mudcat.org: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell

GUEST 26 Apr 03 - 09:44 PM
kendall 26 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM
Hillheader 27 Apr 03 - 03:08 AM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 06:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM
Leo Condie 27 Apr 03 - 06:53 AM
gnu 27 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM
kendall 27 Apr 03 - 09:13 AM
DonMeixner 27 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM
Metchosin 27 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 12:32 PM
Charley Noble 27 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM
DonMeixner 27 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM
Metchosin 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM
Peter T. 27 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:32 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM
Raedwulf 27 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM
SINSULL 27 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM
gnu 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM
The Walrus 27 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM
Neighmond 27 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM
Little Hawk 28 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM
katlaughing 28 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM
DougR 28 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM
Ebbie 28 Apr 03 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,pdc 28 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM
Neighmond 28 Apr 03 - 06:26 AM
katlaughing 28 Apr 03 - 08:15 AM
Little Hawk 28 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM
harvey andrews 28 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM
The O'Meara 28 Apr 03 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,pdc 28 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM
Ebbie 28 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM
TIA 28 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM
The O'Meara 28 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM
GUEST 28 Apr 03 - 06:09 PM
artbrooks 28 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Clareling 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM
Raedwulf 28 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM
SINSULL 28 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM
GUEST 28 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM
GUEST 28 Apr 03 - 10:42 PM
The Walrus 29 Apr 03 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,petr 29 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM
gnu 29 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM
Ebbie 29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 03 - 06:51 PM
Little Hawk 29 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM
Hillheader 30 Apr 03 - 01:08 PM
gnu 30 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Raedwulf 30 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM
Hillheader 30 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Apr 03 - 05:15 PM
Hillheader 30 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM
SINSULL 30 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM
Raedwulf 30 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 03 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,pdc 30 Apr 03 - 09:30 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM
katlaughing 30 Apr 03 - 10:12 PM
NicoleC 30 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM
Nerd 01 May 03 - 03:11 AM
GUEST 01 May 03 - 03:40 AM
GUEST 01 May 03 - 03:43 AM
katlaughing 01 May 03 - 04:03 AM
Raedwulf 01 May 03 - 06:14 PM
NicoleC 01 May 03 - 06:37 PM
Raedwulf 01 May 03 - 07:29 PM
NicoleC 01 May 03 - 07:55 PM
The O'Meara 01 May 03 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,pdc 01 May 03 - 09:31 PM
Nerd 02 May 03 - 11:47 AM
The O'Meara 02 May 03 - 02:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 03 - 02:46 PM
Nerd 02 May 03 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 02 May 03 - 06:40 PM
Raedwulf 03 May 03 - 04:00 PM
KateG 03 May 03 - 05:45 PM
Raedwulf 03 May 03 - 08:23 PM
Doug_Remley 04 May 03 - 01:32 AM
Ebbie 04 May 03 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,bob neighmond 11 Dec 04 - 07:55 PM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 09:44 PM

Seems that Michael Moore & his 'Bowling for Columbine' brought old Chuck down after all. Heston made his 'farewell' speech to the NRA convention today:

Charlton Heston's Farewell to the NRA

Remember, Heston's Alzheimer's announcement was made just after the debut of 'Bowling for Columbine' which obviously made him look too frighteningly real even for the NRA. And get a load of the war mongering and warrior rhetoric in his taped farewell speech!

No surprise about his replacement, though. Another Republican party hack.

"Heston will be succeeded by Kayne Robinson, former chairman of the Iowa State Republican Party.

After the tape, Heston moved to the podium, where he repeated his trademark "cold dead hands" phrase and made a few remarks of thanks."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM

Cold dead HEAD, is more like it.

Mr. LaPierre never did answer my letter in which I pointed out when he lied. Big surprise, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:08 AM

That's scary. Makes be glad to be in the UK where we are clamping down on gun posession and use. After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something. In a current amnesty however an AK47 assualt rifle was handed in to Police. I dread to think what is still out there and who may be holding it.

Davebhoy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:12 AM

Davebhoy,
with all respect due in this case, I feel a responce is in order.

"That's scary. Makes be glad to be in the UK where we are clamping down on gun posession and use."

Perhaps if we as parents spent less time working two jobs so a benevolant government can send our hard-earned pay to distant fields while our own elders die in their chairs and beds for lack of medicine, and our babies cry from the misery of their little empty bellies, and spend more time bringing up our children right, we wouldn't have this problem. Dicipline begins at home with parental guidance, and supervision. Parents are NOT there to be "friends"! Sad but true. You cannot dump your babies on an outside party and expect them to turn out right. Furthermore, it is high damnded time that people begin taking responsibility for their own actions and shortcomings. If you fail in your job as a parent and your child thinks they have to use a firearm to attain some unspeakably evil end, don't cry to the many ears about the BIG BAD TEWWABLE GUN BOOGIE MEN. Look in the mirror. Look right into the eyes of the face in that mirror and begin addressing the real culprit.

I am a citizen of the United States. As such I am a vassel to no man. I will bow to no ruler and I damnded sure won't allow some tinhorn four-flushing wanna-be grand hi-pubah in a city that remains perpetually out of touch with those who support its very existance steal my birthright.

"After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something."

One thing that the gun-snatchers and their hangers-on politely leave out of their hype-rallies:

You cannot legeslate common sence.

No firearm from the dawn of gunpowder to this date has ever (EVER)loaded itself, leveled itself, taken its own aim, cocked back its own hammer, and discharged a load of shot into some hapless victem. It takes the malice in the brain, the wickedness in the heart, the complacent hand and the seeing eye to set into motion the event of death by acute lead poisoning.

"In a current amnesty however an AK47 assualt rifle was handed in to Police. I dread to think what is still out there and who may be holding it."

Do you really think the criminals will sit up in their nasty dens of misdoing, and hearing anouncement of further legeslation, say "Well, Louie, that does it for us! The law says we can't have a gun along when we take off convenience stores!"

Not very likely, is it?

Louis L'Amour had it pegged: "When bureaucrats outlaw guns, only outlows will have them."

Offered with the utmost respect.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM

What has always puzzled me has been that the "cold dead hands" quote is apparently supposed to evince a supportive response.

Rather than one of "That's fine by me, if that's how you want it".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Leo Condie
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 06:53 AM

dear neighmond

it doesn't eradicate gun use completely, but the harder guns are to get hold of, the less psychos get hold of them :) your argument seems to be "Well criminals are crazy so we should be allowed guns because we're not!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM

I live in Canada, where gun laws introduced over the last fifteen years for the exact same reasoning above have contributed to the crime of "home invasion", most victims being the elderly and women. The occurance of this crime is becoming more frequent every day in my area. I just hope it's anti-gun lobby people who get robbed and beaten in their own homes because I am sure they will cope with the trauma better than those who still own a gun but, by law, can't use it to defend themselves IN their own home.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:13 AM

Right on, Chaz, we must changed our mind set and deal with the CAUSES of gun violence.
There have been, and always will be guns. They will be in the hands of nuts, and, I see gun ownership as levelling the playing field.
Florida used to be an unsafe place to be, but, after they passed a "right to carry" law, violent crime went way down. It doesn't take a huge brain to figure out why.

In my own state, we have 1 million total population; there are 10,000 concealed weapon permits out there, Vermont has no law on concealed weapons, yet, we are two of the safest states in the union. Why? I'll bet that our collective mind set is the reason. It's also possible that we are not crowded into too small a space like NY city dwellers. They have their "Sullivan Law" but it is next to useless. As stated before, you can not legislate common sense, and, in my opinion, living in a big city is an un natural act.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM

""No firearm from the dawn of gunpowder to this date has ever (EVER)loaded itself, leveled itself, taken its own aim, cocked back its own hammer, and discharged a load of shot into some hapless victem. It takes the malice in the brain, the wickedness in the heart, the complacent hand and the seeing eye to set into motion the event of death by acute lead poisoning.""

Nicely said.

Gun ownership in the states is a right. But rights also require responsibility. It should be incumbent on all gun owners to learn how to use and store them safely.

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM

Gee Neighmond, so sorry to hear that times are so tough for you at this moment, despite two jobs. Perhaps if you hocked your gun and computer you could buy some food and medicine with the money to help keep your family through this tough time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:32 PM

In NYC, theoretically only the police and the bad guys have guns. I have always found it amazing when a criminal is shot while commiting a crime, sues, and WINS sometimes millions. The process takes years so that his original victim, who usually has not filed a civil suit because the criminal is penniless, can not turn around and claim a share of the booty. So the low life lives on millions, though he is crippled, and the upstanding citizen, also crippled, lives on disability insurance.

I now live in Maine and still don't own a gun. But the bad guys don't know that...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM

I wonder what St. Peter will say when ol' Chalatan Heston hauls his arsenal up to the Pearly Gates?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM

Charleton Heston...Altzeimers and Dementia...NRA. All hangs together, doesn't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM

Art,

No, it doesn't.

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM

In that connection, let us turn back the clock a bit. In the year 1369, Edward III, one of England's truly great monarchs, issued the following order:
"Cause public proclamation to be made, that everyone strong in body at leisure time on holidays use in his recreation the bow and arrow and learn and exercise the art of shooting - forbidding all and singular on our behalf that they do not after any manner apply themselves to the throwing of stones, wood, iron, handball, football, bandyball, cambuck, or cock fighting; nor to other such like vain plays which have no profit in them, under pain of imprisonment."

Edward Rex, Westminster, 12th day of June 1369

Edward was not frightened of his people, or of law abiding citizens being armed with the deadliest instrument of battle in his arsenal. The Longbow being the equivalent of a personal firearm in 1369.

The NRA promote safety training and the enforcement of laws. Charleton Heston has been the target of biased liberal hatred, and personal slight for years. The nature of this thread disgusts me, I lost my father to this disease. (he refused treatment for cancer while still capable of understanding his predicament) I have admired Mr Heston as an accomplished actor, and a man of great oratory skill. You should be ashamed of this thread, he cannot defend himself; and you have no reason to continue such infantile rhetoric.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

Ya...

Guns don't kill people...

PEOPLE with guns kill people...

So there are 2 sides of the equation we can work with...

Remove all the guns, or remove all the people...

I'm all for the latter!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM

I would like to apologize for the tone of my last post. I especially regret offending anyone who has also had family members stricken with these diseases, as I have.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM

Now the National Longbow Association would be a much better idea. You have to work pretty hard at it before you've much cahnce of doing any real damage with a longbow. Unlike a handgun, where anyone can shoot members of their family who are trying to sneak in the house late at night, without any training at all.

