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Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds

GUEST,Lidy 28 May 03 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,minky 28 May 03 - 05:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 28 May 03 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Gwylan Bach 27 May 03 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Gwylan Bach 27 May 03 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,weerover 27 May 03 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Gwylan Bach 27 May 03 - 10:12 AM
paulo 26 May 03 - 03:29 PM
Hawker 23 May 03 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Starfire 23 May 03 - 12:39 PM
clansfolk 23 May 03 - 11:02 AM
clansfolk 23 May 03 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Starfire 23 May 03 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,Guest-Starfire 23 May 03 - 12:44 AM
julie rogers 22 May 03 - 06:48 PM
clansfolk 20 May 03 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,mink 20 May 03 - 06:38 AM
Janice in NJ 20 May 03 - 05:45 AM
Phot 19 May 03 - 03:06 PM
clansfolk 19 May 03 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 18 May 03 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,Guest Folkie 18 May 03 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Owain 18 May 03 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Disappointed 18 May 03 - 01:54 PM
paddywack 18 May 03 - 01:44 PM
paddywack 18 May 03 - 01:37 PM
Jeri 18 May 03 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,sadoldgit 18 May 03 - 09:20 AM
sweetfire 18 May 03 - 08:30 AM
Phot 18 May 03 - 07:56 AM
clansfolk 18 May 03 - 05:49 AM
clansfolk 18 May 03 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Guest Folkie 17 May 03 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,Disappointed 17 May 03 - 03:26 PM
Liz the Squeak 11 May 03 - 05:26 PM
The Shambles 11 May 03 - 04:03 AM
paulo 10 May 03 - 04:09 PM
sweetfire 10 May 03 - 02:07 PM
Hayduke 10 May 03 - 12:46 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 10 May 03 - 09:33 AM
JudeL 10 May 03 - 09:03 AM
bone2pic 10 May 03 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,mink 10 May 03 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Reeltime 10 May 03 - 04:43 AM
Liz the Squeak 10 May 03 - 04:12 AM
Melani 09 May 03 - 09:52 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 May 03 - 03:06 PM
paulo 09 May 03 - 02:32 PM
Schantieman 09 May 03 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,mink 09 May 03 - 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Lidy
Date: 28 May 03 - 06:51 AM

Lidy brings you the easy way to solve your session gripes:
Campfire training is the way forward!! When i was a Girl Guide, I was subjected to campfire singing (as a leader, i quite enjoy it now!!). It's simple. Someone important who thinks all the Guides like them (when in reality they are the most disliked authority figure on camp), stands at the front and leads the songs that only they want to sing. Occasionnally some young leader's boyfriend (when I was a young leader, it was normally mine, poor lad) who has been dragged along will try to join in on a guitar whose tuning has suffered awfully from the cold and damp. Guides will sit around cringeing for ages, wishing they could leave and go to the Scout camp in the next field, before deciding that joining in may be the only way to end this ordeal. Everyone suffers severe vocal damage from singing too loudly around an open fire on a cold night. Thus solving the problem of them being noisy in the minibus on the way home.
After that, everyone would find even the most hostile sessions welcoming and enjoyable! And they would realise the value of every individual instrument and the beauty of traditional songs. Simple!
Maybe the next camp I run could have an "In the Tradition" culture of the British Isles theme...


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,minky
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:48 AM

grrrrrrrrrr. Who'd ever have thought that Shipbuilding was a shaky-egg-able song!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 03 - 04:33 AM

Well why the heck not! I was in on a session recently where there was a cello and a double bass - possibly the two most unsociable session instruments after the trombone, but it was good to have something a bit more bassy. I find some sessions go higher and higher up the scales and if you want to join in you need a dog whistle! Something good and solid on the bottom helps bring a tune down to sensible auditory levels and can provide an interesting rhythmn too.

There were some spoons there too.... very badly tuned, but then, spoons cadged from the table of fellow diners are rarely chosen for their musicality, rather their ability to hold generous portions of chocolate fudge cake (they were good for that too).

