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BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell

GUEST 26 Apr 03 - 09:44 PM
kendall 26 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM
Hillheader 27 Apr 03 - 03:08 AM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 06:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM
Leo Condie 27 Apr 03 - 06:53 AM
gnu 27 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM
kendall 27 Apr 03 - 09:13 AM
DonMeixner 27 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM
Metchosin 27 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 12:32 PM
Charley Noble 27 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM
DonMeixner 27 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM
Metchosin 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM
Peter T. 27 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:32 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM
gnu 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM
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Subject: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 09:44 PM

Seems that Michael Moore & his 'Bowling for Columbine' brought old Chuck down after all. Heston made his 'farewell' speech to the NRA convention today:

Charlton Heston's Farewell to the NRA

Remember, Heston's Alzheimer's announcement was made just after the debut of 'Bowling for Columbine' which obviously made him look too frighteningly real even for the NRA. And get a load of the war mongering and warrior rhetoric in his taped farewell speech!

No surprise about his replacement, though. Another Republican party hack.

"Heston will be succeeded by Kayne Robinson, former chairman of the Iowa State Republican Party.

After the tape, Heston moved to the podium, where he repeated his trademark "cold dead hands" phrase and made a few remarks of thanks."


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM

Cold dead HEAD, is more like it.

Mr. LaPierre never did answer my letter in which I pointed out when he lied. Big surprise, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:08 AM

That's scary. Makes be glad to be in the UK where we are clamping down on gun posession and use. After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something. In a current amnesty however an AK47 assualt rifle was handed in to Police. I dread to think what is still out there and who may be holding it.

Davebhoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:12 AM

Davebhoy,
with all respect due in this case, I feel a responce is in order.

"That's scary. Makes be glad to be in the UK where we are clamping down on gun posession and use."

Perhaps if we as parents spent less time working two jobs so a benevolant government can send our hard-earned pay to distant fields while our own elders die in their chairs and beds for lack of medicine, and our babies cry from the misery of their little empty bellies, and spend more time bringing up our children right, we wouldn't have this problem. Dicipline begins at home with parental guidance, and supervision. Parents are NOT there to be "friends"! Sad but true. You cannot dump your babies on an outside party and expect them to turn out right. Furthermore, it is high damnded time that people begin taking responsibility for their own actions and shortcomings. If you fail in your job as a parent and your child thinks they have to use a firearm to attain some unspeakably evil end, don't cry to the many ears about the BIG BAD TEWWABLE GUN BOOGIE MEN. Look in the mirror. Look right into the eyes of the face in that mirror and begin addressing the real culprit.

I am a citizen of the United States. As such I am a vassel to no man. I will bow to no ruler and I damnded sure won't allow some tinhorn four-flushing wanna-be grand hi-pubah in a city that remains perpetually out of touch with those who support its very existance steal my birthright.

"After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something."

One thing that the gun-snatchers and their hangers-on politely leave out of their hype-rallies:

You cannot legeslate common sence.

No firearm from the dawn of gunpowder to this date has ever (EVER)loaded itself, leveled itself, taken its own aim, cocked back its own hammer, and discharged a load of shot into some hapless victem. It takes the malice in the brain, the wickedness in the heart, the complacent hand and the seeing eye to set into motion the event of death by acute lead poisoning.

"In a current amnesty however an AK47 assualt rifle was handed in to Police. I dread to think what is still out there and who may be holding it."

Do you really think the criminals will sit up in their nasty dens of misdoing, and hearing anouncement of further legeslation, say "Well, Louie, that does it for us! The law says we can't have a gun along when we take off convenience stores!"

Not very likely, is it?

Louis L'Amour had it pegged: "When bureaucrats outlaw guns, only outlows will have them."

Offered with the utmost respect.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM

What has always puzzled me has been that the "cold dead hands" quote is apparently supposed to evince a supportive response.

Rather than one of "That's fine by me, if that's how you want it".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Leo Condie
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:53 AM

dear neighmond

it doesn't eradicate gun use completely, but the harder guns are to get hold of, the less psychos get hold of them :) your argument seems to be "Well criminals are crazy so we should be allowed guns because we're not!"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM

I live in Canada, where gun laws introduced over the last fifteen years for the exact same reasoning above have contributed to the crime of "home invasion", most victims being the elderly and women. The occurance of this crime is becoming more frequent every day in my area. I just hope it's anti-gun lobby people who get robbed and beaten in their own homes because I am sure they will cope with the trauma better than those who still own a gun but, by law, can't use it to defend themselves IN their own home.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:13 AM

Right on, Chaz, we must changed our mind set and deal with the CAUSES of gun violence.
There have been, and always will be guns. They will be in the hands of nuts, and, I see gun ownership as levelling the playing field.
Florida used to be an unsafe place to be, but, after they passed a "right to carry" law, violent crime went way down. It doesn't take a huge brain to figure out why.

