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BS: Millions Marching for Peace!

GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
KarlMarx 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM
KarlMarx 16 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM
Charley Noble 17 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM
brid widder 17 Feb 03 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM
Melani 17 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM
boglion 17 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 06:19 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 06:33 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM
NicoleC 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 17 Feb 03 - 09:24 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 09:34 PM
NicoleC 17 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 01:04 AM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Melani 18 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 04:32 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM
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Subject: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM

Isn't this just exciting? I'd like to hear people's comments on how it felt to be part of such a thrilling, historic, global event that held tremendous meaning for people everywhere in the world.

For me, a long time activist, it was more exhilirating than anything I've ever experienced before. As serious as the issues of war and peace are, there seemed to be a giddiness too. That no matter how the warmongers spin this, they ain't gonna be able to sell the war to us anymore.

The most heartening remarks I heard through the media (though they didn't know they were doing it, I'm sure) was that people weren't demonstrating only against this particular war. They were demonstrating so their feelings and thoughts would be known, ie that they were morally opposed to the use of war and militarism to further the interests of empire. Over and over again, especially from Europe, I heard people say they thought this war was about the Bush administration's efforts to use war to expand the US empire.

Thanks to all who marched for peace. I hope we can keep the momentum going!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

*please* read the lead story in today's Observer. A fine piece of writing.
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896511,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

It's ironic, though. A little less than a century ago, on the eve of another war, the crowds were out in force - in London, in Paris, in Vienna, in Berlin, in St. Petersburg - all clamoring for a showdown with the most dangerous enemy of their own respective governments. Each government - British, French, German, Austrian, and Russian - in turn, all whipped up the pro-war sentiments, until it became impossible to stem the rush to conflict. Four years later - with ten million dead - many of those same people, who had sent their sons, brothers and husbands off to kill and be killed, saw the foolishness of those heady days in July and August, 1914. Maybe people do learn the lessons of history . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

Thanks, other guest, for that link. Exactly what I was talking about.

Perhaps we are witnesses to the birth of a grassroots global democracy movement. People are very concerned that our voices are being heard just fine--and ignored by those in elected offices in the Western democracies.

"We have frequently printed the word DEMOCRACY. Yet I cannot too often repeat that it is a word the real gist of which still sleeps, quite unawaken'd, notwithstanding the resonance and the many angry tempests out of which its syllables have come, from pen or tongue. It is a great word, whose history, I suppose, remains unwritten, because that history has yet to be enacted."

                                     --Walt Whitman


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

I wouldn't be too enamored by democracy, though. I'm heartened by the anti-war demonstrations in Europe, Asia, Australia and North America, but as I stated before, the whims of the masses can change. Before September 11, 2001, Boy George, perceived to be number than a pounded thumb, was well on his way to becoming a one-termer like his old man. Afterwards, you would have thought he was the second-coming. Did he become smarter? No . . . But the American public became stupider . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM

Of course the whims of the masses change, just as the whims of political leaders do. However, that is no reason for the world's leaders to disregard widespread, global public opinion being simultaneously expressed by millions of people. The global demonstrations this weekend are historically unprecedented, and if I were a world leader, I would certainly be taking heed of this newfound ability of dissenters around the world to make their voices heard, despite the world's media conglomerates doing all in their power to either ignore or demonize them as terrorist sympathizers (or worse).

Please see my post here:

George Mitchell's remarks on global demonstrations


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM

Yes, but Boy George is ignoring the marchers, because he "knows" that Jesus is on his side, and that's all that counts, in his twisted little mind . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM

I think you are wrong, Gojira. I really do. I don't think the Bush administration is ignoring the global demonstrations, any more than I think the Bush administration is ignoring the world leaders who disagree with the US assessment of Saddam Hussein as a current military threat, particularly when they are having so many difficulties bringing the world community around to their position.