I promise I won't do it again.... the handles were so badly shaped that I got a blister after only 15 minutes playing.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:49 AM

Oh well, it,ll just have to be the tuba then is it?
Diolch yn fawr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:59 AM

Oh well, it,ll just have to be the tuba then is it?
Diolch yn fawr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:15 AM

Gwylan,

I would guess...yes, if you play spoons you are doomed to remain a pariah. Sorry.

wr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:12 AM

I wondered when someone would get around to having a go at spoons players! (starfire, 23 May) Is there a session anywhere that would welcome me and my spoons, or am I doomed to remain a pariah? Also, why do all "Irish" session players look so serious, and continually play the same tune? Would it help if I joined in on my Tuba, "German" Umpah bands seem so much jollier? Just a thought bwt.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 26 May 03 - 03:29 PM

Starfire - please don't try to add verses to this son as I think it would spoil it.    Don't forget the first verse starts "At he turning of the century I was a lad of five".    Putting recent events in would make him a hundred and eight!

By the way did you know that Ian Campbell's two son's are the same campbell's who are in UB40?

paulo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hawker
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:34 PM

One thing which I think has been overlooked, (I have scanned but not read ALL postings on this thread) is the people leading the sing arounds can sometimes be VERY bad mannered! Especially if they don't know you, rather than politely asking if you want to join in, they repeatedly miss you out!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 12:39 PM

Pete, you're a miracle!!!
That's so much more than I've ever had. I didn't know if it was an original composition of the local band that recorded it. Anything more you could dig up would be appreciated. My local sessions love the song and that's one that I'm always asked to do, especially now, with all that's going on uin the world. I'm told I must add a few verses to bring it up to date...
My most profound thanks to you sir!
Starfire


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:02 AM

Julie Rogers wrote ……   


i've followed this thread from the start not believing clansfolk could be so petty to start it.

The Topic was started in a discussion board after comments were made to me at a regular singaround (I attend 2-4 a week and enjoy all of them most of the time) – I'm not sure why I was "petty" to start it and am surprised that so many people responded to the subject and not just let the petty thread die


was it knowingly started so as to create bad feeling? No – neither did I think it would and neither do I think it has… and I take objection to you implying this.

hey everyone is entitled to there own opinion but some are better unsaid – is this except for me or the people who don't agree with you? should we just be quiet and not debate such subjects?


if clansfolk is so unhappy playing with people who dare break his rules why does he continue?
– I don't have any rules – I have opinions on what I feel are bad manners (I'm most offended to bad manners to others than myself) I do not "Run" sing arounds and as mentioned in one of the threads enjoy playing with other musicians (and have done for approaching 50 years)


why do something you're unhappy with? - see above – when did I say I was unhappy I thought it was the opposite!

pete and guest folkie to name just two seem to have brought i little sense into this matter – "Pete"??? and Guest Folkie – guest "folkie" did make interesting comments and I did in fact comment on this…….

and no i dont think bone 2 pick is moaning i think he has a valid point and would think his comment about his wife was meant as a joke if maybe a sarcastic one...     If bone2pic was being "sarcastic" would this not contradict his complaint that was obviously directed at an individual who he was incapable of facing to discuss what he thought was a personal attack on himself (I didn't say he was moaning but I get the feeling he has a lot of pent up anger and annoyed at himself that he didn't confront the "Banjo Player" – as a banjo player myself he can shout at me if it will make him feel better (I've broad shoulders and a Belly to match!!!)

from what i've read in this thread clansfolk pete knows a thing or to about sarcasm or are his comments meant as sarcastic remarks or doe he really believe in what he wrote?   - Some were obviously tongue in cheek most were my opinion - if that's alright (that was sarcasm ;-) ) – I'm happy to clarify which were which (maybe if you PM me as you appear to object to me and my comments rather than the topic and those who feel there is a problem?)

One interesting thing I noticed about the thread is the amount of "guests" and "first time Posters" that contributed and the number of people who are concerned with "Bad Manner" at session etc…… maybe it's not a "petty" subject to those who ARE concerned about other people's feelings????

Below is a list of My (Pete aka Clansfolk) post on this topic






(1) I'd be interested what you think are bad manners at sessions/singarounds at open bar sessions and by fellow musicians/singers.

