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BS: Vive La France

GUEST,JohnTm 23 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM
gnu 23 Feb 03 - 12:27 PM
Peter T. 23 Feb 03 - 12:34 PM
gnu 23 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
katlaughing 23 Feb 03 - 01:04 PM
Leadfingers 23 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 23 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM
Peter T. 23 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM
Ebbie 23 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM
alanabit 23 Feb 03 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,JohnTM 23 Feb 03 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Q 23 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM
okthen 23 Feb 03 - 02:44 PM
Leadfingers 23 Feb 03 - 03:06 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Feb 03 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Q 23 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM
Gareth 23 Feb 03 - 03:50 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
Gareth 23 Feb 03 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Q 23 Feb 03 - 04:08 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM
CarolC 23 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM
Gareth 23 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,JohnTm 23 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM
Peter T. 23 Feb 03 - 07:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM
Troll 23 Feb 03 - 09:51 PM
Troll 23 Feb 03 - 09:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,JohnTM 23 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM
Sorcha 23 Feb 03 - 11:33 PM
Peg 23 Feb 03 - 11:47 PM
CarolC 23 Feb 03 - 11:49 PM
CarolC 23 Feb 03 - 11:56 PM
Hrothgar 24 Feb 03 - 05:52 AM
Strupag 24 Feb 03 - 07:52 AM
Catarina 24 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM
Peg 24 Feb 03 - 10:29 AM
weepiper 24 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,graycolorscheme 24 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 03:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 04:00 PM
Don Firth 24 Feb 03 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Q 24 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 04:40 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,An Pluiéir Ceolmhar sa bhaile 24 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM
Gareth 24 Feb 03 - 07:45 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM
Gareth 24 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM
Doug_Remley 24 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM
Boab 25 Feb 03 - 02:48 AM
Doug_Remley 25 Feb 03 - 03:14 AM
Gareth 25 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 10:52 AM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM
JohnnyBeezer 25 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
Wolfgang 25 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM
Gareth 25 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM
Don Firth 25 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM
katlaughing 25 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM
Wolfgang 26 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 26 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Laurent 26 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM
Doug_Remley 26 Feb 03 - 01:10 PM
*daylia* 26 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM
Doug_Remley 26 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,johntm 02 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Laurent 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 04 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM
CarolC 04 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 04 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM
Teribus 05 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM
CarolC 05 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 05 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 05 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM
Mrrzy 05 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,The O'Meara 06 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,The O'Meara 06 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 16 May 03 - 09:55 AM
katlaughing 16 May 03 - 11:58 AM
GUEST 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM
Susan from California 16 May 03 - 09:52 PM
DougR 17 May 03 - 01:29 AM
CarolC 17 May 03 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 17 May 03 - 08:03 PM
GUEST 17 May 03 - 09:46 PM
CarolC 18 May 03 - 02:07 AM
toadfrog 19 May 03 - 12:05 AM
GUEST,Arnie 19 May 03 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,JTT 30 May 03 - 07:20 AM
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Subject: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JohnTm
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM

Why did the French plant trees on the Champs Elysee?
So the Germans could march in the shade

French army weapons for sale! Like New! Only Dropped Once!

How many French soldiers does it take to defend Paris?
Noone knows. It's never been tried


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM

God, but I sometimes really wish the French had won out over the English in North America. Vive les États Unis...


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: gnu
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:27 PM

You could always move to La Belle Province. They think the war is still on.


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:34 PM

If you knew anything about American history, you would know that if it weren't for the French there would be no United States of America, because the Americans would have lost the Revolution without massive French assistance. By the way, the French lost probably 500,000 men in the defence of Paris in 1914, you stupid cochon, and another 6 million over the next 4 years in defence of France.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: gnu
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM

You got that right Pete. They may have "lost" at times, but the French never lost anything with their backs turned. Anyone who thinks the French haven't got guts is just wrong.


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

Not to mention the siege of Paris in the Franco Prussian War, and the Paris Commune.

(Acrtually I can't imnagine that there'd have been any thought at all of an American Revolution among the English speaking colonists, if the French had won out in Canada. But there probably would have been a Francophone federation across much of the rest of North America, and the English colonies might even have joined in as junior partners eventually.)


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:04 PM

Always enjoy a thread title with my name in it. Thanks. And, esp. thanks to PeterT!

Kat LaFrance, or "that's de La France to some of you what's got no manners!" *bg*


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Subject: RE: Vive La France
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM

I am quite prepared to pop my head up over the parapet and suggest that a good old English tradition that seems to have been ignored for far too long is the tradition fo going over the channel mob handed and beating the crap out of the whole bloody country.With fond thoughts of Agincourt,Crecy,Waterloo and such.


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Subject: RE: John Tm iz a turd
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM

EOM


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

Not to mention the Norman Conquest. yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM

Have you noticed we always have to have a scapegoat, someone to blame? I think because most of us are uneasy these days some of us lash out at anyone/any country who attracts attention. We don't want to consider the possibility that they are right. France, Germany, ALL of Europe, know what war is, many remember the actual days and most lost members of their own families. I don't know how to explain Britain. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:47 PM

