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BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?

Beccy 13 May 03 - 02:14 PM
catspaw49 13 May 03 - 02:21 PM
jeffp 13 May 03 - 02:27 PM
wysiwyg 13 May 03 - 02:55 PM
NicoleC 13 May 03 - 02:56 PM
katlaughing 13 May 03 - 03:24 PM
jeffp 13 May 03 - 03:43 PM
Beccy 13 May 03 - 03:48 PM
jeffp 13 May 03 - 03:56 PM
catspaw49 13 May 03 - 04:43 PM
NicoleC 13 May 03 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 13 May 03 - 05:24 PM
Liz the Squeak 13 May 03 - 05:30 PM
Rick Fielding 13 May 03 - 06:37 PM
Beccy 13 May 03 - 06:58 PM
katlaughing 13 May 03 - 07:02 PM
Cluin 14 May 03 - 01:18 AM
Cluin 14 May 03 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Claymore 14 May 03 - 04:19 PM
Bill D 14 May 03 - 04:45 PM
mg 14 May 03 - 04:53 PM
PoppaGator 14 May 03 - 05:01 PM
DougR 14 May 03 - 05:17 PM
Dahlin 15 May 03 - 09:27 AM
Dahlin 15 May 03 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Ron Olesko 15 May 03 - 09:58 AM
katlaughing 15 May 03 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Ron Olesko 15 May 03 - 11:34 AM
wilco 15 May 03 - 11:56 AM
katlaughing 15 May 03 - 01:56 PM
mg 15 May 03 - 03:17 PM
Forum Lurker 15 May 03 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Wordless Woman 15 May 03 - 04:31 PM
NicoleC 15 May 03 - 04:44 PM
wysiwyg 15 May 03 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,amergin 15 May 03 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Ron Olesko 15 May 03 - 05:21 PM
katlaughing 15 May 03 - 05:47 PM
NicoleC 15 May 03 - 06:40 PM
Cluin 15 May 03 - 09:09 PM
wysiwyg 15 May 03 - 10:05 PM
NicoleC 15 May 03 - 11:16 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 May 03 - 11:29 PM
Cluin 16 May 03 - 01:21 AM
GUEST,Ron Olesko 16 May 03 - 09:12 AM
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Subject: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Beccy
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:14 PM

I'm sure most of you have heard the news story about the girls in Illinois who hazed a bunch of junior girls by beating them, smearing human excrement, paint, vinegar, tabasco, etc... making them eat fish guts, and more sending 5 of the girls to the hospital.

What do you think should happen to the girls who performed the hazing ritual?
What about the beer keg that was present. Folks are saying that some of the girls parents provided the keg. If this is proven, what should happen to those parents?

Do you think this was criminal or all in good fun or a combination of the two?

Personally? I think that it may have started with good intentions but became a mob mentality thing and the girls who did the beatings should be held liable. I think that disallowing their participation in graduation ceremonies would certainly be appropriate on th part of the school. I think that in the more eggregious cases that expulsion might even be appropriate. I also think that some serious community service sentences and maybe 1 or 2 nights in jail might be appropriate. Juvenile records are so often expunged.

I'd like to hear what you all think. Here's a link to an article about the incident.

Hazing in Illinois


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:21 PM

I've followed that one some and I think you may be right.....a bad idea that got even worse. They are all responsible.

But do you ever follow a case that makes you feel like a ghoul for being so fascinated? I love good crime stories and series like the "Law and Order" group. I was just thinking of that just now as I've been following another story, good fodder for a "Law and Order" episode. But I still feel kinda' ghoulish when I do this.....can't help it.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: jeffp
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:27 PM

Expulsion, assault charges, agg assault or mayhem for the ringleaders.
Contributing for the parents who supplied the keg.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:55 PM

My hometown. Went to GBN.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:56 PM

Ditto for what JeffP said. This is completely criminal behavior. Since they are minors and no one is dead or apparently very seriously injured, they will probably not be tried as adults and probably won't have a criminal record.

But some very thorough counseling and anger management therapy is in order, plus enough punishment to get the girls involved to take their culpibility for the incident seriously.