Incidentally - if it's the National Rifle Association, why doesn't it stick to rifles?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

I take it quite a few of you engaging in this discussion haven't seen Charlton Heston in the Michael Moore film 'Bowling for Columbine'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM

Obviously your knowledge of Longbows is as weak as your knowledge of firearms McGrath. The Longbow was still more efficient on the battlefield than early firearms, and the Crossbow became the assault rifle of its day (requiring less training to use than the Longbow) both capable of penetrating armour plate (bullet proof vests) Interestingly enough, the Crossbow is considered a firearm in Canada.

The NRA became involved in all aspects of firearm ownership because of the political social engineering attempts, to destroy all shooting sports by people like you. Your statement about the use of handguns without training is however the main focus of why the NRA does its best to provide safety training. Their main function at one time was to encourage enforcement of responsible gun laws, and promote safe training in firearm use. They shifted to political involvement in all aspects of the shooting sports, because of uninformed political activity to ban all use of personal firearms. On that note why dont you stick to music?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

McGrath, you're not as right as you might like to think you are! And I'm a pretty good shot with a longbow... ;)

And as for Guest, in case you hadn't noticed, the world has changed a bit in the last 750-odd years. Ed III's edict (thank you for that - it was being discussed in another thread & I couldn't remember the date!) had absolutely bugger all to do with crime or personal protection. I really can't be bothered to argue in detail, because gun threads are always polarized 'twixt gun nuts & gun haters so it makes 'discussion a bit pointless, but your quote of a 14thC Law is asinine & irrelevant. Your understanding of 14thC life is equally limited & puerile ("The Longbow being the equivalent of a personal firearm in 1369" - {rollseyes} no, not at all!).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

Metchosin

"Gee Neighmond, so sorry to hear that times are so tough for you at this moment, despite two jobs. Perhaps if you hocked your gun and computer you could buy some food and medicine with the money to help keep your family through this tough time."

I will hock nothing. The rifle and shotgun can provide food for body, and the computer provides a means of study, wherein I may gain knowledge, which, as we alll know, is food for the brain.

Without either all is lost.

Chaz.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM

Raedwulf, personal firearms being the topic, I chose to use the example of Edwards law, to show people were encouraged to train with weapons 750 years ago. As to knowledge of history, I would point out that only dictators want to control personal weapons. England did not have a standing army, and relied on its people to own and maintain proficiency with the deadly accurate Longbow. You may roll your eyes all you want sir, but if the analogy is lost to you it shows weakness of intellect on your part not mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM

Actually, personal firearms aren't the topic. Charlton Heston being driven out of his NRA leadership position by his appearance in Michael Moore's film 'Bowling for Columbine', is the topic. Not to be nitpicking, or anything. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Sorry Neighmond ......sounds a bit too much like The Ballad of Hollis Brown to me.....to depressing to contemplate for long.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Michael Moore is an asshole, and his film bullshit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM

Truth hurts eh Guest 03:20...

"shooting sports"

Talk about bullshit... Guns are NOT sport... they are for KILLING... Plain and simple... Killing humans is what they were invented for...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM

Metchosin

Don't appologise to me, respectful debate builds nations.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM

Considering that the Party that spends taxpayers money on foreign fields, is daily encroaching on individual rights, and is letting the elderly and children and anyone else without decent socialist health care rot is also the prime supporter of guns R' us, is there not something a tad twilight zone about all this ridiculous "vassal to no man" rhetoric?

yours, Peter T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM

ClintonHammond:

"Talk about bullshit... Guns are NOT sport... they are for KILLING... Plain and simple... Killing humans is what they were invented for... "

It may interest you to know that my firearms have not taken part in any human exterminations, nor will they. Here is what my firearms have done:

At my hand, my firearms have provided many a fine meal to many people.

At my hand, my firearms have provided more than one fine coat and hat (from the same deer we ate, nothing went to waste.)

At my hand, my firearms have provided protection from a drunken and dangerous man, who was detained untill the authorities could remand him to the appropriate facility.

I have spent many a plesant afternoon in fellowship while at hunt (legal and in-season, of course), and engaged in shooting competitions. Many a freind was made at such events, and glad I am to know them.

Other people may view firearms as a means to killing other people, but I, sir, do not.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

Guest:

1) Try acquiring a moniker, even if you don't sign up to the board. It makes for a much more coherent argument, because you can be properly identified. You also get far more respect from everyone else for the simple fact that you look much less like a troll!

2) I suggest you desist from the sneering & snide personal remarks. It adds nothing to your arguments & impresses no-one. Quite the reverse.

3) There is nothing 'weak' about my intellect, thank you. I am both a re-enactor & an archer. I shoot longbow exclusively, up to 4-5 times a week. At the moment I'm mixing posting on Mudcat with fletching more arrows. Are you so very sure that you know more about the historical context than me?

4) Your analogies are fallacious! By your remarks, you display considerable ignorance of social, military & historical context. Like all too many people, you seem to have investigated a given topic only far enough to confirm the prejudices you had before you started! A longbow is no more a 'personal sidearm' than any standard issue infantry rifle. A crossbow is not "the assault rifle of its day". Such comments display your lack of knowledge. Frankly, I wouldn't even subscribe to the implied "personal sidearms need more training than assault rifles".

I won't suggest you stick to music. I will suggest you stick to talking of modern weaponry (with which you presumably are pretty familiar?), & leave out the erroneous historical parallels!

Oh, and no, personal sidearms aren't the original discussion, but it was YOU that used the phrase first... ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

Peter T:

"Considering that the Party that spends taxpayers money on foreign fields, is daily encroaching on individual rights, and is letting the elderly and children and anyone else without decent socialist health care rot is also the prime supporter of guns R' us, is there not something a tad twilight zone about all this ridiculous "vassal to no man" rhetoric?"

No.

This is America, where one does not have to allign themselves with any particular party. The two mainstream parties are both corrupted beyond redemption. Both have lost sight of the Founding Fathers' vision. I assume the party you refer to is the Republican pparty; Bush and company are no friend to the Constitution, in case one hasn't taken notice of recent events.

As such I am no follower of theirs. I follow the letter of the Constitution, and all else can go to thunder.

It is high time for reform, and God knows it will be welcomed with open arms when it commes.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

Neighmond - I confess I bridled a bit at the tone of your inital post (I'm not particularly pro- or anti- gun, I should mention). Latterly... *sigh* I can only wish that all gun owners were as responsible as you seem to be. The trouble is, we all know that they're not & that 'education' simply doesn't get through to them. Then again, neither, seemingly, do stricter laws. What the solution is I don't know. I'm inclined to agree with Clinton though - get rid of all the people... ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Raedwulf,

Thank you for the complimment.

Perhaps a good place to start would be the enforcement of the laws already in effect. To do so would practically negate the need for further legeslation.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

Practically speaking, I see no indication that any prohibition laws work. If people want something they'll get it. In the time of the Volstead Act, you could buy drinkin' alcohol in pretty much any town in the US. I read Henry Miller when his books were illegal. You can get guns in the UK & in New York City. You can get illicit drugs even in jail. Before Roe vs Wade there were abortions.

People will even make their own drugs, porn, zip guns -- does anyone remember those? -- if all else fails. Homemade drugs and abortions are particularly bad.

And the people you are trying to keep these things from are the ones most likely to seek them out.

Clint


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM

"I'm inclined to agree with Clinton though - get rid of all the people..."

Thanks for your support....

Chaz...

I'm pro-hunting... I guess... even though seems like an anachronism these days... although it does provide one access to much better meat than a grocery store...

That aside, I'm still anti-firearm... ya wanna hunt?? take yer chances with a bow like a REAL sportsman...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM

Raedwulf. I would not say that I know more about any subject of history as I do not know you personally. I applaud your use of the Longbow its a wonderfull sport and recreation. I started using the Longbow in 1968 and have been a re-enactor myself. My knowledge of weaponry is not restricted to firearms alone. Unlike you I alluded nothing personal about having a monopoly on historical knowledge. Enough said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Of course a longbow is a very effective and lethal waapon, a lot more so than guns were for a long time. But it is, from all I've heard, a pretty difficult weapon to master, and requires a lot of work to keep the skill in usable condition - which is why Edward and other monarchs were so keen on ensuring a supply of people with that skill, and making them keep in practice.

(And if I'm wrong about that, Raedwulf, and learning to use the longbow is really a doddle after all, correct me.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM

ClintonHammond:

I have an undivided 40 acres...when can you come over?

A good bowman feathering in to some dinnner on the hoof could show some of my hunting friends a thing or two about accuracy, I'll say that. I hunt with a gun because I am very poor shakes at best with a bow.

FWIW, my neighbor's grandfather was 6'9' tall, 295 punds on the hoof, and walked in leather-soled moccosans without a sound. He could sneak up and off a dear in less time than it took the rest of us to load and fire.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

that should be 6'9"

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM

A short synopsis of Heston's appearance in Bowling for Columbine:

As startled and grateful as he is at this moment, there's no question that Moore has an agenda. He's never pretended to be objective, but instead sees his filmmaking and tv work as a kind of pop-cultural agitprop. He pursues his subjects -- GM's Roger Smith, Nike's Phil Knight, and here, NRA president and voluble spokesperson Charlton Heston -- with a relentlessness that is sometimes funny, sometimes grating, and always disquieting for someone (usually the subject). Here, Moore finally talks his way into Heston's L.A. gates, whereupon he asks him pointedly about his NRA speechmaking (in the wake of Columbine and again, during a rally in Flint just after the shooting of 6-year-old citizen Kayla Rolland by another first-grader). Heston insists he didn't know about Kayla's murder, and refuses to apologize.

Moore pushes on, pressing Heston to come up with possible reasons for the States' inordinate rates of gun violence, Heston hems and haws, suggests "historical" proclivities (until Moore points out that Germany and Japan have violent histories and remarkably low gun violence stats), then finally blurts that it must be bound up in American "mixed ethnicity." Moore doesn't wait, but repeats the phrase back to Heston, who blanches when he hears his own words come back at him. He cuts off the interview and shambles off, his back retreating from the camera as Moore asks him to look at little Kayla's photo.