Leadfingers, allow me to correct your misconceptions about Agincourt.
Henry V took a marauding bunch over in the Spring and Summer 1415 - ostensibly to establish his claim to the French throne. (Incidentally, this claim was so risible that even Shakespeare derided it very funnily at the beginning of his hagiography "Henry V"). Henry and his hooligans had a good time besieging snaller towns like Harfleur and starving their citizens to death. When he heard that the French - not surprisingly - were taking exception to these activities and sending a large army to expedite his departure, what do you think he did? Did he rush to confront them, or march on Paris? The Hell he did, he bolted for Calais to get the next ferry home. Slowed down by exhaustion, lack of any more plundered supplies and dysentry, his army failed to cross the Seine in time. With woods behind him and a very large French army in front of him blocking his way to the Seine, he did the only thing he could do. He stayed where he was. It was now late October and the wrong end of the hooligan season. He prayed for the only two things which could save him. He needed rain (usually a fair bet for a Brit) and incredible stupidity on the side of the French. He got both.
In short, the French were provoked into attacking over a narrow area into thick mud into which the English had driven stakes. I am sure I do not need to explain why this was a bad idea for cavalry whose armour could be pierced at between two and three hundred metres by the longbows. So the French army was massacred on the day. And did Henrý then march on Paris?. You bet he didn't! It was all aboard the TGV for Calais and the next ferry home. When Henry landed, he bared his head and walked along in penance. He was dead two years later from dysentry.
In short, Agincourt was fought because the English had lost the campaign and were trying to run away and get back home. It was a brilliant opportunist military victory on the one hand. On the other hand, it was part of a nasty, unjust and sordid campaign which we lost. I don't think we Brits should feel so smug about it. Henry certainly did not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JohnTM
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:26 PM

Trouble with this site. Noone has a sense of humor


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

Without the French, the US would have been taken over again in the War of 1812. Napoleon kept the British busy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: okthen
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:44 PM

Who on earth taught them to play Rugby,and why weren't we content to stick to the 4 nations, it would have made things a lot easier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:06 PM

I did say I was poping my head up over the parapet alan.Sometimes I feel the urge to do a bit of stirring !!!
And thank you for the background information . Just goes to show the French are not as clever as they think they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:06 PM

Today's Rugby result: France 38: Scotland 3 Oh dear!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

Boycott French fries- go back to Chips!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:50 PM

Oi !! - Agincourt ?? Crecy ?? Sluys ?? Typical !!! English General leads Welsh troops into ambush. Welsh Longbows slaughter French.

With respect, the Normans were of Viking origin - hence Norse Men - they only had to deal with the Saxons, when William the Conk tried to march into South Wales the South Welsh murdered them at Machen in the Rhymney Valley, a battle written out of English history.

Machen Abbey was errected as a thanks gift to God for the succes of the combined Arms of Morganw and Senghenydd.

Gareth from Ystrad Mynach - an outpost and Grange of Machen.

Ps Didn't French Fries originate in Belguim ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Gareth: always good to see the Welsh side put forward!

But why do you say that "William the Conk tried to march into South Wales the South Welsh murdered them at Machen in the Rhymney Valley, a battle written out of English history."
Surely this was never a part of English history. We can't have it both ways!

Hwyl Fawr
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:05 PM

Oh I can, Oh I can, this was some time after 1066, about 1080 ish.

The English do not advert to Machen !!!! Where to quote the bard, "The River Rhymney ran red with forign blood" - sorry I cant find the Cymry text at the moment, but Idris Davies does a good translation. - I'll post this in good time.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:08 PM

Boycott Belgian chocolates as well! I think Bush has relegated the Belgians to the ranks of no-count nations along with Germany and France. No more strudel! Potatoes Duchesse! Bush could end up with 'possum and cornpone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM

Yo! GUEST,JohnTM! I have a sense of humor!

However.... One of my formerly favorite websites for off-the-wall humor, www.joecartoon.com, home of microwaved gerbils, frogs in blenders, jive-talkin' flies etc., is now marketing a "France Sucks" tee-shirt. Apparently, webmaster Joe has problems with the French refusal to lie down and let Mr. Bush drive an armored personnel carrier over them. I don't find the shirt to be funny at all. In fact, I am a bit curious as to why a guy who is trying to make his living off of a basically non-political humourous website would want to alienate some of his visitors by spouting his right-wing Francophobe politics in such a manner.

Bruce

(Whose French Protestant ancestors were chased across the Rhine into Germany by an angry mob of French Catholics many years ago.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM

Pretty ironic I guess, that the French are being accused of being spineless because they're standing up against the world's only superpower and not letting it push them around.

Ebbie, it's a (somewhat pathological) form of recreation for the English to bash the French. I know because I have to keep reminding people I know who were raised in British Commonwealth nations that I am part French.

(I'm also part English. And part Orange Irish, and part Green Irish, and part German, along with the French. I'm constantly fighting with myself ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM

Don't call me English !!!!!

Gareth *BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JohnTm
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

I was hoping some one would post some sort of joke.

Peter T. There would not have been a USA if we had not kicked the French out (with the help of our British allies :) )in the French and Indian Wars. Montcalm had the decency to die outside Quebec after turning savage onto the helpless women and children. If the French had won, we could have had the pleasure of living through the glorious French Revolution, The Terror and the wonders of Napoleon (whose tomb in Paris is a monument to bad taste).
The massive French assistance in our revolution (which had a postive result unlike the farce of 1789) was given because Comte de Vergennes wanted revenge against the English and to seize the West Indies.

The French lost so many killed and wounded in WWI because of the ineptitude of its generals and politicians. It lost the Franco Prussian War because Louis Napoleon was a fool and his generals were fools. France's record in WW11 was a disgrace. How many Frenchmen died serving in volunteer units that fought in Russia alongside their Nazi allies? More than died in France after June 6, 1944? But then everyone was a member of the Resistance. Ha. (The Bulgarians, whom Chirac threatens, at least had the decency not to turn over its Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. Would that La France, the land of Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, had been so gallant. Mais non, the French were too busy pocketing the paychecks of German soldiers.

