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Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds

clansfolk 30 Apr 03 - 12:00 PM
mexican 30 Apr 03 - 12:03 PM
mexican 30 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM
Desert Dancer 30 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 30 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM
The Shambles 30 Apr 03 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,ritchie 30 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 30 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM
Barb'ry 30 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM
Leadfingers 30 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM
clansfolk 30 Apr 03 - 01:35 PM
John Routledge 30 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM
clansfolk 30 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM
wysiwyg 30 Apr 03 - 01:48 PM
HuwG 30 Apr 03 - 01:50 PM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 30 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM
clansfolk 30 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM
Rick Fielding 30 Apr 03 - 02:07 PM
Gypsy 30 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM
LesB 30 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM
clansfolk 30 Apr 03 - 02:27 PM
Willie-O 30 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM
alanabit 30 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM
Frankham 30 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM
Liz the Squeak 30 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM
TheBigPinkLad 30 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 03 - 04:52 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM
alison 01 May 03 - 12:36 AM
Leeder 01 May 03 - 12:55 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 May 03 - 01:20 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 May 03 - 02:06 AM
Hovering Bob 01 May 03 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Egal. 01 May 03 - 05:47 AM
Mark Dowding 01 May 03 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,mink 01 May 03 - 06:40 AM
The DeanMeister 01 May 03 - 07:05 AM
Bat Goddess 01 May 03 - 03:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 May 03 - 05:24 PM
wilco 01 May 03 - 05:53 PM
greg stephens 01 May 03 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 May 03 - 07:41 PM
Charley Noble 01 May 03 - 08:00 PM
ooh-aah 02 May 03 - 08:15 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 02 May 03 - 08:32 AM
MickT 02 May 03 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Banjoman 02 May 03 - 09:48 AM
The DeanMeister 02 May 03 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Russ 02 May 03 - 10:32 AM
Charley Noble 02 May 03 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Russ 02 May 03 - 01:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 03 - 02:56 PM
Charley Noble 02 May 03 - 08:39 PM
Mudlark 02 May 03 - 09:38 PM
Mr Happy 02 May 03 - 10:07 PM
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GUEST,Banjoman 06 May 03 - 07:49 AM
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Liz the Squeak 07 May 03 - 04:24 AM
Gervase 07 May 03 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,mink 07 May 03 - 05:42 AM
clansfolk 07 May 03 - 06:13 AM
paulo 07 May 03 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 07 May 03 - 04:36 PM
The Shambles 08 May 03 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,mink 08 May 03 - 04:56 AM
Liz the Squeak 08 May 03 - 07:56 AM
Charley Noble 08 May 03 - 08:04 AM
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Liz the Squeak 08 May 03 - 02:46 PM
Maurice Mann 08 May 03 - 03:13 PM
bone2pic 08 May 03 - 05:37 PM
Charley Noble 08 May 03 - 08:25 PM
Chanteyranger 09 May 03 - 12:41 AM
GUEST,mink 09 May 03 - 03:11 AM
Liz the Squeak 09 May 03 - 03:15 AM
GUEST, Buster Bloodvessel 09 May 03 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,mink 09 May 03 - 08:41 AM
Liz the Squeak 09 May 03 - 10:08 AM
Charley Noble 09 May 03 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,mink 09 May 03 - 12:38 PM
Schantieman 09 May 03 - 12:59 PM
paulo 09 May 03 - 02:32 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 May 03 - 03:06 PM
Melani 09 May 03 - 09:52 PM
Liz the Squeak 10 May 03 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Reeltime 10 May 03 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,mink 10 May 03 - 06:07 AM
bone2pic 10 May 03 - 07:25 AM
JudeL 10 May 03 - 09:03 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 10 May 03 - 09:33 AM
Hayduke 10 May 03 - 12:46 PM
sweetfire 10 May 03 - 02:07 PM
paulo 10 May 03 - 04:09 PM
The Shambles 11 May 03 - 04:03 AM
Liz the Squeak 11 May 03 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Disappointed 17 May 03 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Guest Folkie 17 May 03 - 06:05 PM
clansfolk 18 May 03 - 05:35 AM
clansfolk 18 May 03 - 05:49 AM
Phot 18 May 03 - 07:56 AM
sweetfire 18 May 03 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,sadoldgit 18 May 03 - 09:20 AM
Jeri 18 May 03 - 09:34 AM
paddywack 18 May 03 - 01:37 PM
paddywack 18 May 03 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Disappointed 18 May 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Owain 18 May 03 - 02:57 PM
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clansfolk 19 May 03 - 05:41 AM
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Janice in NJ 20 May 03 - 05:45 AM
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clansfolk 20 May 03 - 08:43 AM
julie rogers 22 May 03 - 06:48 PM
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clansfolk 23 May 03 - 05:55 AM
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paulo 26 May 03 - 03:29 PM
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Liz the Squeak 28 May 03 - 04:33 AM
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Subject: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:00 PM

I'd be interested what you think are bad manners at sessions/singarounds at open bar sessions and by fellow musicians/singers.

Comments I had so far....

Joining in with tunes you don't know - loudly....

Insisting on playing the chords you know for the song even if they clash with the person performing....

Playing or showing someone to play an instrument/different song whist someone is performing.......

Talking........

I'm sure many have their pet annoyances - or maybe it doesn't bother you what others do when you are playing/singing at a session????


"the one thing that annoys me about amateur musicians is that they expect you to listen to them" J B SHAW?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: mexican
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:03 PM

Yes you should listen - but so should they!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: mexican
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM

We have started to draw up a set of rules and a constitution for our club see Rules these are just at draft stage at the moment, but rule 7 seems to cover this thread.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM

Try searching the Forum on "session etiquette" (or similarly) and you'll find LOTS of previous discussions on the topic.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM

As mentioned in the Folkmob rules, asking to borrow someone else's instrument. Grrrr!!!! Friends are one thing, but perfect strangers wanting to use my guitar instantaneously sends me into "If you touch my guitar I'll break your f*****g fingers" mode.

True story: I once loaned my guitar to a stranger and later that night he went home and murdered his father. I didn't know him from Adam's housecat, but a friend recognized him on the evening newscast. Too creepy to suit me. So, I figure that by refusing to loan my guitar to strangers I'm helping to keep the murder rate down.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:38 PM

Folk who arrive at what is obviously a participatory tune session and still insist on singing a song (or more than one song) - making the wrong assumption that they are the only ones present capable or willing to do this - thus turning everyone else present into an automatic and (usually) appreciative audience - whilst then reserving the right to get upset - should anyone then play their instruments to accompany the song - and then having done their bit - just talk over the tunes through the rest of the evening without taking any notice or showing any appreciation - or just leave - to do the same thing somewhere else.

You did ask *Smiles*


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,ritchie
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

people should almost certainly have had a bath or shower before going and preferably put on a little scent or deoderant and also wears clean clothes. It also helps if no one smokes.

but apart from that ..live and let live !

regards ritchie


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM

Addendum to above:

At the open-mike I used to help run, one of the regulars just left a spare inexpensive guitar in the closet to be the "house guitar" for use by drop-bys and other folks who didn't bring their own. It saved a lot of hassles.

Still Bruce


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Barb'ry
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

There's such a lot of controversy about session etiquette but here's my bit! Personally, I don't mind people joining in by singing or playing (although the right key is good!) I reckon that for some people it is their only opportunity to join in, either through lack of confidence or ability, so it maybe makes them feel more part of the group. Music only sessions or singing only are fine too, as long as it is clear to everyone - particularly the new person who has walked in and could make a fool of him/herself (usually me.)
I suppose my only hates are loud talking and BO! (Oh, and someone joining in the verses with the wrong words, and people using my concertina case for a beer stand and the man who was sat next to me on Sunday that kept farting and..... ok, so I'm very intolerant really!)


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM

Bee Dub,on one occasion at a festival tunes session a guy asked if he could borrow my guitar,as I was playing mandolin at the time.I gave MY
standard reply"If you want to play a Martin Guitar at a session,bring your own" So he went out and came back with a D 35 . I felt a bit of a pillock!!!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:35 PM

and I thought it was just me being intolerant in me old age -

- maybe living through the shared folk revival in the 50/60s and the way everyone learnt, shared and admired together has led me to believe that the people who go to sessions now are of the same mind and want to join together to enjoy a mutual interest - where so many nowadays seem to treat sessions as time to show-off try to play louder than anyone else and generally say "look at me"

"There's no "I" in group"

am I really that old.......


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM

Unfortunately that's about it Clansfolk.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

I'm living on the pension now - it doesn't go so far etc..........


.............In my day,


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:48 PM

Rather than judge, lable, and criticize "bad" manners, our group focuses on the responsibility of leaders and all participants to model, lead, and teach good practices. Lots of old threads on same, worth a look, many problems addressed. Much more rewarding than naming the problems, IMO.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:50 PM

Bee-dubya-ell and Leadfingers, there used to be a monthly session at the "Traveller's Rest" in Central Rotherham, about sixteen or seventeen years ago. Someone there saw my guitar leaning against a chair, said, "I'm just borrowing this, OK ?" and snatched it away, in spite of my feeble protests. He strummed only two chords before realising that I had restrung it left-handed. Aaaagh !


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM

I play at a sessions, and there are people who talk, but we don't mind that because it's a pub.

If you don't want people to talk during the folk session then maybe you shouldn't have it in a pub.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM

I agree that in a pub you expect the clients to talk - but surely fellow musician should have more respect - the talkers are usually the ones who expect everyone to be quiet whilst they perform!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:07 PM

So Bruce....He murdered his father eh? But did he treat your guitar right? Some folks have different morality.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Gypsy
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM

Showboats, who take over, giving no one else a chance to play. Which is why we generally stick to the session we host.........that ain't allowed 'round here.....you just might get lynched.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: LesB
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM

Oh eck I'm going to Moor & Coast this weekend & now i'm frightened to get my box out. What if I make a fox's paw? I'm only a beginner you know.
Cheers

Les


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:27 PM

errrrmmmmmmmm   getting am I?

Been everywhere, seen and done everything -

                         - what a shame I can't remember any of it!

- do as you would be done by is my motto now - grrrrrrr!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM

Susan's got a point, modelling good behaviour is the best. Unfortunately a lot of people don't get subtlety.

My personal thing about talking is, if it's a pub or other non-exclusively-listening venue, OK, but please get out of the music circle far enough that you don't interfere. Frosts my britches especially when someone gets between me and a jamming mate just as we're getting some good communication going.

I find most successful sessions have different qualities as the evening goes on:

  1. a hesitant warm-up phase, much assisted by cheery introductions, offers of drinks, moving chairs to make room without being asked etc.
  2. a full-throttle set as the regulars are all there, and all the tunes that are standards at that session get played
  3. as people start to leave, often just the hard-core few keep at it. There is no need to stick to what everyone knows, more of a sharing, and a newcomer who's still there will be invited to play something that's maybe a bit different. More room for songs as well as tunes. My favourite part of the evening, usually, if I can stay that long.

    You know, I've never had a negative experience lending my Martin to a stranger, or a friend, at a session. I'm the only one who ever damages it.