The EU, NATO, the Arab League, the UN Security Council--the Bush administration certainly cannot afford to ignore the opposing views of all of them. That would be disastrous for other items on the Bush/Cheney agenda, particularly cooperation of foreign governments on intelligence matters in the Bush administration's global war on terrorism, and in allowing the US military to use bases in the Middle East in countries like Kuwait, Bahrain, and Turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

Oh, really? Definition - Ignore: "To refuse to pay attention to; disregard." (American Heritage Dictionary) "Disregard" is the operative word. The only reason that the conventional war hasn't started already is because, even though the Pentagon says that they could invade Iraq today, they still have much more equipment en route, and some still on the docks here in the US, that will all eventually be deployed for the invasion, and more tellingly, for the occupation. The Pentagon says it would prefer to have all of its equipment and forces in place before launching the attack, so this delay caused by the flap in the UN actually works out for Boy George and his Pentagon handlers. Then there is the matter of the special forces that are already in Iraq, scouting the oil fields, and preparing to "paint targets" for the air campaign. Sorry, the anti-war demonstrators, unfortunately, are all urinating into the wind . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM

US and British military forces, including special forces, have been on the ground and in the air in Iraq for over 12 years now. This is not a new war we are talking about. This war against Iraq, which the US an UK administrations now wish to escalate by invading and occupying the country, has been on-going since the first Gulf War. Our forces occupying the northern and southern "no-fly zones", and the special forces, CIA, SAS, etc. that have been actively involved in Iraq since the early 1990s, have been the military presence that has kept Hussein in check.

Voicing dissenting opinions is never "pissing into the wind". In a democracy, it is known as participation in the public debate over policy issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

And from some of my old friends from Down Under:

"Our participation in Sydney's anti-war demonstration yesterday was the
first thing that has given me some hope. Over 250,000 people marched in Sydney including Jane, Tim, Hannah, me and Barbara. In some Australian cities 1 out of 10 people in the city marched. Of course, our Prime Minister rejected the whole thing not truly representing Australian public opinion, but it was clear that he was wrong. The full demographics were represented.

It is simply amazing to think that a global anti-war event took placebefore the war started. Barbara went down to the American consulate today to turn in some form that was required and found it closed.It is Presidents Day. What a wonderful present to give to Bush for President's Day, hell, I didn't know there was such a day.

The police were totally unprepared for the size of the crowd and Sydney does not have the space for it.The trains were not even running on some lines (down for repairs) so thousands likely did not make it into the city. The mood was excellent, there was no anti-American feelings expressed, only an irritation with the axis of evil (Bush, Blair, Howard).There were many funny and cleaver signs, I should have made a list."

March on,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM

When dealing with psychotic personalities (Kurt Vonnegut's term) like Boy George, you are wasting your time. This is all but one more reason why I became an anarchist many years ago. I find all of this talk of democracy to be every bit as tiresome as the prospect of autocratic solutions - and all other forms of government in between . . .
   And as far as the special forces having been there for two dozen years, so what? They have a new mission, now. All the marching in the world isn't going to change their mission, and what they're preparing to do . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM

How many people marched?

How does the number compare with the number of civilians killed by Saddam Hussein?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM

What's your point, Old Guy?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: brid widder
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:50 PM

I took part in the London march on Saturday.... along with millions more. I've never been on any sort of march before I was a demo virgin!!! I think every estimate is of how many took part is an underestimate!! We were on the Gower Street branch... the walk along Gower street itself took 2 hours ... before we reached the official start! we started at 12:30 & reached Hyde park at 6:00 ... well after all the speeches had finished there were many more after us.

I think you are probably right Go jira... we will probably not change the tide of events... but I needed to say it on saturday... along with millions more across the worrl... that this is NOT IN MY NAME!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM

And Brid, remember that those who marched aren't the only people who are opposed to this war. How many millions more around the world share the views and opinions being expressed in the global demonstrations in 600 cities over the weekend?

I think it is ridiculous to think that these demonstrations aren't going to have an effect in the halls of power around the globe. And not just on the issue of war against Iraq. The global left has shown that it can mobilize a concerted worldwide protest in a matter of weeks, thanks to the Internet. You better believe our marching is having an effect!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Melani
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

We were with 200,000 or so in San Francisco yesterday. My husband pointed out that the crowd equaled about one-third of the city's population, though of course many of them came from neighboring cities.The weather was great and so were the people, barring a few anarchist idiots who got violent and nasty at the end of the day. Even the police described it that way.

There was a sign at the interfaith service that said "The last time we listened to a bush, we wandered in the desert for 40 years," and later another that said "A village in Texas is missing its idiot." There were a lot of incredibly creative forms of protest, and the SF Chronicle described it as having the atmosphere of a gigantic block party.