French hypocrisy continued in Algiers when racism and brutality could not prevent the first defeat of a Western army by the Muslims since the Crusades. The less said about Dienbienphu the better. Not to mention the force de frappe.

Chirac would be in county jail on corruption charges in this country.

Somebody some send in a French joke. Aside from the latest pronouncement of French policy by those clowns in Paris. The rats that roar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:39 PM

Given that you haven't had the decency to admit that you were full of shit in your first slanderous post, it hardly makes any sense to get to work on this latest pile of merde, does it? yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

Making jokes about your friends is often funny. Making jokes about people who are in the room is sometimes brave. Making jokes about your derby rivals, who have to be your neighbours - French and English for example - is traditional.

But when big nations get their knickers in a twist because a relatively smaller country is refusing to roll over and play dead, that isn't particularly funny or impressive.

Chirac is a crook, true enough, like most presidents in most countries seem to be, including the ones who got selected rather than elected. But unlike in England, the French probably wouldn't put up with a guy at the top who totally ignored their overwhelming opposition to this war and cosied up to Bush, so he's doing what he's told by them.

It's a long time since the American Civil War. Most Americans just don't have a conception of what war on their own soil is like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Troll
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 09:51 PM

So sorry to disappoint all of you who praise the gallant Chirac for standing up to the big, bad bully but it ain't for the reason you'd like to think it is.
The sad truth of the matter is that La Belle France has been trading with Saddam for the past twelve years and has allowed Iraq to run up a multi-billion dollar debt. They also hold billions of dollars worth of oil contracts that a new regiem would probably not honor. Ditto the IOU"s. The situation with Russia is somewhat similar and the sale of advanced technology has been linkes with German companies.
Everyone says that Bush wants war because of the oil. Are you all so naive that you think that the US is the only nation who is interested?
Follow the money, people. Follow the money.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Troll
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 09:59 PM

I can't provide attirbution for the abovr because I read most of the information in an article in the Asahi Shimbun, an English language newspaper, in Tokyo last fall. I have absolutely no idea where to find it now.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

As I said, all Presidents tend to be crooks in both countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JohnTM
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM

Peter T
If you under idi f gavno you know what the Russians as they ran from Moscow


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:33 PM

They make some damn fine wines...........


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Peg
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:47 PM

I for one was thrilled to hear that Germany and France were willing to suggest that their automatic alliance with the USA could be called into question. If indeed it is over money, what of it? Seems to me they want to plan for the future, like all of us. Unlike Britain, France and germany see brighter days ahead. But if this war takes place, it's the beginning of the end.
Yes, that's simplistic.
C'est la vie, c'est plus simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:49 PM

You keep pointing fingers at France, troll. And you call it the truth. But you can provide no attribution for your assertions. Sounds more like a very desperate attempt to divert people's attention away from who the real bad actors are in this situation. If you can't provide any documentation that can be cross-checked, it's nothing more than rumor. Probably planted by people who have an axe to grind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:56 PM

One more point. The US has financial motives for wanting to wage war. troll maintains that France has financial motives for wanting to prevent a war.

Hmmm... Which one? Which one? Which position holds the higher ground? Which is the greater evil? Killing people for money, or not killing people for money. Gee, that's a tough one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:52 AM

At least the French won the great and glorious Battle of the Rainbow Warrior - the only naval success they have had in over 200 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Strupag
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:52 AM

What about the British then? No not out spineless "leaders", but the millions who took to the street on the 14th. Since they tend to be more repreasentive of public opinion, are we the people, yellow bellied and spineless just because we don't automatically swallow the Bush line?

Je ne croit pas!

Le tasse


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Catarina
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM

I dont't believe Napoleon can be held responsible for his tomb, he didn't draw the plans for it...
Generaly speaking, the french do tend to have a high opinion of themselves, but then again, so do the americans,and the english, and... The problem shouldn't be to find out who's the best, or the greatest or which country helped wich and when. Probably every country in Europe has already been at war with every other country in Europe at least once sometime in the past. We don't need to recall that. It's petty isn't it?
Since the subject is Vive La France, they do have wonderful poets and writers, great music, wonderfull food, great cheese and wine, beautiful cities and so on. Of course they made a few mistakes. Who didn't? If they don't agree with the US, so what? Is it compulsory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Peg
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:29 AM

The Rainbow Warrior was a Greenpeace ship; blown up by the French in a New Zealand harbor...

Hardly a battle...and it was a fuck-up, certainly. I tend to equate it with events at Kent State University, or the 1969 Democratic Convention...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: weepiper
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM

Well, I was in Paris visiting friends on the 15th and we went on the anti-war march, along with about a million (I'm not kidding) others. I'm with the French on this one. So 'degage, putain de con!' to the starter of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,graycolorscheme
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

For all who wish to see true French motives, it might be helpful to view www.stratfor.com , an independent intelligence corporation. Chirac and Hussein have been pals for upwards of 25 years. The Israelis destroyed a weapons grade nuclear reactor in Iraq in 1982... built by the French.
By the way, what is this "French for Peace" business? Whoever considers the current domestic state of affairs within Iraq as peaceful is a lunatic. Anyone holding a Bible (whether you believe or not) is executed on the spot. Saddam has a professional rapist on his payroll. He has murdered over 20,000 of his own (Kurdish) citizens with Cianide, mustard, and nerve agents.
    Not entering this war is a cop-out. I am willing to bet France would find itself hard-pressed to muster support for a war if it's OWN BORDERS were being attacked. Read Plato's Republic for examples and reasons why.
    By the way... EUROPE is divided on whether it should support a war in Iraq. France is outspoken, and germany attempts to back them in their shadow. When French support waivers German support fails (NATO Turkey situation). I don't even want to get into the belgians, wholost all repectability when they fled a scene of mass murder in Rwanda, letting 800,000 civilians be murdered.
    Oh, and another thing... We backed the French in the 1960's with their "Imperial troubles" in Vietnam. We ended up paying for 75% of their war fees and losses for them. They then, promptly (once again) put their tails between their legs and fled French Indochina... Thanks alot...