In my own state, we have 1 million total population; there are 10,000 concealed weapon permits out there, Vermont has no law on concealed weapons, yet, we are two of the safest states in the union. Why? I'll bet that our collective mind set is the reason. It's also possible that we are not crowded into too small a space like NY city dwellers. They have their "Sullivan Law" but it is next to useless. As stated before, you can not legislate common sense, and, in my opinion, living in a big city is an un natural act.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM

""No firearm from the dawn of gunpowder to this date has ever (EVER)loaded itself, leveled itself, taken its own aim, cocked back its own hammer, and discharged a load of shot into some hapless victem. It takes the malice in the brain, the wickedness in the heart, the complacent hand and the seeing eye to set into motion the event of death by acute lead poisoning.""

Nicely said.

Gun ownership in the states is a right. But rights also require responsibility. It should be incumbent on all gun owners to learn how to use and store them safely.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM

Gee Neighmond, so sorry to hear that times are so tough for you at this moment, despite two jobs. Perhaps if you hocked your gun and computer you could buy some food and medicine with the money to help keep your family through this tough time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:32 PM

In NYC, theoretically only the police and the bad guys have guns. I have always found it amazing when a criminal is shot while commiting a crime, sues, and WINS sometimes millions. The process takes years so that his original victim, who usually has not filed a civil suit because the criminal is penniless, can not turn around and claim a share of the booty. So the low life lives on millions, though he is crippled, and the upstanding citizen, also crippled, lives on disability insurance.

I now live in Maine and still don't own a gun. But the bad guys don't know that...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM

I wonder what St. Peter will say when ol' Chalatan Heston hauls his arsenal up to the Pearly Gates?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM

Charleton Heston...Altzeimers and Dementia...NRA. All hangs together, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM

Art,

No, it doesn't.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM

In that connection, let us turn back the clock a bit. In the year 1369, Edward III, one of England's truly great monarchs, issued the following order:
"Cause public proclamation to be made, that everyone strong in body at leisure time on holidays use in his recreation the bow and arrow and learn and exercise the art of shooting - forbidding all and singular on our behalf that they do not after any manner apply themselves to the throwing of stones, wood, iron, handball, football, bandyball, cambuck, or cock fighting; nor to other such like vain plays which have no profit in them, under pain of imprisonment."

Edward Rex, Westminster, 12th day of June 1369

Edward was not frightened of his people, or of law abiding citizens being armed with the deadliest instrument of battle in his arsenal. The Longbow being the equivalent of a personal firearm in 1369.

The NRA promote safety training and the enforcement of laws. Charleton Heston has been the target of biased liberal hatred, and personal slight for years. The nature of this thread disgusts me, I lost my father to this disease. (he refused treatment for cancer while still capable of understanding his predicament) I have admired Mr Heston as an accomplished actor, and a man of great oratory skill. You should be ashamed of this thread, he cannot defend himself; and you have no reason to continue such infantile rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

Ya...

Guns don't kill people...

PEOPLE with guns kill people...

So there are 2 sides of the equation we can work with...

Remove all the guns, or remove all the people...

I'm all for the latter!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM

I would like to apologize for the tone of my last post. I especially regret offending anyone who has also had family members stricken with these diseases, as I have.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM

Now the National Longbow Association would be a much better idea. You have to work pretty hard at it before you've much cahnce of doing any real damage with a longbow. Unlike a handgun, where anyone can shoot members of their family who are trying to sneak in the house late at night, without any training at all.

Incidentally - if it's the National Rifle Association, why doesn't it stick to rifles?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

I take it quite a few of you engaging in this discussion haven't seen Charlton Heston in the Michael Moore film 'Bowling for Columbine'?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM

Obviously your knowledge of Longbows is as weak as your knowledge of firearms McGrath. The Longbow was still more efficient on the battlefield than early firearms, and the Crossbow became the assault rifle of its day (requiring less training to use than the Longbow) both capable of penetrating armour plate (bullet proof vests) Interestingly enough, the Crossbow is considered a firearm in Canada.