Certainly, Heston, virulent and nonsensical, is an easy target, and hardly worth the amount of time that Bowling for Columbine spends on him. But his slip speaks to the slippery workings, unconscious or hyperconscious, of U.S. culture, politics, and morality, an inexorable campaign of fear and consumption.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:32 PM

Just because Heston makes a bonehead of himself doesn't mean the rest of responsible gun-owners are that way. I have my own theory about fire-arm related violence, which you may read elsewhere in this thread.

FWIW, I don't apologize for my views, either. I think the murders at Columbine were unspeakable tragedy, but responsible gun-owners had nothing to do with it. Those two boys broke 20 existing gun laws if they broke one. Likewise, the parents of the child shooter of Kayla Rolland clearly weren't responsible. No law in the world can change that.

Germany and China may have lower gun-related violence than us, but if someone is out to so ill it can be done with a stick, blade, rope or any number of everyday items. People will simply finnd other way to kill. That's a sad hard fact.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

I am sorry, I ought to have said Japan, not China. My fault.

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM

McG - there's a difference between longbow & warbow. The warbow requires regular practice if only because of the great strength required to draw it. A modern Olympic recurve usually draws about 35-40lb, max. The average warbow draws @135lb! Now you know why regular practice was required...

A hunting bow would be much lighter. The actual technique of archery is not *that* difficult to acquire. The difficulty is in keeping that technique steady when you are drawing weights at (or close to) your physical limits. I'm a reasonable shot. With a 45lb ash self- longbow, you'd be taking your life in your hands to stand in front of me at any distance up to 60y. That's more than hunting distance in most cases. As to 45lb draw, it's not as light as it might sound, but anyone used to regular physical effort (as most medieval people certainly would be) would have no problem drawing it.

135lb is another matter. That's why regular practice was required - to build & maintain the necessary muscle mass to cope with the demands required. A crossbow can be spanned with mechanical leverage, a longbow can't. This is why the French could buy companies of mercenary c/bowmen. It's the reason why they couldn't 'buy' longbowmen (it takes years of training & practice to be able to pull a warbow). It's also the reason why Guest is talking rubbish when he claims that a c/bow is 'an assault rifle'...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM

Charlton Heston had been diagnosed with early signs of Alzeimers disease when Moore interviewed him. A classic sympton of Dementia is loss of short term memory; not to mention the stress of knowing he was losing his ability to debate and work for the NRA. He was not replaced by the NRA because of his interview, but because of his illness, which he has met with grace and dignity; something Mr Moore completely lacks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM

Guest:

1) Try acquiring a moniker, *FAILED*

2) I suggest you desist from the sneering & snide personal remarks. *FAILED*

I alluded nothing about a monopoly on historical knowledge. I merely pointed out that you were, & are, talking crap. I know enough to know that you know not half so much as you would like others to believe. I know enough to know that that you know only enough to support the views you want to hold, & you stopped right there... I notice you haven't defended or repeated the 'personal sidearm' or 'assault rifle' so far. Care to justify those remarks? I'll be blunt, I don't think you can. If I did, I wouldn't have been pulling you up in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM

*Sigh* Raedwulf I did put Enough Said in my last post. I have no desire to debate in depth on this subject, because you only have a limited understanding of the word metaphor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM

Yes Guest, you did, & if you look at where you put it, it looks like a cheap shot, doesn't it? "You know nothing, enough said".

As to metaphor, I know exactly what it means, & you haven't used one yet. You've tried to draw various parallels between the modern & medieval worlds that don't exist. Parallels are not metaphors (not necessarily, anyway, & in this case, not at all). And you've waffled. Oh, and you're still embarassingly anonymous & trollish. You're not doing very well so far, Guest...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM

Neighmond - I was simply filling in a piece of information left out in the initial post for those who had not seen "Bowling For Columbine". I agree with your comment re: responsible gun owners. I even think that Heston was a responsible gun owner but with his current affliction ought to be disarmed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

Yes, SINs, but if he was Canadian, and the paperwork was not exactly correct, all his guns would be forfeited to the govermnment, not his heirs. In Canada, officers have arrived at the house after the funeral and demanded the weapons be surrendered by the spouse on the basis that the proper paperwork was not in order. May veee see your paaaapers ?.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM

I've missed most of this thread, so, if it's been said already, I apologise:

"...After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something..."

I found it amusing that the majority of 'anti-gunners' I've seen and/or met drive cars or are driven.

More children are killed in London in a month than were killed in the whole year of Dunblane. Perhaps "Saint Ann" bryson (or whatever her name was) would have been better trying to ban cars.

If the loony with the gun had chosen to get tanked up and drive his car into the school gates when the kids were coming out, whould there have been such a outcry against cars? I think not. Responsible gun owners were an easy target (especially for the tabloids).

Remember, making gun ownership illegal only affected LEGAL gun owners
(and before anyone else says it, yes, I know Hamilton had a licence, but at least one of the weapons he used wasn't on it).

Embittered ex-pistol shooter

Walrus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM

SINSULL,

In respect to Heston I would probably agree that he should do something practical with his guns-donate them to a museum, give them to friends and family, whatever. I think that in not too long a time he will be unable to make many rational desisions, and may do something he would never even dream of doing now, and it's best to not put danger in front of him.

Thanks for pointing that out-

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM

Just saw "Bowling For Columbine" today in Barrie, Ontario, Canada. It's a pretty heavy movie. It makes some very good points, and at the same time engages in some rather manipulative tactics to do it. Michael Moore put together a very powerful film, but he compromised himself a bit here and there, in order to score points...

For instance: I know any number of Canadians who lock their houses, although I don't doubt that Americans are more inclined to do so. His Canadian interviews were pretty selective. Moore gave the impression that virtually no Canadian locks his house. Simply not true. It is true that Canada has a far lower per capita crime rate than the USA, however, as he pointed out also.

Moore deliberately maneuvered Charlton Heston into a very unpleasant position in a rather sneaky manner, and he was an invited guest in Heston's home at the time. I actually felt a little sorry for Heston, although I've always tended to sharply disagree with his politics...about guns and in general.

At the same time, I could understand Moore's legitimate concerns, and what he was trying to achieve. He just did it in a rather sneaky manner, I thought, under the circumstances.

The burning question Moore was trying to get answered was: Why is there such a high incidence of gun-related violence (per capita) in the USA? Why is it worse in the USA than in other developed countries.

He was implying that it is because guns are too easily available (perhaps)...and the media is sensationalist (absolutely true!), causing people to be extra paranoid in the USA (absolutely true), and there is a strong tradition of using guns in the USA (also true).

So, all of those things may be taken into account as factors...but...there are a hell of a lot of guns in Canada too...and very little gun-related violence. So what's the story on that?

I think the key is this: The USA is a society where every key decision made comes down to MONEY. If you've got enough of it, you're okay. If you don't...you're in deep trouble. It's a "survival" based society. People in survival mode are very easily turned to violence when they doubt their capacity to survive a situation.

Now why does Canada have a national health insurance plan to pay for people's medical treatment? Because it's profitable???? NO. Because it's advantageous in social and human terms...and that outweighs the significance of dollar profit.

There is terrible poverty in the USA in many places, alongside tremendous wealth. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider all the time, and there's very little social safety net. A succession of neoconservative American governments have mostly made the situation steadily worse, specially since the Reagan era. The inner cities have been more or less abandoned. That is not trimming of over fat government, it's abdication of government!

What you have is an increasingly desperate underclass, a beleagured and frightened middle class fleeing to featureless suburbs and gated communities, and an upper class that keeps getting richer and more isolated from the troubles of the lower and middle classes...allied with a media that feeds people paranoia on a daily basis...just to make a profit!

That's a recipe for social decay, oligarchy, and the destruction of democracy...all so the rich can get richer. That's what's happening.

Ally it with a culture that celebrates a long tradition of bearing arms and using guns...and you've got a recipe for disaster.

A society that respects nothing at all except the buying power of the dollar finally respects nothing at all, period.

You don't base a sane social policy on making profits for a few players at the top, you base a sane social policy on making a better life for everybody.

That isn't being done in the USA.

Moore focused on that too. He should have focused on it more, rather than taking cheap shots at guys in gun clubs, many of whom are not the nut cases whom liberals (and I've been accused of being a "liberal" enough times) imagine when they imagine gun owners.

The people on both sides of this issue could benefit from recognizing the humanity and intelligence of the people on the other side and not merely dismissing them as stereotypical dimwits.

There is one other factor too...a national government that customarily resolves its own problems by violence should hardly be surprised when its citizenry themselves start doing the same on the home turf. Set a lousy, irresponsible example at the top, and it will be followed.

And right there lies the most crucial difference between the USA and CAnada...or most other modern developed nations in the present era. It is not considered acceptable in Canada to settle issues through violence. It has long been standard behaviour for the USA to do that on the broad stage of the World...just as if the USA was Wild Bill Hickock stalking the streets of Tombstone.

Moore touched on those matters too, but I think he took some cheap shots at what he presented as the stereotypical "gun owner". That's easy to do, but it doesn't prove much.

People love having someone to look down on, and it's as easy for liberals to fall into that moral superiority trap as it is for conservatives.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM

*sigh*...my dad, granddad, and great-granddad grew up with guns as a part of their daily lives. The code they lived by, never drawing them in anger, never pointing them unless they meant to kill, understanding the responsibility and consequences of owning and using a gun, is not a general code among many who own guns in this day and age. There are too many who own guns with no thought as to their lethal power.

Also, I believe America is much more violent, today, with the proliferation of gun ownership, than it ever was in their day. People just didn't resolve things with firepower as much back then. Of course, the exception was in self-defense as in the case of my great-grandfather.

There has to be some solution. I'd vote for Clinton's, too, if it was practical, i.e. if it excluded me and mine!**bg**

One more thought: it becomes much more difficult and more up close and personal to kill someone/thing with weapons other than guns. Anything which takes more thought and preparation can be a good thing if it gets a person cooled down enough to really think about what they are doing.

Also, I can't help but think all of the children I know of who have killed themselves or others with their adult family members' guns, may have had a lot harder time doing so with a long bow, knife, etc. At least with those, they could only take out one person at a time. Yep, that 14 year old in WY who was afraid to tell his parents he'd made less than "A"s on his report card would have had a hell of a time locking himself in the bathroom with a long bow, after school, and blowing his brains out as he did with his dad's hunting rifle.