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:43 PM

Can you provide any documentation to support your assertions, GUEST,graycolorscheme?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:00 PM

Any of you shitstirring GUESTs (NB that doesn't mean that I'm implying that all GUESTS are shitstirrers) interested in music or songs?

Here's a link to a song in a current thread that is sort of relevant.

Basically in Dad's Army language, it strikes me "They don't like it up 'em..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:17 PM

If the French are all a bunch of wimps because they don't care to join in the pig-pile, it seems they have a lot of company.

Voici

Don Firth
(Some folks think that MacDonald's invented French fries. . . .)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM

Tariq Aziz, Iraq deputy prime minister and Iraq spokesman is a Christian. Religion is the last thing this particular war-to-come is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:40 PM

When you get down to it, religion is generally the last thing any wars are about, including so called "wars of religion".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM

Oh, and another thing... We backed the French in the 1960's with their "Imperial troubles" in Vietnam. We ended up paying for 75% of their war fees and losses for them. They then, promptly (once again) put their tails between their legs and fled French Indochina... Thanks alot...

This would perhaps be funny if it weren't so sad. Basically, what this says is that the US is much more effective at being an imperialist power than France. This is something to brag about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

Guest,graycolorscheme, you really need to look at your sources a lot harder before ranting. As Q pointed out, Saddam doesn't care about religion; Iraq is a secular state. That bit about the professional rapist was addressed on another thread. The booking form said "activity," meaning profession, but was misinterpreted as meaning the activity he was charged with. AS far as quoting Plato's Republic, there really isn't anything in there which is relevant to France. Plato didn't include a representative democracy in his list of governments, and his conclusions are incredibly elitist and restrictive of civil liberties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,An Pluiéir Ceolmhar sa bhaile
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:25 PM

GCS, there's also plenty of old footage of Bumsfeld cosying up to Saddam from years ago. And Saddam thought he had the OK from the US Ambassador to invade Kuweit. She would hardly have been so relaxed if she didn't think she was interpreting the political steer from above fairly accurately.

I wouldn't have much respect for Chirac, but the fact that he's a corrupt cynic doesn't make his position wrong on the war-lust of the Bushies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:45 PM

Interestingly there was a photo in the Sunday Telegraph of a younger Chirac publically greating Saddam Hussain, in the Sunday Observer there was a photograph of Chirac greeting Mugabe.

Nothing changes - and recall "Liberty, Egality etc." never applied to slaves, blacks etc.

I am afraid that to accuse the French of acting morally over anything is as much use a fitting an ashtray to a motorbike.

On and an historical foot note. Monmouth Hal (Henry V) died of dyusentry after being acknowledged King of England, and of France.

Yet another agreement and treaty the French broke.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM

Gareth-You disapprove of the French failing to acknowledge the sovereignty of an invader? I suppose that if your own country were invaded today, and the invaders' head of state rigged an election, you would praise your new "president?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM

And when was Hal V an invader ????

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM

I don't know, Gareth, maybe when he CROSSED THE ENGLISH CHANNEL AND ATTACKED SOVEREIGN FRENCH TERRITORY?!?!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

To "accuse the French" of anything is about as daft as "accusing the Welsh" or "the Jews". People don't fall inmto such neat packages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM

Carol C., I enjoyed your sarcasm concerning ethical "high ground" where choices must be made when Ethics specifically states "the lesser of two evils is still evil." The important word is "choices" and a rule of thumb in ethics is, "most probably the harder path to follow will be correct." Obviously, the world cannot be reduced to an equation with simple solutions. An example would be to study the history of Viêt Nam and, specifically, US involvement, out of local and international context. Warfare is not pleasant, but it is indeed, the last gasp of diplomacy. And, by the way, 75% of the world is not a nice place to live and most cultures are without any sense of equality. Without being insensative one often must read between the lines


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM

wolfieVN-Where, exactly do you get your definition of Ethics(sic)? It's fairly evident that we don't all use the same standards of ethics; it would be quite difficult to have the range of opinions that are shown on this forum if the only difference was perception of the facts. Consequentialist theories of ethics, fairly popular in many places and cultures, state that the least of all possible evils is indisinguishable from the greatest of all possible goods in a given situation. MAny absolute moralities don't differentiate between degrees of evil or good; an act is either virtuous or vicious, with no middle ground. I disagree with your statement that "most probably the harder path to follow will be the most correct." The harder path usually involves more suffering than the easier path in the short term, which many times outweighs any possible long-term gain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:12 PM

I'm glad you enjoyed my facetiousness, wolfieVN. I'm not sure I know what point or points you were trying to make in the rest of your post, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Boab
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:48 AM

Would all of the French-hating, self-congratulatory, my-country-right-or-wrong let's bash Iraq types--of whichever nationality---visit the Sunday Herald at www.sundayherald.com and find the piece by Neil Mackay, Home Affairs Editor, in the news section. Read it. And be humble. Or ashamed, if it hits you where it hurts. Hypocrisy is a common trait worldwide, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:14 AM

Lurker, your point on moralist ethics is well taken concerning many regions, espeially where linked-cultures evolve in similar environments. I cannot imagine disagreement that a virtue/viscioua Ethos could be unhealthy for the world where virtue might demand attempts to visciously damage the greater-devil through available tools in a nuclear environment.