I have no problems with parents (if they choose to) allowing their children to drink at home, in private; the kids are supervised that way and can't go out and harm others while they learn to cope with the effects alcohol. But providing a keg for a group of minors in public?! Could be a indicator of why the kids involved were so irresponsible; they aren't learning it at home. If true, the parent(s) (or the adult who purchased the keg) involved should face criminal charges for knowingly supply minors with alcohol.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:24 PM

I agree with Jeff and Nicole. I thought some of them had already been expelled? I don't think it should be a matter for the school district; they need to be charged by law.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: jeffp
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:43 PM

Actually, at least one of the senior girls (the attackers) is 18. She is suing the school system to prevent her from missing the prom and graduation. In my opinion, she is worrying about the wrong thing. As an adult, she will be facing criminal charges that could really be on her "permanent record."


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Beccy
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:48 PM

That little girl who's suing needs to be taken down a few pegs. How could her parents allow her to sue the school?
"Gee, Susie... I think you're right. My little girl should NEVER have to miss a chance to wear an expensive dress, have her hair done, get a corsage, and get a bunch of attention. I think suing that mean old school district is a great idea." Ugh.

It's like my Mom always says, "The prisons are full of *innocent* babies.

Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: jeffp
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:56 PM

The most disgusting thing I saw in relation to this was the reaction of one of their classmates. She said, "I don't see why it's such a big deal. So somebody got their head split open. It's not like she's dead or anything." I just wanted to reach right through my TV and throttle the little shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 03 - 04:43 PM

Saw it too.....Had the same reaction Jeff! I think it's important that EVERYONE gets something for doing this. Certainly the ringleaders deserve more, but the "sheep" need taught the lesson of having the guts to go against the mob.

Spaw

(Anyone else following the Katie Autry murder in Kentucky?)


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 May 03 - 05:02 PM

If that 18 year old displays the same utter lack of remorse and incomprehension that what she did was VERY wrong, I suspect a jury will put her away for at least a year or two.

What a lovely graduation present that will be.

The apparent inability for the kids involved to understand the concept of how it might be wrong to perpetrate violence against another human is very scary. It seems to go beyond the typicla teenage "so what?" attitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 13 May 03 - 05:24 PM

It's criminal, it's abuse, it's completely unexceptable & it deserves hash punishment. These acts are degrading, physicaly & mentally harmfull & many of the vitims will probably be seeing long lasting effects. Not only should they recieve the full extent of the law's arm, they should be dismissed from the school not just the prom or graduation. The school should also be hit with a civil law suit not just because they're name is attached to this incident more so because there had to be a prior atmosphere that allowed things to get that far & to assure others that the school system will take more preventive steps so they'll not be a repeat. Hazing has been outlawed in many schools & if I'm not mistaken in the military too, all for very good reasons, say a resulting death. No quarter given here. Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 May 03 - 05:30 PM

This girl is sueing because she wants to graduate and she's totally remorseless over an act that resulted in injury to another person? I'd slap her straight back into 1st grade and this time, teach the little bitch some ethics and morals!

She might make graduation at around 30.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:37 PM

Gee, what Barry said. (it won't happen though....they'barely get their knuckles rapped)

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Beccy
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:58 PM

There was a hazing death out here in NY a few weeks ago. An 18 year old boy was pledging a fraternity that had already been barred from the SUNY Plattsburgh campus and as his final hazing activity, had to drink several gallons of water through a funnel. He died due to swelling of the brain caused by excessive water ingestion. The excuse by the boys who made him drink it? "He didn't have to drink it. He could've stopped any time and we wouldn't have thought any less of him." Ummmmm... yeah, right.


Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 03 - 07:02 PM

Spaw, I've read some of the accounts of that coed case. They aren't saying much, i.e. why nobody else in the dorm heard anything, why the eye witness didn't do anything to stop it or get help, etc., etc. And, was she a foster child WITH blood relatives who came out of the woodwork after her death or what? And, she danced at a strip club? The reports I found on google just weren't very thorough. At any rate, it is horrendous and I hadn't even heard of it until your mention. At first I thought it was talking about that other college fire.

Maybe this generation, i.e. the girls in IL and others need a plague of their own. Hmmm...anyone want to write that song: A Plague of Thier Own!"