Comments I had so far....
Joining in with tunes you don't know - loudly....
Insisting on playing the chords you know for the song even if they clash with the person performing....
Playing or showing someone to play an instrument/different song whist someone is performing.......
Talking........

I'm sure many have their pet annoyances - or maybe it doesn't bother you what others do when you are playing/singing at a session????

"the one thing that annoys me about amateur musicians is that they expect you to listen to them" J B SHAW?
(George Beranard Shaw)


(2) and I thought it was just me being intolerant in me old age -

- maybe living through the shared folk revival in the 50/60s and the way everyone learnt, shared and admired together has led me to believe that the people who go to sessions now are of the same mind and want to join together to enjoy a mutual interest - where so many nowadays seem to treat sessions as time to show-off try to play louder than anyone else and generally say "look at me"

"There's no "I" in group"

am I really that old


(3) I'm living on the pension now - it doesn't go so far etc........          .............In my day,

(4) I agree that in a pub you expect the clients to talk - but surely fellow musician should have more respect - the talkers are usually the ones who expect everyone to be quiet whilst they perform!

(5) errrrmmmmmmmm   getting am I?
Been everywhere, seen and done everything - what a shame I can't remember any of it!
- do as you would be done by is my motto now - grrrrrrr!

(6) chordus interuptus - very dangerous.....

(7) TOPIC      Bad Manners at sesions, singaround



Guests.... Disapointed & Guest Folkie??? ......

Guest "disapointed" - with that attitude I'm surprised your old enough to be allowed in pubs.

They are music sessions not help sessions.........


Maybe you are attending the wrong clubs for the wrong reasons or with the attitude...

I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting

I have never heard of a problem with the above, at the Falcon we are always happy for people to listen, and play what they have learned -

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether you're playing your banjo or your bones - you're not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising

Of course people talk in pubs..... but maybe if people wish to "socialise" loudly (usually to shout over the music!) it might just be common decency not to join a group of people who are playing and singing purporting to be there to join in and enjoy that side of socialising then talk through what they are doing! Manners cost nothing!!

I think the whole thing comes down to respect for others.... whether new to music or a survivor from the 50's (or earlier!) I don't "butt in" to peoples conversations - go along to a party and try and organise everyone - tell people what to drink and how to drink it - why then do people go along to sessions, Singaround and be musically impolite to the same degree?????

Don't go along to join in with something you say you enjoy and then expect everything to change to the way you want it to be and remember...........

GIGO - Garbage in - Garbage out   - make an effort to contribute to the event not disrupt it.......

Tip: If you don't know a tune, playing louder doesn't help you learn it!

Pete .....

always happy to play/sing alongside musicians of any standard who are aware of their capabilities, can tune (or arrange to have tuned) their instrument, know the key others are playing in (if they are joining in), know when NOT to play, enjoy making and listening music, and don't listen to "Music Teachers" who tell them "it doesn't matter if you play the wrong chords, play in the wrong key, sing out of tune etc.. as long as you're joining in and enjoying yourself" !!!!      :-}

(8)        I think many of the above comments also apply to "Bones2pic" who only looks to be going along to the sessions to get away from his wife??

If his wife won't put up with him why should others????

(9) Peter from Essex...

If you stopped the people mentioned going to your "open" sessions and singarounds and restricted them to folk clubs (although many of the session/singarounds I've been to consist of many people who don't play folk music) I think you would be left with very few musicians....

I'm sure I would find little enjoyment in sitting with a crowd of people, talking, playing out of tune, playing / singing different songs etc..... all at the same time,

Guest Folkie.... I must agree! maybe I'll take an extra pill and try and be more tolerant, and try and realise that sometimes what appears to be bad manners on the part of others is just a lack of being aware of how a things normally happen in what to them is a new environment....   and that sometimes comments that are meant to be a joke to put people at their ease, can be taken as an attack or sarcasm - not to judge books by covers and not to hate in plural....

and maybe if we all had a bit more respect for others beliefs and feeling it would be a better world to live in.....