Global realities beg a rule-of-law. The O.N.U was a weak attempt, dis-empowered through compromise. Law was first and foremost an attempt to assure early infrastructure for trade and commerce, and, to insure accrued wealth for those in power. Even great religious works are "how to" guides for dealing with social questions, whether the-law-of-the-well applies or as rules for vengeance. Beowulf was ruled a murderer because he hid the body, not because he killed the person allowing the probability of vengeance. So maybe it's time not to hide the bodies but declare a rule-of-law. Not to be used as a petty sanction for economic colonialism and I don't think Bush even comes close to be trusted with such a call.

And I think French Officers are belligerent elitists from a socialist carnival. (just to keep the thread on track)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM

It is not an invasion to enter your own teritory.

Read your history chum.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:52 AM

Interesting thoughts, wolfieVN, although I don't really know anything about French Officers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM

Here's a clicky for your article, Boab:

Sunday Herald


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: JohnnyBeezer
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM

I hold no brief for the French but you're a bit off the beaten path here Gareth.
When Thomas Jefferson was over in Paris during the late 18 Century with his concubine slave Sally Hemmings, all the slaves knew that in France slavery was a no no (or non non si vous prefer) and that they could "Steal themselves" back from American slavemasters by just up and leaving with no threat of disapprobation from the French.
Fairly civilised n'est-ce-pas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

Given that most people in most countries are agin Bush on this war, why is it that it's the French who have been targetted by this bizarre temper tantrum?

Unlike the case in a fair number of countries, where people are just as hostile to the war policy, the French Government have, so far, fallen in line with the wishes of the French people, but that's what occasionally happens even in the best manipulated democracies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM

Given that most people in most countries are agin Bush on this war, why is it that it's the French who have been targetted by this bizarre temper tantrum?

Now that's an easy one: Because JohnTm knew three jokes about the French and only one about Germans and none about Belgians. That's why. (grin)

On the serious side, it is intriguing that across Europe the percentage of those who say no to this war seems to be fairly independent of what the repective government's position is and the standing of the governments in their populations seems to be fairly independent of whether they are with the majority in their countries or not.

In Germany a large majority is against the war, likewise our government, but if there was an election next week the opposition who supports the war would win with a landslide. In France, a majority is against the war, same as the goverment and the present government would be reelected. In Spain a majority is against the war, the government is for it and it would loose an election by lengths. In Britain, a majority is against the war the government is for it and would win an election.

That either means that most Europeans, even if they have an opinion, do not care a lot about this war, at least much less than about, e.g., taxes and economy or that they do not take their governments' present positions for the last word.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM

Gareth, exactly how was France English territory? If I recall correctly, French and English succession law differed, and it was only by English law that Henry had any claim to the throne at all, much less the stronger one. Further, Henry had not been crowned the King of France by the ecclesiastical authorities of France, nor of England. In short, it wasn't his territory by law or by possession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

Maybe if Henry V had managed to actually get solidly on the French throne and be le Roi, the French would have invented the guillotine a few centuries earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM

Kevin - You should know better, the Guillotine was also known as the "Halifax" Gibbet - and was in use well prior to the French "Revolution".
Forum Lurker - are you suggesting that Henry V was not properly King of France, cite your information please, if you can.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

Burden of proof, Gareth. Show me when he was crowned King of France by the French authorities, according to French succession law. If Henry had to try to prove it, so do his supporters. Incidentally, why do you support the claim of a long-dead monarch to the throne of a country he never held?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

I was speaking figuratively. Suggesting that they might have had an effective revolution a bit earlier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM

Are you sure you're not an Englishman, Gareth?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:36 PM

Methinks that then as now, there was not general agreement as to what all territory Hank The Fifth was the king of. Leave the longbows unstrung and the swords in their scabbards, guys. Any good encyclopedia should furnish the answer. I'd look it up, but my wife just called me to dinner.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM

Boab, something else you might find interesting: Corporate Warriors at Public Radio International; down the page a bit. One of the companies they talk about is based in Virginia. In Kosovo, one of their bigwigs videotaped himself while raping two women. That's just one of the atrocities most, if not all, which have not been charged or prosecuted and are still working and getting paid, indirectly, by our government.

The USA doesn't even know how many contractors it has in Iraq!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM

Well, at least one Danish Pizza baker has not singled out France: Mister Aage Bjerre does not serve both French and Germans in retaliation for their countries' lack of support for the war.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM

By English law he was king of France. The same way George III was king of the American colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM

Not quite, McGrath. When the colonies were founded, they acknowledged English law. France never did. Closer to the way that Elizabeth II is the queen of America now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

I won't pretend French are better or worst than others. We have scholars and idiots, no more no less than everywhere else.

It really made me sick to vote for a crook to keep clear of fascism.

Every day, french television tells about anti-French feeling in the USA. It's probably a way of diverting common people from closing factories and welfare services breaking up.

Of course, Saddam is a dictator and I don't care if someone eliminate him. I only wonder why Mr Bush decided to stop the offensive, allowing Saddam to crush the Iraqi's uprising.

BTW, uranium shells killed more Desert Storm veterans after the war than Hussein'soldiers.

It's true that France likewise the USA and others don't care about dictators when they serves economical interests.