The NRA became involved in all aspects of firearm ownership because of the political social engineering attempts, to destroy all shooting sports by people like you. Your statement about the use of handguns without training is however the main focus of why the NRA does its best to provide safety training. Their main function at one time was to encourage enforcement of responsible gun laws, and promote safe training in firearm use. They shifted to political involvement in all aspects of the shooting sports, because of uninformed political activity to ban all use of personal firearms. On that note why dont you stick to music?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

McGrath, you're not as right as you might like to think you are! And I'm a pretty good shot with a longbow... ;)

And as for Guest, in case you hadn't noticed, the world has changed a bit in the last 750-odd years. Ed III's edict (thank you for that - it was being discussed in another thread & I couldn't remember the date!) had absolutely bugger all to do with crime or personal protection. I really can't be bothered to argue in detail, because gun threads are always polarized 'twixt gun nuts & gun haters so it makes 'discussion a bit pointless, but your quote of a 14thC Law is asinine & irrelevant. Your understanding of 14thC life is equally limited & puerile ("The Longbow being the equivalent of a personal firearm in 1369" - {rollseyes} no, not at all!).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

Metchosin

"Gee Neighmond, so sorry to hear that times are so tough for you at this moment, despite two jobs. Perhaps if you hocked your gun and computer you could buy some food and medicine with the money to help keep your family through this tough time."

I will hock nothing. The rifle and shotgun can provide food for body, and the computer provides a means of study, wherein I may gain knowledge, which, as we alll know, is food for the brain.

Without either all is lost.

Chaz.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM

Raedwulf, personal firearms being the topic, I chose to use the example of Edwards law, to show people were encouraged to train with weapons 750 years ago. As to knowledge of history, I would point out that only dictators want to control personal weapons. England did not have a standing army, and relied on its people to own and maintain proficiency with the deadly accurate Longbow. You may roll your eyes all you want sir, but if the analogy is lost to you it shows weakness of intellect on your part not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM

Actually, personal firearms aren't the topic. Charlton Heston being driven out of his NRA leadership position by his appearance in Michael Moore's film 'Bowling for Columbine', is the topic. Not to be nitpicking, or anything. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Sorry Neighmond ......sounds a bit too much like The Ballad of Hollis Brown to me.....to depressing to contemplate for long.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Michael Moore is an asshole, and his film bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM

Truth hurts eh Guest 03:20...

"shooting sports"

Talk about bullshit... Guns are NOT sport... they are for KILLING... Plain and simple... Killing humans is what they were invented for...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM

Metchosin

Don't appologise to me, respectful debate builds nations.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM

Considering that the Party that spends taxpayers money on foreign fields, is daily encroaching on individual rights, and is letting the elderly and children and anyone else without decent socialist health care rot is also the prime supporter of guns R' us, is there not something a tad twilight zone about all this ridiculous "vassal to no man" rhetoric?

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM

ClintonHammond:

"Talk about bullshit... Guns are NOT sport... they are for KILLING... Plain and simple... Killing humans is what they were invented for... "

It may interest you to know that my firearms have not taken part in any human exterminations, nor will they. Here is what my firearms have done:

At my hand, my firearms have provided many a fine meal to many people.

At my hand, my firearms have provided more than one fine coat and hat (from the same deer we ate, nothing went to waste.)

At my hand, my firearms have provided protection from a drunken and dangerous man, who was detained untill the authorities could remand him to the appropriate facility.

I have spent many a plesant afternoon in fellowship while at hunt (legal and in-season, of course), and engaged in shooting competitions. Many a freind was made at such events, and glad I am to know them.

Other people may view firearms as a means to killing other people, but I, sir, do not.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

Guest:

1) Try acquiring a moniker, even if you don't sign up to the board. It makes for a much more coherent argument, because you can be properly identified. You also get far more respect from everyone else for the simple fact that you look much less like a troll!

2) I suggest you desist from the sneering & snide personal remarks. It adds nothing to your arguments & impresses no-one. Quite the reverse.

3) There is nothing 'weak' about my intellect, thank you. I am both a re-enactor & an archer. I shoot longbow exclusively, up to 4-5 times a week. At the moment I'm mixing posting on Mudcat with fletching more arrows. Are you so very sure that you know more about the historical context than me?

4) Your analogies are fallacious! By your remarks, you display considerable ignorance of social, military & historical context. Like all too many people, you seem to have investigated a given topic only far enough to confirm the prejudices you had before you started! A longbow is no more a 'personal sidearm' than any standard issue infantry rifle. A crossbow is not "the assault rifle of its day". Such comments display your lack of knowledge. Frankly, I wouldn't even subscribe to the implied "personal sidearms need more training than assault rifles".

I won't suggest you stick to music. I will suggest you stick to talking of modern weaponry (with which you presumably are pretty familiar?), & leave out the erroneous historical parallels!

