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BS: Vive La France

GUEST,JTT 30 May 03 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Arnie 19 May 03 - 11:17 AM
toadfrog 19 May 03 - 12:05 AM
CarolC 18 May 03 - 02:07 AM
GUEST 17 May 03 - 09:46 PM
GUEST 17 May 03 - 08:03 PM
CarolC 17 May 03 - 12:51 PM
DougR 17 May 03 - 01:29 AM
Susan from California 16 May 03 - 09:52 PM
GUEST 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM
katlaughing 16 May 03 - 11:58 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 16 May 03 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,The O'Meara 06 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,The O'Meara 06 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM
CarolC 05 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 05 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 05 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM
Teribus 05 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 04 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 04 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Laurent 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,johntm 02 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM
Doug_Remley 26 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM
*daylia* 26 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM
Doug_Remley 26 Feb 03 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Laurent 26 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 26 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM
Wolfgang 26 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM
katlaughing 25 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM
Don Firth 25 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM
Gareth 25 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM
Wolfgang 25 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
JohnnyBeezer 25 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 10:52 AM
Gareth 25 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM
Doug_Remley 25 Feb 03 - 03:14 AM
Boab 25 Feb 03 - 02:48 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 May 03 - 07:20 AM

Have I wandered into a racist site by mistake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:17 AM

Just been shopping over the Channel this week. The place was swarming with Brits buying up the wine, beer, fags etc.. Food is cheap, loads of variety in the supermarkets, even small cafes offer excellent fare at half the price of UK equivalent. I'm not the biggest fan of the French but they certainly know how to live 'la belle vie'..... I recommend Carrefour by the way!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:05 AM

Also worth mentioning: That was Major General Butler, and he gave that speech at a meeting of the American Legion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 02:07 AM

And which conflicts, we wonder, was Teddy R. trying to justify with that one?

I wonder if it could have been any of these described by Smedley Darlington Butler "one of the most decorated soldiers in the history of the Marine Corps and recipient of two Medals of Honor and the Distinguished Service Medal, (who) became unspeakably disillusioned with his accomplishments. His service record reads like an itinerary of all the "peacekeeping" and "humanitarian interventions" Wilson's enlightened and honourable foreign policy brought to a benighted world.

"After his retirement in 1931, Butler wrote, "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912...I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

"Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Smedley (scroll down near the bottom for the quote)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 09:46 PM

"My disagreement with the peace-at-any-price men, the ultrapacifists, is not in the least because they favor peace. I object to them, first, because they have proved themselves futile and impotent in working for peace, and second, because they commit what is not merely the capital error but the crime against morality of failing to uphold righteousness as the all-important end toward which we should strive ... I have as little sympathy for them as they have for the men who deify mere brutal force, who insist that power justifies wrongdoing, and who declare that there is no such thing as international morality. But the ultra- pacifists really play into the hands of these men. To condemn equally might which backs right and might which overthrows right is to render positive service to wrong-doers ... To denounce the nation that wages war in self-defense, or from a generous desire to relieve the oppressed, in the same terms in which we denounce war waged in a spirit of greed or wanton folly stands on a par with denouncing equally a murderer and the policeman who, at peril of his life and by force of arms, arrests the murderer. In each case the denunciation denotes not loftiness of soul but weakness both of mind and morals."
Theodore Roosevelt


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 08:03 PM

Mr. Rumsfeld has been conducting himself with distinction during this time of manifest media hostility. We were delighted by his Churchillian phrase, "Never have so many been so wrong about so much."
This business of sneering at the French because of Chirac may be compared to cursing Americans because of Clinton. It seems odd that two positions were coincident. To waste perfectly good wine on an irrelevant political position makes us look as childish as the French would like to see us - not that it matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 12:51 PM

So what do you suggest, Plumber? That the U. S. government stifle the Press? I don't think so.