As to self-defense, if it's up close, use a can of spray paint to the eyes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM

Guest appears to believe that Chuck Heston's Alzheimer's was brought on due to some nefarious happening. It happens, Guest, just like bodily functions do. It cannot be brought on because of ones defense of owning firearms.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:54 AM

Little Hawk, you say: There is terrible poverty in the USA in many places, alongside tremendous wealth. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider all the time, and there's very little social safety net. A succession of neoconservative American governments have mostly made the situation steadily worse, specially since the Reagan era. The inner cities have been more or less abandoned. That is not trimming of over fat government, it's abdication of government!

What you have is an increasingly desperate underclass, a beleagured and frightened middle class fleeing to featureless suburbs and gated communities, and an upper class that keeps getting richer and more isolated from the troubles of the lower and middle classes...allied with a media that feeds people paranoia on a daily basis...just to make a profit!

That's a recipe for social decay, oligarchy, and the destruction of democracy...all so the rich can get richer. That's what's happening.


What you say may be true in the HUGE cities- I don't know. I don't live there. (Neither do you, actually.) All I know is that if things where I live were as bad as you say - or where I have ever lived (I have lived in Oregon, Virginia, Michigan and Alaska, and visited many other states) I'd be quaking in my slippers behind locked and barred doors and windows.

You remind me of a childless person giving advice to a parent.   Note that I don't think you shouldn't form and give opinions- but if you were rearing a kid, you might find yourself at a loss on occasion. The same way that you might find living in the US for the most part rich, fulfilling and without fear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM

Response to Little Hawk:

I agree with virtually every word you say, and you show some keen insights into the survivor mentality. Canada has always had a survivor mentality as well (see Margaret Atwood's analysis of Canadian literature, entitled "Survival"), but Canadians have always had to survive climate, a common enemy that brought them together.

One issue you could have explored further re "Bowling for Columbine":
you ask:

"...there are a hell of a lot of guns in Canada too...and very little gun-related violence. So what's the story on that?"

Part of the story on that, which should have been made crystal clear by Moore, dammit, is the TYPE of guns that Canadians own. Most gun-owning Canadians have rifles for hunting. There are some (registered) handguns, mostly for shooting clubs, sports type stuff, etc. But -- and this is a huge but -- assault weapons, automatic machine pistols, all the heavy attack weapons that are permitted in the US, are illegal in Canada. (I don't even know the names of most of them, but you can figure out what I mean.) What are those guns for? Shooting deer? Target practice? I think not. They really serve only one purpose.

I think this is a pertinent distinction which should be emphasized.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:26 AM

Katlaughing,

I am a peace-loving man, but up close and personal or far away, if somebody posed a lethal threat to my family or myself I would kill them with my bare hands, if it came to that.

If someone is going to take their own life, the lack of a gun won't stop them for a moment. My brother commited a very thought-out and deliberate suicide (without a fire arm)and lingered in a hospital bed for 36 hours before a merciful death came.

FWIW

Chaz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:15 AM

Neighmond, I am sorry about your brother. Thank you for sharing that with us. With all due respect, though, a lack of gun may make a huge difference in such impulse suicides as I wrote of. I truly believe if that child had not had access to his father's gun that afternoon he would not be dead. It was very much an emotional, spur-of-the-moment desperate act, as many crimes of violence are, esp. when carried out by children.

Thanks, again,

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM

Ebbie - For sure, there are tens of thousands of communities in the USA that do not meet the extremed example I was giving...and I know that. I've lived in small town USA. Most of the time things seem pretty safe and peaceful in American small towns and smaller cities.

I think the aggressive conduct of the USA government itself may be the most important point of all. The USA has an estraordinarily aggessive government, and that affects the attitudes and expectations of American citizens. It can't help but do so.

pdc - Good point.

Kat - It's true that crimes are more easily committed when guns are available. However, legislation that tries to make guns less available frequently ends up hurting the wrong people, and merely complicating the lives of a lot of entirely peaceful gun owners who are not threatening anyone and don't intend to.

I think it would make more sense to establish greater social justice all around...thus reducing people's level of fear. But that would involve transforming the basis of the whole society, transforming the health care system, transforming the media, and so on, and that is what the $ySStem is not prepared to do. It will not address its own institutionalized negativity and inequality, because it's run by those who profit most from keeping things just the way they already are.

Sounds kind of like France before the Revolution...

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

I read somewhere recently...correct me if I'm wrong..that since the shooting of John Lennon more Americans have died from shootings than were killed in the whole of America's participation in World War 2.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

Suicide can have a lot to do with easy availability of the means.

When they changed the type of gas avaiable on the mains in Britain, to use North Seaas instead of Coal Gas, one side effect was that it wasn't poisonous any more. Rather to the surprise of everyone the suicide rate from all causes plummeted - between 1963 and 1975 ity went down by 40 per cent.

Sure there are always other ways of killing yourself - buy for a lot of people the fact that they couldn't end it all by sticking their head in the gas oven was enough to stop them taking their life.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:30 PM

A couple years ago, the TV show "60 Minutes" did a segment about Charleton Heston. I watched it with some trepidation, since Mike Wallace and CBS have a decidedly anti-gun bias. As it turned out, however, the whole issue of guns was secondary, and Mr. Wallace came to the conclusion that Charleton Heston was truly dedicated to preserving the freedoms we Americans are guaranteed in our constitutional bill of rights. (Remember, Charleton Heston also marched with Dr. Martin Luther King in support of civil rights for all Americans.) He just started with the 2nd amendment.

O'Meara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM

Guns or not, people determined on suicide will accomplish it eventually. One of the most hideous aspects of the net is that there are websites on how to commit suicide. I've often thought that this type of site should be brought to the attention of parents as well as the porn sites.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM

"...people determined on suicide will accomplish it...

But there are degrees of determination. And people whose degree of determination to kill themselves isn't that strong are particularly vulnerable to ways of doing so that are available on impulse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM

There was one suicide here in Juneau a few years back that had an element of humor in it. A man left a note then went out and threw himself into the ocean (in our 'front yard', so to speak). Well, our water is COLD. He scrambled out, went home and changed into dry clothes. Then hanged himself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: TIA
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

From the CNN story in Guest's opening post...

"After the tape was shown, Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, presented Heston with the "quintessential cowboy" rifle "that helped win the American West."

By shooting what...?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM

Wild game, dangerous game, bad guys, good guys and each other.

O'Meara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: The Medieval English Longbow
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:09 PM

Radwulf, A friend of mine wrote this article some time ago. I read and use the internet too. All knowledge comes from books letters and discussion not personal memories. Now Fuck Off....

From the thirteenth until the sixteenth century, the national weapon of the English army was the longbow. It was this weapon which conquered Wales and Scotland, gave the English their victories in the Hundred Years War, and permitted England to replace France as the foremost military power in Medieval Europe. The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages: accurate, deadly, possessed of a long-range and rapid rate of fire, the flight of its missilies was liken to a storm. Cheap and simple enough for the yeoman to own and master, it made him superior to a knight on the field of battle. Yet, important as this weapon was, most of our present day beliefs concerning it are based upon myth.

There are many statistics available on the longbow, but few agree. The term longbow implies a weapon of greater length than the 4 foot bow used on the continent. Geoffrey Trease, author of The Condottieri, maintains the longbow used by the 14th century mercenary troops of Sir John Hawkwood "was as tall as themselves or a fraction taller". This would make the bow approximately five feet long, since the average height of the medieval yeoman soldier was five feet to five feet two inches. The Royal Antiquaries Society of Great Britain maintains the weapon was "of five or six feet" in length. Major Richard G. Bartelot, Assistant Historical Secretary of the Royal Artillery Institution says "the bow was of yew, six feet long, with a three foot arrow".
Finally, Gaston Foebus, Count of Foix, wrote in 1388, that a longbow should be "of yew or boxwood, seventy inches between the points of attachment for the cord..." These quotes demonstrate that the weapon was considerably longer than its continental counterpart, but still leaves the length in question.

Another chracteristic of the English weapon was its superior strength. An early 14th century English inquiry into the murder of Simon de Skeltington records the instrument of death as an arrow shot from a five foot seven inch bow. "The wound measured three inches long by two inches wide and six inches deep". This was the powerful weapon used by Edward III and his son, the Black Prince, in the Hundred Years War.

The two current authorities both agree the weapon was much stronger than our present day bows. Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimates the bows of the Medieval period drew between 90 and 110 pounds, maximum. Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believes the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80 to 90 pounds.

A bow of the strength described by Stayner and Paterson would project a war arrow a long distance. But here again, no one is sure how far: Stayner believes the war arrow had an effective range of 180 yards; Paterson maintains a slightly further distance of 200 yards; and Bartelot estimates a useful range of 249 yards. Captain George Burnet, Secretary to the Royal Scottish Archers, notes that the members of the Queen's Body Guard for Scotland, who still shoot, use six foot long self yew bows of 55 to 60 pounds draw weight. The range of these modern bows is 180-200 yards shooting light target shafts.

The longbow, because of its rapidity of fire, was a medieval machine gun. It has been calculated that a bowman of the Hundred Years War period, when military archery was at its zenith, could shoot 10 to 12 arrows a minute. The closest weapon in range and strength to the longbow was the crossbow. But, as the battle of Crecy (1346) showed, even the superior Genoese composite crossbow - made of wood, horn, sinew and glue - was no match for the English weapon.16

After firearms were introduced into continental warfare, Sir John Smythe, soldier of fortune, and Queen Elizabeth's ambassador to the Spanish Court of Philip II, noted that "archers are able to discharge four or five arrows apiece before the harquebusies shall be ready to discharge one bullet.

The reason for present day confusion and controversy over the longbow is the limited number of surviving artifacts. There are no longbows in existence from the Early Middle Ages. There are, however, five surviving Renaisance weapons.

All of these bows are similar. They are nearly six feet long; made of wood; shaped in order to use both the centre and sap wood; are symmetrically tapered; and appear to have a very stiff draw weight. What is more, all five weapons are self bows. This means that they are made from a single stave of wood. Horace Ford, Champion Archer of England from 1850 to 1859, and an authority on English archery, maintained:
"The self bow of a single stave is the real old English weapon - the one with which the mighty deeds that rendered this country renounced in by-gone times were performed."

The first of the five surviving bows, by tradition, dates from the Battle of Flodden (1513). Burnet verifies that the artifact hangs on the wall of Archers Hall, headquarters of Royal Scottish Archers, in Edinburgh.