Now where's those pills..............    :-)

(10) Janice - simple yet effective...   Have adopted the idea, but will maybe add a "Pass" option -

A card (triangle in shape) could be made to pass to the next person in the circle - which would show their choice - everyone was aware even those who may have not heard the choice or were at the bar loo?
brill
Pete


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE OLD MAN'S SONG (Ian Campbell)
From: clansfolk
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:55 AM

words from memory so I can't say if all the words are as "first written" I'll check for further background and post it to this thread. - Pete



THE OLD MAN'S SONG
(Ian Campbell)

At the turning of the century I was a lad of five,
Me father went to fight the Boers and never came back alive
Me ma was left to bring us up, no Charity she'd seek
She washed and scrubbed and scraped along on seven & six a week.

When I was twelve I left the school and went to find a job,
With growing kids me Ma was glad of the extra couple of bob,
I'm sure that better schooling would have stood me in good stead,
But you can't afford refinements when you're struggling for your bread.

And when the Great War came along I didn't hesitate,
I took the Royal shilling and went off to do me bit,
I fought in mud and tears and blood Three years or there' about
'til I copped some gas in Flanders and was invalided out.

And when the war was over and we'd settled with the Hun,
We got back into civvies and we thought the fighting done,
We'd won the right to live in Peace, but we didn't have such luck
For pretty soon we had to fight for the right to go to work.

In Twenty six the General Strike found me on the streets
Though I'd a wife and kids by then and their needs I had to meet
But a Brave New world was coming and the Brotherhood of man,
But when the strike was over we were back where we began.

I struggled through the Thirties, out of work now and again,
I saw the Black shirts marching and the things they did in Spain
But I brought me kids up decent and I taught them wrong from right,
Then Hitler was the lad that came and taught them how to fight.

Me daughter she's a Land girl she got married to a Yank
They gave me son a gong for stopping one of Rommel's tanks,
He was wounded just before the end and convalesced in Rome
Where he married an Eyetie girl and never bothered to come home

My daughter writes me every month a cheerful little note
About their colour telly, and the other things they've got
They have a son a likely lad, he's almost 21
And now they say he's go to go and fight in Vietnam

We're living on the pension now; it doesn't go too far,
Not much to show for a life that's been like one long bloody war,
When I think of all the wasted lives it makes you want to cry,
I'm not sure how to change things - but by Christ we've got to try.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:42 AM

Now for an on topic post.... *grin*
I attend 3-4 sessions a week (I know, lucky me!!) and am one of those people who play the most feared and dreaded of instruments- the bodhran- (cringe in fear!!!) Some diety some where decided to bless me, not only with a good sense of rhythm, but with taste and consideration in playing as well... at least that's what I'm told. I just know the session leaders will usually ask me to sit near them, when I'm not otherwise occupied.
We have our share of bad bodhran players at each session. We also have quite a few new folks who show up with a drum, figuring 'anyone can play it'. Between myself, the session leaders and a few of the folks I've gotten to already, we catch these newcomers as soon as possible. I'll usually introduce myself to them, ask about their drum, get some other pertenant info from them and then tell them a bit about myself. Mostly breaking the ice stuff. I'll ask at some point if they have a teacher. Then I let it drop. I'll go on with my playing and let them figure out that I might be a good role model. When then come to me for hint, tips or teaching, I share as much as they will take. If this subtle approach doesn't do it, one of the other session regulars, or leaders, will point me out and flat out say, 'you might want to ask that one for a few pointers'.
This approach has worked for almost every instrument (sorry, haven't figured out how to make it work for bones or spoons :-( ). We also have several 'slow sessions' and learning sessions in the area, some going on at the same time as the traditional session in a different part of the pub. I think having a few people who are willing to share their talent with newcomers, even if it's one on one, can improve everyone's time at a session, while taking some of the onus off the leaders, who have to focus on everyone, not just one person.

And, yes, noodling really ticks me off, as I'm a singer too....

Peace
Starfire


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest-Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 12:44 AM

My apologies to all, this is off-topic a bit. I noticed a post towards the beginning of the thread as follows:

Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

I'm living on the pension now - it doesn't go so far etc..........