Now there's a larf. Maybe they could unstifle the press. What a world of difference it could make if we had a free and open press in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: DougR
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:29 AM

So what do you suggest, Plumber? That the U. S. government stifle the Press? I don't think so.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Susan from California
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:52 PM

Here's a copy of a letter to the editor that my daughter (18 yrs old) wrote to our local paper:

I respect the French and Jaques Chirac. I realize that statement is considered by most Conservatives to be tantamount to treason, but as an American patriot, I have a profound respect for a country who tenaciously adheres to its beliefs. France's people were morally opposed to the way in which George Bush carried out his war, and as an elected official, Chirac would have been remiss in his duty to his electorate (like Prime Minister Aznar of Spain was) to support a war that could not even garner true support in the U.N.
    I have been in Europe since mid-February, and have daily been forced to explain to skeptical Europeans that not every American is pouring French wine in the streets (which one must purchase before disposing of, thus supporting French wine merchants), refusing to call food by its name (it was downright embarrassing to hear that Congress had renamed French Fries Freedom Fries, especially since they are not French at all anyway), and worst of all, making asinine jokes about French military cowardice (Lafayette was certainly no coward, was he?).
    Whether you like it or not, the U.S. is not the whole world, and it is ridiculous to, as Condi Rice reportedly put it, "...punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia." Why is France singled out that way? Because in Bush's America, no one who is small has the right to disagree with him. I hate to be the one to point it out, but that seems kind of Fascist to me. France, unlike Russia (with it's oil), has nothing Bush desires, and so in his Texas style of world diplomacy, juvenile retribution reigns supreme.   
    Every day I have tried to portray America in a better light than the majority of my fellow citizens, to be the best American I can be. I strive to represent my country the way it has always represented me. I have always been, and still am, deeply proud to be an American citizen, because the U.S. is a great place, with noble foundations and ideals.
    Whether you supported the war or not, don't engage in petty and juvenile nation-hating. I will not ask you to forgive the French, because feeling deeply for peace and standing up for your principles (Bush might call it sticking to your guns), is something to be admired for, not something in need of patronizing forgiveness. Instead, I ask you to do the character of our country justice, not by insulting and acting spiteful towards those who disagree with George Bush, but by understanding and embracing such dissidence. The United States of America was founded with debate, not by following power blindly in any direction. It is our responsibility to keep our eyes wide open. That's American.

                      Brittany

Pretty well written for a kid educated in our public schools :-) if I do say so myself.

It hasn't been in the paper yet, but she just emailed it last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM

For that accordion crack, Rumsfeld is going to
catch hell from the powerful accordion lobby.

La France avait raison -- vive la France!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:58 AM

So Plumber, dear, why continue with the xenophobia by calling them "cheesemonkeys?" Sends a kind of mixed message, ya know, if you meant for the rest of the posting to be a sort of vindication for the French?:-) Anyway, thanks for posting all of that. I'd read some in the news, but hadn't seen all of it. I find it quite interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:55 AM

The cheesemonkeys are fighting back against US allegations, including some insidious smears emanating from anonymous "sources" within the Bush régime, which has helped to feed the sort of xenophobia displayed on this and similar threads:

[quote]Paris has angrily denied articles alleging collusion with the fallen regime of Saddam Hussein, including a recent report in the Washington Times that it issued passports to fleeing Iraqi officials wanted by the U.S. (...)In Washington, a spokeswoman for the French Embassy said French Ambassador Jean-David Levitte had written a letter to the U.S. Congress and the Bush administration complaining about false news stories discrediting his country. (...) She said France was particularly upset about incorrect news reports of alleged French weapons sales to Iraq and the story saying French officials in Syria had issued French passports to Iraqis being sought by the U.S. military. "All of these stories were incorrect," she said. France has denied recent U.S. articles reporting that it possessed prohibited strains of the smallpox virus and that French companies sold Iraq spare aviation parts. Some of the articles cite U.S. intelligence sources.[unquote]

Here's the list so far of the big lies which the French Ambassador has reported in a letter to US Congressmen, Administration Officials and Media representatives:

[quote]1. September 1-15, 2002: In its "Week in Review" section, The New York Times published an article entitled "Psst… Can I Get a Bomb Trigger?" alleging that in 1998, France and Germany had supplied Iraq with high-precision switches used in detonating nuclear weapons.