The high point of my day was joining the San Francisco Islamic Society as an honorary member, so Ashcroft can put my name on a list too. The American Friends Service Committee was passing out honorary membership forms. If they're gonna mess with my civil liberties, I might as well mess with their heads. I am, by the way, not a Muslim.

Old Guy, I am quite sure nobody would miss Saddam for one minute, especially not me. If the UN decides to go after him in an allied effort, I will cheer them all the way to the front. But I am not in favor of Bush doing it unilaterally--it sets a really bad precedent. "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us? I'd love to get rid of Bush, too, but I really prefer to do that within the legal limits of our Constitution, not by having, say, North Korea drop a nuke on Washington. The UN is as close as we've got to a world government, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that we must take our neighbors on the planet into consideration. We are not isolated any more in this century; everything we do affects other nations.

The thing that concerns me most, as I have said before, is that Bush seems to be using the war as an excuse to totally decimate civil liberties and give the country to big business interests. If I'm not mistaken, the current provisions of the Homeland Security Act make it possible for me to be taken away for signing that membership form yesterday, though frankly, I don't expect that to happen. The object of the exercise, of course, is to show how absurd it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM

You know, brid widder, I'm not quite as cynical as I may appear - almost, but not quite. I used to belong to ACT-UP, and we frequently pilloried the powers-that-be over their inaction concerning the AIDS epidemic. The AIDS epidemic has only gotten worse, not better, though . . .      
   Don't get me wrong: as an anarchist, I'm certainly going to support people like yourself demonstrating against the same powers-that-be who wish to kill and destroy in our names, as you put it so well. But . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Melani:
"I am quite sure nobody would miss Saddam for one minute, especially not me. If the UN decides to go after him in an allied effort, I will cheer them all the way to the front. But I am not in favor of Bush doing it unilaterally--it sets a really bad precedent. "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us?"

A. The UN did decide to go after him but Saddam always manages to stall them. Now he is using the anti war protestors to his advantage.

B: There are several european nations in an alliance with the US and the UK. The dissenting nations are in the minority.

C: The Islamic extremists declared war on the US.

Now what do we do?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

"C: The Islamic extremists declared war on the US.

Now what do we do?"

Change our foreign policy. Work multilaterally and diplomatically to disarm all the nations of the world, including ourselves, by honoring the anti-WMD treaties we signed and under the Bush administration, have abrogated unilaterally.

God, there are so many things we could do...

The idea that Saddam is going to be successful in "using" the anti-war protestors is laughable. Only right wing Limbaugh and O'Reilly conspiracy nuts are buying that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:58 PM

The problem with atavistic right-wingers is that they think that anyone who hates the United States is "extremist." Obviously, no one should have any antipathy against this wonderful nation, a nation that has never met a right-wing regime that it didn't like . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM

No, the problem with atavistic right-wingers is that they successfully use the media to great effect with the working class people who buy labels, be it on blue jeans, or politics. And they have been very successful in demonizing and labelling anyone who disagrees with the ultra-right agenda, as extremists, terrorist sympathizers, or worse. What the mainstream US media is doing right now to poison the relationships between the US and Europe, just as one for instance, is treasonous and very much against the best interests of the US government and it's people.

It is the right wing Republicans in power right now who are the radical extremists, and their hate is what is wearing out the social fabric in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM

I can't argue with any of that, Guest! Well said . . . Except that, most right-wingers, including their titular head, have no idea what the term "atavistic" means . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM

Millions march for peace, hundreds of millions stay home.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM

Are you suggesting Richie, that getting six or so million people in the streets in a coordinated effort over a 48 hour period to make a statement on a single issue, is meaningless and pointless?

If so, why bother with democracy at all, if the attitude you think we all should embrace is a disempowered "who gives a shit"?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: boglion
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

The real test of world opinion would be a SECRET vote of the Security Council. This would avoid all the bullying and bribery.

And yes, I was in Gower Street and it took me five hours to reach Hyde Park. A gret day but nothing will stop the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

No Guest,

I was saying that there are equally as many people who have a different opinion. And they are largely being ignored.