.............In my day,

This is a snippit of a favorite song of mine, that I have NEVER been able to get any information for. Folks at the singers sessions I attend have been asking for some background, and I don't have any. ClansFolk, can you help me? Can you point me to any song you may have been referencing, especially if it is "The Old Man's Song" not to be confused with Phil Coulter's "The Old Man".
Peace
Starfire


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: julie rogers
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:48 PM

i've followed this thread from the start not believing clansfolk could be so petty to start it. was it knowingly started so as to create bad feeling? hey everyone is entitled to there own opinion but some are better unsaid.if clansfolk is so unhappy playing with people who dare break his rules why does he continue?
why do something youre unhappy with?
pete and guest folkie to name just two seem to have brought i little sense into this matter

and no i dont think bone 2 pick is moaning i think he has a valid point and would think his comment about his wife was meant as a joke
if maybe a sarcastic one...from what i've read in this thread clansfolk
pete knows a thing or to about sarcasm or are his comments meant as sarcastic remarks or doe he really believe in what he wrote?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 20 May 03 - 08:43 AM

Janice - simple yet effective...

Have adopted the idea, but will maybe add a "Pass" option -

A card (triangle in shape) could be made to pass to the next person in the circle - which would show their choice - everyone was aware even those who may have not heard the choice or were at the bar loo?


brill


Pete


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:38 AM

Janice - that sounds like a really nice idea - and includes those people that are there just to listen, which is a nice touch.
A good model to follow I reckon.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:45 AM

At the various sing-arounds and song circles and open sings I've gone to in the NY-NJ area, we usually have some system taking turns. When your turn comes around, you have three choices:

1. You can perform a song, meaning that you do it solo or else only with those people you individually ask to accompany you.

2. You can lead a song, meaning that others are free to join in with voices and instruments. Good song leaders usually run through the tune and chords at least once, and they specify whether they want people to sing along on the entire song or only on the choruses.

3. You can request a song, either from a specific individual or from the group as a whole. In the latter instance, someone who knows the song usually comes forward to lead it. If not, you get a chance to request another song. Also, if you perform or lead a song by request, it does not count as your turn.

Sessions of this kind tend to be friendly places where people of all interests and ability levels feel welcome.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Phot
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:06 PM

Thanks for the enlightenment o wise ones,..If noodling hacks you off,come to a Middle Bar shanty session,usually so loud we can't hear ourselves think,let alone noodle!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:41 AM

Peter from Essex...

If you stopped the people mentioned going to your "open" sessions and singarounds and restricted them to folk clubs (although many of the session/singarounds I've been to consist of many people who don't play folk music) I think you would be left with very few musicians....

I'm sure I would find little enjoyment in sitting with a crowd of people, talking, playing out of tune, playing / singing different songs etc..... all at the same time,

Guest Folkie.... I must agree! maybe I'll take an extra pill and try and be more tolerant, and try and realise that sometimes what appears to be bad manners on the part of others is just a lack of being aware of how a things normally happen in what to them is a new environment....   and that sometimes comments that are meant to be a joke to put people at their ease, can be taken as an attack or sarcasm - not to judge books by covers and not to hate in plural....

and maybe if we all had a bit more respect for others beliefs and feeling it would be a better world to live in.....


Now where's those pills..............     :-)


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:23 PM

Clansfolk wrote:

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Thats a bloody good list of people who should stick to folk clubs and stay out of open bar sessions.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest Folkie
Date: 18 May 03 - 03:14 PM

It seems so sad to me that following some misbehaviour (?) on an occasion or two some civilised people with a common love of music and a wish to participate in some sort of session should have reached the point of nuking each other.

It also seems that this tedious and immature thread contains a lot of insults of the "Yah boo sucks" type and not a lot of willingness to adapt or conform to anyone else's view.

I go occasionally to a session where novice instrumentalists and vocalists are welcomed rather than tolerated, and where the local tipsy lady who requests a particular song is cheerfully accommodated even though everybody hates the fields of Athenry.