About the turn of the twentieth century, Colonel Fergusson of Huntly Burn presented it to Mr. Peter Muir of the Royal Scottish Archers. Fergusson claimed the artifact from the rafters of a house near Flodden Field where it had been for generations.

The Flodden Bow is a self yew weapon, 'probably of English yew", approximately six feet long, and "rather roughly made". The estimated strength of the weapon is between 80 and 90 pounds. Burnet's decription can be deceiving. The rough appearance of the weapon does not imply it was poorly made.

Most yew, even the kind that makes the finest bows, is quite irregular in appearance.The sapwood of the stave, following the longitudinal line of the trunk, rises and falls and tilts upwards or down in places. It has 'pins' (tiny black knots) too, as a rule."

It is ironic that a weapon should survive from this battle. "Flodden is a landmark in the history of archery, as the last battle on English soil to be fought with the longbow as the principle weapon..." Modern authors maintain that the victory of Flodden was due to archery. Indeed Longman and Walrond in their book, Archery, maintain that a 1515 statute endorsing the use of, and practice with the bow was a result of the victory. These authorities are probably correct, but not for the reasons they believe. The sole contemporary account of the battle notes "that a few of thaim (the Scots) wer slaine with arrows, how be it the billes (spears with hooks on the head) did beat and hew thaim downe..." It is apparent that the law was passed because of the poor showing of the archers.

The most interesting and least known Renaissance longbow comes from the armoury of the church in the village of Mendlesham in Suffolk, England. Records show it was there in the reign of Queen Elizabeth; however, Paterson believes it may date back to the time of Henry VIII.

Unfortunately, the Mendlesham Bow is broken. It is a self bow of 53 inches length. Paterson believes: "Assuming that the mid-point of the bow is about one inch above the centre of the grip, this would suggest a bow length of about 68-69 inches - if the remnant is an upper limb - or about 71 inches if it is the lower limb. I am inclined to suggest the former as the more likely choice."

The surviving limb tip is shaped to take a horn nock for the bow string loop. That would make the total length of the bow a little over six feet tall. Measurements suggest a draw-weight of 80 pounds at 28 inches.

The Mendlesham Bow, a typical longbow, is also unique for two reasons. First, although it is shaped to use the properties of the yew centre and sap wood; the bow's "cross-section approximated more closely to a rectangle with the corners rounded, than the reputed traditional 'D'-form" found in the other four artifacts. Second, the longitudinal taper of the bow limb is not straight but whip ended. This would better distribute the stress as the bow is drawn and force it to bend in an elipse instead of an arc.

Like the two previous artifacts, the Hedgeley Moor Bow is also something of a mystery. It is reputed to have been used at the Battle of Hedgeley Moor (1464), during the War of the Roses. The weapon was presented to Alnwick Castle by John Wilkinson, whose family lived on the Castle estate from the time of the battle.
"It is 65.5 inches inches in length, 3.5 inches at its greatest girth, with greatest width of 1.5 inches. The wood is probably yew..."

There are no nocks, but the ends have been notched to take a string. "At mid-point where the handle is, there are two deep cuts which look remakably of the shape of a bodkin head (sic) would make if it were overdrawn." Draw weight is estimated at 50 pounds.

The remaining two Renaissance longbows, like the Mendlesham artifact, come from the reign of Henry VIII. Unlike the Flodden and Hedgeley Moor Bows, we are sure of the age and use of these artifacts. They were recovered in 1836 by John Deane from H.M.S. Mary Rose. The Mary Rose, flag ship of the British fleet, sank off Portsmouth while engaging an invading French squadron on Sunday, 19th July, 1545.

These two bows are on display in the Armouries in the Tower of London. Inventory records show that they are made of yew wood, "of rounded section, tapered at tips to take the nocks, now missing". The largest of the bows is 75 inches long.The smaller stave is 72.75 inches long. Both bows are 4.5 inches at "greatest girth" and weigh 1 pound, 10 ounces. They are symmetrical weapons, utilising the same 'D'-shape as the Floddern Bow.

Both weapons are unfinished looking, but as pointed out previously, this is a characteristic of yew wood. Ford, in his study of the Mary Rose bows, notes that they are self bows, made from "foreign yew" and had an estimated draw weight of 65 to 70 pounds.36

The variation in length between the Mary Rose, the Flodden, and the Mendlesham bows; as opposed to the Hedgeley Moor artifact, lies in the fact that the individual archer had his personal bow made to measure. The Mary Rose weapons were arsenal issues meant to suit the tallest men in service. Shorter men would cut their weapons down to suit their height and arm length. This point is supported by Roger Ascham's treatise on Archery, Toxophilus, published in 1545.

During the Middle Ages, the yeoman archer was illiterate, while the scholars of the day, by virtue of their noble birth, had little knowledge of archery. Ascham was both a scholar and an ardent archer. As tutor to Elizabeth I, he had considerable influence on the royal family and was favoured by Henry VIII for his writing on this subject. Commenting on the selection and adjustment of a longbow, Ascham writes: "Take your bow in to the field, shote in hym, synke hym wyth deade heauye shaftes...whe(n) you haue thus shot in hym, and perceyued good shootynge woode in hym, you must have hym agayne to a good cunnynge, and trustie woorkeman, whyche shall cut hym shorter, and pyke him and dresse hym fytter."

All five weapons are remarkably similar and may be said to be typical longbows. They are approximately six feet tall, made of the sap and centrewood of the yew tree, are rough looking, and stiff weapons pulling between 65 and 90 pounds. Given this draw weight, a maximum effective range of approximately 200 yards with a heavy war missile is not unreasonable, especially considering the performance of the present day Scottish Archers.

The making of logbows changed little from the Medieval period until the turn of the twentieth century. They still were wooden self bows utilising the centre and sapwood of the stave. The best bows continued to be made of yew wood; and all bows were made by hand thus, each was unique.

According to Ford, yew was the only wood for a self bow, and the best yew came from Spain and Italy. The foreign wood is "straigther, finer in grain, freer from pins, stiffer and denser in quality, and requires less bulk in proportion to the strength of the bow". Stayner adds that the best wood is grown in the poor soil of the mountains; this produced the desired light grained wood.39 Ascham described the best yew for bow staves as coloured:
"...lyke virgin wax or golde, having a fine longe grayne, even from the one ende of the bowe, to the other... the short grayne are for a most part very brittle."

Staves were cut only in winter, when the sap was down. Stayner notes that the yew wood trade was tied to the wine trade. To insure an adequate supply of bows, "at one time, all wine imports (from Southern France) had to have longbow staves in the cargo as well."

Why was yew such a superior wood for bow making? The natural properties of yew are much like a modern thermostat: by skillfully cutting and shaping the stave in a 'D'-section, a layer of sapwood was left along the flattened back of the bow.

"When a bow is drawn, the inside face of the arc undergoes compression while the outer surface is stretched. The heartwood of yew is able to withstand compression and its sapwood is elastic by nature, and both tend to return to their original straightness when the bow is loosed."

Bows were not made all at once. Cut down in winter, they were roughed out and left to cure for a year or two. After the bow was "seasoned", it was worked in slow stages into the finished product. Often these steps occurred at intervals of a year for three or four years.

Once the bow was made, it would provide long service with minimum maintanance. Smythe tells us that archers of the Hundred Years War used to rub a mixture of "wax, resin, and fine tallow" into the bow to protect it from "all weather of heat, frost, and wet". Ascham says that the archers also had bow cases, not of leather, but of canvas or wool to protect their bows from the elements.

Bow strings were of two materials: in the sixteenth century, strings were made of "good hempe...(but, earlier, strings were made of)...fine Flaxe or Sylk". A waterproof glue was used to preserve the Renaissance bow string and it was reinforced by a whipping of fine thread. The strings were attached to nocks made of bone or horn.

The English Medieval war arrow, like the longbow, is a controversial subject. Known as the clothyard shaft, it was efficient, cheap, capable of being mass-produced, and "made in greater numbers than any other type of arrow in history".50 But few sources agree to its length: estimates range from 27 to 36 inches.

A close examination of the sources tend to point to approximately 27 inches as the correct figure. The clothyard was not a standard yard.The term comes from the reign of Edward III, when he introduced Flemish weavers into England. The weavers brought their own system of measurement with them. Known as the "clothyard ", "clothier's yard", "ell", or "Flemish yard", it was 27 4/10 inches long. The late John E. Morris, the acknowledged authority on the military organisation and tactics of Edward I, supports this conclusion by noting that a draw length of 36 inches from a 65 pound or strong bow is biomechanically impossible.

The final and most conclusive argument for a war arrow length of a "Flemish yard" is the sole surviving Medieval war arrow. The artifact, now in the Library of Westminster Abbey, was found in one of the turrets of the Chapter House in 1878. The exact age of the arrow is unknown; but, due to the construction of the war head, it was probably made during the second half of the Hundred Years War. Dr. Howard M. Nixon, Abbey Librarian, notes the head belogns to type 16 in the London Museum Catalogue:
"This is a typical medieval war head, with small barbs to prevent the arrow from being easily withdrawn. It seems likely that the wood is either ash or birch."

This type of war head was devised to negate the protection offered by the combination mail and plate armour, which came into wide use after the Battle of Poitiers (1356). (Froissart tells us that the archers of the Black Prince shot (broadhead) "bearded" arrows). The Chapter House Arrow is 30.5 inches long. The diameter of the shaft varies from 1.07 centimeters at the war head to a maximum of 1.14 centimeters at a distance of 30.5 centimeters from head. The diameter reduces to 0.756 centimeters at the nock. The total weight is 1.5 ounces.56 This arrow is a 27 inch shaft (approximately) mounted to a 4 inch or 5 inch socketed war head.
Somebody asked me to review this because it's a non-music copy-paste article far in excess of our one-scree limit for non-music copy-pasting. It is available elsewhere on the Internet (click here), but I think I'll let it stay because it is information that is very closely related to folklore.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM

A copyrighted article belonging to the Society of Archer-Antiquaries and first published in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, volume 23, 1980.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Clareling
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Rifles, pistols, machine guns, handy guns, dandy guns, bombs, longbows, shortbows, fatbows, skinnybows, bows-with-large-hips, kitchen knives, Bowie kives, pocket knives, boot knives, bricks, chairs, tables, falling pianos, kitchen appliances, jelly jars, large books, etc.
It dosent matter the 'instrument of death', murder can be commited with bare hands and is everyday. Guns or no guns, if tempers and situations are not handled correctly, the results can be deadly. Parents, employers, teachers, friends...paying attention to thoes around us could prevent some of this, not all, but some.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

And here is a link to the article - The Medieval English Longbow
by Robert E. Kaiser, M.A.