    W-O


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM

If a better musician than myself asks to borrow my guitar - or even just any musician whom the others present want to hear - I hand over my instrument without any ado. I think that is basic good manners to other musicians and listeners present.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Frankham
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM

I don't think it's a good idea to lend an instrument to strangers. There is a famous rock star who I used to know that would borrow a guitar to do his set and proceed to bang the hell out of it.

I might loan it to someone who I really know is a good musician and would give it proper respect. There was a fiddler who picked up my guitar without permission once. So I picked up his expensive fiddle and started to play along.

As to "rules", they may not work. You have to create the right environment. Unfortunately, you gotta' know the players otherwise you might be in for some bad surprises. I've determined this over years of experience in dealing with musical groups. When they come in "off the street" you are open for problems. At the same time, exclusivity isn't what folk music is about either. But for the good of the group, you have to know the problem folks and either communicate with them outside of the group or don't invite 'em in.

The best musicians are the ones that are very sensitive to the group experience in music. Showboats are not the best musicians. They haven't learned about what it takes to make music even though they may be virtuosos (fast fingers or technique). Leadership is really being a facilitator to get things happening rather than being bossy or having an agenda. The best musicians are ones that use music to facilitate. Witness Pete Seeger leading an audience. He gets it happening in a jam session too! Everybody has a chance.

Bad manners at session mirror bad manners in social relations. I'm sure we all know people that we would prefer not to have at a party.

One thing I think would help and that is to be clear on what kind of a jam it is. A sing-a-round is different than say a slow jam. Some jams emphasize group singing and harmonies, others, individual performances that are shared.

My view has to do with focus. If someone is leading a song, then they are the ones to be primarilly supported and everyone else takes a supporting role. That's the good music manners in my book.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

I hate people who insist on bringing instruments to song sessions, not to accompany themselves, but to accompany others without their sayso!

And I loathe, detest and abhorr those f*^&king rude b^$%£$%£s who will insist on f&%$king NOODLING throughout the evening and over peoples' performances.....

People who jump in with another song, when you've been asked to sing, or taking over the song you are trying to sing by singing very loudly and just running away with it....

But the worst offenders of all are those f^$$king organisers who ask you to come and perform, pay you for doing so and then, when you get up to sing, immediately turn around and talk loudly to everyone else in the place throughout your set, only pausing to clap loudly and whistle when they realise you've stopped!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Bee-dubya-ell,what kind was it? :)

Assuming that when someone suggests a song, they want you to lead it. On occasion I play with an older man with a LOUD voice and a large repertoire; I also play with a fairly diffident man with a lovely but QUIET voice and a tremendous store of songs and remembered lyrics- when the quiet man begins a song and most of us back off our instruments so we can hear him, the loud man barrels in- worse yet, if he doesn't remember the lyrics he makes up his own...

Some other types of behavior one hopes that time and age will improve. Recently, a couple of young girls (16 and 18) have joined us- which is very nice- but the 16 year old hasn't quite grasped the etiquette. One night she said to a banjo player, 'For this next song, I'll have to use your banjo.' BP said, startled, Wha...? She said, 'You don't mind, do you? I always play banjo on this song.' He said, 'Oh. Oh. No, of course not', and handed it over while the rest of us looked on a bit flabbergasted.


i'll need to use


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

Perfume is pretty rude. I once had to accompany a bloke who had on so much aftershave my nose was burning.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:52 PM

How bizarre- I swear I didn't write that last scrap of a phrase ("i'll need to use") How is it possible that someone else's words are on my post??


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM

Scratch that- given the subject lines, I must have written it.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: alison
Date: 01 May 03 - 12:36 AM

I hate people who walk in (or out), shuffle chairs etc when someone is in the middle of a song / tune / poem..... this isn't an amplified gig just a song circle....... so it is very offputting for whoever is performing.....

I don't see what harm it can do to wait until the end of the song and then go where you need to......

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Leeder
Date: 01 May 03 - 12:55 AM

Our singers' circle has a mix of people who sing unaccompanied and those who accompany themselves. An unwritten rule is that the musicians don't play along unless invited. An a capella singer can be thrown off by accompaniment, particularly when it tends to force them into a strait jacket of rhythm or key.

As someone who does both on occasion, I tend to announce the key if I'm inviting other people to play along. I usually don't do so if it's a complicated chord pattern (or if I want to show off my own playing).

Occasionally someone doen't know the rule, either a newcomer or an old-timer who's clueless (yes, we have them!). This can be awkward. For my own part, I'm not confrontational, but try to set an example. If I'm capable of playing along, and choose not to, you'd think the message would get through. But it doesn't always work. Sometimes there's a tactful way of making the point, but I can't think of one just now.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 May 03 - 01:20 AM

Miss Manners sets the perfect stage, and Minotaur Pete steals the show
Solo Sam noodles your stir fry in doodles, But won't lead a song... "gotta go"

The showboat's appeal, the spotlight will steal... I like a few magical moments
Get's the energy up and lifts up your cup, And charisma can wake the indolents

My feverish peeves, in my work dirty sleeves, are not numerous but here are a few
Its Cliques without caring, and reluctance to sharing, and partners with not much to do

So reach out with your singing, we'll the rafters be ringing, We've got to enjoy being free
And the egos we'll spare when we dote on their dare, give the bashful their due, ..and a spree
ttr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 May 03 - 02:06 AM

Just to satisfy Rick and Ebbie's curiosity about the fellow who murdered his father....

The guitar in question was my beat-up old LoPrinzi. It was (and still is) in such sad shape that I wasn't too worried about anyone hurting it, but the guy actually did treat it with care. I seriously doubt it had anything to do with his committing murder a few hours later. (Unless it just made him want a guitar of his own so badly that he went home and demanded that his father give him the money to buy one and then shot him when he refused.)   

And I'm actually not as protective of my instruments as my earlier post may have indicated. I'll loan an instrument to anyone that I think knows how to treat it well. It's the drunks that leave their barstools and come staggering over wanting to play a song that raise my hackles.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:20 AM

I don't have many hang-ups at sessions but I do feel uncomfortable when some showboat cuts right across the established flow or nature of the session.
I'll lend my guitar to people I know or I believe will treat it properly. Trouble is it tends to learn chords I don't know!
I was at a sing-a-round once when mine was the only guitar there and it ended going round the room. That I didn't mind too much, except it came back in a different tuning, (I'd been getting a drink at the time.) That DID annoy me, it was a twelve string!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Egal.
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:47 AM

If someone wishes to use one of my instruments at a club or session i will of course oblige them, after all, they may have travelled some distance to attend, and by public transport carrying an instrument it's no easy deal, also they might just have accidentally just found the session etc etc.
Why alienate prospective attendees? is it some people are upset when an able player wants to share his/her talent?
Niggardly attitudes spoil occasions.
Oh yes, and if the player happens to be a fabulous singer and a wizard guitarist i warmly applaud their skill and compliment them on
having taken the time to learn to play properly, not slag them off in cyberspace like some losers here.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:36 AM

Whilst I don't mind lending anybody my guitar if they haven't brought on to a singaround, I do get miffed when it comes back and the strings and neck have acquired a coating of peanut/crisp grease and beer making it virtually unplayable for me without wiping it down for half an hour with industrial degreaser.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:40 AM

My top favourite most worsted bad manners things are:

Guitarists playing random lead over the top of a song just because they can identify(ish) the chords & melody and have a few licks that they think will fit.

People who come late to singarounds/open mics and then expect to "catch up" by doing extra sets late in the evening. Those of us that get there on time & work on getting the atmosphere going REALLY resent the "not yet" brigade. Ditto those that have to be begged to perform.

Percussionists that impose their own rhythm onto your song. Especially those that impose the same rhythm over everything all night.

People who haven't bothered to prepare, and think its OK to sing something from paperwork for the very first time - along with halts & restarts & tailings off when they find they don'd know the songs as well as they had thought they did.

Actually - most things are bearable really - but it does us good to have a bit of a soundoff thread every now & then to get it off our chests.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:05 AM

I would tentatively suggest that many of the bad manners raised above can be virtually eliminated by the leadership of the person responsible for running the session.

My sessions are a famously informal mix of songs and tunes, but I endeavour to ensure that everyone has their fair crack of the whip, regardless of experience or musical ability. My regulars are aware of this.

If singers would like to sing without the benefit of accompaniment, they politely request it before they start the song. If people are getting too rowdy, or talking through a quiet song, a quiet word in the shell-like usually does the trick. And if somebody is playing loudly over everything (even in the wrong key) I have been known to take that person quietly to one side and politely ask if they might consider backing off a little.

The borrowing and swapping of instruments is commonplace, and should be at the discretion of the owner of said instrument. There is little I can do about this. In fact, I'm a major culprit of said crime.

This approach tends to keep good order, promotes a varied session, and generally, nobody gets upset! I would hope that my regulars agree with this. They keep coming back....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:34 PM

Noodling is probably the most disrespectful thing anyone can do. Especially when a singer is obviously trying to hear the note needed to start on (or find it in their head, or actually HEAR their accompaniment). And it's sooooo unnecessary. Don't attempt to play along with a capella songs.

It's nice if a new person, whether they came specifically for the session or just wandered in off the street and discovered it, would introduce him/herself to the session leader, find out what the accepted session protocol is and, before just jumping right in with a song they can only remember half the words to (and seem to think no one's ever heard before), a) ask if the song's been done already that evening and b) ask if the song "belongs" to a regular. We enjoy hearing new people's versions/renditions of songs, but it's nice to have them ask first. Oh, and maybe wait a minute or two until they're invited to sing. (And they WILL be.)

Our sessions are in a pub, so we expect a lot of peripheral talking amongst the "listeners" (usually the loudest ones are the ones who complain they can't hear), but it's really impolite for someone to stand behind the singer and try to carry on a conversation on the other side of someone singing harmony (or anybody in the group, for that matter!).

Try not to stab anyone with your bow. Avoid slamming the singer's face with your guitar neck. (I once brought along a fencing mask to make a point.) Don't spill the beer tray of the waitress who is busy saving people from dying of thirst. DON'T BLOCK THE WAITRESSES, FER PETE'S SAKE!

Linn


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:24 PM

Noodling? Is that different from canoodling, which can indeed be distracting.

People who don't realise that the drum follows the tune rather than setting the rhythm, at least in Irish music.

People who assume that all singers want to have an instrumental accompaniment. And people who don't realise that accompanying by definition means listening to the person they are accompanying, and modifying what you play to fit in.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: wilco
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:53 PM

What bothers me the most is when people act like they don't want to hear about my grandchildren, when its my turn, and they don't realy look at the photos that I hold up. Boy!!! Some People!!!!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:55 PM

It all boils to one thing. Bodhrans. Leave them at home.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:41 PM

Bodhrans? Only let a bongo player move in and start slapping away, and you start to long for the good old bodhran. (At any rate one in the hands of someone who knows that bodhrans are meant to follow, never to lead.)