I'm not so innocent as to think that Mr G.W. Bush's only interest is human rights.

What I find really alarming in the idea of preventive war is that one US government could decide to bomb away aerospatiale's factory near Toulouse just because airbus is threatening Boeing's interest.

I fear Bob Dylan may add a verse to "with God on our side".


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:10 PM

Shall we hope the title to Dylan's new song will not be Gott Mit Uns


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM

For some French political humour, voila!

Click the 'next cartoons' too   :-)

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM

daylia -- that was a terrific link. Spent all afternoon there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM

Just in from Dublin, an objective view of French history by a fellow Gael

THE COMPLETE MILITARY HISTORY OF FRANCE

-- Gallic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending
foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history,
France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

-- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by
female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The
First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are
victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

-- Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and
only country to ever lose two wars when fighting
Italians.

-- Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the
Huguenots.

-- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a
participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims
a tie on the basis that eventually the other
participants started ignoring her.

-- War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing
red flowerpots as chapeaux.

-- The Dutch War - Tied.

-- War of the Augsburg League/King William's
War/French and Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a
tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles
the world over to label the period as the height of
French military power.

-- War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also
gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough,
which they have loved every since.

-- American Revolution - In a move that will become
quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a
win even though the English colonists saw far more
action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome",
and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare;
"France
only wins when America does most of the fighting."

-- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact
that the opponent was also French.

-- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories
(remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a
Corsican, who ended up being no match for a Irish
footwear designer.

-- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. Germany first plays
the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home
alone on a Saturday night.

-- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing, France
is saved by the United States. Thousands of French
women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a
winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein."
Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces
forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

-- World War II - Lost. Conquered French liberated by
the United States and Britain just as they finish
learning the Horst Wessel Song.

-- War in Indochina - Lost. French forces plead
sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu.

-- Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first
defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force
since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of
Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This
rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians,
Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese
and Esquimaux.

-- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its
recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just
to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese
ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.


Classic Quote:

"Going to war without France is like going deer
hunting without your accordion." -- Donald Rumsfeld


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

Dear GUESTJohntm

You forgot to tell about the proud homo sapiens who reduced to slavery the coward french homo neanderthalensis.
Seriously, Gaul seems to have been created by Cesar and there's no real patriotic feeling before the 17th century and the French Revolution.
I don't think we can make anything go better this way, but I agree with you. Since Napoleon, who was technically born French, our soldiers were often led by bad officers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion

Just sort of shows what kinds of people we're dealing with here. On the one hand, we have the Rumsfelds of the world who think that killing is the highest form of human expression, and who measure the worth of a culture on how good it is at fighting and being a bully.

On the other hand, we have people like ME who play the accordion and who are French (or part French, in my case) who think that there are innumerable other things besides killing that could be considered the highest form of humen expression, and who measure the worth of a culture on how good it is at just about everything else besides killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

On the other hand, France has produced some really bad philosophers and artists in its time. It's often been considered the center of European culture, but not always with good reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM

Forum Lurker, every country has produced really bad philosophers and artists. I don't, and never have, considered France the center of European culture, but I do believe that warfare is hardly the kind of criteria I want to use to determine the worth of any culture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

Also, it's pretty amusing to me that people make fun of the French because they like Jerry Lewis, considering that Jerry Lewis is a US American of (ethnically) Jewish ancestry, and his career was made here in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Only a 'Jackeen' could be so tasteless, to which I say 'peti merd'

Now I would love to ask what has YOUR country ever done?

Shall we start with King Cormac Mc Twat who sold his kingdom for a bag of English horseshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM

"Classic Quote:

"Going to war without France is like going deer
hunting without your accordion." -- Donald Rumsfeld"



Aw! c'mon Carol - Y've got to admit it is funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM

Sorry Teribus. I thought it was more dumb than funny. The accordion is a part of my everyday life, so the novelty factor isn't there for me. But that's not why I posted what I did. I posted it because I thought it was a good point. And I really was addressing the whole premise of this thread. Which, I might point out, would have been either deleted or highly criticized had the same kinds of jokes been posted about Blacks or Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM

CarolC, the jokes are about the nation of France more than the ethnically French. Besides, everyone knows you need the accordion to flush the deer out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM

hahahahaha...

(But as for who they're about, I think they're about both the nation as well as the ethnically French.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM

(I have to point out that if what you are saying Vive about is plural, like Les Etats Unis, then so is "vivent" - as in, Vivent les Etats-Unis!)

At our latest anti-war rally, which was mostly silent but every once in a while somebody would sing something, I ran into some fellow francophones and we sang La Marseillaise (changing only Aux Armes to Pas d'Armes and Qu'un sang impur / Abreuve nos sillons to Qu'aucun sang pur / Abreuve aucun sillon) to honor their decision to stay out of this war... and a lot of people clapped and said Vive la France!

Meanwhile, everyone knows that the Belgians invented what we call French Fries, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

(Sorry 'bout that, the Devil made me hit the wrong button.)

There's nothing wrong with humor pointed at a particular group so long as its not malicious, and you say "Bless their hearts" Examples:

1. For 200 years, the Canadians (Bless their hearts,) have been exposed to American technology, French culture and British politics. In that time they have managed to assimilate British technology, French politics and American culture.

2. The British Isles contain four major cultures, (Bless their hearts,) : the Welsh, who pray on their knees (and their neighbors,) The Scots, who keep the Sabbath, (and anything else they can get their hands on,) the Irish, who don't know what they want (but will fight to the death to get it) and the English, who claim to be a self-made people, (thus relieving the Diety of a terrible guilt).