Much easier to read in the original - a link and a quote is a more satisfactory way of drawing an artivle to the notice of other people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Charming lad. Still no identification, still personal abuse. Oh well. Still, I'm amused to find you shooting yourself in the foot (I don't much care what with!).

"The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages..."

Exactly. Now since when has machine gun been "...being the equivalent of a personal firearm..."?

Your quote of Ed.III's Act is still grossly out of context, & not relevant to any modern discussion on gun ownership; your remark about crossbows still just as incorrect.

Moderately interesting article, though, thank you for that. I could take issue with some of it (though given that it was written before the Mary Rose was raised, this wouldn't be entirely fair on my part), but I don't think I'll waste my time arguing with *you* about it. Whoever you are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM

blue clicky, maybe????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM

Raedwulf, do some research on automatics will you please?

A type of crossbow used by the Chinese since at least 210 B.C. was a repeating design with a gravity-fed box magazine! The magazine was situated above the bolt track. When the lever at the rear of the crossbow was first raised and then lowered, the box moved forward, caught the string in a wooden recess and drew it to full cock, dropped a bolt into the track and released the string. These crossbows were neither powerful nor accurate, but they could launch a bolt every second or two until the magazine emptied. Poison was usually smeared on the points to increase their lethality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:42 PM

1252 AD - 'Assize of Arms' - those men owning land worth between 40-100 shillings were required to equip themselves with a sword, dagger, bow and arrows. Those owning less than 40 shillings worth of land had to equip themselves with bow and arrows. All men between the age of 15 to 60 years old were ordered to equip themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The Walrus
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:32 AM

"...A type of crossbow used by the Chinese since at least 210 B.C. was a repeating design with a gravity-fed box magazine!..."

There was a chap in Britain who built an automatic/semi-automatic heavy cross-bow (ballista?) based on Roman writings of 1st Century AD(no drawings, so a little speculative).
As I recall, this also has a box magazing but with a rotary cylinder feed for the bolt.
The weapon worked by cranking a handle forward to pick up the string then back to tension the string and loose the bolt ('fire the weapon' didn't seem quite right). When they demonstrated the weapon on TV (albeit with much reduced tension on the arms) they were getting a rate of about 12 rounds per min and very close grouping.

Regards

Walrus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM

interesting article about the longbow - although Id heard that it originated in Wales. Ie. Henry V's grandfather discovered it being used in there (My source Connections - James Burke)
and it was the weapon that decimated the French nobility in Crecy and Agincourt - plus the fact that the French Knights on horseback charged through marshy ground, getting stuck and making easy targets.

the other interesting tidbit - dont know whether its true, supposedly the UK two finger salute (reverse victory) comes from longbow references - ie. captured English longbowmen would have their index and middle fingers chopped off - rendering them useless for archery.
so often they would show their bow fingers to the French to show they still have them and to refer to Crecy & Agincourt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM

Just got around to reading a newspaper a few days old and saw that two young men were caught with stolen goods a few streets over from a home invasion here in Moncton, NB, Canada. Seems they couldn't break into the second victim's house, so they rang the doorbell. The cops were searching around the first victims' house, an ellderly couple, when a call came in from another elderly person about the doorbell ringing. Yeah, gun laws me arse. People, especially the elderly, aren't safe in their own homes anymore, BECAUSE of the new gun laws. I am not against gun laws, just against poorly thought out and poorly written gun laws.

Of course, I'm not referring to handguns or machine pistols or light machine guns. These have been restricted from public carry and to ownership by permit only since the thirties in Canada. And I support compulsory education and permits to own long guns. But the way these laws are written gives the criminals something they should never have... an edge over law abiding citizens. Imagine a law that punishes me more than a crook if the SOB breaks into my house and steals a gun and commits a crime with it.

If the laws were reasonable and logical there wouldn't be so many gun owners opposed to legislation. Unfortunately, the anti-gun crowd is neither reasonable or logical. I hope the NRA never gives up the fight and doesn't back down one inch... not one inch. We did here in Canada and now we have laws that create crime and treat law abiding citizens like criminals.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

Given their way, the NRA would have AK47s and submachine guns in ANY home that wanted them- and no records kept. Is that what you want?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

What's that story got to do with gnu laws anyway? I mean how would it have panned out better if one of those people had shot the fella ringing the doorbell?

Not to mention some other guy who might be ringing the doorbell because he was a Jehovah's Witness or a postman?

All the statistics I've seen seem to indicate that the most likely person to get shot by householders with guns are other members of their family and harmless visitors.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:51 PM

McGrath. The statistics you quote remind me of another quote. "there are liars, damned liars, and statisticians.
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/cowards.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

"Gnu laws"? We don't have gnu laws in Canada yet. It's an interesting thought, though...

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:08 PM

At what stage do we say that someone is not fit to possess a gun? Does the manic depressive have the right to a gun? Or the Schizophrenic? And to any gun? An AK47 perhaps?. At what stage of his illness would Charlton Heston have his gun licence revoked?

And sorry Walrus, but the analogy re cars is not appropiate. Very few people die because a car is deliberately driven AT them with the sole purpose of killing them. And also (given the chance) people will run out the way of a car. Do we ban planes because they crash? Or trains because they can be derailed? Or pavements because people trip on them and could die? Or computers because one blew up and caused a fire?

I understand the freedom issue in the US but I think that "the right to bear arms" really equates to "the right to take life" and I cannot support that.

Davebhoy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM

Ebbie... I "want" the NRA to hold out for reasonable and logical gun laws. AK's in the home is not logical, but if the alternative is creating crime and criminals through illogical and poorly written laws, pass me the 60 round clip.

McGrath... that SOB who rang the doorbell will probably be out in three months robbing elderly people again because our gun laws prohibit defense of life and property by the use of firearms... perhaps we could buy him a ticket to Harlow ?

Davebhoy... perhaps we could buy you a ticket to Harlow ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

Nice try, Guest, but:

"...the Crossbow became the assault rifle of its day (requiring less training to use than the Longbow)..."

You were directly comparing C/bows with L/bows. Going back to a BC Chinese weapon (& yes I did know vaguely about it, though I couldn't have given you a date) doesn't wash. You were talking about medieval times, not 200BC. Unless you know better, I certainly don't know of any medieval equivalent to this weapon!

Of course the 210BC crossbow is approximately analogous to an AK47, I'll concede that, but if you really were thinking about that weapon when you made the original quote that I picked you up on, you needed to have explained yourself a LOT better in the first place!

Incidentally, any idea what the evidence for poison on the bolts is? Only I'm inclined to think that excrement was perhaps more likely to have been used, being rather more readily available, & probably as effective (over the course of a few days). Nasty, but true...

As to the Assize of Arms, again, so what? You are again quoting an entirely military law that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on a modern debate about the accessibility of arms to ordinary people (i.e. civilians). If I can find time, I might do a more detailed explanation of this point, but I did say I was going to try not to get involved in yet another argument about guns! ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

Gnu

So long as it's not to where you are, as anyone asking for help is liable to become another statistic.

Harlow sounds good....

Davebhoy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:15 PM

These bastards who go round ringing doorbells are asking for it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

McGrath

I agree to an extent. Some have been known to ring twice so you think they're postmen but killing is a bit much. Perhaps we could threaten to deport them. Is St Kilda still uninhabited? Or just make them drink Watneys Starlight Bitter.....

Davebhoy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Anyone remember the foreign student who spoke little English? He was invited to a Halloween party, showed up in costume at the house of an elderly couple by mistake and was shot to death because he did not understand that he was being ordered off the property. The couple thought that they were being robbed.

A tragedy for both. But maybe if the husband had not had a gun, he would have shut the door and let the police sort it out.

I am not against the ownership of guns by people who can use them responsibly. If fear, age, illness, anger, etc. are going to cloud your judgement, you have no business owning one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

From what I've heard it wasn't ever the gun laws in either the UK or the US that have been the problem. It's the failure on the part of the responsible agencies to make sure they're properly enforced? In the UK, both Michael Ryan (Hungerford) & Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane) are prime examples...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:18 PM

For long periods of time, the English people were subject to numerous laws promoting the use of the longbow. There were often laws concerning the compulsory ownership of longbows for people in certain wage categories. Under the reign of King Henry II, everyone who earned 2-5 pounds per year had to be armed with bows (Assize of Arms, 1242 CE) (Wilkinson, pp.164). It was mandatory to practice in the bow on Sundays for many English citizens. Churches were required to maintain butts (targets) so that anyone could practice in the bow. There were even rules about the distance one must shoot at the butts from. Keep in mind that these laws were not intended for professional soldiers, for there were very few in those days. (Professional soldiers were mercenaries, not members of a standing army.) These laws were intended for the average citizen, who might be called upon at some point to fight for England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:30 PM

From Raedwulf:

"From what I've heard it wasn't ever the gun laws in either the UK or the US that have been the problem. It's the failure on the part of the responsible agencies to make sure they're properly enforced."

I do believe that when anyone is in a state of extreme emotion -- fear, panic, anger, whatever -- that no gun law is going to make a difference to what he/she does.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM

Raedwulf: I am sorry I dont know what poison the Chinese used; but from all accounts it was made from the sap of a tree and was deadly.
The use of bubonic plague bacteria, and gaseous gangrene pus, it caused slow death therefore was not very effective. Chinese knowledge of herbs and medecines was far more advanced. We do know the Romans used Taxol a substance derived from the sap and leaves of the Yew tree (Longbow wood LOL)to poison arrow heads; and just recently a doctor friend of mine was saying they were using Taxol in certain cancer treatments. History is wonderful isn't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:12 PM

Taxol is used in the treatment of breast cancer, from what I remember. In certain novels, I seem to recall, arrows were tipped with curare?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM

Out of curiosity, I unearthed the following tidbit. Numerous peoples far more primitive than the Chinese figured out poison and darts and arrows; it seemed the Chinese would have, too.