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 03 - 08:00 PM

I remember one evening our old Portland Folk Club was having a Halloween get-together at the old watchtower on Munjoy Hill; you need to envision the song circle sitting within a wooden octagonal structure rather dimly lit, taking turns singing ghost songs or telling scary stories. Then, Nancy came in...Nancy who usually just sat on the outside of the circle and listened. This time she had a tapedeck and an inflatable Frankenstein's monster. When her turn came around, she turned on the tape deck and danced with her friend to the dolful sounds of "Monster Mash"! We were stunned but deeply appreciative of Nancy for providing a moment we will all carry to our graves. Thanks, Nancy!

My point? Well, be sure to keep your circle open enough so individuals still feel free to experiment.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: ooh-aah
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:15 AM

It's the setentious look on the faces of bodhran players that I can't stand.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:32 AM

People have the right to make as much noise as you.

The session that I go to on a Tuesday at Irvine, there are people either talking, or playing the fruit machine, or dare I say buying drink that you hear the till being opened.
But you expect that in a pub, after all it is a business and the owner has take a living as well.

All this noise that we hear, doesn't annoy us because we know it is a business and the owner can't just stop people from making a noise.

And for all these people who complain about the noise in pubs or clubs then get a life.

Don't let in annoy you just ignore it.

Tom.
I say leave you all in peace.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: MickT
Date: 02 May 03 - 09:25 AM

An apt timing for this topic as some of the performers in our club have really wound me up lately.....

First the people who get up and hog the floor for twenty minutes 15 minutes before closing time after being asked to do a quick set, when there's another 2 guests still to go on.

Second, coming in and disrupting the place in the middle of the session, bringing armfuls of instruments, leaving them all over the floor so people can trip over them, taking over whatever table they descend on with capos, fingerpicks, whistles, songsheets etc.

Thirdly the ignorant bastards who hear something slightly bluegrassy and complain 'there's too much country for me'. Substitute bluegrassy/country for anything slightly off the beaten track of the folk tradition. What makes out club successful is the mix of material performed.

I could go on... I appreciate that the organiser should take reponsibility for controlling much of this. We have a rotating list of organisers and perhaps we need to draw up some house rules...


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 02 May 03 - 09:48 AM

Pet hates are:

1 Anyone talking/playing a different tune.
2 Getting up to go to the loo just as someone starts a song -particularly bad if its the person who has just introduced them or is running the session
3. Session leader not doing their homework on guests - Ive seen a well known artist introduced as someone else.
4. Know it alls who, as soon as someone finishes a song or tune, begins to disect it or tell everyone present that it wasn't the original tune/words etc etc.
5. People who insist on trying to accompany a song they've never heard before, or when its obvious that the singer does not want accompaniment.
6. People who try and harmonize with every song they hear - it puts me off when I have difficulty singing in one key when someone is singing in another.

Overall, I believe that anyone -especially newcomers- who is brave enough to sing or play in public, deserves a minimum of respect from those present especially the more experienced people.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:18 AM

Hey, get Bat Goddess!! WAITRESSES??????????? Ever bin in an English pub, Bat? I wish. I'll have a word with the landlord, who knows..?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:32 AM

ritchie,

A true story. I was there.

A person had a job that apparently involved intense physical labor and copious sweating. He would go directly from that job to a music jam. The other participants in the jam began to dread his appearance. He never seemed to notice that after he sat down, the chairs around him would magically empty. Each of us thought we were the only one who noticed or cared about the BO until one evening (when he wasn't there) someone happened to mention it. The floodgates were opened and the jam hostess announced that she was going to do something about it.

I was at the jam when next he appeared. The jam hostess met him at the door and drew him aside. She quietly related to him the nature of the complaints she had heard, then offered to let him use the shower and some clean clothes from her husband. He took the shower, changed his clothes, participated in the evening's music, and was never seen again.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOLKSINGER'S LAMENT (David Diamond)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:53 AM

An approrpiate song while we're collecting more thoughts:

By David Diamond (1984), a former member of The Boarding Party
As somewhat adapted by Charlie Ipcar (1993)
Tune: "The Limerick Rake"

THE FOLKSINGER'S LAMENT


Come all ye folksingers, all in a throng,
And I'll sing ye a ditty that's turgid and long,
With rhymes that don't rhyme and with meter that's a little bit too long,
And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober.
But 'tis my turn to sing, and I've had one or two,
And ye swine in the back best not head for the loo,
You can put up with me for I've put up with you,
And I'd like ye to join in the chorus.

There are ninety-two verses, I'll stop and explain,
For I learned them this morning with infinite pain;
I'll just mumble the ones I've forgotten again,
And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober.
Although me guitar I relentlessly bring,
'Tis never in tune when it's my turn to sing;
So I'll go acappella with this little thing,
And I'd like ye to join in the chorus.

Such symbols as cuckoos and valleys so deep,
My intent from the ears of the innocent to keep;
You know what I mean if you've not gone to sleep,
And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober.
And after the sex they'll be lots of gore,
With choking and stabbing, and a corpse on the floor;
But before all ye squeamish ones rush for the door,
I'd like ye to join in the chorus.

I tell everyone I collected this lay,
From an ancient agrarian all covered with hay;
Who lay on the floor of the pub and did say,
"'Tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober."
But the truth to tell, I stole this refrain;
Its plot's so complex that it boggles the brain,
And next month I'm planning to sing it again,
And I'd like ye to join in the chorus.

I scribbled it down on the back of a sheet,
That I tore from the roll as I sat on the seat,
Off the back of the club where them folksingers meet,
And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober.
I take it 'round with me to the clubs where I go,
And ask at the door, "Hey, can I join ye show?"
You was the first ones that didn't shout "No!"
And I'd like ye to join in the chorus.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 May 03 - 01:24 PM

Banjoman,

In my experience way too many harmonizers seem to think that no knowledge of the tune is required if they want to sing some ghastly thing they call a "harmony".

Not according to Ginny Hawker.

But that's a whole 'nother thread.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:56 PM

I like that one, Charley. Especially the subtle touch that there isn't any chorus.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:39 PM

Thanks! I only dare lead this song (The Folksinger's Lament) once a year for any session/circle/song swap for obvious reasons.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Mudlark
Date: 02 May 03 - 09:38 PM

Great song, Charley...wish I could hear you sing it. Posting the words in a prominent place at every session might be a good reminder about etty-ket.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:07 PM

from time to time, mr happy's music therapy session suffers the slings & arrows noted above.

mr happy never omes dowwwn really hard on offenders, cos he wants to keep people enjoying themselves but will quietly inform the uninitiated, inept, or prima donnas in the error of their ways. up to now i've found this approach to be most effective.

if you're reasonable & avoiding angryness & confrontational attitude - most will acquiesce & play the game. of course there're sometimes loud drunks who've lost control of themselves- so the recourse here is that the landlady or bar staff chuck them out.

see also

thread.cfm?threadid=51279


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:25 PM

Massive expulsions of ................ by the person sitting on the stool (as it were) on stage have always bothered me a whole lot. Luckily, the few times I've seen (and heard) this happen, said performer had at least a few fans there. They cleared the air poste haste.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Irishsongs@adelphia.net
Date: 03 May 03 - 12:57 AM

We usually play in a venue that's open to the public and we form a semi-circle. Some musicians insist on closing the circle and playing with their backs to the audience,insisting that it's "Traditional".(It's just plain RUDE.) In the past we've had people who jumped in and started a tune without regard to whose turn it was and people who picked the longest song possible and played a 20 minute solo. We also have folks who string together a number of tunes and play the A and B parts a half dozen times each. Then there are the folks who insist that every song has to come out of a certain list, or a certain book, and be played only in the key it is written. (Rise Up Singing is a great book but it's not the only source of material available.)and I don't like people who clutter the floor with instruments and cases of every description.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,big john
Date: 03 May 03 - 04:41 AM

I was once at a club in the north east singing or trying to acapela, when a twonk with a gitar decided to acompany me waveing didnt stop him the hand over the ear didnt stop him my standing up phased him not he was slightly miffed when i reached down and detuned his gitar though


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: ManxFiddle
Date: 03 May 03 - 05:45 AM

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet. I can't stand it when non musicians or musicians who aren't intending to play occupy seats when there's someone who does want to play who can't get a seat. I was at a session at Cobblestones in Dublin recently where this guy made a great show of plonking himself down in his seat and he proceeded to just sit there for the whole evening without so much as touching his guitar. It was extremely annoying because they were playing some great tunes and I don't get to sessions in Dublin that much. I eventually got a seat, only for this guy from Iran to start playing his native drum right next to me (We're talking bodhran meets very loud tambourine). I was nae impressed.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 May 03 - 06:13 AM

Bad manners and inconsideration for others are not generally rewarded.

At musical gatherings, long- running problems like showboating or insisting on being the only one to sing at a tune session are always rewarded by our loud applause!

Noodling, talking over tunes/songs and many of the other gripes listed here, are also rewarded, at least by our general acceptance of them (on the night anyway).

We do this mainly because we feel it would be impolite for us not to do so...No matter what the original transgression was.

And often should then someone decide to publicly point the transgression out to the original transgressor - they are in danger of emmbarrassing us all and of then being seen as the transgressor..........In most parts of the ultra-polite UK, anyway.

Although I usually prefer a positive approach, the solution I feel is to post all our gripes and grumbles, in the hope that folk will at last recognise that their particular action is annoying to many and that those who insist on doing them, will modify their actions.

And that when and where we see them, we should not continue to reward bad manners and inconsideration as most of these gripes have been with us for a long time - perhaps too long?

Bodhrans or banjos, eggs or boxes (or even egg boxes) are not the real problem. It is not our eggs that we should try to leave behind - but our egos.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Egal
Date: 03 May 03 - 06:48 AM

**Thirdly the ignorant bastards who hear something slightly bluegrassy and complain 'there's too much country for me'. Substitute bluegrassy/country for anything slightly off the beaten track of the folk tradition. What makes out club successful is the mix of material performed.**



RIGHT ON MickT,    Where's your club?


    Sounds like my kind of venue.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: MickT
Date: 03 May 03 - 02:28 PM

Gotta be careful here. Some culprits patrol Mudcat, Shall we say Kent?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 03 - 11:09 PM

Thanks for the song posted above, Charley Noble. I like it.

A manners story: I was at a Highland Games once, where a young lady of seventeen or so had been invited to play. We were seated around her, listening, when a drop-dead handsome young man of about 22 started playing another harp. He was obviously used to being indulged by everyone around him. (He was about a foot taller than her.) All she did was stop playing and smile a frozen smile at him for a long, long time. He stumbled to a stop and apologized.

Silence was truly golden at that moment.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 May 03 - 10:28 AM

I don't like people who come along to sessions and play music & sing. It interferes with my drinking and conversation!!!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,ghost
Date: 04 May 03 - 12:29 PM

It seems, from the ever-increasing list of don'ts that have been accumulating here that many would benefit from performing on one of the Paltalk sessions.

First off there's anonymity. You get to use an alias so that others can only know you via that name and only have access to the info about your profile if you ok it.