OK now, the trouble is figuring out who, exactly, was slighted and if it was malicious or not.

A generally reliable source, (Willie, the Scottish groundskeeper on The Simpsons,) Refers to the French as "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys!" So there you have it.

O'Meara


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:55 AM

The cheesemonkeys are fighting back against US allegations, including some insidious smears emanating from anonymous "sources" within the Bush régime, which has helped to feed the sort of xenophobia displayed on this and similar threads:

[quote]Paris has angrily denied articles alleging collusion with the fallen regime of Saddam Hussein, including a recent report in the Washington Times that it issued passports to fleeing Iraqi officials wanted by the U.S. (...)In Washington, a spokeswoman for the French Embassy said French Ambassador Jean-David Levitte had written a letter to the U.S. Congress and the Bush administration complaining about false news stories discrediting his country. (...) She said France was particularly upset about incorrect news reports of alleged French weapons sales to Iraq and the story saying French officials in Syria had issued French passports to Iraqis being sought by the U.S. military. "All of these stories were incorrect," she said. France has denied recent U.S. articles reporting that it possessed prohibited strains of the smallpox virus and that French companies sold Iraq spare aviation parts. Some of the articles cite U.S. intelligence sources.[unquote]

Here's the list so far of the big lies which the French Ambassador has reported in a letter to US Congressmen, Administration Officials and Media representatives:

[quote]1. September 1-15, 2002: In its "Week in Review" section, The New York Times published an article entitled "Psst… Can I Get a Bomb Trigger?" alleging that in 1998, France and Germany had supplied Iraq with high-precision switches used in detonating nuclear weapons.

The Embassy issued a denial, which was published the following week in that section's Letters to the Editor column, noting that a French company had indeed received an order for 120 switches, presented as "spare parts" for medical equipment but that the French authorities had immediately barred this sale and alerted both Germany and the country that had previously sold the equipment that incorporated the switches.

2. On November 5, 2002, the front page of The Washington Post carried a story entitled "Four Nations Thought to Possess Smallpox." According to this article, France, along with Russia, Iraq and North Korea, possesses prohibited human smallpox strains. This "information" was purportedly given to the Washington Post by an "American intelligence source," who mentioned the existence of a "report" on this subject.

At the Embassy's request, the Post subsequently published a rebuttal from the Embassy Press Office noting that France abides by WHO provisions and by its own national regulations prohibiting the possession of human smallpox strains.

3. On March 7, 2003, Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz asserted that two French companies had sold Iraq spare parts for airplanes and helicopters. The article referred to "a U.S. intelligence source."

On March 8, the two companies named in the story formally denied these allegations, as did the Embassy, which had already given a categorical reply to the question put to it by the reporter. On March 10, the Foreign Ministry deputy spokesperson reiterated the two companies' denial, adding that the French authorities had never authorized the export or re-export of such spare parts and strictly respected the arms embargo and Security Council resolutions. That denial was published, which did not prevent the Washington Times from regularly referring to this case.

4. On March 13, New York Times columnist William Safire began a series of articles entitled "The French Connection" in which he claimed that France had permitted the delivery of sensitive equipment to Iraq. According to him, a French intermediary had facilitated Iraq's acquisition, through Syria, of chemical components for long-range surface-to-surface missiles. Safire asserted in the same article that "he had been told" that the Société Nationale des Poudres et Explosifs had signed a contract in April 2002 to provide Iraq with five tons of dimethyl hydrazine, a chemical that can be used for missile propulsion.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman denied these allegations on March 14, noting that it had neither delivered nor authorized the delivery of such products, either directly or indirectly. In his interview with CNN/CBS, President Chirac expressed himself most clearly on this subject. Although he no longer mentioned the SNPE after that, Safire nevertheless continued his attacks in two successive columns. Moreover, The New York Times never published the Embassy's rebuttal to these charges nor took the trouble to answer the letter the French Ambassador personally sent them on this subject.

5. On April 2 on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough accused France of selling Iraq "planes, missiles, armored vehicles, radar equipment and spare parts for Iraqi fighter planes," and of offering to sell nuclear reactors, without mentioning specific dates.

Needless to say, France fully complies with the UN sanctions against Iraq, including a ban of all weapons sales.

6. On April 21, Newsweek reported the "possible" discovery of Roland 2 missiles by coalition forces in Iraq and implied that they had been manufactured in 2002. A charred Roland 3 missile launcher was also allegedly found.

Once again, the Ministry spokesman had to specify that France had sold no military equipment to Iraq since the summer of 1990 and that it was furthermore impossible for Roland 2s to have been manufactured in 2002, given the fact that they were not manufactured after 1993. This information had in fact been communicated to the author of the article, who made very limited use of it.

7. On May 6, The Washington Times once again attacked our country, indicating that according to an "anonymous American intelligence source," France had helped wanted Iraqi leaders to escape to Europe by providing them with French passports.

Although the author of that article did call the Embassy and included our denial in his article, he nevertheless referred to this supposed "scandal" three times in the following days. The fact that the Foreign Ministry's spokesman issued a categorical denial did not dissuade the Washington Times.

8. Recently, as reported again by the Washington Times, other "intelligence sources" accused France and Russia of seeking to sign oil contracts with Iraq just before the start of the war. A "military expert" asked by MSNBC about the coalition's failure to discover banned weapons insinuated that "weapons could well have been discovered" and that they "could very well be French or Russian," which would have led the administration not to mention them "out of concern for easing tensions."[unquote]

Sorry for the long post, but I had to save the above to disk before posting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:58 AM

So Plumber, dear, why continue with the xenophobia by calling them "cheesemonkeys?" Sends a kind of mixed message, ya know, if you meant for the rest of the posting to be a sort of vindication for the French?:-) Anyway, thanks for posting all of that. I'd read some in the news, but hadn't seen all of it. I find it quite interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:48 PM

For that accordion crack, Rumsfeld is going to
catch hell from the powerful accordion lobby.

