and The RNHF, have made this restoration an absoulte belter.

After Easter leave I'll have a word with the boss of RNHF and try and let you know whats happening.

Wassail
Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: el ted
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:28 AM

Post no 100. I thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: mg
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

I haven't had time to read the thread, but when I lived in Vancouver, WA, near the field near Vancouver Barracks..I often would have biplanes zooming above me when they gathered the old planes together...I want to say Wright field..maybe not. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM

Anyone going to Sun & Fun air show in Lakeland Florida in a couple weeks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:59 PM

Here's an interesting pre-WWII plane...the Curtiss Shrike. Very neat looking.

For one of the gangliest, clumsiest-looking designs of all time I nominate the Faery Barracuda! Utterly hideous. The Germans must've got fits when they saw a swarm of those descending on the Tirpitz.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: sledge
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:26 AM

For looks only, not sure how good it really was, the Roland IIc, Walfish, quite sleek, another of those early Airfix memories.

Sledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Phot
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:40 AM

Dornier Do-X. Now that is really ugly! And a year to fly round the world! So much for "Its faster by air".

But I would'nt say no to a Super Connie!

Wassail! Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Yeah, the Roland was a very neat little plane, and a pretty good one. I still like the Albatros fighters the best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM

This poem by Loius MacNiece started a sort of urbanish legend among those who did not know his life story.   The legend had it that this poem was written by an Allied Fighter pilot five weeks before he was killed in combat.   (Seems to make the poem somewhat more poignant, if that was ever necessary).   He did, in fact, live until 1963 and (as far as is recorded) never flew in a fighter aircraft in his life.

    The sunlight in the garden hardens and grows cold
    We cannot cage the moment in its nets of gold
    When all is told, we cannot beg for pardon

    Our freedom as free lances advances to its end
    The earth compels upon it, Bird and sonnet descend
    And soon my friend, there will be no time for dances

    The sky was good for flying defying the church bells
    And every iron siren and what it foretells
    The earth compels, We are dying, Egypt, dying

    And unable to beg for pardon, hardened in heart anew
    But grateful to have sat under thunder and lightning with you
    And grateful too, for sunlight in the garden.

(I quote from a long time ago with a memory that is perhaps flawed, the original words may not be 100% identical to those above, but they are pretty close).

Oh - and for what is worth - the talk in the RAF Messes in the early sixties was that the Sopwith Camel was the British pilot's favorite aircraft of world war 1, despite its tendency to kill novice pilots)


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

That's a lousy poem Eagle! (Sorry!) But you're right about the Camel. The reason it was a favourite was because it was highly maneouvrable... And the reason it was often lethal to novices was because it was unstable! Just look at the modern Eurofighter - it is is specifically designed to be unstable & therefore maneouvrable. The two go together, hence the virutes & faults of the Camel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

LH - more about the Fairy Barracuda. It was a replacement for the Fairy Albacore, which was a replacement for the Fairy Swordfish. The Swordfish was still serving at the end of the war (albeit in the anti-submarine role it wasn't really designed for). There were 5 other competing designs, though it seems that Fairy Aviation got the job because the other companies' designs were 'too advanced' or they with busy with other work. Then the engine is was originally going to have (the Rolls-Royce Boreas or Exe) was cancelled which led to a bit of redesign. Then development was put on hold because of the war, and production of fighter aircraft took precedence.

One of the 'ugly' parts of the design was the Youngman flaps, which doubled as dive-breaks. But these interferred with original tailplane, so the Barra ended up with an ugly high tailplane.

Because of the high-wing design the undercarriage needed to avoid having overlong legs up to the wings or a short track if the wheels went into the fuselage. The final design, using elements of both was ingenious, effective but ugly.

The Barra carried its weapons on the outside, which was ugly, and by the time a comprehensive radar fit had been added later in the war the ugliness was complete.

Pilots trained on the biplane Albacore and Swordfish found the Barra, overweight, underpowered and without an autopilot, difficult and tiring to fly. By the time it came into service in early 1943 there were no targets for torpedo attack, its primary role. But it did put paid to the Tirpitz, which never operated again after damage from Barracuda strikes. And it added minelaying and anti-submarine work to its topedo and dive-bomb roles.

Incidentally, many Barracudas were built locally to me in Hull, at Blackburn Aviation in Brough (about 15 miles away). And as this is a music site, I'll include a wartime song about the Barracuda.

I want a Barracuda I can call my own,
A plane the RAF can never steal;
And all those whiskered P/O Prunes
With their Mossies and Typhoons
Will have to fly in aircraft that are real.
As through the evening sky we slowly stagger;
A-waiting for the next poor chap to die;
I'd rather have a Barra I can call my own
Than have an aircraft that can really fly!

(Attributed to Number 9 Naval Torpedo-Bomber-Reconnaissance Wing; sung to the popular wartime ditty "Paper Doll")


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Subject: RE: BS: Favourite World War 1 Fighter Plane
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:25 AM

LOL! Great stuff, Les. Thanks for that. There is a new kit of the Barracuda out by Special Hobby from Czechoslovakia. It's pricy, and probably quite good. I was looking at it today, and thought...naw...I'll never build the bastard, it's just too damned ugly! I wondered why they put the tailplanes up so high...

Really, if you sat down and TRIED to design a plane as ugly as possible you could hardly beat the Barracuda, although some of the French bombers of the 30's actually did look even worse. The Gallic ability to construct hideous-looking aircraft has never been bested, not even by the Brits!

Curiously enough, though, both nations have also built some truly beautiful looking aircraft.

- LH


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