There are audio only sessions and sessions with cameras or any mixture of the two. So, you can just hear, or see and hear who is in the room with you. Cameras will show just a still shot of the person unless you subscribe $$ for the advanced version. Then you'll be able to be seen in full motion (as full motion as these little computer cameras will allow anyway).

With Paltalk you can sit in the comfort of your own abode without smelling someone's offensive BO, perfume or cologne, except your own of course. And there in the comfort and serenity of your own little home you won't have to hear someone's footsteps as they cross the floor to the loo or where ever else they may wish to go during your song or set. You won't hear their loud drunken talking, glasses clinking or instrument noodling either because only one person at a time can be heard by the others that are in the session. Each one takes a turn having control of the mic which allows you to be heard by everyone else in the room.

You might get distracted by the typing in the text chat portion while you play but there's even an option that allows you to turn that part off or you can turn your monitor off until you're finished or minimize the window so it doesn't throw you off your game. The only way that the group can respond in real time to performances is via the text chat part and listeners comment via that function with applause and compliments after each performer finishes.

Another good thing about the sessions at Paltalk is that there is something for everyone Irish, bluegrass, blues, folk, you name it. You play to an international audience of listeners. And if the person hosting the room finds you offensive or inappropriate or if you are breaking any of the room rules established by the person hosting the room in any way, too bluegrassy, too bluesy, too jazzy, too folky, too Irishy he can just bounce you out of the room without so much as a howdeedo or thanks for stopping. You can even permanently block repeat offenders from appearing in your performance room so you never have to deal with them again.

So, for those of you who have a more than passionate fancy or need to control every aspect about your entertainment environment your dreams have come true, and they're open 24 hrs a day, seven days a week so there's no need to worry about those session hogs eating up all the time because you've got all the time in world.

There's also a password preference that allows the host to keep out all but those who are invited and know the password. So you can have your cake and eat it too. No more drunks asking to borrow your instruments or people joining in where they aren't wanted. Be the captain of your own ship! Create your own destiny! Don't delay! Be the first one on your block to establish your own exclusive members only club and thumb your nose at the rest of world. Why torture yourself further, putting up with the riff-raff of the world dashing your dreams of a perfect session to bits, when salvation is at last at hand? Why are you still here reading this when you could be at Paltalk playing in the climate controlled comfort of your own living room with your kind of folks? People who think like you do and don't emit noxious gases in the middle of song while standing too close.

No, I do not get paid to advertise for Paltalk.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 May 03 - 09:06 PM

Ghost-

Well, why don't you put that in the form of a set of lyrics? We could give it a try the next time we get together at the Marble Bar ("At the Marble Bar you gather no moss!"). Actually, the Marbe Bar closed down some 15 years ago but you have to admit it was a great line.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Melani
Date: 04 May 03 - 10:21 PM

I was reminded recently of a guy I've encountered a couple of times who doesn't seem to have learned everything he needed to know in kindergarten--seems to have skipped sharing. He's a great singer with an unusual repertoire, very outgoing and not a pain to listen to at all--but once he gets the floor, he goes on way too long. Because he has vision problems, he does not pick up on any subtle visual cues.

On the plus side, one of our regulars who is also a noted floor-hog just did the opposite. Taking his turn in a crowded session with limited time, he chose what is normally a rather long song, but announced that he was doing the "short" version and left out two-thirds of the verses. Seems odd not to have just picked something shorter, but I guess he was set on that one. Anyway, his increased sensitivity was encouraging.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: toadfrog
Date: 04 May 03 - 11:11 PM

Charley, what a great song! There are two examples of bad manners I just can't stand.

First, loud booing, hissing and attempting to hoot the musician off the stage is just poor. At least, people should let them finish the piece first, and express their displeasure afterward!!
Second, so far as I am concerned, spitting is very bad form. It's an abuse of hospitality to spit on the floor, I don't care what people say! But spitting on the musicians is INTOLERABLE. IMHO, people who spit the on musicians should be firmly told to leave!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:55 AM

Over the last four or five years an increasing annoince for me is the number of singers and players who are not that good at the best of times but assume that overconsumption of alcohol is not only mamditory but transformes them into showstopping session favorites rather than crashing bores and time wasters..... and as for any instrumentalis who plays unbidden while someone is singing !!! well bring back thumb screws or try superglueing their fingers together.
ps. Just back from Girvan Fest. where ,unfortunately, the usual crashing bores played out their regular, "your ma best pal in the world", act. The singing sessions in the Southfield were packed out and great fun. The "unoficial festival" at the Queens was as vaired as usual, the back room, if you got in early enough, was heaving all weekend. Back at the "real festival" the guests excelled them selves and the quality and excitement at the concerts proved onceagain that smaller venues realy give far better value to an audence than overpriced, over hyped and over subsidised souless Concert Hall barns (no matter how Royal the professionals organisers may act).


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: le cheffie
Date: 05 May 03 - 02:32 PM

I find that artists and hangers on who hang around at the back of a venue talking loudly whilst other people are performing annoying.
People have sat and listeneed to you, so please let them listen to every one else performing.

Nick


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 05 May 03 - 02:42 PM

Just the %^^^^&(((((($#(@#holes that insirt on trying to play to a cappella songs. Oh yeah and the ones who do solo stuff at song circles, learn a couple of chorus songs will yah. Oh and the ones who spend all night TUNING.
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:47 PM

And I really hate the ones that drool, and then just shake their heads instead of decently wiping their mouths with a tissue.

Glad that Dave Diamond's "Folksinger's Lament" is appreciated. Kendall has another take on singersongwriters with "The Folksinger," a poignant parody of "The Boxer."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,McMusic
Date: 06 May 03 - 02:48 AM

Hope no one minds if I add to this thread. It's been a long, long time since I tuned in here. Of all the things that most grate (to me) in jam sessions, singarounds, etc. are those who cannot keep simple time or tempo. It's an absolute killer when someone is a beat behind or either speeds up or drags everyone down. Of course, these two things are also a pretty good way of uninviting unwelcome crashers, too :o).


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:20 AM

We usually play in a venue that's open to the public and we form a semi-circle. Some musicians insist on closing the circle and playing with their backs to the audience,insisting that it's "Traditional".(It's just plain RUDE.)

Amen to that and this highlights the problem I have with the idea that 'session etiquette' should be anything other than plain common sense, good manners and consideration.

Sometimes this term used as a cover, usually by folk who feel that being seen as a musician is more important that making music. By claiming as above, that something that is not common sense, good manners and consideration, but indeed the very opposite - is the way things should be done.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 03 - 04:55 AM

A local session in my town has been stifled by the rulemakers and session etiquette police. Being held in a pub, it's only natural for people to want to talk, including (if it's not to loud of course), the musicians. The people who like to think they're in charge of the session don't like talkers, people who don't know the tunes but who are learning, people who don't listen to their jokes intently etc etc.

Well, many musos upsticksed and went to another local, where we let anyone join in, you can talk (it is a social occasion too), you can start any tune you want, are free to sing what you want and as long as you are enthusiastic and friendly are very welcome. In other words, much the same as The Shambles mentioned above. Shushers are treated with (loud) scorn and contempt, and much questioning of parentage. And members of the public can sit where they want even if it means some of the musos have to stand up (first come, first served). Suffice to say our sessions are fun, informal, and often the room is full.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 06 May 03 - 07:49 AM

How about those ******* stds who ask you for the words of a song which you have been singing for a long time (especially if his name is Percy) and then turn up the following week and proceed to absolutely ruin it. I learned my lesson on this one, and now refer would be hackers to the publiucation/record/mudcat etc if the really want it.
ps. Percy you know who you are - and you'll never perfect a "scouse" accent


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: HuwG
Date: 06 May 03 - 08:42 AM

Dear toadfrog, Charley Noble ...


Q How do you stop a musician spitting ?
A Turn the grill down.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 06 May 03 - 08:52 AM

Eating crisps - you wouldn't take crisps into the Royal Festival Hall.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Beardy
Date: 06 May 03 - 10:29 AM

As someone who has been designated a 'professional' audience; I dont sing or play; 2 major annoyances.
1) Other singers who talk loudly throughout everybody elses songs but expect silence when its their turn.
2) People getting up and leaving during songs.
Experienced both in the Tap & Spile at Whitby during the Moor & Coast Festival this weekend. The main culprits were regular festival goers and should have known better.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:53 PM

I must admit the biggest grumble I have about sessions - especially at festivals - is about people who join a session, sing their turn and then beetle off to 'star' again elsewhere. You can usually spot them - they normally wait for roughly two songs after their's before going, just to be polite I think! HUH!

ZM


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Schantieman
Date: 06 May 03 - 02:01 PM

We had a real star at the Bothy on Sunday.

Breezed in during a song in the first half and chatted loudly to Clive - who gently ushered him out. Reappeared after the interval, inquiring (while Clive was introducing soemone else) when he could play, then alternated between wandering round the room and chatting loudly with his friend.

When he eventually did get on he was absolutely AWFUL - guitar out of tune, no real fingering, didn't know more than half a verse of anything! We listened politely for about a minute and then started some good natured barracking.   We enjoyed it.   He was pissed!

S


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Diva
Date: 06 May 03 - 02:23 PM

Just back from Girvan too.....and it was superb!!! What bugs me is the people who talk over singers, now as a rule,in somewhere like the Southfield,its full of singers and being well mannered folk they listen and join in at the appropriate moments. However there is always one!!!! and he was given a resounding skelp on the beam to shut him up...didn't bloody work.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 May 03 - 05:29 PM

Probably the spookiest session I ever dropped into was in Bristol (UK) at the White Horse Tavern (?). The session was in the backroom and was pitch black except for the lighted ends of cigarettes. I stumbled bravely in between songs, being somewhat late (because it takes more time to drive on the wrong side of the road than the correct side), and found an empty seat or empty lap; I wasn't really sure which. But some time later a disembodied voice asked if there was something I wanted to lead. So I gave them Obray Ramsey's "Rain & Snow" to polite applause. The next time around I asked if anyone knew "Dead Dog Scrumpi" and there was this shocked silence and then another disembodied voice admitted to being familiar with the song and delivered it to my hungry ears. Hours later I managed to crawl out of the session, into the blinding brightness of the taproom. What a find bunch of fellows, I thought, whomever they were!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hayduke
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:17 AM

Oh yeah, borrowing instruments. Occasionally I get folks wanting to borrow/try one of my harmonicas. Ewwwwwwww!
(that's when I make references, in passing, about blood tests etc.)


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:46 AM

Noodlers - in a regulated or a music session, not really a problem when they are controlled by the organiser or other instruments can overpower them.

In an unorganised session - a sing up when you have a song/tune type and it's gone quiet session, they are fatal. The informality of that type of session is its' own worst enemy. An enthusiastic noodler can take over an evening like that because no-one is sure if they are going to actually perform or just fart about in the foreground. Many times I've wanted to sing an appropriate song, only to have a bloody noodler fill the silence before I've got my mouth open (no comments on the lines of 'they have to be bloody quick then' please!), or have started before I've finished the last verse/chorus!