With so much vituperation and bigotry in our musical community, what chance Korea or N Ireland or Iraq...?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Owain
Date: 18 May 03 - 02:57 PM

Disapointed you didn't say what you were put down for

was it for a song you sang or talking when others were singing or trying to play along with something you didn't know or just the fact that no one smiled at you?

clansfolk harsh words from you?




younger than 36


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Disappointed
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:54 PM

Im old to enough to be in a pub - Im 36 if you really must know. Old enough to recognise that socialising is an enjoyable experience and wise enought to recognise I want nothing to do with sad old gits who clearly dont have a life and get some kind of perverse kick out of putting newcomers down.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paddywack
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:44 PM

A song that I sing regularly at the sessions is "The Mingulay Boat Song". Iuse the same tune for the chorus as for the verse,because I like it that way,but there is one particular person,if present will wave his head and grin like a Cheshire cat.He does this because he knows that I know that he knows a different tune to the chorus.GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! That makes me mad.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paddywack
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:37 PM

My pet hate is when someone else joins in with my singing but have a totally different version of the words.Even if it is just one or two words out I still find myself listening to them rather than train my thoughts onto my own performance.
                                 And when I make mention of the fact to them later(something I always do)they tell me that their version is either better, the original or I am singing it wrong.I feel that if they are joining in with me then they do it my way, right or wrong.
    (There will ALWAYS be someone there to tell you that their version is the better one simply because it is the most popular version."The Kerry Mountains / Whiskey In the Jar / Kilgarry Mountains" is a mighty fine example.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Jeri
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:34 AM

Noodling is when a person plays, usually quietly, when they have no intention of starting a song or tune. They're often practicing or tying to work something out. It's a problem because it can interfere with those who DO want to start a song getting the tune in their head. Many people noodle a little, but some do it constantly and every gap between songs is filled with notes played at the edge of hearing.

Newbcomers with good manners are very welcome most places I've been. It's consistent bad manners because a person lacks the ability or willingness to learn them that makes people unwelcome, although sometimes it's a matter of no one being willing to explain.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,sadoldgit
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:20 AM

Why is it you have all this moaning from "wanabees" like bone2pic who expects to be welcomed with opened arms into sessions when he most likely has nothing to offer other than two chords and a lot of gab??

You need to earn respect from the people around you, by showing some consideration, and respect for the people who have spent time learning their profession and providing a venue for you to go along and learn by watching and listening - maybe when you have looked and listened, learned how to play and sing then you should consider performing.... They owe you nothing.... they do not need to excuse incompetence... make allowances for your inabilities, it may be an open music session - but for musicians - if you can't keep up ask yourself if you should have started!

and yes music should be an enjoyable experience - so don't spoil that enjoyment for the musicians by disrupting the sessions with your incompetence and talking.

noodling = messing around, playing, tuning up, whilst others are performing.

I never talk to strangers in the toilet.....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: sweetfire
Date: 18 May 03 - 08:30 AM

that's what i was wondering.....would someone please care to tell us...

this thread is quite imformative, but lets try not to forget to encourage people eh? wether they're regulars or newcomers. i wouldn't have half the (little) amount of confidence i have if people around me weren't as supportive as they have been. and im not just talking about friends, that also includes strangers talking to me in the toilets. everything helps. so maybe we should start concentrating on something more positive....?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Phot
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:56 AM

What the hell is noodling anyway?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 May 03 - 05:49 AM

I think many of the above comments also apply to "Bones2pic" who only looks to be going along to the sessions to get away from his wife??

if his wife won't put up with him why should others????


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 May 03 - 05:35 AM

TOPIC      Bad Manners at sesions, singaround



Guests.... Disapointed & Guest Folkie??? ......

Guest "disapointed" - with that attitude I'm surprised your old enough to be allowed in pubs.

They are music sessions not help sessions.........


Maybe you are attending the wrong clubs for the wrong reasons or with the attitude...

I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting

I have never heard of a problem with the above, at the Falcon we are always happy for people to listen, and play what they have learned -

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether youre playing your banjo or your bones - you're not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising

Of course people talk in pubs..... but maybe if people wish to "socialise" loudly (usually to shout over the music!) it might just be common decency not to join a group of people who are playing and singing purporting to be there to join in and enjoy that side of socialising then talk through what they are doing! manners cost nothing!!

I think the whole thing comes down to respect for others.... whether new to music or a survivor from the 50's (or earlier!) I don't "butt in" to peoples conversations - go along to a party and try and organise everyone - tell people what to drink and how to drink it - why then do people go along to sessions, Singaround and be musically impolite to the same degree?????