La France avait raison -- vive la France!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: Susan from California
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:52 PM

Here's a copy of a letter to the editor that my daughter (18 yrs old) wrote to our local paper:

I respect the French and Jaques Chirac. I realize that statement is considered by most Conservatives to be tantamount to treason, but as an American patriot, I have a profound respect for a country who tenaciously adheres to its beliefs. France's people were morally opposed to the way in which George Bush carried out his war, and as an elected official, Chirac would have been remiss in his duty to his electorate (like Prime Minister Aznar of Spain was) to support a war that could not even garner true support in the U.N.
    I have been in Europe since mid-February, and have daily been forced to explain to skeptical Europeans that not every American is pouring French wine in the streets (which one must purchase before disposing of, thus supporting French wine merchants), refusing to call food by its name (it was downright embarrassing to hear that Congress had renamed French Fries Freedom Fries, especially since they are not French at all anyway), and worst of all, making asinine jokes about French military cowardice (Lafayette was certainly no coward, was he?).
    Whether you like it or not, the U.S. is not the whole world, and it is ridiculous to, as Condi Rice reportedly put it, "...punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia." Why is France singled out that way? Because in Bush's America, no one who is small has the right to disagree with him. I hate to be the one to point it out, but that seems kind of Fascist to me. France, unlike Russia (with it's oil), has nothing Bush desires, and so in his Texas style of world diplomacy, juvenile retribution reigns supreme.   
    Every day I have tried to portray America in a better light than the majority of my fellow citizens, to be the best American I can be. I strive to represent my country the way it has always represented me. I have always been, and still am, deeply proud to be an American citizen, because the U.S. is a great place, with noble foundations and ideals.
    Whether you supported the war or not, don't engage in petty and juvenile nation-hating. I will not ask you to forgive the French, because feeling deeply for peace and standing up for your principles (Bush might call it sticking to your guns), is something to be admired for, not something in need of patronizing forgiveness. Instead, I ask you to do the character of our country justice, not by insulting and acting spiteful towards those who disagree with George Bush, but by understanding and embracing such dissidence. The United States of America was founded with debate, not by following power blindly in any direction. It is our responsibility to keep our eyes wide open. That's American.

                      Brittany

Pretty well written for a kid educated in our public schools :-) if I do say so myself.

It hasn't been in the paper yet, but she just emailed it last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: DougR
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:29 AM

So what do you suggest, Plumber? That the U. S. government stifle the Press? I don't think so.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 12:51 PM

So what do you suggest, Plumber? That the U. S. government stifle the Press? I don't think so.

Now there's a larf. Maybe they could unstifle the press. What a world of difference it could make if we had a free and open press in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 08:03 PM

Mr. Rumsfeld has been conducting himself with distinction during this time of manifest media hostility. We were delighted by his Churchillian phrase, "Never have so many been so wrong about so much."
This business of sneering at the French because of Chirac may be compared to cursing Americans because of Clinton. It seems odd that two positions were coincident. To waste perfectly good wine on an irrelevant political position makes us look as childish as the French would like to see us - not that it matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 09:46 PM

"My disagreement with the peace-at-any-price men, the ultrapacifists, is not in the least because they favor peace. I object to them, first, because they have proved themselves futile and impotent in working for peace, and second, because they commit what is not merely the capital error but the crime against morality of failing to uphold righteousness as the all-important end toward which we should strive ... I have as little sympathy for them as they have for the men who deify mere brutal force, who insist that power justifies wrongdoing, and who declare that there is no such thing as international morality. But the ultra- pacifists really play into the hands of these men. To condemn equally might which backs right and might which overthrows right is to render positive service to wrong-doers ... To denounce the nation that wages war in self-defense, or from a generous desire to relieve the oppressed, in the same terms in which we denounce war waged in a spirit of greed or wanton folly stands on a par with denouncing equally a murderer and the policeman who, at peril of his life and by force of arms, arrests the murderer. In each case the denunciation denotes not loftiness of soul but weakness both of mind and morals."
Theodore Roosevelt


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 02:07 AM

And which conflicts, we wonder, was Teddy R. trying to justify with that one?

I wonder if it could have been any of these described by Smedley Darlington Butler "one of the most decorated soldiers in the history of the Marine Corps and recipient of two Medals of Honor and the Distinguished Service Medal, (who) became unspeakably disillusioned with his accomplishments. His service record reads like an itinerary of all the "peacekeeping" and "humanitarian interventions" Wilson's enlightened and honourable foreign policy brought to a benighted world.

"After his retirement in 1931, Butler wrote, "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912...I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

"Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Smedley (scroll down near the bottom for the quote)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:05 AM

Also worth mentioning: That was Major General Butler, and he gave that speech at a meeting of the American Legion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:17 AM

Just been shopping over the Channel this week. The place was swarming with Brits buying up the wine, beer, fags etc.. Food is cheap, loads of variety in the supermarkets, even small cafes offer excellent fare at half the price of UK equivalent. I'm not the biggest fan of the French but they certainly know how to live 'la belle vie'..... I recommend Carrefour by the way!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vive La France
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 May 03 - 07:20 AM

Have I wandered into a racist site by mistake?


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