These are free countries not like Iraq, where thank God we can express our opinions.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

Richie, the opinions of those who support this war is all we have been hearing for months on the US air waves.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

Guest:

"Change our foreign policy."

That sound constructive but what do we change it to?

"Work multilaterally and diplomatically to disarm all the nations of the world"

I did not see any other countries make an attempt but the US worked diplomatically with North Korea. We made a deal to give them aid if they would stop nuclear development. They used our aid while they were developing nuclear weapons and selling missiles to other countries in the Middle East. They could be selling nuclear weapons to terrorist groups or rogue nations in the near future if they have not already done so. A sterling example of how diplomacy does not work with dictators.

"including ourselves"

I would like to think that the superpowers in the world have some WMDs in case one of them decides to take control of one or more of the others. I would not like to see WMDs in the hands of smaller countries that would use them for blackmail. Who is going to destroy the last one? I don't think Utopia will ever exist.

"by honoring the anti-WMD treaties we signed and under the Bush administration, have abrogated unilaterally"
Inform us of these treaties, I am not aware of them, only the North Korean treaty, put forth by the US and violated by NK. This is another case of making America the villain when the situation is the reverse.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:19 PM

Guest,

I don't think you are hearing the opinions of the average guy in Smallville USA. What do they belive and why?

You are hearing about the protestors.

You are hearing what the Bush Adminstration is doing and saying.

There is a difference.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:33 PM

Gojira:

My point is that anti war protestors are busy totaling up how many people marched but they are not concerned with how many innocent people have died at the hands of dictators.

If a million marched and maybe there were a thousand deaths by dictatorships I would say the marchers have a point. If 10 million people have died under dictatorships and 1 million people marched I would say they were not concerned.

I would also like to see the total number of marchers compared to the world population.

Maybe of 1/4 of the world's population were able to march and be counted I would reconsider my conclusion that vast the majority of the world is not anti war.

Again I have answered your question but you are unable to answer mine.

Do you think the majority of the world is anti war?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

No Old Guy: It is not a case of being unable to answer your insipid questions, it's more of a matter of finding your positions - if that is what they can be called - to be irrelevant . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

Duest;

You ask questions and I answer them. I ask questions and you don't answer them.

Tell me what is relevant or is that question insipid? Give an example of a non insipid question. Maybe I can learn to ask better questions.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM

"I was saying that there are equally as many people who have a different opinion. And they are largely being ignored."

They are being ignored because the right wing can't organize themselves and get six million plus people in the streets to state their case. Why? Because they don't have to--they already control the government, the business sector, the media, and international relations.

Just as soon as you war mongerers get six million of your supporters around the world in the streets in a single weekend to further your cause, I'll be happy to listen to what you have to say. Until then, I'll ignore you.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM

Just out of curosity, can we see a show of hands of how many Americans believe Saddam's government is a fundamentalist one? That many, huh? Brrrrrttt! Wrong answer.

Okay, next question. Name the religious affiliations of the two other major political factions in Iraq that are candidates to control an post-Saddam Iraqi government? Anyone want to guess?

Old Guy, the exact number of marchers is not the exact number of dissenters. I couldn't make it, for example, though I wanted to. In US politics, the general rule of thumb for politicians is that one phone call opinion equals 100 votes. So how many votes does a person who gets in a car and drives a few hundred miles to stand in the freezing rain count for?

I think you will find that most of the longtime activists are far more aware of Saddam's history than those who march lockstep with the Bush administration. After all, we're the same activists who vigorously protested when the US was supplying him with biological and chemical weapons and propping up his government despite his crimes in the 80's. We were generally reviled for being "bleeding heart liberals" because we didn't support our ally Saddam and his war against then-number-one-enemy Iran. He was the US's darling right up until he overstepped his bounds and invaded Kuwait. Ironically, those same old US-aided crimes are now being trotted out as evidence against him.

I might ask where was this deep concern that Rumsfeld and Cheney have for the poor Kurds in the late 80's, when they were aiding and abetting Saddam? Where was the concern about Saddam's brutality to civilians from the right wing hawks then? Answer: it was nowhere to be found.

And it's not found now, either. Because there's no concern for civilian lives when the Pentagon war plan includes dropping 800 bombs in the first 48 hours, many over Baghdad. That's one every 4 minutes. Shall we run a pool for the average number of children killed with each bomb?