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 May 03 - 01:18 AM

I'd like to take all those girls over my knee and give them all a good spanking, right on their bare asses, again and again and again... with a pink fuzzy bunny slipper... till their asses were good and red and sore... yeah... yeah... that'd teach those sicko kids to be good... huh... huh...



;D


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 May 03 - 01:19 AM

uhhh... what did they do again?


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:19 PM

And nobody is mentioning the lawyers who are just lining up to sue the parents of the hazers... "Well honey, there went your college money..."


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:45 PM

there needs to be a yearly scjool assembly at which the principal, the Pres of the PRA and a police officer stand up and explain VERY clearly that "This kind of crap will NOT be tolerated...anytime!!" (In the same assembly, BULLYING in general should be clarified and banned, with appropriate sanctions listed!)

but....none of this will happen, as 87.3105% of school officials these days are afraid of their own shadows and lawsuits by parents who want THEIR little darling to be tolerated no matter how stupid, illegal and ridiculous their behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: mg
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:53 PM

Serious consequences for girls and their parents. I haven't followed the case so I can't be more specific. No slap on the wrists. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 May 03 - 05:01 PM

Not to condone any of this barbaraous behavior, but this ritual surely didn't appear out of nowhere this year, did it?

Certainly the teachers, administrators and parents who countenanced this institution in past years should share some of the guilt.

TH


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: DougR
Date: 14 May 03 - 05:17 PM

I think they should be punished. Beccy's idea of a bit of jail time appeals to me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Dahlin
Date: 15 May 03 - 09:27 AM

Having worked in a high shool for over thirty years I can assure you that many high schools put out clear messages in several ways condemung and banning any form of hazing. Ours certainly does.
    If we check this particular incident the events happened off school grounds with the knowledge of at least some parents, an area that is off-limits to school officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Dahlin
Date: 15 May 03 - 09:32 AM

Message sent too soon (without checking spelling!)
Has anyone considered the effect of reality-tv and teen films like Jackass as perhaps lowering the sense of compassion and caring in our young adults?


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 03 - 09:58 AM

After reading some of the posts here, I guess we can see first hand what mob mentality can do. Since NONE of us have anything other than media accounts yet we feel comfortable with doling out opinions on punishment.   Some of the postings seem to be "can you top this" with the reaction to this incident - "serious consequences...spanking... bare assess... red and sore... bitches", etc.

Hazing is wrong, but do you see where it stems from? With our own anger building in reaction, can you imagine how those KIDS escalated this incident?


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 03 - 10:54 AM

With respect, Ron, I think there were more measured responses for which you are not giving credit. Yes, there can be a mob mentality, but the majority here, imo, are saying they need to be charged by law, as well as others who may be culpable, i.e. the parents. The examples you have picked out are the extremes among us.

kat:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:34 AM

Kat - that WAS my point. The examples are extremes, but the individuals who made them are not what I would call extremists.    I did say "some" of the postings, not all, and if you read the story, not all of the students participated.

I never said that the students shouldn't be punished. The guilty should be punished. I'm just saying that we are not in possession of all the facts and it becomes clear how "mob mentality" can effect us.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: wilco
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:56 AM

Dahlin makes a good point. Reality TV shows, trash like jackass and Jerry Springer, the court shows, MTV, some of the BET programiing is
so demeaning and degrading. It might be that there are at least two generations of people now with no concept of edifying humanity. And, I would put the "Holocaust of the Centuries, Abortion" as central to this degradation of humanity. If you can tear innocent babies to pieces, what does it say about violence and inhumanity in a culture?


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 03 - 01:56 PM

Ron, thanks for the further explanation. I understand and agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: mg
Date: 15 May 03 - 03:17 PM

I don't think it is mob mentality. I saw some of the video and thought at first it had to do with the war..some sort of retribution for some poor women..but no. Especially since they are girls they should have very serious punishment, because boys certainly would. No free ride when (or if) they cry, pout, promise to do better in the future, say this will affect their admission to college, or whatever. I hope this will send a message to parents to watch what their kids are up to. 0

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 15 May 03 - 03:37 PM

wilco48-I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about abortion, but I'll say two things. First, many people instinctively interpret any usage of the word Holocaust referring to an event other than the Holocaust in Nazi Germany to be belittling that Holocaust, and while I am sure that is not your intent, it cuts down on rational discussion to spark such emotions. Secondly, I see a very clear line between the statement that a fetus does not have rights, and the gut idea that a person who is essentially no different from you in physical or mental ability has no rights. I agree that much of "reality" television degrades people, and might contribute to lack of empathy, but there is a tremendous emotional gap between a near-adult and a fetus who you can't even see, and is not recognizably human except under a microscope, and then to someone expecting to recognize a human.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:31 PM

...I have no problems with parents (if they choose to) allowing their children to drink at home, in private; the kids are supervised that way and can't go out and harm others while they learn to cope with the effects alcohol...