Baicao, literally, 'white grass' or 'white herb.' It is identified in CICA, p. 85, n. 89 as being either the common bittersweet or woody nightshade (Solanium dulcamara L.), or the creeper Ampelopsis serianaefolia, "identified by the Japanese as the sorrel vine." However, I can find no evidence that either of these plants has ever been used to make arrow poison, although the woody nightshade is, of course, poisonous.
       It seems far more likely that it refers to one of the several aconite species (also known in English as monkshood or wolfsbane) that are commonly found across Europe and Asia. They are known to have been used as arrow poisons right up until modern times amongst the Ainu in northern Japan, and the Minaro in Ladakh (Peissel, Michel, 1984: 99-100). They were also used as a poison in the region of Lake Issyk-kol in modern Kyrgyzstan (St. George, George, et al. 1974: 167, 170).
       The Chinese were quick to make use of their knowledge of arrow poison. We find in the Biography of Geng Gong in Chapter 49 of the Hou Han shu that in 75 CE:

"The Xiongnu then conquered and killed Ande, the king of the Further Tribe. Then they attacked the town of Qinpu (near Guchen). (Geng) Gong climbed onto the ramparts, and led his soldiers into battle. He coated his arrows with a poison, and spread the rumour among the Xiongnu that the Han had sacred arrows, and the wounds of those who were hit would certainly be extraordinary. Then he used powerful crossbows to shoot these arrows. The barbarians who were hit noticed that their wounds were all frothing up. They were very frightened then.
...
The baicao of the Hou Han shu must surely refer to one of the wild species of aconite which were used to prepare arrow poisons and are reported as being abundant in the mountains surrounding the Tarim Basin. The following Chinese account from the 17th century briefly describes how they were prepared:

"In making poison arrows for shooting wild beasts, the tubers of wild aconitum are boiled in water. The resulting liquid, being highly viscous and poisonous, is smeared on the sharp edges of arrowheads. These treated arrowheads are effective in the quick killing of both human beings and animals, even though the victim may shed only a trace of blood." Sung (1637), p. 267.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:11 AM

Petr: I think you've been had. The story that cutting off the fingers was used to prevent an Englishman from shooting, and that therefore displaying the fingers was an act of defiance, is as far as I know just an old joke. The continuation is that the act of shooting a longbow was referred to as "plucking yew," and that the English therefore customarily display these fingers while shouting "I can still pluck yew. PLUCK YEW!!!"

GUEST: The laws regarding archery practice in medieval England are irrelevant to the question of civilian ownership of military hardware in the US today for precisely the same reason that the second amendment is irrelevant: both were intended to create a civilian militia that the government could call upon to defend or attack in times of war. Both the fourteenth century English and the eighteenth century American governments needed armed men, because they did not have (or did not want to spend) the resources to arm their citizen soldiers themselves. This has changed today. Given the fact of our enormous military budgets funded by taxes, given that we have a large enough standing army and reserves to do battle for a good long time while we train new soldiers, and given that no US army unit would require a soldier to go into battle with his own weapons brought from home, these measures lose their relevance. We simply do not need people in every town to have guns on the wall in order to maintain a "well-organized militia" or mount a defense of the realm. Thus, with the exception of hunting rifles, why do we need guns? And most particularly, why do we need assault weapons? No frustrated cutting-and-pasting of treatises on the longbow will make the overall analogy any stronger.

Also, as a folklorist and oral historian, I'd like to add that it's simply not true to say "All knowledge comes from books letters and discussion not personal memories" In fact, all my knowledge comes from personal memories...though I concede that many of those memories are memories of having read books and participated in discussions. *bg* Seriously, though, even people who cannot read often have incredible and irreplaceable knowledge...

Oh, and please don't tell Raedwulf to Fuck Off, as that is simply rude. It's so much nicer to wish him a good time in his archery pursuits, thus: "Pluck yew, Raedwulf!" (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:40 AM

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

Sigmund Freud in "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:43 AM

Dear Nerd. You are wrong. Best Regards. Guest


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:03 AM

Interesting and nasty stuff: curare.

Well said, Nerd.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:14 PM

Golly! Various...

PDC - Yes, that's perfectly true. OTOH, if the laws were properly applied, they would likely weed out a lot of the emotionally unstable (such as Ryan & Hamilton, both of whom, AIUI, should have been prohibited from holding firearms). There's a world of difference between a crime of passion (sudden anger, sudden murder - be it with gun, kitchen knife, baseball bat, bare hands, etc), & premeditatedly going out to gun people down. Compare & contrast Dunblane & Hungerford with Wolverhampton? I think it was, where a nut ran amok in an infants school with a samurai sword. The teacher (Allison someone?) was badly injured protecting her pupils, but I don't remember that anyone died? It's much easier to kill indiscriminately with a gun, which is why they need to be controlled. It doesn't mean they need to be legislated out of civilian hands, which is an impossibility anyway.

Nerd - I may forgive you for that horrible pun(-ish)! Then again, it might be better for everyone if I just shot you... (with a bow & arrow, of course!) ;) The two fingers story has a couple of variants, but I believe it's approximately true. I'm sure your version isn't!

Guest - Yep, history IS wonderful! So's humanity - all those lessons to hand, on so many subjects, & we just never seem to learn... *sigh*

Nerd hit the nucleus of what I was driving at. Those acts were intended to ensure that there was an adequate body of men that the state could draw from at need. Neither the medieval statutes nor the second amendment, in my opinion, were intended to guarantee gun ownership to anyone who fancied one & claimed he wasn't a fruitcake! This is why I took particular care to draw the distinction between military & civil in my last post, which Nerd obviously picked up on.

It's pro-/anti- gun arguments that make me glad & relieved I'm English. Britain doesn't have a Constitution. No law here is written in stone. If a law is bad, or becomes obsolete, it can be changed or repealed. As an outsider, it's always struck me that the US Con. is not so much written in stone, as fossilized! You simply cannot suggest an alteration to any of the original clauses - it's (seemingly) a worse crime than desecrating a church or treason. Anyone know the last time one of the original amendments was modified? I know there've been a few added since the first draft, but I'm curious as to whether & when any of the first batch have been altered...

On the subject of poison (curare is S.American, I believe, kat), I wasn't suggesting that China didn't have knowledge, even extensive knowledge, of poisons, just that excrement is so much more... available... I'm also aware that Chinese medicine has been well developed for many centuries. Nevertheless, I reckon acute blood poisoning is something they'd have trouble dealing with! It's a fact that in Europe 50% of duels resulted in at least one fatality (I think I've remembered the quote correctly!), because the participants smeared the edges of their swords with shit. Not bubonic plague, gangrenous pus, or poison. Just common or garden regular-motions-per-day shit...

There are instances of victorious (i.e. killed opponent) duellists dying within a few days of winning, so I've been told. There is actually a wholly English fighting system, developed by an Elizabethan called George Silver, which has survived (thanks to the treatise he wrote, "Paradoxes of Defense") & has been revived in the modern world, based entirely on the concept of the no-score draw - the only way of being sure to survive a duel is to not be hit! It's no good running your enemy through the heart, if he kills you three days later... Nasty, but true! ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:37 PM

Amendment 27 was added in 1992, Raedwulf, which was the last addition. I think that last actual change of an earlier provision was in 1971, was Amendment 26 set the voting age at 18 for all states.

In 1972, the ERA passed congress but failed 3 states shy of ratification. I was reintroduced to Congress in 1982, but no progress has been made as far as I know.

Numerous changes were made to the Constitution in the 20th century. Changes are slow and difficult, but by now means is it a stagnant document.

http://memory.loc.gov/const/amend.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:29 PM

Nicole - Amdt 26 is not one of the originals. Looking at this page, the original Con. ran to 10 Amdts. Others have been added since. I specifically asked about amendments to the original clauses. It seems to me that the further we get from the the last alteration, the less willing Americans are to countenance any further modification....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:55 PM

Raedwulf,

I know it's not an "original" amendment (although there's really no such thing), but it is an amendment that affects an original provision, which said that the states controlled voting. It also, in a way, extended the 15th amendment, which said that states could not deny voting priviledges on the basis of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The US Constitution is changed by ADDING amendments. Items are never deleted, they are simply overruled by more recent additions. In some transcriptions, they line out obsolete provisions, but technically, they are still there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 01 May 03 - 08:58 PM

Tom Jefferson listed 3 reasons for the private citizen to keep (that is, to have on one's person or close at hand,) firearms. They were (1) to defend yourself and your loved ones (2) to hunt for food (3) to overthrow a tyrannical government. Those reasons appear obsolete if you really believe (1) the police will protect you from any crime, (2) Safeway will always provide food (3) the government of the U.S.A can never become dictatorial.
    (1) The police cannot protect the vast majority of private citizens and have no obligation or legal requirement to do so. They come around after the crime has been committed and try to find the perpetrator. Statistically, they do a poor job of even that. That's not the fault of the policeman, but the fact remains. I reserve the right to keep firearms for the same reasons the police have them, and the same type of firearms they have. (2) A few years ago, a rumor got started about a shortage of toilet paper in America. It wasn't true, but within 24 hours there was no toilet tissue to be had at any store in any metropolitan area in the U.S. Suppose there was a serious shortage of something like meat. I reserve the right, and the means, to provide food for myself and my family if necessary.(3) Read up on Richard NIxon. Then, of course, there's John Ashcroft and the new "anti-terrorist" laws. Please think about it before you answer.
    There is a vast difference between being a "subject" and being a "citizen." Do you really think only the police and the military should have guns?
    Would you be willing to post a sign in your front window right now that says "This house contains no firearms"? Why not?
    This is a discussion, not an argument. I'm really interested in your answers.

O'Meara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 01 May 03 - 09:31 PM

Raedwulf:

Even if you "weed out the emotionally unstable" etc., you are left with normal people, who, under the influence of certain stressors, can become emotionally unstable, even temporarily. If the weapon is at hand, and if it is as widely accepted as guns are in the US, then there will be tragedies, even following your "weeding out" idea.

Also, if you are a "normal," and have a gun in your house, does that mean that none of your emotionally unstable friends or family can visit?

The question isn't only ownership -- it's access.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Nerd
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:47 AM

O'Meara,

you have written a better defense of gun ownership than most. However, to answer some of your points:

(1) The toilet paper thing? I have lived in one of the top 5 metropolitan areas in the US my whole life and do not recall this incident at all. I have always had access to "the white stuff" and can't imagine this story is true. When did it happen?