Oh, and no, personal sidearms aren't the original discussion, but it was YOU that used the phrase first... ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

Peter T:

"Considering that the Party that spends taxpayers money on foreign fields, is daily encroaching on individual rights, and is letting the elderly and children and anyone else without decent socialist health care rot is also the prime supporter of guns R' us, is there not something a tad twilight zone about all this ridiculous "vassal to no man" rhetoric?"

No.

This is America, where one does not have to allign themselves with any particular party. The two mainstream parties are both corrupted beyond redemption. Both have lost sight of the Founding Fathers' vision. I assume the party you refer to is the Republican pparty; Bush and company are no friend to the Constitution, in case one hasn't taken notice of recent events.

As such I am no follower of theirs. I follow the letter of the Constitution, and all else can go to thunder.

It is high time for reform, and God knows it will be welcomed with open arms when it commes.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

Neighmond - I confess I bridled a bit at the tone of your inital post (I'm not particularly pro- or anti- gun, I should mention). Latterly... *sigh* I can only wish that all gun owners were as responsible as you seem to be. The trouble is, we all know that they're not & that 'education' simply doesn't get through to them. Then again, neither, seemingly, do stricter laws. What the solution is I don't know. I'm inclined to agree with Clinton though - get rid of all the people... ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Raedwulf,

Thank you for the complimment.

Perhaps a good place to start would be the enforcement of the laws already in effect. To do so would practically negate the need for further legeslation.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

Practically speaking, I see no indication that any prohibition laws work. If people want something they'll get it. In the time of the Volstead Act, you could buy drinkin' alcohol in pretty much any town in the US. I read Henry Miller when his books were illegal. You can get guns in the UK & in New York City. You can get illicit drugs even in jail. Before Roe vs Wade there were abortions.

People will even make their own drugs, porn, zip guns -- does anyone remember those? -- if all else fails. Homemade drugs and abortions are particularly bad.

And the people you are trying to keep these things from are the ones most likely to seek them out.

Clint


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM

"I'm inclined to agree with Clinton though - get rid of all the people..."

Thanks for your support....

Chaz...

I'm pro-hunting... I guess... even though seems like an anachronism these days... although it does provide one access to much better meat than a grocery store...

That aside, I'm still anti-firearm... ya wanna hunt?? take yer chances with a bow like a REAL sportsman...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM

Raedwulf. I would not say that I know more about any subject of history as I do not know you personally. I applaud your use of the Longbow its a wonderfull sport and recreation. I started using the Longbow in 1968 and have been a re-enactor myself. My knowledge of weaponry is not restricted to firearms alone. Unlike you I alluded nothing personal about having a monopoly on historical knowledge. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Of course a longbow is a very effective and lethal waapon, a lot more so than guns were for a long time. But it is, from all I've heard, a pretty difficult weapon to master, and requires a lot of work to keep the skill in usable condition - which is why Edward and other monarchs were so keen on ensuring a supply of people with that skill, and making them keep in practice.

(And if I'm wrong about that, Raedwulf, and learning to use the longbow is really a doddle after all, correct me.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM

ClintonHammond:

I have an undivided 40 acres...when can you come over?

A good bowman feathering in to some dinnner on the hoof could show some of my hunting friends a thing or two about accuracy, I'll say that. I hunt with a gun because I am very poor shakes at best with a bow.

FWIW, my neighbor's grandfather was 6'9' tall, 295 punds on the hoof, and walked in leather-soled moccosans without a sound. He could sneak up and off a dear in less time than it took the rest of us to load and fire.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

that should be 6'9"

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM

A short synopsis of Heston's appearance in Bowling for Columbine:

As startled and grateful as he is at this moment, there's no question that Moore has an agenda. He's never pretended to be objective, but instead sees his filmmaking and tv work as a kind of pop-cultural agitprop. He pursues his subjects -- GM's Roger Smith, Nike's Phil Knight, and here, NRA president and voluble spokesperson Charlton Heston -- with a relentlessness that is sometimes funny, sometimes grating, and always disquieting for someone (usually the subject). Here, Moore finally talks his way into Heston's L.A. gates, whereupon he asks him pointedly about his NRA speechmaking (in the wake of Columbine and again, during a rally in Flint just after the shooting of 6-year-old citizen Kayla Rolland by another first-grader). Heston insists he didn't know about Kayla's murder, and refuses to apologize.