The Embassy issued a denial, which was published the following week in that section's Letters to the Editor column, noting that a French company had indeed received an order for 120 switches, presented as "spare parts" for medical equipment but that the French authorities had immediately barred this sale and alerted both Germany and the country that had previously sold the equipment that incorporated the switches.

2. On November 5, 2002, the front page of The Washington Post carried a story entitled "Four Nations Thought to Possess Smallpox." According to this article, France, along with Russia, Iraq and North Korea, possesses prohibited human smallpox strains. This "information" was purportedly given to the Washington Post by an "American intelligence source," who mentioned the existence of a "report" on this subject.

At the Embassy's request, the Post subsequently published a rebuttal from the Embassy Press Office noting that France abides by WHO provisions and by its own national regulations prohibiting the possession of human smallpox strains.

3. On March 7, 2003, Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz asserted that two French companies had sold Iraq spare parts for airplanes and helicopters. The article referred to "a U.S. intelligence source."

On March 8, the two companies named in the story formally denied these allegations, as did the Embassy, which had already given a categorical reply to the question put to it by the reporter. On March 10, the Foreign Ministry deputy spokesperson reiterated the two companies' denial, adding that the French authorities had never authorized the export or re-export of such spare parts and strictly respected the arms embargo and Security Council resolutions. That denial was published, which did not prevent the Washington Times from regularly referring to this case.

4. On March 13, New York Times columnist William Safire began a series of articles entitled "The French Connection" in which he claimed that France had permitted the delivery of sensitive equipment to Iraq. According to him, a French intermediary had facilitated Iraq's acquisition, through Syria, of chemical components for long-range surface-to-surface missiles. Safire asserted in the same article that "he had been told" that the Société Nationale des Poudres et Explosifs had signed a contract in April 2002 to provide Iraq with five tons of dimethyl hydrazine, a chemical that can be used for missile propulsion.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman denied these allegations on March 14, noting that it had neither delivered nor authorized the delivery of such products, either directly or indirectly. In his interview with CNN/CBS, President Chirac expressed himself most clearly on this subject. Although he no longer mentioned the SNPE after that, Safire nevertheless continued his attacks in two successive columns. Moreover, The New York Times never published the Embassy's rebuttal to these charges nor took the trouble to answer the letter the French Ambassador personally sent them on this subject.

5. On April 2 on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough accused France of selling Iraq "planes, missiles, armored vehicles, radar equipment and spare parts for Iraqi fighter planes," and of offering to sell nuclear reactors, without mentioning specific dates.

Needless to say, France fully complies with the UN sanctions against Iraq, including a ban of all weapons sales.

6. On April 21, Newsweek reported the "possible" discovery of Roland 2 missiles by coalition forces in Iraq and implied that they had been manufactured in 2002. A charred Roland 3 missile launcher was also allegedly found.

Once again, the Ministry spokesman had to specify that France had sold no military equipment to Iraq since the summer of 1990 and that it was furthermore impossible for Roland 2s to have been manufactured in 2002, given the fact that they were not manufactured after 1993. This information had in fact been communicated to the author of the article, who made very limited use of it.

7. On May 6, The Washington Times once again attacked our country, indicating that according to an "anonymous American intelligence source," France had helped wanted Iraqi leaders to escape to Europe by providing them with French passports.

Although the author of that article did call the Embassy and included our denial in his article, he nevertheless referred to this supposed "scandal" three times in the following days. The fact that the Foreign Ministry's spokesman issued a categorical denial did not dissuade the Washington Times.

8. Recently, as reported again by the Washington Times, other "intelligence sources" accused France and Russia of seeking to sign oil contracts with Iraq just before the start of the war. A "military expert" asked by MSNBC about the coalition's failure to discover banned weapons insinuated that "weapons could well have been discovered" and that they "could very well be French or Russian," which would have led the administration not to mention them "out of concern for easing tensions."[unquote]

Sorry for the long post, but I had to save the above to disk before posting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

(Sorry 'bout that, the Devil made me hit the wrong button.)