There is a case pending in the Philadelphia area where a mum provided alcohol for a teen party at her house. She was in attendance but apparently not attending very well. A fifteen year old girl got drunk, was put in the homeowner's son's room and was later raped by the son. Lives have been severely damaged if not destroyed. Alcohol and teens don't go together very well - especially if mum isn't keeping an eye out.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:44 PM

Alcohol and teens don't go together very well - especially if mum isn't keeping an eye out.

I agree, WW. But I also don't think that a first-time drunken 21 year old being released on society without any idea of what the effects alcohol are like is a particularly bright option. You might as well hand car keys to a 16 year old without teaching them to drive first, and then be astonished when they get in a wreck!

There's a big world of difference between supplying alcohol for a teen party (with other people's children around, not just the ones you are responsible for making decisions about), and "Son, would you like to try a beer?" safely in the home on a supervised Saturday afternoon. The first is recklessly irresponsible; the second is a learning experience.

Violence on reality shows vs. violence on the news channels perpetuated by those in authority... I know which one I think is more likely to make kids believe violence is an acceptable way of dealing with problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 May 03 - 05:05 PM

Like I said, I came from there, not originally but most of my growing up years (4th grade thru HS at GBN) were spent there. I find this hard to discuss without looking at my own feelings about the place. I have found it interesting that no one asked me, since I said early on that I am from there, what it is like there. I say this not in criticism, just that I found that interesting.

A few things I would like to comment upon--

FL, you did just turn this into an abortion debate thread. IMO neither side of that debate has learned the skills of talking about it without sparking off thought-stopping upset, of the same sort you refer to in your post.

Ron, what I see here is a mix of venting thoughts describing things people would probably not actually do, as individuals, and rational thought about sketchy facts. I see your point about mobs-- most Mudcat threads about politically hot issues do seem to generate a mobby kind of response in the threads. But I am not sure I agree that we can extrapolate too far about going from that kind of groupthink to violent action IRL.

Regarding Northbrook, and hazing in Northbrook. When I went to HS there (late 60's), it was an honored tradition, school-supported (in fact if not in policy), that all incoming freshmen were hazed on a particular day just after the start of the school year. I forget what they called it, or how the incoming frosh were briefed ahead of time, if they didn't have older sibs to fill them in. But you were expected to show up on That Day wearing an old shirt of your dad's, so that nasty things could be written on it or splashed on it, and to mark you as a frosh.

During the passing period, lunch, and so forth, any senior could claim you as their slave for just about any act that can be perfomered in public without getting arested. (You would hope some friend of your older sib would claim you early in the day and be nice, thus making you unavailable for others' attentions.) It was often verbally cruel but no one got hurt physically as I recall.

It was part of the expectation that once you became a senior, you would "top" what had been done to you. Since I skipped senior year, I don't have that end of the event to share. But theoretically, knowing you would get your turn someday made the experience "bearable" for some of the victims.

At the time I went to GBN, Northbrook was in the throes of neighborhood change. It had been a small, community-spirited, family-friendly and quiet small town for all its history. The housing stock was mixed in age and substance, and the social classes were diverse and harmonious. It was all pretty stable. The schools were good, produced a good mix of college-bound and vo-ed graduates, and teachers knew families as neighbors.

All this began to change in the early to mid-70's, with acres of open fields becoming brand-new subdivisions of expensive ticky-tacky. Corporate HQs began to move into the suburbs, and housing was needed for the executive transfers and the professionals to service their families. All around the center of town, where the lovely older homes sat on tree-lined streets, these monstrosities of architectoidism and social experimentation squeezed out homemade baseball space, space to run with your dog, space to meet and neck pretty innocently, and paths through the tall summer grass to adventure on.