Slaughtering the populace is a damn poor way to "liberate" them.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:59 PM

You go girlfriend.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:24 PM

NicoleC:

Ok. Total up the number of marchers and multiply by 100 and compare that to the world population and tell me the ratio. I want to know.

Now tell me what kind of bombs are going to be dropped and where. If they are the wrong types of bombs and if they are going to be dropped in the wrong places I think it is wrong.

Now tell me how you would feel If you were brutally raped in front of your husband and children and then your children were tortured in front of you and your husband. If you lived through that, would you be willing to dodge some bombs that were aimed at the people who did the raping and torturing?

In Iraq, at the very least, they cut your tongue out if you say anything against the government. No trial, no report to file. Here you get airtime.

Where would you prefer to live?

I would rather live here in the US and I can even tolerate the antiwar protestors even though they can't tolerate those who think differently.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:34 PM

Old Guy, you are just trying to bait your opponents with this sensationalist crap. The issue of invading and occupying Iraq has nothing to do with liberating Iraqis or with protecting Iraqi women from being raped. What a crock of shit you are attempting to unload.

This war is, according to it's promoters, to prevent proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. That is what weapons inspections are about, that is what the UN resolutions going back to the Gulf War are about, and that makes your stupid "liberation and protection of Iraqi women" argument about as sincerely disingenuous as the suggestion that the US military invasion of Afghanistan was about liberating Afghan women from the Taliban.

And another thing--your god damn "America: love it or leave it" arguments are a load of shit, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

Old Guy, you're new around here so you don't know me or my posts. It is absolutely untrue to say of me -- or of most antiwar protestors -- that we don't "tolerate" those who think differently. I am always happy to discuss and debate political positions with those who speak from knowledge and have reasoned arguments. I don't, however, have much tolerance for those who parrot propaganda and rumor and call it fact, or those who simply hold to opinions without chasing down fact. Making claims like, "The Islamic extremists declared war on the US" is utterly irrelevant to any discussion of Iraq, since Iraq's government is a secular one.

And saying, "My point is that anti war protestors are busy totaling up how many people marched but they are not concerned with how many innocent people have died at the hands of dictators" is not only outrageously untrue, but it seems to show an ignorance of what many anti-war protesters have been fighting for for decades. Some of us have been paying attention all along, not just when the latest bonehead gets into the White House and tells us what to pay attention to.

And when some idiot gets on Fox News in prime time and calls a peaceful demonstration of first amendment rights "a bunch of damn communists," it's just another ignorant idiot as far as I'm concerned. As Kevin said so eloquently a couple of weeks ago, the attitude seems to be, "Be thankful you live in a country with free speech. Now shut up!"

Yes, I have been the victim of a heinous crime. The police even stood and watched it happen. No, I would not want those people bombed or tortured, whether I was there or not, because it would do nothing to make the crime go away. I would not choose to hurt them myself; I would definatley not choose to ask some to do so for me; but most of all I would be angered if someone else decided they were going to pursue "justice" by killing me and the criminals in question.

Replacing Saddam with a different but equally brutal dictator would not do anything to make the lives of Iraqi's better. Instead, in the meantime it will make it much worse. The Bush administration may talk all it wants to about how there will be a democracy afterwards, but the history of the US when we go on these sort of "liberation" missions tends to indicate that's we'll set up another dictatorship or else abandon the country to a long and bloody civil war -- and the demographics of Iraq virtually guarentee it.

Shall we "liberate" the Iraqi people while helping our ally Saudi Arabia, where the oppression under a fundamentalists government is much, much worse? The Taliban was our ally, too, up until almost two years ago, when they had the bad luck to have a misbehaving guest. Israel systematically engages in ethnic-based oppression, and we KNOW they have several sorts of WMD's and are also willing to engage in pre-emptive aggressive warfare. Are we "liberating" their neighbors because Israel might do it again?

You seem to be fond of asking others exaggerated questions. So tell me -- if Russia decided it was for our own good to remove President from power, and your children were hungry and dying of dysentary because all the water treatment plants were deliberately destroyed to "weaken" Bush's infrastructure, would you feel "liberated?" And if you are your wife were suffering from cancer because of the depleted uranium in the bombs they dropped that levelled your home, and even basic medication and painkillers were unavailable due to sanctions, would you welcome the Russian forces?