There's nothing wrong with humor pointed at a particular group so long as its not malicious, and you say "Bless their hearts" Examples:

1. For 200 years, the Canadians (Bless their hearts,) have been exposed to American technology, French culture and British politics. In that time they have managed to assimilate British technology, French politics and American culture.

2. The British Isles contain four major cultures, (Bless their hearts,) : the Welsh, who pray on their knees (and their neighbors,) The Scots, who keep the Sabbath, (and anything else they can get their hands on,) the Irish, who don't know what they want (but will fight to the death to get it) and the English, who claim to be a self-made people, (thus relieving the Diety of a terrible guilt).

OK now, the trouble is figuring out who, exactly, was slighted and if it was malicious or not.

A generally reliable source, (Willie, the Scottish groundskeeper on The Simpsons,) Refers to the French as "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys!" So there you have it.

O'Meara


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM

(I have to point out that if what you are saying Vive about is plural, like Les Etats Unis, then so is "vivent" - as in, Vivent les Etats-Unis!)

At our latest anti-war rally, which was mostly silent but every once in a while somebody would sing something, I ran into some fellow francophones and we sang La Marseillaise (changing only Aux Armes to Pas d'Armes and Qu'un sang impur / Abreuve nos sillons to Qu'aucun sang pur / Abreuve aucun sillon) to honor their decision to stay out of this war... and a lot of people clapped and said Vive la France!

Meanwhile, everyone knows that the Belgians invented what we call French Fries, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM

hahahahaha...

(But as for who they're about, I think they're about both the nation as well as the ethnically French.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM

CarolC, the jokes are about the nation of France more than the ethnically French. Besides, everyone knows you need the accordion to flush the deer out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM

Sorry Teribus. I thought it was more dumb than funny. The accordion is a part of my everyday life, so the novelty factor isn't there for me. But that's not why I posted what I did. I posted it because I thought it was a good point. And I really was addressing the whole premise of this thread. Which, I might point out, would have been either deleted or highly criticized had the same kinds of jokes been posted about Blacks or Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM

"Classic Quote:

"Going to war without France is like going deer
hunting without your accordion." -- Donald Rumsfeld"



Aw! c'mon Carol - Y've got to admit it is funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Only a 'Jackeen' could be so tasteless, to which I say 'peti merd'

Now I would love to ask what has YOUR country ever done?

Shall we start with King Cormac Mc Twat who sold his kingdom for a bag of English horseshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

Also, it's pretty amusing to me that people make fun of the French because they like Jerry Lewis, considering that Jerry Lewis is a US American of (ethnically) Jewish ancestry, and his career was made here in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM

Forum Lurker, every country has produced really bad philosophers and artists. I don't, and never have, considered France the center of European culture, but I do believe that warfare is hardly the kind of criteria I want to use to determine the worth of any culture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

On the other hand, France has produced some really bad philosophers and artists in its time. It's often been considered the center of European culture, but not always with good reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion

Just sort of shows what kinds of people we're dealing with here. On the one hand, we have the Rumsfelds of the world who think that killing is the highest form of human expression, and who measure the worth of a culture on how good it is at fighting and being a bully.

On the other hand, we have people like ME who play the accordion and who are French (or part French, in my case) who think that there are innumerable other things besides killing that could be considered the highest form of humen expression, and who measure the worth of a culture on how good it is at just about everything else besides killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

Dear GUESTJohntm

You forgot to tell about the proud homo sapiens who reduced to slavery the coward french homo neanderthalensis.
Seriously, Gaul seems to have been created by Cesar and there's no real patriotic feeling before the 17th century and the French Revolution.
I don't think we can make anything go better this way, but I agree with you. Since Napoleon, who was technically born French, our soldiers were often led by bad officers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM

Just in from Dublin, an objective view of French history by a fellow Gael

THE COMPLETE MILITARY HISTORY OF FRANCE

-- Gallic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending
foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history,
France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

-- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by
female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The
First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are
victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

-- Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and
only country to ever lose two wars when fighting
Italians.

-- Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the
Huguenots.

-- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a
participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims
a tie on the basis that eventually the other
participants started ignoring her.

-- War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing
red flowerpots as chapeaux.

-- The Dutch War - Tied.

-- War of the Augsburg League/King William's
War/French and Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a
tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles
the world over to label the period as the height of
French military power.

-- War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also
gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough,
which they have loved every since.

-- American Revolution - In a move that will become
quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a
win even though the English colonists saw far more
action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome",
and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare;
"France
only wins when America does most of the fighting."

-- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact
that the opponent was also French.

-- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories
(remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a
Corsican, who ended up being no match for a Irish
footwear designer.

-- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. Germany first plays
the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home
alone on a Saturday night.

-- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing, France
is saved by the United States. Thousands of French
women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a
winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein."
Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces
forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

-- World War II - Lost. Conquered French liberated by
the United States and Britain just as they finish
learning the Horst Wessel Song.

-- War in Indochina - Lost. French forces plead
sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu.

-- Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first
defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force
since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of
Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This
rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians,
Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese
and Esquimaux.

-- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its
recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just
to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese
ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.


Classic Quote:

"Going to war without France is like going deer
hunting without your accordion." -- Donald Rumsfeld


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM

daylia -- that was a terrific link. Spent all afternoon there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM

For some French political humour, voila!

Click the 'next cartoons' too   :-)

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:10 PM

Shall we hope the title to Dylan's new song will not be Gott Mit Uns


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

I won't pretend French are better or worst than others. We have scholars and idiots, no more no less than everywhere else.

It really made me sick to vote for a crook to keep clear of fascism.

Every day, french television tells about anti-French feeling in the USA. It's probably a way of diverting common people from closing factories and welfare services breaking up.

Of course, Saddam is a dictator and I don't care if someone eliminate him. I only wonder why Mr Bush decided to stop the offensive, allowing Saddam to crush the Iraqi's uprising.

BTW, uranium shells killed more Desert Storm veterans after the war than Hussein'soldiers.

It's true that France likewise the USA and others don't care about dictators when they serves economical interests.

I'm not so innocent as to think that Mr G.W. Bush's only interest is human rights.

What I find really alarming in the idea of preventive war is that one US government could decide to bomb away aerospatiale's factory near Toulouse just because airbus is threatening Boeing's interest.

I fear Bob Dylan may add a verse to "with God on our side".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM

Not quite, McGrath. When the colonies were founded, they acknowledged English law. France never did. Closer to the way that Elizabeth II is the queen of America now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM

By English law he was king of France. The same way George III was king of the American colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM

Well, at least one Danish Pizza baker has not singled out France: Mister Aage Bjerre does not serve both French and Germans in retaliation for their countries' lack of support for the war.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM

Boab, something else you might find interesting: Corporate Warriors at Public Radio International; down the page a bit. One of the companies they talk about is based in Virginia. In Kosovo, one of their bigwigs videotaped himself while raping two women. That's just one of the atrocities most, if not all, which have not been charged or prosecuted and are still working and getting paid, indirectly, by our government.

The USA doesn't even know how many contractors it has in Iraq!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM

Methinks that then as now, there was not general agreement as to what all territory Hank The Fifth was the king of. Leave the longbows unstrung and the swords in their scabbards, guys. Any good encyclopedia should furnish the answer. I'd look it up, but my wife just called me to dinner.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM

Are you sure you're not an Englishman, Gareth?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

I was speaking figuratively. Suggesting that they might have had an effective revolution a bit earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

Burden of proof, Gareth. Show me when he was crowned King of France by the French authorities, according to French succession law. If Henry had to try to prove it, so do his supporters. Incidentally, why do you support the claim of a long-dead monarch to the throne of a country he never held?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM

Kevin - You should know better, the Guillotine was also known as the "Halifax" Gibbet - and was in use well prior to the French "Revolution".
Forum Lurker - are you suggesting that Henry V was not properly King of France, cite your information please, if you can.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

Maybe if Henry V had managed to actually get solidly on the French throne and be le Roi, the French would have invented the guillotine a few centuries earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM

Gareth, exactly how was France English territory? If I recall correctly, French and English succession law differed, and it was only by English law that Henry had any claim to the throne at all, much less the stronger one. Further, Henry had not been crowned the King of France by the ecclesiastical authorities of France, nor of England. In short, it wasn't his territory by law or by possession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM

Given that most people in most countries are agin Bush on this war, why is it that it's the French who have been targetted by this bizarre temper tantrum?

Now that's an easy one: Because JohnTm knew three jokes about the French and only one about Germans and none about Belgians. That's why. (grin)

On the serious side, it is intriguing that across Europe the percentage of those who say no to this war seems to be fairly independent of what the repective government's position is and the standing of the governments in their populations seems to be fairly independent of whether they are with the majority in their countries or not.

In Germany a large majority is against the war, likewise our government, but if there was an election next week the opposition who supports the war would win with a landslide. In France, a majority is against the war, same as the goverment and the present government would be reelected. In Spain a majority is against the war, the government is for it and it would loose an election by lengths. In Britain, a majority is against the war the government is for it and would win an election.

That either means that most Europeans, even if they have an opinion, do not care a lot about this war, at least much less than about, e.g., taxes and economy or that they do not take their governments' present positions for the last word.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

Given that most people in most countries are agin Bush on this war, why is it that it's the French who have been targetted by this bizarre temper tantrum?

Unlike the case in a fair number of countries, where people are just as hostile to the war policy, the French Government have, so far, fallen in line with the wishes of the French people, but that's what occasionally happens even in the best manipulated democracies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: JohnnyBeezer
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM

I hold no brief for the French but you're a bit off the beaten path here Gareth.
When Thomas Jefferson was over in Paris during the late 18 Century with his concubine slave Sally Hemmings, all the slaves knew that in France slavery was a no no (or non non si vous prefer) and that they could "Steal themselves" back from American slavemasters by just up and leaving with no threat of disapprobation from the French.
Fairly civilised n'est-ce-pas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM

Here's a clicky for your article, Boab:

Sunday Herald


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:52 AM

Interesting thoughts, wolfieVN, although I don't really know anything about French Officers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM

It is not an invasion to enter your own teritory.

Read your history chum.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:14 AM

Lurker, your point on moralist ethics is well taken concerning many regions, espeially where linked-cultures evolve in similar environments. I cannot imagine disagreement that a virtue/viscioua Ethos could be unhealthy for the world where virtue might demand attempts to visciously damage the greater-devil through available tools in a nuclear environment.

Global realities beg a rule-of-law. The O.N.U was a weak attempt, dis-empowered through compromise. Law was first and foremost an attempt to assure early infrastructure for trade and commerce, and, to insure accrued wealth for those in power. Even great religious works are "how to" guides for dealing with social questions, whether the-law-of-the-well applies or as rules for vengeance. Beowulf was ruled a murderer because he hid the body, not because he killed the person allowing the probability of vengeance. So maybe it's time not to hide the bodies but declare a rule-of-law. Not to be used as a petty sanction for economic colonialism and I don't think Bush even comes close to be trusted with such a call.

And I think French Officers are belligerent elitists from a socialist carnival. (just to keep the thread on track)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Boab
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:48 AM

Would all of the French-hating, self-congratulatory, my-country-right-or-wrong let's bash Iraq types--of whichever nationality---visit the Sunday Herald at www.sundayherald.com and find the piece by Neil Mackay, Home Affairs Editor, in the news section. Read it. And be humble. Or ashamed, if it hits you where it hurts. Hypocrisy is a common trait worldwide, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM

I'm glad you enjoyed my facetiousness, wolfieVN. I'm not sure I know what point or points you were trying to make in the rest of your post, though.


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