And have you noticed that noodlers tend to be guitar players? AND they continue conversing whilst noodling!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: alison
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:21 AM

shakey eggs and fruit to accompany everything!!!... no further comment


slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:24 AM

Ah yes, but the action required to produce noise from the shaky banana is always good for a laugh!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Gervase
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:01 AM

Noodling? You mean pointless plinking on strings and premature ejaculation tune-ups? Agreed, a major pain!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:42 AM

I know someone who genuinely believes that he's limbering up his fingers when noodling, and that its a good thing to do!!!! Doesn't realise at all that everyone is politely waiting for it to develop into something.......
Same person has been known to cut across someone elses (admittedly slightly hesitant) start of a song with a jaunty "right - I'll do one then."
Some people are just oblivious!!! I know that its not intentional, and that they'd be horrified if they did realise what they were doing. Which is why I'm too chicken to take the bull by the horns & explain. Which I suppose makes me the bad person really........ - but how on earth do you explain what they've done without making them so embarassed that they never dare come out again?

Mink


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 07 May 03 - 06:13 AM

chordus interuptus - very dangerous.....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:12 PM

I've a number of comments on this (sorry).

The problem with what we're disussing is what sort of jam/session we're talking about?

Having been involved in a pub 'session' for a while in Surrey (England) a lot of the problems already stated above are not new to me.

What's needed is a strong co-ordinator (MC, leader, etc). if there is one a lot of these problems will dissappear.   Control in certain circumstances may not be a bad thing.   Examples - if someone is asked if they would like to sing a song and asks to borrow an intrument, thay can be told no.   The instumental sections are controled.   People who are talking too loudly within the 'session' area can be quietly asked to move.

Having said the above there was once a loud talker at the bar and when I asked him to move or sing a song, he sang, and was good and came back and became a regular.

As to straight music sessions - as a none intrument player a lot of the complaint that have been posted I have to agree with.

But a tale - During a musicsions session at Redcar ff during the late seventies early eighties a friend and I realised that 'some' people had just discovered Boudrans and where joining in everything.

my friend started it, he asked to look at someone boudran and after looking at it put it under his seat, so I started doing the same.   God love those people, because we looked threatening they didn't like to ask for them back until they were leaving.   We upset some people but it was a good session.

paulo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:36 PM

Luckily it is not a common problem but what has really pissed me off at bar sessions is people who expect the pub's other customers, who have no interest in the music, to behave as if they were in a concert hall. If you want total hush, hire a private room.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:48 AM

What's needed is a strong co-ordinator (MC, leader, etc). if there is one a lot of these problems will dissappear.   Control in certain circumstances may not be a bad thing.   Examples - if someone is asked if they would like to sing a song and asks to borrow an intrument, thay can be told no.   The instumental sections are controled.   People who are talking too loudly within the 'session' area can be quietly asked to move.

I know a lot of people do subscribe to this idea but as the last post points out, a lot do not.

It has been pointed out that these are (largely) public places. The very attraction of them to many is that they are free from the control of one individual or too many rules etc. With that freedom - there is always a risk and a price to pay. The result is that some nights are dire but that some others are pure magic..........

If the controlled and lead concept is OK for you - then to do this in one's home, where you can impose whatever you like on people and they can choose if they are prepared to tolerate this - or not, is acceptable.

I would argue that this level of overt control in a place where the public are free to come and go - participate or not - talk or not - is not really acceptable as a solution.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:56 AM

What I REALLY REALLY get annoyed about is when someone with a dominating instrument & a tendency to "take over" starts to accompany you on a song & then stops for a small chat, then starts again, then stops for a small chat, then starts again.... etc etc.
Its hard to sing through gritted teeth.....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:56 AM

Ah, when that happens, I start to sing 'the Cruel Mother' with props.....

"she's taken out her little penknife......"

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:04 AM

Shouldn't that be "wee penknife"? ;~)

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:14 AM

Charley! That's wicked.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Clean Supper
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:41 AM

-I did this one once, and cringed about for months: insisting that someone sing "her" (regular) song when she has said she doesn't feel like it tonight.
-When you make a social error in a session and no-one tells you about it but everyone sits there visibly disapproving in some private but obviously unanimous way.
-When someone doesn't make any effort to find out how this session works before they start.
-When a session in general seems to think that how to behave in a session situation is a human instinct and anyone who hasn't worked it out within a fourteenth of a second after walking in must be suffering from a congenital deformity and is probably psychopathic.

That is why this thread is extremely useful - already there have been gripes about
1) B.O. but also perfumes (a surprising number of people are highly allergic)
2) talkers but also anti-talking police
3) more generally lack of consideration but also intolerance

How to behave will always be a compromise between the extremes of "everything's OK and anyone who tries to regulate my behaviour is a fascist" and the equally intolerable "anything which requires the least amount of patience or forgiveness is unacceptable". Obviously good manners is finding the local agreement on where to draw the line (and how braod the line is).


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:05 AM

I suppose that if you see everyone disapproving & don't know why then you'd have to find a kind looking person & ask them what you did wrong.
As to insisting on that song - sounds like a compliment to me!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:10 AM

it's hard sometimes to know whether the person is in a "coax me" mood or just doesn't want to do it.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,ghost
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:37 AM

I'll repeat myself for those of you who have not read my previous post.

If you can't afford to hire or rent a room, Paltalk is free.

You can have just as many rules as your heart desires. No need to give them up when you use Paltalk. Some folks just can't change. There's no need for you to deal with their inability to understand your vision of what should happen at your session, jam, song circle or open mic. You can have it all on Paltalk, privacy, anonymity, security, and peace of mind to focus your energy on what you wish, music, song, recitation etc.

At last you'll be in control, total control, of your session, jam, song circle etc. You can create your own venue and if someone doesn't like your scene you can apply all of those previously mentioned tactics of persuasion or just play hardball with the offenders and give them the boot, hook or what you call it locally. If they are not happy about being asked to behave you can even permanently block their entrance into your place.

They can, afterall, go and start their own room at Paltalk and develope whatever style of venue they wish to create, one that accepts their kind of folks. There's room for a room for everyone. No one needs to be left out. If you don't like what you find start a place of your own at Paltalk.

Think of it as a big hotel where people open up their rooms to invite guests in to join in on what is happening in each room, music, discussion, just about anything. All the guests have an opportunity to wander from room to room. Each room can have an open door policy or it can be sealed and only allow certain folks to enter.

So instead of venting your bad manner observations and frustrations why not use that creative energy that you all have to do something constructive and invent a new venue of your own, one where you're the boss and what you say goes.

Show the world your stuff not just those few who happen to stumble in to the pub that evening. Be a pioneer and stake your claim on the wide open internet prairie. If reality doesn't suit you, create your own alternative. People pay thousands each year to be a member of socially exclusive clubs. Now you can create your own for free.

Again, I'm not paid to advertise for Paltalk in any way. With this thread nearing the onehundredth post I simply felt compelled to offer an alternative to what seems to be a lot of pent up frustration out there. That kind of tension can't be good for the ticker or your music. Unlax, mellow out, take deep breaths slowly in and out, count to ten and before you grab the fireplace poker, uke or guitar to el kabong that certain annoying somebody, get a grip, get a hat and hightail it over to Paltalk. You'll thank yourself afterward for being so internet savvy.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:06 AM

Nah! Don't fancy an internet session. Anyway - there's bound to be a hundred and one things to be irritated about there as well!
This is a "get it off your chest" thread, not a "we hate pub sessions & everyone in them" thread.
Having the chance to let off steam here means we will be better able to enjoy the pub scene with all its imperfections. - and it might throw up some useful strategies for tactful interventions.
I can't imagine that my internet connection would allow for any sound quality anyway.
I'm sure it serves a purpose though - and I hope you're having tons of fun on it ghost.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,ghost
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:04 AM

Well mink, I didn't want to mention it, but you're right about sound quality. It depends on a lot of variables that can't be controlled via the web. So I guess there is one barrier over which you have no control with online sessions. But from what I understand, after reading these posts, sound quality is difficult in many of those in the flesh sessions due to noisy patrons and out of tune participants.

I have what I consider to be a fairly good machine and high speed service but the instrument voices are not very faithfully reproduced through my speakers, oddly, unless the player is using amplification. I suppose that can be a source of irritation to some who long for the perfection of acoustic purity.

My tougue in cheek posts were merely to poke fun at those who take this pursuit so seriously as to allow it to frustrate them.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:15 AM

Ah but ghost - its a passion & I can't help but take it seriously!

I'm off to a brand new song/tune session tonight in my local - which is a fairly rough sort of a pub. God alone knows what spleen I shall be venting tomorrow!!! Watch this space.....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: JennyO
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:44 PM

What Clean Supper said reminded me of a session I was at when someone (no, it wasn't you, Paul) said:

"Sing us your song, Jenny" - (as if I only had one!)

I said "which one?" (acting a little dumb because I know this guy and I had a pretty fair idea which one he wanted me to sing.)

"Er, er, that one......you know the one...."

I finally put him out of his misery and sang it, although I would have rather sung something else.

Am I just mean, or what?

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:46 PM

No you aren't being mean. As a singer you want to share, and if you only sing one song then how can you share all the others you learned?

I get really pissed off when particular singers only ever do one song, usually one that they think they do well but don't actually. I know someone who can't keep to one key, has a very dubious repertoire and insists on singing at every single opportunity. She's had to be practically dragged kicking and screaming from a stage and yet she thinks everyone loves her.   She's never knowingly refused to sing, even to the extent of bringing her instrument incognito.... the only time she won't is if the audience isn't big enough for her to perform at!

Sorry, thought this was the rant thread.....!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Maurice Mann
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:13 PM

Some years ago at Whitby, in a session led by Yorkshire Garland (remember them?)the question was asked "what's the best way to play a bodhran"? The answer given "with a penknife". The best advice I've ever heard.

Mo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: bone2pic
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:37 PM

how about hiring a room somewhere inviting only those people you really like,those you know will abide by 'your' rules and to be on the safe side a baseball bat to be used on those who dare step out of line.......


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:25 PM

Why then you'd have a band!

You know the good pub session is fun because the experience is seldom predictable. Sometimes the most amazing things happen that you'd like to remember, and sometimes there are the most amazing things that happen that your "friends" will never let you forget.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, looking forward to the next Press Room Shanty Swap


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:41 AM

My two main peeves:

1. Talking through someone else's song.
2. Bringing a song one is totally unprepared to sing. Forgetting a verse or two, stumbling a few times - that's a different story, and I believe in patience and encouragement when that happens, but subjecting everyone to a song one is completely unprepared to sing, that's another kettle of fish. What's the point?

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:11 AM

Well - we survived the first session in the rough pub! It looked like it might fall flat early on, but once people arrived & the juke box was turned off it turned into a very good evening. The regulars were reasonably interested & the pub is big enough for people talking at the bar not to overpower the music, nor vice versa.

We had drunk-blokie borrowing various instruments in an attempt to "learn" - also requesting various songs - one of which we had already done & he'd sung along to & then forgotten. Nutters eh? gotta love em. (Anyway he's a nice bloke, so no one minded too much).