A generation of kids came of age losing their cherished wandering spaces, places they had used to play out the games that move us from kid to young adult, places to practice the skills we saw modeled at home and on TV to see how they really worked, places to get away from alcoholic parents or geeky grownups in general. Bicycles became obsolete almost overnight.

Northbrook became divided into new (moneyed) folks and town (making a decent living) folks. Town folks enjoyed the economic boom at first, but soon resented being treated like provincial hicks by nouveau-riche suburbanites with no roots in the community, and no desire to have roots. It was, frankly, a land grab.

The schools and the local chamber of commerce flexed to meet the demands of the newcomers. The local political system was entirely overwhelmed by people with no sense of history.

As this affected the high school, teen suicide rates began to climb there. Remember when you first heard about this phenomenon in the US? Among other places, that was Northbrook they were talking about.

High school, ah yes, happy memories! The old separation between greasers and jocks now became a more finely-graded, pressure-laden separation of minute differences in how well one dressed, what car mom and dad gave you, how you expected to do on SATs, what school mommie and daddie would buy your way into. Kids succeeded, sometimes by becoming cheaters and victimizers, or they failed and some cracked up completely.

There were drugs of choice like LSD and pot and booze, and a lot of money to pay off mistakes made in the grip of them. The elite moved on to mind-numbing addictions, like reds and ludes and horse.

Well. As time went on, everything got more and more competitive. The schools, starting with the kindiegardens, got more and more inhuman. By the early 80's, when I toured the schools and observed classes to see if my son would go to one, school was a scary place where meanness between kids became a game of such skill and energy that I could see no such thing there, anymore, as childhood. (I homeschooled all the time I lived there wit my son.)

Northbrook got prettier and prettier in the chamber of commerce brochures, except that the very gracious and well-kept traditional homes in the main part of town were absent (tho some of us did live in them). The Main Street shops you could walk to, as a kid, barely survived, because now we had Northbrook Court near the new subdivisions, with Neiman Marcus of all things, in NORTHBROOK????

Country roads ringing the town became 4-laners, then 6-laners, and now some are 8-laners. The corporate HQ phenomenon moved partly overseas, and a lot of the jobs moved back to downtown Chicago. Now Northbrook is just a "desirable" bedroom community with great schools (uh huh), where you have to rush in your car, on your cellphone, to where the jobs are, or to the trains that go to the jobs, or to Northbrook Court and the other area malls. Dog-eat-dog drivers where kids once grew up.


It doesn't surprise me a bit that hazing has escalated to this point.

It doesn't surprise me that the kids there who were involved have NO ideas of the most basic human values people here at Mudcat might expect them to understand and possibly uphold.

It doesn't surprise me that mommie and daddie want to sue the school (or someone else) over it all.

It doesn't surprise me that we have reality TV based on these warped values of money and competitiveness to the point of injury, and that a person wins these by voting everyone else OUT.


In case you didn't get my point yet, the girl who said, "Well, no one died did they?" honsestly , from what I can see, from the view I have of the place, has NO IDEA how extreme a statement that question makes. But she's not the problem. She's a symptom.

Should they know better, well yeah, duh, dubble-duh. I don't think there is anyone left there, to have taught them. Should they be puniches, of course. But I don't think there is a will to make the punishment relevant to what happened. Be cruel to the cruel ones? They've already had that.

So I think each person in Northbrook who lives in one of those houses ought to be dropped off in one of the small rural towns in the US like the one I live in, or deposited on a working family farm, or sent to Army survival school.... I think if they were split up away from each other and given real life to touch and real dirt to smell, and given real kindness from humble people grateful for what they have-- I think that would do it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 15 May 03 - 05:13 PM

i like the idea of giving them the same treatment...


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 03 - 05:21 PM

Susan - well said!

As you said, each group has to top the previous group. Once drawing on a shirt was fun, but after awhile it needs something bigger.

I still stand by the mob mentality statement.   I do think that sane individuals can be pushed over the brink when they act in packs. What would seem unthinkable suddenly becomes reality when driven with a mob.

I also wonder how the entire afternoon escalated.   The video that played on the news was only a snippet of the event at it's peak. What else went on during that afternoon to bring it to such a frenzy?