Don't go along to join in with something you say you enjoy and then expect everything to change to the way you want it to be and remember...........


GIGO - Garbage in - Garbage out   - make an effort to contribute to the event not disrupt it.......

Tip: If you don't know a tune, playing louder doesn't help you learn it!

Pete .....

always happy to play/sing alongside musicians of any standard who are aware of their capabilities, can tune (or arrange to have tuned) their instrument, know the key others are playing in (if they are joining in), know when NOT to play, enjoy making and listening music, and don't listen to "Music Teachers" who tell them "it doesn't matter if you play the wrong chords, play in the wrong key, sing out of tune etc.. as long as you're joining in and enjoying yourself" !!!!      :-}


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest Folkie
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:05 PM

This thread is the saddest I have ever read. It's so full of people whinging about guests whose crime seems to be wanting to make music and join in.

Let's concentrate on "how to make sessions and singarounds welcome to all, especially the newcomer".

If a regular gets up your nose - try talking to him/her.

I have been a regular at a local session for some time: the delightful thing to me is watching the new performer develop, and perhaps helping. The established and skilful performer shouldn't need any help, and could always put on a concert if silence and attention is so important - then I would expect the audience to be well behaved; in a public bar, let's be tolerant, friendly and enlarge the community of musicians.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Disappointed
Date: 17 May 03 - 03:26 PM

Shant be bothering in future. Stupid me got the idea that as a beginner I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting combined with my usual tution night. How mistaken I have been. Dont get me wrong music lessons are great - but you pompas gits that play at the pub near where I live ought to get your musical instrument out of your backsides and maybe that way you may find a smile comes more natural. I wasnt after your tuition - I pay for that and wouldnt want to be tought by a pretentious oaf anyway. Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether youre playing your banjo or your bones - youre not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 May 03 - 05:26 PM

I'm specifically talking about a person who comes into a session part way through and takes over regardless of previous practice or whether anyone else is actually organising, and yes, the milking organiser is another supreme pain in the ass.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 03 - 04:03 AM

Lis - sometimes a session needs an 'organiser' so that everybody gets to sing.   Some individuals/groups are greedy and just carry on singing other songs, and don't let anyone else in.

The trick is solving the problem of individuals/groups being greedy/inconsiderate and all the other problems listed here, without losing the freedom that make these events so good when they work.

The 'organiser' concept, especially in a pub, is not a solution. In fact I think that it can cause folk to be even worse.

The benevelolent dictator idea, usually self appointed, is one I have difficulty with. No matter how fair this 'organiser' of more accurately 'leader' is trying to be, there will be some folk who feel that they have not been given as much time as other more favoured folk etc, and probably with some justification.

The reaction is usually to 'milk' the precious spot that they are given, to the detrement of everyone.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:09 PM

Lis - sometimes a session needs an 'organiser' so that everybody gets to sing.   Some individuals/groups are greedy and just carry on singing other songs, and don't let anyone else in.   By the way I was asked to organise the sessions I was talking about for just that reason.

By the way.   Any musician accompanying me I welcome - as long as they can tell me what key I was singing in afterwards.

paulo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: sweetfire
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:07 PM

who/what are bordhrans?????


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hayduke
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:46 PM

Had to laugh about Charley Noble's mention of dart boards. I used to play in this small club in California where a lot of the space did "double duty." Behind our stage ... er, designated section of the floor ... they had three dart boards set up. Made me real nervous; between songs I kept looking behind me to see if any of the darts moved.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:33 AM

What is wrong with bordhrans, I play one however I also play Guitar, And I also own an Accordion and I'm thinking of buying a banjo as well.
Glutton for punishment of what.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: JudeL
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:03 AM

Pub singalongs are different from club singarounds and different again from a folk club floor spot night, or a musicians session. There are valid arguements for each and they each have their value, but they are different. Unfortunately how people advertise and describe things does not always enable you to identify which it is until you actually get there, and even then if there is an "organiser" they might have their own ideas about what it is they expect. People often go expecting one type (often because that is what they are used to) and find it difficult to adjust when it's something different. It may also be useful to bear in mind when criticising an "organiser" that that person may have had to do a lot of behind the scenes negotiations to get the landlord to accept the idea especially when sometimes they may not have a PEL.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: bone2pic
Date: 10 May 03 - 07:25 AM

Maybe i should start a new thread entitled 'open pub singalongs ran by
self important oafs'
I've been to an open session a few times at a local pub run by the
landlord who advertises it in the local press saying that 'newcommers are more than welcome'

anyway sat in a corner playing a banjo is the most objectionable person
you'd ever want to meet.His idea of welcoming 'newcommers' consists of what
i've witnessed are sarcastic comments to any new person who tries to
join in. Very offputting to say the least.