Charley - you're right - its the unpredictability that puts the magic into a pub night. So perhaps its just the predictable irritants that we get really cross with - ie when the same person does the same irritating thing EVERY time. Anyway - I am cured of my spleen now, thanks to you Charley & will cherish the unpredictability! cheers.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:15 AM

So should we be drawing up a set of guidlines for sessions then?

1 - Quiet during performances please
2 - No Noodling ever on pain of death
3 - Learn your piece
4 - No Bodhrains ever, see 2
5 - Learn your performer's name
6 - Don't hog the stage (you know who you are!)
7 - Smell nice, but not too much
8 - Melodeons limited to 2 per session (or is that bit too personal?)
9 - No Bodhrains, shaky fruit (excepting it be the banana which is amusing to watch), maraccas, or other percussion in the hands of the person with no sense of rythmn
10 - If you must order a drink loudly during a performance, you better be buying enough for everyone
11 - Enjoy it or else!!

Feel free to add others as you see fit.....

(tongue is firmly planted in cheek here, before you all get out of your prams and throw hissy fits)

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST, Buster Bloodvessel
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:02 AM

The Band's now taking summer bookings

Can you 'Can Can'


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:41 AM

LTS - ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss :>)


Buster : mine's a pint of Special Brew then.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 03 - 10:08 AM

Mink - is that a hissy fit or a shaky banananana?

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:57 AM

Yah, Liz, that's a reasonable list for consideration.

Did I mention another of my pet peeves? Well, I don't know. I'd have to plow through this entire thread and I haven't got time for that. No one else does that anyway. So why should I?

Oh, my pet peeve is the presence of a dart board. One of the taverns that our old folk club used to gather at, before the manager got killed but that's another story, had a dart board in "our" music room and some of the regulars, as opposed to us irregulars, would persist in throwing darts during our sessions. I mean rude, dangerous, or at least distracting. Here's this lovely shy thing singing this plaintive ballad and "thunk!", just as she's getting to the juicy part. Well, I'd like to suggest that "NO ACTIVE DART BOARD PLAYING" be added to Liz's list. What do you think?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:38 PM

Liz - hissy fit of course!! banana goes shvshvshv..shv..shvshv..

And another thing - ringing the "time gentlemen please" bell out of key during a song!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:59 PM

or indeed at any other time, in any key!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:32 PM

When I talked about control in my earlier thread I didn't mean domination.

What I meant was someone who will introduce the peoceedings in some sort of order so that people know when it is their turn to sing and the musicians know when they are due to do a set.   OK. and, if nescessary, shut someone up who's being a prat.

My wife and I actually prefare sessions in pubs with all their inherent problems, rather than sessions in private rooms which can become incestuous.

paulo

OK I can't spell bodhran


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:06 PM

Oh yes, that's another problem.. people who come into a perfectly happy session, and try to organise it... have been sitting in many a singaround where we'd been going for a couple of hours, quite merrily (apart from the noodler, but he's been dealt with above) and someone comes in and decides it shouldn't be a jump in but a sing when you're told session. Ruins the atmosphere and buggers the spontenaiety of a good session, especially when you get a run on songs - question and answer, black and white, songs in a similar vein sort of session that doesn't always happen with set singarounds.

And the banananana only goes like that if you get the action wrong... done properly it should look improper, which is the only reason for allowing it in the room.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Melani
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:52 PM

You guys are being too hard on bodhran players. I actually know at least two who play nicely and appropriately.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:12 AM

Yes, but that's two out of how many thousands? It just takes one bad apple (to drag this kicking and screaming back to music... wasnt' that a hit by the Jackson 5, when Michael was still a sweet black boy instead of a twisted white woman?) to spoil the lot for everyone.

I've met some bloody good bodhrain players in my time, but only one of them had enough sense to know when NOT to play.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Reeltime
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:43 AM

Its been a good long while since I waded into the Mudcat discussion boards, but here I am.

We all have our pet hates at sessions, one of mine is people who sit and tut at you for making a mistake when your accompanying someone. We do make mistakes sometimes us musicians.

My other main one is when you have made youself some room in the corner where you aren't going to hurt anyone (I'm a fiddle player) and someone pulls a stool from somewhere and sits right next to you, right in the "bow in the eye" position

But anyway, I digress.   We all have different opinions as to what is good etiquette, and I suppose it all come down to the club/venue. I personaaly think that common courtesy is the best plan. Keep the volume down where possible, and as for joining in, I make a point when Im singing of asking accompanists to wait until after the first verse, so I can set my key/tempo etc


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 10 May 03 - 06:07 AM

Reeltime! Another voice of good sense! This is very helpful.

I had completely bypassed the fact that, when some demon accompanist is messing up my carefully prepared piece, they are actually just fallible musicians who should be cut a bit of slack. Thanks for pointing that out, as it'll help next time - certainly takes the sting out of it. Its a bit silly to expect perfection every time isn't it - when most of us are happy enthusiastic amateurs rather than professionals.

Also - that request for accompanists to wait until you've set the key & tempo is sheer genius. After the first verse they should be able to assess where you're coming from & understand any variations. Then they can start to accompany from a position of a bit more information. I bet that works well - and I'll have a go with that approach. Ditto perhaps a word about volume of accompaniment - sometimes the accompaniment can be a bit much & you're in danger of straining the voice to keep above it. I'll have to practice my tact & diplomacy skills.......


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: bone2pic
Date: 10 May 03 - 07:25 AM

Maybe i should start a new thread entitled 'open pub singalongs ran by
self important oafs'
I've been to an open session a few times at a local pub run by the
landlord who advertises it in the local press saying that 'newcommers are more than welcome'

anyway sat in a corner playing a banjo is the most objectionable person
you'd ever want to meet.His idea of welcoming 'newcommers' consists of what
i've witnessed are sarcastic comments to any new person who tries to
join in. Very offputting to say the least.

Is this common practise in open pub singalongs.

Do you always get 'one' like this in every open pub singalongs ?

for heavens sake these are not concerts i thought they were meant to
be enjoyable experiences... a few people sat around sharing music.

If I wanted to be criticized id of stayed at home with the wife !!........


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: JudeL
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:03 AM

Pub singalongs are different from club singarounds and different again from a folk club floor spot night, or a musicians session. There are valid arguements for each and they each have their value, but they are different. Unfortunately how people advertise and describe things does not always enable you to identify which it is until you actually get there, and even then if there is an "organiser" they might have their own ideas about what it is they expect. People often go expecting one type (often because that is what they are used to) and find it difficult to adjust when it's something different. It may also be useful to bear in mind when criticising an "organiser" that that person may have had to do a lot of behind the scenes negotiations to get the landlord to accept the idea especially when sometimes they may not have a PEL.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:33 AM

What is wrong with bordhrans, I play one however I also play Guitar, And I also own an Accordion and I'm thinking of buying a banjo as well.
Glutton for punishment of what.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hayduke
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:46 PM

Had to laugh about Charley Noble's mention of dart boards. I used to play in this small club in California where a lot of the space did "double duty." Behind our stage ... er, designated section of the floor ... they had three dart boards set up. Made me real nervous; between songs I kept looking behind me to see if any of the darts moved.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: sweetfire
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:07 PM

who/what are bordhrans?????


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:09 PM

Lis - sometimes a session needs an 'organiser' so that everybody gets to sing.   Some individuals/groups are greedy and just carry on singing other songs, and don't let anyone else in.   By the way I was asked to organise the sessions I was talking about for just that reason.

By the way.   Any musician accompanying me I welcome - as long as they can tell me what key I was singing in afterwards.

paulo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 03 - 04:03 AM

Lis - sometimes a session needs an 'organiser' so that everybody gets to sing.   Some individuals/groups are greedy and just carry on singing other songs, and don't let anyone else in.

The trick is solving the problem of individuals/groups being greedy/inconsiderate and all the other problems listed here, without losing the freedom that make these events so good when they work.

The 'organiser' concept, especially in a pub, is not a solution. In fact I think that it can cause folk to be even worse.

The benevelolent dictator idea, usually self appointed, is one I have difficulty with. No matter how fair this 'organiser' of more accurately 'leader' is trying to be, there will be some folk who feel that they have not been given as much time as other more favoured folk etc, and probably with some justification.

The reaction is usually to 'milk' the precious spot that they are given, to the detrement of everyone.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 May 03 - 05:26 PM

I'm specifically talking about a person who comes into a session part way through and takes over regardless of previous practice or whether anyone else is actually organising, and yes, the milking organiser is another supreme pain in the ass.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Disappointed
Date: 17 May 03 - 03:26 PM

Shant be bothering in future. Stupid me got the idea that as a beginner I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting combined with my usual tution night. How mistaken I have been. Dont get me wrong music lessons are great - but you pompas gits that play at the pub near where I live ought to get your musical instrument out of your backsides and maybe that way you may find a smile comes more natural. I wasnt after your tuition - I pay for that and wouldnt want to be tought by a pretentious oaf anyway. Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether youre playing your banjo or your bones - youre not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest Folkie
Date: 17 May 03 - 06:05 PM

This thread is the saddest I have ever read. It's so full of people whinging about guests whose crime seems to be wanting to make music and join in.

Let's concentrate on "how to make sessions and singarounds welcome to all, especially the newcomer".

If a regular gets up your nose - try talking to him/her.

I have been a regular at a local session for some time: the delightful thing to me is watching the new performer develop, and perhaps helping. The established and skilful performer shouldn't need any help, and could always put on a concert if silence and attention is so important - then I would expect the audience to be well behaved; in a public bar, let's be tolerant, friendly and enlarge the community of musicians.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 May 03 - 05:35 AM

TOPIC      Bad Manners at sesions, singaround



Guests.... Disapointed & Guest Folkie??? ......

Guest "disapointed" - with that attitude I'm surprised your old enough to be allowed in pubs.

They are music sessions not help sessions.........


Maybe you are attending the wrong clubs for the wrong reasons or with the attitude...

I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting

I have never heard of a problem with the above, at the Falcon we are always happy for people to listen, and play what they have learned -

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether youre playing your banjo or your bones - you're not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising

Of course people talk in pubs..... but maybe if people wish to "socialise" loudly (usually to shout over the music!) it might just be common decency not to join a group of people who are playing and singing purporting to be there to join in and enjoy that side of socialising then talk through what they are doing! manners cost nothing!!

I think the whole thing comes down to respect for others.... whether new to music or a survivor from the 50's (or earlier!) I don't "butt in" to peoples conversations - go along to a party and try and organise everyone - tell people what to drink and how to drink it - why then do people go along to sessions, Singaround and be musically impolite to the same degree?????

Don't go along to join in with something you say you enjoy and then expect everything to change to the way you want it to be and remember...........


GIGO - Garbage in - Garbage out   - make an effort to contribute to the event not disrupt it.......

Tip: If you don't know a tune, playing louder doesn't help you learn it!