Moore pushes on, pressing Heston to come up with possible reasons for the States' inordinate rates of gun violence, Heston hems and haws, suggests "historical" proclivities (until Moore points out that Germany and Japan have violent histories and remarkably low gun violence stats), then finally blurts that it must be bound up in American "mixed ethnicity." Moore doesn't wait, but repeats the phrase back to Heston, who blanches when he hears his own words come back at him. He cuts off the interview and shambles off, his back retreating from the camera as Moore asks him to look at little Kayla's photo.

Certainly, Heston, virulent and nonsensical, is an easy target, and hardly worth the amount of time that Bowling for Columbine spends on him. But his slip speaks to the slippery workings, unconscious or hyperconscious, of U.S. culture, politics, and morality, an inexorable campaign of fear and consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:32 PM

Just because Heston makes a bonehead of himself doesn't mean the rest of responsible gun-owners are that way. I have my own theory about fire-arm related violence, which you may read elsewhere in this thread.

FWIW, I don't apologize for my views, either. I think the murders at Columbine were unspeakable tragedy, but responsible gun-owners had nothing to do with it. Those two boys broke 20 existing gun laws if they broke one. Likewise, the parents of the child shooter of Kayla Rolland clearly weren't responsible. No law in the world can change that.

Germany and China may have lower gun-related violence than us, but if someone is out to so ill it can be done with a stick, blade, rope or any number of everyday items. People will simply finnd other way to kill. That's a sad hard fact.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

I am sorry, I ought to have said Japan, not China. My fault.

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM

McG - there's a difference between longbow & warbow. The warbow requires regular practice if only because of the great strength required to draw it. A modern Olympic recurve usually draws about 35-40lb, max. The average warbow draws @135lb! Now you know why regular practice was required...

A hunting bow would be much lighter. The actual technique of archery is not *that* difficult to acquire. The difficulty is in keeping that technique steady when you are drawing weights at (or close to) your physical limits. I'm a reasonable shot. With a 45lb ash self- longbow, you'd be taking your life in your hands to stand in front of me at any distance up to 60y. That's more than hunting distance in most cases. As to 45lb draw, it's not as light as it might sound, but anyone used to regular physical effort (as most medieval people certainly would be) would have no problem drawing it.

135lb is another matter. That's why regular practice was required - to build & maintain the necessary muscle mass to cope with the demands required. A crossbow can be spanned with mechanical leverage, a longbow can't. This is why the French could buy companies of mercenary c/bowmen. It's the reason why they couldn't 'buy' longbowmen (it takes years of training & practice to be able to pull a warbow). It's also the reason why Guest is talking rubbish when he claims that a c/bow is 'an assault rifle'...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM

Charlton Heston had been diagnosed with early signs of Alzeimers disease when Moore interviewed him. A classic sympton of Dementia is loss of short term memory; not to mention the stress of knowing he was losing his ability to debate and work for the NRA. He was not replaced by the NRA because of his interview, but because of his illness, which he has met with grace and dignity; something Mr Moore completely lacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM

Guest:

1) Try acquiring a moniker, *FAILED*

2) I suggest you desist from the sneering & snide personal remarks. *FAILED*

I alluded nothing about a monopoly on historical knowledge. I merely pointed out that you were, & are, talking crap. I know enough to know that you know not half so much as you would like others to believe. I know enough to know that that you know only enough to support the views you want to hold, & you stopped right there... I notice you haven't defended or repeated the 'personal sidearm' or 'assault rifle' so far. Care to justify those remarks? I'll be blunt, I don't think you can. If I did, I wouldn't have been pulling you up in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM

*Sigh* Raedwulf I did put Enough Said in my last post. I have no desire to debate in depth on this subject, because you only have a limited understanding of the word metaphor.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM

Yes Guest, you did, & if you look at where you put it, it looks like a cheap shot, doesn't it? "You know nothing, enough said".

As to metaphor, I know exactly what it means, & you haven't used one yet. You've tried to draw various parallels between the modern & medieval worlds that don't exist. Parallels are not metaphors (not necessarily, anyway, & in this case, not at all). And you've waffled. Oh, and you're still embarassingly anonymous & trollish. You're not doing very well so far, Guest...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM

Neighmond - I was simply filling in a piece of information left out in the initial post for those who had not seen "Bowling For Columbine". I agree with your comment re: responsible gun owners. I even think that Heston was a responsible gun owner but with his current affliction ought to be disarmed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

Yes, SINs, but if he was Canadian, and the paperwork was not exactly correct, all his guns would be forfeited to the govermnment, not his heirs. In Canada, officers have arrived at the house after the funeral and demanded the weapons be surrendered by the spouse on the basis that the proper paperwork was not in order. May veee see your paaaapers ?.


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