Is this common practise in open pub singalongs.

Do you always get 'one' like this in every open pub singalongs ?

for heavens sake these are not concerts i thought they were meant to
be enjoyable experiences... a few people sat around sharing music.

If I wanted to be criticized id of stayed at home with the wife !!........


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 10 May 03 - 06:07 AM

Reeltime! Another voice of good sense! This is very helpful.

I had completely bypassed the fact that, when some demon accompanist is messing up my carefully prepared piece, they are actually just fallible musicians who should be cut a bit of slack. Thanks for pointing that out, as it'll help next time - certainly takes the sting out of it. Its a bit silly to expect perfection every time isn't it - when most of us are happy enthusiastic amateurs rather than professionals.

Also - that request for accompanists to wait until you've set the key & tempo is sheer genius. After the first verse they should be able to assess where you're coming from & understand any variations. Then they can start to accompany from a position of a bit more information. I bet that works well - and I'll have a go with that approach. Ditto perhaps a word about volume of accompaniment - sometimes the accompaniment can be a bit much & you're in danger of straining the voice to keep above it. I'll have to practice my tact & diplomacy skills.......


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Reeltime
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:43 AM

Its been a good long while since I waded into the Mudcat discussion boards, but here I am.

We all have our pet hates at sessions, one of mine is people who sit and tut at you for making a mistake when your accompanying someone. We do make mistakes sometimes us musicians.

My other main one is when you have made youself some room in the corner where you aren't going to hurt anyone (I'm a fiddle player) and someone pulls a stool from somewhere and sits right next to you, right in the "bow in the eye" position

But anyway, I digress.   We all have different opinions as to what is good etiquette, and I suppose it all come down to the club/venue. I personaaly think that common courtesy is the best plan. Keep the volume down where possible, and as for joining in, I make a point when Im singing of asking accompanists to wait until after the first verse, so I can set my key/tempo etc


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:12 AM

Yes, but that's two out of how many thousands? It just takes one bad apple (to drag this kicking and screaming back to music... wasnt' that a hit by the Jackson 5, when Michael was still a sweet black boy instead of a twisted white woman?) to spoil the lot for everyone.

I've met some bloody good bodhrain players in my time, but only one of them had enough sense to know when NOT to play.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Melani
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:52 PM

You guys are being too hard on bodhran players. I actually know at least two who play nicely and appropriately.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:06 PM

Oh yes, that's another problem.. people who come into a perfectly happy session, and try to organise it... have been sitting in many a singaround where we'd been going for a couple of hours, quite merrily (apart from the noodler, but he's been dealt with above) and someone comes in and decides it shouldn't be a jump in but a sing when you're told session. Ruins the atmosphere and buggers the spontenaiety of a good session, especially when you get a run on songs - question and answer, black and white, songs in a similar vein sort of session that doesn't always happen with set singarounds.

And the banananana only goes like that if you get the action wrong... done properly it should look improper, which is the only reason for allowing it in the room.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:32 PM

When I talked about control in my earlier thread I didn't mean domination.

What I meant was someone who will introduce the peoceedings in some sort of order so that people know when it is their turn to sing and the musicians know when they are due to do a set.   OK. and, if nescessary, shut someone up who's being a prat.

My wife and I actually prefare sessions in pubs with all their inherent problems, rather than sessions in private rooms which can become incestuous.

paulo

OK I can't spell bodhran


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:59 PM

or indeed at any other time, in any key!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:38 PM

Liz - hissy fit of course!! banana goes shvshvshv..shv..shvshv..

And another thing - ringing the "time gentlemen please" bell out of key during a song!


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