Pete .....

always happy to play/sing alongside musicians of any standard who are aware of their capabilities, can tune (or arrange to have tuned) their instrument, know the key others are playing in (if they are joining in), know when NOT to play, enjoy making and listening music, and don't listen to "Music Teachers" who tell them "it doesn't matter if you play the wrong chords, play in the wrong key, sing out of tune etc.. as long as you're joining in and enjoying yourself" !!!!      :-}


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 May 03 - 05:49 AM

I think many of the above comments also apply to "Bones2pic" who only looks to be going along to the sessions to get away from his wife??

if his wife won't put up with him why should others????


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Phot
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:56 AM

What the hell is noodling anyway?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: sweetfire
Date: 18 May 03 - 08:30 AM

that's what i was wondering.....would someone please care to tell us...

this thread is quite imformative, but lets try not to forget to encourage people eh? wether they're regulars or newcomers. i wouldn't have half the (little) amount of confidence i have if people around me weren't as supportive as they have been. and im not just talking about friends, that also includes strangers talking to me in the toilets. everything helps. so maybe we should start concentrating on something more positive....?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,sadoldgit
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:20 AM

Why is it you have all this moaning from "wanabees" like bone2pic who expects to be welcomed with opened arms into sessions when he most likely has nothing to offer other than two chords and a lot of gab??

You need to earn respect from the people around you, by showing some consideration, and respect for the people who have spent time learning their profession and providing a venue for you to go along and learn by watching and listening - maybe when you have looked and listened, learned how to play and sing then you should consider performing.... They owe you nothing.... they do not need to excuse incompetence... make allowances for your inabilities, it may be an open music session - but for musicians - if you can't keep up ask yourself if you should have started!

and yes music should be an enjoyable experience - so don't spoil that enjoyment for the musicians by disrupting the sessions with your incompetence and talking.

noodling = messing around, playing, tuning up, whilst others are performing.

I never talk to strangers in the toilet.....


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Jeri
Date: 18 May 03 - 09:34 AM

Noodling is when a person plays, usually quietly, when they have no intention of starting a song or tune. They're often practicing or tying to work something out. It's a problem because it can interfere with those who DO want to start a song getting the tune in their head. Many people noodle a little, but some do it constantly and every gap between songs is filled with notes played at the edge of hearing.

Newbcomers with good manners are very welcome most places I've been. It's consistent bad manners because a person lacks the ability or willingness to learn them that makes people unwelcome, although sometimes it's a matter of no one being willing to explain.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paddywack
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:37 PM

My pet hate is when someone else joins in with my singing but have a totally different version of the words.Even if it is just one or two words out I still find myself listening to them rather than train my thoughts onto my own performance.
                                 And when I make mention of the fact to them later(something I always do)they tell me that their version is either better, the original or I am singing it wrong.I feel that if they are joining in with me then they do it my way, right or wrong.
    (There will ALWAYS be someone there to tell you that their version is the better one simply because it is the most popular version."The Kerry Mountains / Whiskey In the Jar / Kilgarry Mountains" is a mighty fine example.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paddywack
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:44 PM

A song that I sing regularly at the sessions is "The Mingulay Boat Song". Iuse the same tune for the chorus as for the verse,because I like it that way,but there is one particular person,if present will wave his head and grin like a Cheshire cat.He does this because he knows that I know that he knows a different tune to the chorus.GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! That makes me mad.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Disappointed
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:54 PM

Im old to enough to be in a pub - Im 36 if you really must know. Old enough to recognise that socialising is an enjoyable experience and wise enought to recognise I want nothing to do with sad old gits who clearly dont have a life and get some kind of perverse kick out of putting newcomers down.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Owain
Date: 18 May 03 - 02:57 PM

Disapointed you didn't say what you were put down for

was it for a song you sang or talking when others were singing or trying to play along with something you didn't know or just the fact that no one smiled at you?

clansfolk harsh words from you?




younger than 36


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest Folkie
Date: 18 May 03 - 03:14 PM

It seems so sad to me that following some misbehaviour (?) on an occasion or two some civilised people with a common love of music and a wish to participate in some sort of session should have reached the point of nuking each other.

It also seems that this tedious and immature thread contains a lot of insults of the "Yah boo sucks" type and not a lot of willingness to adapt or conform to anyone else's view.

I go occasionally to a session where novice instrumentalists and vocalists are welcomed rather than tolerated, and where the local tipsy lady who requests a particular song is cheerfully accommodated even though everybody hates the fields of Athenry.

With so much vituperation and bigotry in our musical community, what chance Korea or N Ireland or Iraq...?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 18 May 03 - 07:23 PM

Clansfolk wrote:

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Thats a bloody good list of people who should stick to folk clubs and stay out of open bar sessions.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:41 AM

Peter from Essex...

If you stopped the people mentioned going to your "open" sessions and singarounds and restricted them to folk clubs (although many of the session/singarounds I've been to consist of many people who don't play folk music) I think you would be left with very few musicians....

I'm sure I would find little enjoyment in sitting with a crowd of people, talking, playing out of tune, playing / singing different songs etc..... all at the same time,

Guest Folkie.... I must agree! maybe I'll take an extra pill and try and be more tolerant, and try and realise that sometimes what appears to be bad manners on the part of others is just a lack of being aware of how a things normally happen in what to them is a new environment....   and that sometimes comments that are meant to be a joke to put people at their ease, can be taken as an attack or sarcasm - not to judge books by covers and not to hate in plural....

and maybe if we all had a bit more respect for others beliefs and feeling it would be a better world to live in.....


Now where's those pills..............     :-)


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Phot
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:06 PM

Thanks for the enlightenment o wise ones,..If noodling hacks you off,come to a Middle Bar shanty session,usually so loud we can't hear ourselves think,let alone noodle!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 May 03 - 05:45 AM

At the various sing-arounds and song circles and open sings I've gone to in the NY-NJ area, we usually have some system taking turns. When your turn comes around, you have three choices:

1. You can perform a song, meaning that you do it solo or else only with those people you individually ask to accompany you.

2. You can lead a song, meaning that others are free to join in with voices and instruments. Good song leaders usually run through the tune and chords at least once, and they specify whether they want people to sing along on the entire song or only on the choruses.

3. You can request a song, either from a specific individual or from the group as a whole. In the latter instance, someone who knows the song usually comes forward to lead it. If not, you get a chance to request another song. Also, if you perform or lead a song by request, it does not count as your turn.

Sessions of this kind tend to be friendly places where people of all interests and ability levels feel welcome.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:38 AM

Janice - that sounds like a really nice idea - and includes those people that are there just to listen, which is a nice touch.
A good model to follow I reckon.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 20 May 03 - 08:43 AM

Janice - simple yet effective...

Have adopted the idea, but will maybe add a "Pass" option -

A card (triangle in shape) could be made to pass to the next person in the circle - which would show their choice - everyone was aware even those who may have not heard the choice or were at the bar loo?


brill


Pete


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: julie rogers
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:48 PM

i've followed this thread from the start not believing clansfolk could be so petty to start it. was it knowingly started so as to create bad feeling? hey everyone is entitled to there own opinion but some are better unsaid.if clansfolk is so unhappy playing with people who dare break his rules why does he continue?
why do something youre unhappy with?
pete and guest folkie to name just two seem to have brought i little sense into this matter

and no i dont think bone 2 pick is moaning i think he has a valid point and would think his comment about his wife was meant as a joke
if maybe a sarcastic one...from what i've read in this thread clansfolk
pete knows a thing or to about sarcasm or are his comments meant as sarcastic remarks or doe he really believe in what he wrote?


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Guest-Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 12:44 AM

My apologies to all, this is off-topic a bit. I noticed a post towards the beginning of the thread as follows:

Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

I'm living on the pension now - it doesn't go so far etc..........


.............In my day,

This is a snippit of a favorite song of mine, that I have NEVER been able to get any information for. Folks at the singers sessions I attend have been asking for some background, and I don't have any. ClansFolk, can you help me? Can you point me to any song you may have been referencing, especially if it is "The Old Man's Song" not to be confused with Phil Coulter's "The Old Man".
Peace
Starfire


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:42 AM

Now for an on topic post.... *grin*
I attend 3-4 sessions a week (I know, lucky me!!) and am one of those people who play the most feared and dreaded of instruments- the bodhran- (cringe in fear!!!) Some diety some where decided to bless me, not only with a good sense of rhythm, but with taste and consideration in playing as well... at least that's what I'm told. I just know the session leaders will usually ask me to sit near them, when I'm not otherwise occupied.
We have our share of bad bodhran players at each session. We also have quite a few new folks who show up with a drum, figuring 'anyone can play it'. Between myself, the session leaders and a few of the folks I've gotten to already, we catch these newcomers as soon as possible. I'll usually introduce myself to them, ask about their drum, get some other pertenant info from them and then tell them a bit about myself. Mostly breaking the ice stuff. I'll ask at some point if they have a teacher. Then I let it drop. I'll go on with my playing and let them figure out that I might be a good role model. When then come to me for hint, tips or teaching, I share as much as they will take. If this subtle approach doesn't do it, one of the other session regulars, or leaders, will point me out and flat out say, 'you might want to ask that one for a few pointers'.
This approach has worked for almost every instrument (sorry, haven't figured out how to make it work for bones or spoons :-( ). We also have several 'slow sessions' and learning sessions in the area, some going on at the same time as the traditional session in a different part of the pub. I think having a few people who are willing to share their talent with newcomers, even if it's one on one, can improve everyone's time at a session, while taking some of the onus off the leaders, who have to focus on everyone, not just one person.

And, yes, noodling really ticks me off, as I'm a singer too....

Peace
Starfire


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE OLD MAN'S SONG (Ian Campbell)
From: clansfolk
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:55 AM

words from memory so I can't say if all the words are as "first written" I'll check for further background and post it to this thread. - Pete



THE OLD MAN'S SONG
(Ian Campbell)

At the turning of the century I was a lad of five,
Me father went to fight the Boers and never came back alive
Me ma was left to bring us up, no Charity she'd seek
She washed and scrubbed and scraped along on seven & six a week.

When I was twelve I left the school and went to find a job,
With growing kids me Ma was glad of the extra couple of bob,
I'm sure that better schooling would have stood me in good stead,
But you can't afford refinements when you're struggling for your bread.

And when the Great War came along I didn't hesitate,
I took the Royal shilling and went off to do me bit,
I fought in mud and tears and blood Three years or there' about
'til I copped some gas in Flanders and was invalided out.

And when the war was over and we'd settled with the Hun,
We got back into civvies and we thought the fighting done,
We'd won the right to live in Peace, but we didn't have such luck
For pretty soon we had to fight for the right to go to work.

In Twenty six the General Strike found me on the streets
Though I'd a wife and kids by then and their needs I had to meet
But a Brave New world was coming and the Brotherhood of man,
But when the strike was over we were back where we began.

I struggled through the Thirties, out of work now and again,
I saw the Black shirts marching and the things they did in Spain
But I brought me kids up decent and I taught them wrong from right,
Then Hitler was the lad that came and taught them how to fight.