We can blame the media, we can blame alchol, we can blame the parents - and essentially ALL were factors.   I don't think it is fair to focus on their age. I've been to events such as a wedding where fights break out for no apparent reason - among adults who know better. A few years ago I was in a supermarket and watched two middleage men get into a slap fight (it really looked silly) because one man beat the other to the checkout counter.   Human nature is that we all try to top one another. That is one of the reasons why all of us like to vent our opinions.   There was the terrible incident at a parade in NYC a few years ago where women were fondled and worse.   Look at all the looting that goes on after events such as the NBA finals. Are we witnessing "bad" people using an opportunity or are we seeing something deeper coming out in the "comfort" of a mob.

What we saw was a disgrace. The kids need to be punished.   I just caution those of us that want to throw stones to take a deeper look at what the root of the problem is.

Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 03 - 05:47 PM

Speaking of mob mentality and nothing of today's societal ills to blame it on, read the old classic The Oxbow Incident. A quite diverse crowd, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 May 03 - 06:40 PM

Interesting comments, Susan. But I guess when a school has a fine and longstanding tradition of supporting and advocating mental and emotional abuse and degradation as part of the educational system, I have a hard time assuming the problem is all those darn city folks that moved into town.

The problem was there when it was a rural community, it just wasn't as obvious. Maybe the density of population excerbated it. But I don't think raising kids in a rural setting will automatically help them be better people when the adults are sanctioning those kinds of activities.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 May 03 - 09:09 PM

Holy shit, Ron. I was joking! I would have thought you'd realize that....

See? It was Irony. Read it again in that light.

I agree with you 100% about the mob-rule, trial-by-media thing, too. That's why my post wasn't serious. I think it's pretty damn silly to post an opinion on "scandalous" current events in an internet forum anyway, especially one that doesn't specialize in that sort of thing. What good does it do and who cares anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 May 03 - 10:05 PM

It's not city versus country. It's about a town that sold out its core values to another set of values. It wasn't rural... it was a small town like many others.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:16 PM

When I went to HS there (late 60's), it was an honored tradition, school-supported (in fact if not in policy), that all incoming freshmen were hazed on a particular day just after the start of the school year.

It doesn't indicated a change in values on this subject, to me, if this has been going on for 30+ years.

The silliness of the perpetrators' parents suing the school about graduation and the kids not grasping the magnitude of their deed? Yes, I think what you said fits a lot. That kind of obtuseness comes from a failure, as a society, to encourage people to think about their actions in terms of ethics and consequences. It's always someone ELSE'S fault, right? Sadly, I don't think that your hometown, even if it hadn't had the boom it did, would have escaped that mentality.

It's hard to watch a place you love change for the worse. I watched my childhood home do that, too, as a teenager. And we had some hazing at my high schools, but it was pretty mild. If you were caught, you were suspended -- whether the victim complained or not, or was injured or not. That had a remarkable effect on keeping it down to some very limited activity.

But if the parents of the victims chose to sue the school, and I were sitting on a jury that was told that the school has tacitly and/or actively supported hazing since at least the 60's, I'd been inclined to think the school had some liability here. I doubt this is the first time a student has been seriously injured during overzealous hazing -- but this time it was a group and it was caught on videotape for everyone to see instead of push under the table out of peer pressure to just suck it up because it happens to every freshman. (And no doubt parent pressure, too, of former students of that school.)

Lordy, being a teenager is hard enough without *encouraging* the kids to humiliate each other!


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:29 PM

Cluin - well if you say it was irony then I guess it was, but on first read it doesn't come across that way. It is not easy to convey humor at times.

Still, perhaps my not understanding of your "joke" proves a point. Hazing starts out as a joke. Blow off steam and have a laugh. It gets out of hand when limits on what is acceptable become blurred. Again the mob mentality takes over.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: Cluin
Date: 16 May 03 - 01:21 AM

Ron, I do say it was irony. So does the laughing smiley and the pink bunny slipper and the whole damn purposefully stupid tone of the post. Those limits were never blurred for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What should happen to the IL hazers?
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:12 AM

Very well Cluin.   I didn't realize the D was a smiley. Again, everything is open to interpretation is the point.


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