(2) There are many reasons why the meat argument is fallacious. among them: You can live a long healthy life with no meat whatsoever. If you feel you must have meat because of your personal preferences, you don't actually need guns to hunt. People fed themselves meat for millions of years without guns, remember. If farmed meat disappeared and all Americans went out with their guns to hunt, we would denude the country of animals and quickly be back where we started; our pathologically large appetite for meat cannot be sustained by hunting. And finally, the types of guns used for hunting are not what most gun-control advocates object to, anyway. This is one of many ways in which the world has actually CHANGED since Thomas Jefferson wrote, rendering his slaveowning ass a bit less relevant to the modern world...

(3) Your old buddy "Tom" Jefferson lived in a different era in other ways too. We live in an age where the most effective weapons cost millions and millions of dollars, and as citizens ownership of individual firearms is no longer effective in preventing dictatorships. You can have all the assault rifles and automatic pistols you want, but if the government truly became a dictatorship they would run you over with a tank and take them from your cold, dead hands just as Mr. Heston likes to say.

(4) The erosion of civil liberties under Nixon and Ashcroft is scary, of course, but I'm not sure how having an arsenal of assault weapons would give me any more such liberties. Say I'm a law-abiding Muslim being subjected to unfair strip-searches in airports. Will walking around with an Uzi help me out in some way? It is only when mere anarchy is loosed upon the world that an arsenal will be of use. I personally would rather that there be no such arsenals than that there be many, even if I could have one of them.

(5) I'm interested that you say you want weapons for the same reason the police have them, which in your view is so that they can do a statistically poor job of pursuing criminals after they have committed crimes. I must say the logic of that escapes me.... Obviously you meant for a dfferent reason than the police have them. Care to elaborate?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:22 PM

(1) The T.P. thing happened in the mid 70s on the heels of "The Great Gasoline Shortage" with long lines at the pumps,etc. I lived in
Northern Virginia and worked in Washington, DC at the time. My point was suppose the system of food delivery most urban folks rely on was seriously disrupted.
    (2) (You evidently don't care for Mr Jefferson's owning slaves. Neither do I. But that doesn't make his ideas automatically wrong. BTW, in both the declaration of independence and the constitution itself, he attempted to prohibit slaverey.) I most definitely disagree with the notion that those framers of the constitution are irrelevant to the modern world. Good point about hunting for meat, though, definitely food for thought. (The pun is accidental.) Nevertheless, I still reserve the right and the tools to provide food for myself and my family.
    Every time a gun-control law is passed, the anti-gun people say "that's one more step." Toward what? In my experience, and according to their stated views, the "gun-control" advocates make no distinction between types of firearms, and their ultimate goal is the elimination of any sort of privately owned firearm, including BB guns and flintlock muskets.
    (3) (Tom Jefferson is not my "buddy." He was already a middle aged man when I was born.) The Afghanis did a pretty fair job of halting the Russians and all their high-tech war equipment for many years, and I have first-hand experience with the "primitive" Viet Cong facing the "modern" American army.
    (4)Its been said that given the choice, the vast majority of people would choose tyranny over anarchy. (As a law abiding Muslim, walking around an airport with an UZI would certainly speed up the strip search business.) The erosion of civil liberties is a creeping disease spread by those in power who wish to stay in power, be they liberal or conservative. The end result of that is a tyrannical, dictatorial government. But I expect that wouldn't happen here without a fight - that's what the 2nd ammendment is about.
    (5) The police have guns to protect themselves from the bad guys. Has nothing to do with rates of apprehension. Even though I don't go out of my way to mix with the bad guys, unlike the police, my reasoning is the same. I think there's a double standard there.
    How about my question of having only the police and the army armed?

O'Meara

ps is this getting too complicated for a mudcat thread?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:46 PM

Well, they might not have formally altered those first ten amendments, but the US Government seems to have no problems in driving a horse and cart through them. Especially these days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Nerd
Date: 02 May 03 - 03:45 PM

It might be too complicated for a Mudcat thread. But here are some more thoughts:

(1)

My point was suppose the system of food delivery most urban folks rely on was seriously disrupted.

If this were to happen, where would these urban folks hunt their food? Would they eat squirrels from Central Park? Breast of Rock Dove? One piece of Rat Tart without so much rat in it? Facetious, obviously, but the point is what I said before: guns would not really help the situation, as there is just not enough meat on the hoof in most regions of the country without the distribution system you speak of. If you wanted to help your country continue to eat meat, the necessary step would be to become a vegetarian for a while and put your efforts into repairing the distribution system, rather than into hunting for own table. Going out and hunting is ultimately an "I'll keep eating meat and f*ck the rest of you" response.

(2)

I didn't mean to suggest that Jefferson was entirely irrelevant because he was a slaveowner. I simply meant to show that the world has changed so much since then that it is pointless to quote one of the "founding fathers" on an issue of practicality such as "maintain weapons to shoot your food with." People in those days had no choice, but now we do.   

Every time a gun-control law is passed, the anti-gun people say "that's one more step."

And what does the Gun Lobby say? "Taking away my automatic handgun is a slippery slope toward outlawing BB guns! You don't want your kids deprived of BB guns, do you?" In fact you make this absurd claim yourself, when you say

In my experience, and according to their stated views, the "gun-control" advocates make no distinction between types of firearms, and their ultimate goal is the elimination of any sort of privately owned firearm, including BB guns and flintlock muskets.

Even if this were true, and rarely is such a thing uniformly true of a large group, this doesn't mean that you also must make no distinction between types of firearms. Why not give up automatic handguns but draw the line at your hunting rifle?

(3)

Both of your examples are of invading armies facing forces who were being supplied with weapons by world superpowers. They were not countries where everyone had his own guns prior to the outbreak of war, and who fought the war with those guns. As such, they don't support your premise, which was that each person having his own guns could be a decisive factor in fighting tyrannical governments.

(4)

The second amendment is not about individual Americans being protected from the American government. The entire text of the amendment is:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

In other words, it's about maintaining the state's power, not defying it. Unless you are part of a "well-regulated militia" working for the security of the state, the amendment is irrelevant to your guns!

(5)

There's some merit to the argument that guns serve to protect "good guys" from "bad guys." But in my experience, "bad guys" are not after me but my property. Would I kill someone to protect my property? No. So unless someone specifically decided to kill me, and to do it in such a way that I could stop them with a gun, having a gun will not protect me. I agree that I am gambling that no one will specifically decide to kill me in such a way that I could protect myself with a gun, just as I gamble that they will not try to shoot me with an assault rifle through my windows and thus do not install bulletproof glass, or gamble that they will not throw nerve gas into my house and thus do not own HAZMAT suits. I've survived this long, but who knows?

As to your question: I'd prefer if only the army and police were armed, yes. In the long run, our democracy survived McCarthy and it will survive a lot more civil-liberty eroding bozos. But it may not survive the racist kooks out there who have arsenals of assault weapons and believe the government is a "Zionist-occupied" state polluted by blacks and jews. So I think the guns out there on the ground are more likely to increase tyranny than reduce it. I do not suggest, by the way, that anyone here falls into this category, but such groups do exist!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 03 - 06:40 PM

The idea of keeping a gun in the home for self protection has always puzzled me. If I understand gun safety correctly, guns should be stored unloaded in a locked cabinet, and the ammunition should be kept in a separate locked cabinet. By the time the various componants are retrieved and assembled, the bad guy has had time to do his thing.

Speaking as a liberal, I have no problems with the shotguns my rural neighbors keep to hunt deer, turkeys, etc., and have been known to seek their help when the groundhogs got too numerous in my garden. My maternal grandmother was a crack shot, and kept a rifle for shooting the rattlesnakes that would hole up in her spring house and the armadillos that uprooted her camelia bushes.

Likewise, I have no problems with the sport of target shooting. My father belonged to a pistol club as a boy in England (pre WW2), and the gun was kept at the club.

I do draw the line, however, at private ownership of AK47's and other military grade weapons whose sole purpose is to kill large numbers of people as rapidly as possible, and I'm not too keen on concealed weapons. After all, if it's concealed its not much good as a deterrant; and it can cause an innocent victim to misread a bad guy...someone openly carrying a gun is more likely to be percieved as a threat.

When I was director of an inner city museum in New Jersey, several people tried to convince me to get a gun. I declined, partly because I haven't a clue how to use one properly and would be a danger to everyone, but mainly because I felt that by the time a gun would be the appropriate response to a situtation, the situation would be way out of hand. Far better to derail it before it gets to that point.

A case in point. I had been having problems with youths misbehaving in the men's room of the museum, but I did not want to lose authority by calling the police. My solution was to bring my dog to work. The first time I had a problem after the dog's arrival, we wandered back and suggested to the boys that this was not the place for their behavior. They looked at me, they looked at my dog sitting at heel. One of them said, "Oh, shit, a Rottweiler," and they left. I never had another problem in the men's room, and the boys who had been causing trouble became friends, with the same dog as my ambassador.

It has been well documented that robbers prefer to avoid houses with noisy and/or large dogs. And I would much rather have a dog help a robber decide to go elsewhere, while I called the police; than to have to remember where I put the keys to my guns and ammunition, remember how to load said gun, and confronted the baddy myself.

(And no, my Rottweiler was not protection/attacked trained, only obedience trained; and was fabulous with the schoolkids and senior citizens who visited the museum. His sucessor is a wiz at Agility, and has just passed the test to become a registered therapy dog.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 May 03 - 04:00 PM

*sigh* If ever we needed proof that Guests should be made to take a name (*any* name!), here it is! We have one Guest who calls himself 'liberal' & would appear to to fall into the camp that the media would call 'anti-gun' (I am by no means saying that this is an accurate definition!).

We have another Guest who is most definitely a gun advocate. You are not the same person?! Please, guys, give yourself some kind of nom-de-plume. It's rude not to, & makes life so much easier for the rest of us if you do... ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: KateG
Date: 03 May 03 - 05:45 PM

My apologies, to the 'Cat. I did not mean to be anonymous. I'm the liberal with the Rottweiler, and forgot that my cookie doesn't work on my office. Mea culpa.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 May 03 - 08:23 PM

Thank you, KateG, and... Would Guest care to follow suit & give himself a name?! I wouldn't buy his arguments with a farthing piece, but I'd be happy to wrangle endlessly with 'im if only 'e'd give me summat ter ley 'old of... ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:32 AM

I might hunt again when Moose have machine guns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:45 AM

DougR, if I'm not mistaken, a great many Moose in Alaska have guns, as do the Eagles and the Elks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,bob neighmond
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 07:55 PM

you are a neighmond so am i, from n.j. how about you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 27 September 4:40 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.