Me daughter she's a Land girl she got married to a Yank
They gave me son a gong for stopping one of Rommel's tanks,
He was wounded just before the end and convalesced in Rome
Where he married an Eyetie girl and never bothered to come home

My daughter writes me every month a cheerful little note
About their colour telly, and the other things they've got
They have a son a likely lad, he's almost 21
And now they say he's go to go and fight in Vietnam

We're living on the pension now; it doesn't go too far,
Not much to show for a life that's been like one long bloody war,
When I think of all the wasted lives it makes you want to cry,
I'm not sure how to change things - but by Christ we've got to try.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: clansfolk
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:02 AM

Julie Rogers wrote ……   


i've followed this thread from the start not believing clansfolk could be so petty to start it.

The Topic was started in a discussion board after comments were made to me at a regular singaround (I attend 2-4 a week and enjoy all of them most of the time) – I'm not sure why I was "petty" to start it and am surprised that so many people responded to the subject and not just let the petty thread die


was it knowingly started so as to create bad feeling? No – neither did I think it would and neither do I think it has… and I take objection to you implying this.

hey everyone is entitled to there own opinion but some are better unsaid – is this except for me or the people who don't agree with you? should we just be quiet and not debate such subjects?


if clansfolk is so unhappy playing with people who dare break his rules why does he continue?
– I don't have any rules – I have opinions on what I feel are bad manners (I'm most offended to bad manners to others than myself) I do not "Run" sing arounds and as mentioned in one of the threads enjoy playing with other musicians (and have done for approaching 50 years)


why do something you're unhappy with? - see above – when did I say I was unhappy I thought it was the opposite!

pete and guest folkie to name just two seem to have brought i little sense into this matter – "Pete"??? and Guest Folkie – guest "folkie" did make interesting comments and I did in fact comment on this…….

and no i dont think bone 2 pick is moaning i think he has a valid point and would think his comment about his wife was meant as a joke if maybe a sarcastic one...     If bone2pic was being "sarcastic" would this not contradict his complaint that was obviously directed at an individual who he was incapable of facing to discuss what he thought was a personal attack on himself (I didn't say he was moaning but I get the feeling he has a lot of pent up anger and annoyed at himself that he didn't confront the "Banjo Player" – as a banjo player myself he can shout at me if it will make him feel better (I've broad shoulders and a Belly to match!!!)

from what i've read in this thread clansfolk pete knows a thing or to about sarcasm or are his comments meant as sarcastic remarks or doe he really believe in what he wrote?   - Some were obviously tongue in cheek most were my opinion - if that's alright (that was sarcasm ;-) ) – I'm happy to clarify which were which (maybe if you PM me as you appear to object to me and my comments rather than the topic and those who feel there is a problem?)

One interesting thing I noticed about the thread is the amount of "guests" and "first time Posters" that contributed and the number of people who are concerned with "Bad Manner" at session etc…… maybe it's not a "petty" subject to those who ARE concerned about other people's feelings????

Below is a list of My (Pete aka Clansfolk) post on this topic






(1) I'd be interested what you think are bad manners at sessions/singarounds at open bar sessions and by fellow musicians/singers.

Comments I had so far....
Joining in with tunes you don't know - loudly....
Insisting on playing the chords you know for the song even if they clash with the person performing....
Playing or showing someone to play an instrument/different song whist someone is performing.......
Talking........

I'm sure many have their pet annoyances - or maybe it doesn't bother you what others do when you are playing/singing at a session????

"the one thing that annoys me about amateur musicians is that they expect you to listen to them" J B SHAW?
(George Beranard Shaw)


(2) and I thought it was just me being intolerant in me old age -

- maybe living through the shared folk revival in the 50/60s and the way everyone learnt, shared and admired together has led me to believe that the people who go to sessions now are of the same mind and want to join together to enjoy a mutual interest - where so many nowadays seem to treat sessions as time to show-off try to play louder than anyone else and generally say "look at me"

"There's no "I" in group"

am I really that old


(3) I'm living on the pension now - it doesn't go so far etc........          .............In my day,

(4) I agree that in a pub you expect the clients to talk - but surely fellow musician should have more respect - the talkers are usually the ones who expect everyone to be quiet whilst they perform!

(5) errrrmmmmmmmm   getting am I?
Been everywhere, seen and done everything - what a shame I can't remember any of it!
- do as you would be done by is my motto now - grrrrrrr!

(6) chordus interuptus - very dangerous.....

(7) TOPIC      Bad Manners at sesions, singaround



Guests.... Disapointed & Guest Folkie??? ......

Guest "disapointed" - with that attitude I'm surprised your old enough to be allowed in pubs.

They are music sessions not help sessions.........


Maybe you are attending the wrong clubs for the wrong reasons or with the attitude...

I would be made welcome and benefit from the experience of listening and playing to live music in a social setting

I have never heard of a problem with the above, at the Falcon we are always happy for people to listen, and play what they have learned -

However it can be off putting for other artists (of any ability) to have people talk, or play wrong chords, or in wrong keys whilst they are performing, also many artist go to the trouble of arranging a song, intros, instrumentals etc... and may be happier NOT to have others join in (many others of course welcome other able musicians to play/sing along)

Oh and a public house is what it says - so regardless of whether you're playing your banjo or your bones - you're not that special - life goes on and people talk - its called socialising

Of course people talk in pubs..... but maybe if people wish to "socialise" loudly (usually to shout over the music!) it might just be common decency not to join a group of people who are playing and singing purporting to be there to join in and enjoy that side of socialising then talk through what they are doing! Manners cost nothing!!

I think the whole thing comes down to respect for others.... whether new to music or a survivor from the 50's (or earlier!) I don't "butt in" to peoples conversations - go along to a party and try and organise everyone - tell people what to drink and how to drink it - why then do people go along to sessions, Singaround and be musically impolite to the same degree?????

Don't go along to join in with something you say you enjoy and then expect everything to change to the way you want it to be and remember...........

GIGO - Garbage in - Garbage out   - make an effort to contribute to the event not disrupt it.......

Tip: If you don't know a tune, playing louder doesn't help you learn it!

Pete .....

always happy to play/sing alongside musicians of any standard who are aware of their capabilities, can tune (or arrange to have tuned) their instrument, know the key others are playing in (if they are joining in), know when NOT to play, enjoy making and listening music, and don't listen to "Music Teachers" who tell them "it doesn't matter if you play the wrong chords, play in the wrong key, sing out of tune etc.. as long as you're joining in and enjoying yourself" !!!!      :-}

(8)        I think many of the above comments also apply to "Bones2pic" who only looks to be going along to the sessions to get away from his wife??

If his wife won't put up with him why should others????

(9) Peter from Essex...

If you stopped the people mentioned going to your "open" sessions and singarounds and restricted them to folk clubs (although many of the session/singarounds I've been to consist of many people who don't play folk music) I think you would be left with very few musicians....

I'm sure I would find little enjoyment in sitting with a crowd of people, talking, playing out of tune, playing / singing different songs etc..... all at the same time,

Guest Folkie.... I must agree! maybe I'll take an extra pill and try and be more tolerant, and try and realise that sometimes what appears to be bad manners on the part of others is just a lack of being aware of how a things normally happen in what to them is a new environment....   and that sometimes comments that are meant to be a joke to put people at their ease, can be taken as an attack or sarcasm - not to judge books by covers and not to hate in plural....

and maybe if we all had a bit more respect for others beliefs and feeling it would be a better world to live in.....


Now where's those pills..............    :-)

(10) Janice - simple yet effective...   Have adopted the idea, but will maybe add a "Pass" option -

A card (triangle in shape) could be made to pass to the next person in the circle - which would show their choice - everyone was aware even those who may have not heard the choice or were at the bar loo?
brill
Pete


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Starfire
Date: 23 May 03 - 12:39 PM

Pete, you're a miracle!!!
That's so much more than I've ever had. I didn't know if it was an original composition of the local band that recorded it. Anything more you could dig up would be appreciated. My local sessions love the song and that's one that I'm always asked to do, especially now, with all that's going on uin the world. I'm told I must add a few verses to bring it up to date...
My most profound thanks to you sir!
Starfire


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Hawker
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:34 PM

One thing which I think has been overlooked, (I have scanned but not read ALL postings on this thread) is the people leading the sing arounds can sometimes be VERY bad mannered! Especially if they don't know you, rather than politely asking if you want to join in, they repeatedly miss you out!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: paulo
Date: 26 May 03 - 03:29 PM

Starfire - please don't try to add verses to this son as I think it would spoil it.    Don't forget the first verse starts "At he turning of the century I was a lad of five".    Putting recent events in would make him a hundred and eight!

By the way did you know that Ian Campbell's two son's are the same campbell's who are in UB40?

paulo


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:12 AM

I wondered when someone would get around to having a go at spoons players! (starfire, 23 May) Is there a session anywhere that would welcome me and my spoons, or am I doomed to remain a pariah? Also, why do all "Irish" session players look so serious, and continually play the same tune? Would it help if I joined in on my Tuba, "German" Umpah bands seem so much jollier? Just a thought bwt.


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:15 AM

Gwylan,

I would guess...yes, if you play spoons you are doomed to remain a pariah. Sorry.

wr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:59 AM

Oh well, it,ll just have to be the tuba then is it?
Diolch yn fawr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Gwylan Bach
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:49 AM

Oh well, it,ll just have to be the tuba then is it?
Diolch yn fawr


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 03 - 04:33 AM

Well why the heck not! I was in on a session recently where there was a cello and a double bass - possibly the two most unsociable session instruments after the trombone, but it was good to have something a bit more bassy. I find some sessions go higher and higher up the scales and if you want to join in you need a dog whistle! Something good and solid on the bottom helps bring a tune down to sensible auditory levels and can provide an interesting rhythmn too.

There were some spoons there too.... very badly tuned, but then, spoons cadged from the table of fellow diners are rarely chosen for their musicality, rather their ability to hold generous portions of chocolate fudge cake (they were good for that too).

I promise I won't do it again.... the handles were so badly shaped that I got a blister after only 15 minutes playing.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,minky
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:48 AM

grrrrrrrrrr. Who'd ever have thought that Shipbuilding was a shaky-egg-able song!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Bad Manners at Sessions, Singarounds
From: GUEST,Lidy
Date: 28 May 03 - 06:51 AM

Lidy brings you the easy way to solve your session gripes:
Campfire training is the way forward!! When i was a Girl Guide, I was subjected to campfire singing (as a leader, i quite enjoy it now!!). It's simple. Someone important who thinks all the Guides like them (when in reality they are the most disliked authority figure on camp), stands at the front and leads the songs that only they want to sing. Occasionnally some young leader's boyfriend (when I was a young leader, it was normally mine, poor lad) who has been dragged along will try to join in on a guitar whose tuning has suffered awfully from the cold and damp. Guides will sit around cringeing for ages, wishing they could leave and go to the Scout camp in the next field, before deciding that joining in may be the only way to end this ordeal. Everyone suffers severe vocal damage from singing too loudly around an open fire on a cold night. Thus solving the problem of them being noisy in the minibus on the way home.
After that, everyone would find even the most hostile sessions welcoming and enjoyable! And they would realise the value of every individual instrument and the beauty of traditional songs. Simple!
Maybe the next camp I run could have an "In the Tradition" culture of the British Isles theme...


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