Would you really think they had your best interests at heart?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM

Guest:

I am not offended by your response. The statements about what goes on in Iraq I believe are true. The anti war protestors do not want to face the facts.

I like it here in America. I find very little to complain about. I can state my opinions openly. If you don't like the government here, vote to change it.
I fail to see what can be gained by hurling personal insults and using bad language.

I believe the women in Afghanistan have been liberated from the Taliban.

I saw a video tape on TV taken secretly of an execution in the Olympic soccer field in Kabul. A woman was accused of adultery. She was made to kneel down and she was shot in the head by one of those guys with the black turban.

I heard other televised reports of amputations of hands and feet in the same stadium. People accused of petty crimes had hands or feet chopped off in public. The amputated body parts were tossed into 55 gallon barrels and hauled away after it was all over.

Hard stuff to think about isn't it? Do you think the guys with one foot or one hand was happy to see an army coming to get rid of the Taliban? I would have been and I am glad I voted for George Bush.

By the way I voted for old man Bush before the first gulf war and after and I am glad I did. That war was well done with a minimum of civilian and military casualties, excerpt for the Iraqi army.

I am even glad about what Clinton did or allowed to be done in Serbia and Kosovo.

And Bosnia too. Good job. I can't remember if anybody protested these wars.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM

As some here have been at great pains to point out, many of the current crop of anti-war protestors were demonstrating in the streets of the US and Europe over US support to Saddam in the 1980s, just as we were demonstrating in the streets of the US and Europe against the Taliban regime, against the bloody Musharref regime, the bloody Somoza regime, the bloody Duvalier regimes, the bloody Marcos regime, etc etc etc, all around the world, for decades. You are a Limbaugh/O Reilly right wing johnny come lately, regurgitating everything you hear the right wing media pronounce as fact, with no basis in fact.

Don't you dare presume to lecture to peace and justice activists who have been fighting to end US support for (as former US ambassador to the UN Jeanne Kirkpatrick put it so bluntly) "our bloody bastards".


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM

Guest:

I did not realize I needed permission to post my point of view on this board. Whom do I ask for that permission?

I am stating facts that the anti war people do not want to think about. They don't have to read them if they don't want to.

History is full of mistakes like supporting Castro at one point. What was done to the slaves and the Indians. Allowing a dictator to take over Panama. Getting involved in a war with North Vietnam. We had a Civil war and the slaves were freed. Was that good or bad?

I think we need to get over the mistakes, admit them and go forward. There have been mistakes made by not taking action or not supporting someone when we should have. If we had fully supported the revolutionaries at the bay of pigs would Castro still be in power?

I like to think of the sucesses and learn from the failures so hopefully we do not repeat them.

I am not impressed by protestors. They are people unwilling to abide by the wishes of the majority.

If there was a cure found for cancer today, someone would be protesting it tomorrow. They cannot see the good in anything, only the bad.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:04 AM

NicoleC:

The statement I was responding to was "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us?"

My response was "The Islamic extremists declared war on the US." Isn't that what the Bin Ladin tapes are all about? Jihad against America? Maybe I heard wrong.

I thought the topic here was " MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!" All I am saying is that I don't think the millions marching do not account for the majority of the population. And that the demonstrators ignore the atrocities that will continue without action to depose the Saddam Hussein government.

If you were a victimized some how (by the way I am very sorry for anyone that has suffered from a heinous crime) and the police allowed it to happen, would you protest against someone who was trying to bring the Police department or Policemen involved to justice?

What are the totals anyway? I am curious. I like facts. It is good to know the facts. Some one stated 600 cities. You might come up with a large number if the total is multiplied by 100. And how many have died at the hand of dictators? I think Hitler was responsible for about 2 or 3 million. It a war to get rid of him.

As I stated elsewhere Saudi Arabia is being exposed a little at a time as not being such a good friend, And I said they are likely to become another Iraq if we do not act to plant a democracy there.

We were allies with the Mujahadeen, not the Taliban. The US government neglected that country and left it on it's own after the Russians lost interest, the Mujahadeen turned bad, the Taliban and UBL were hatched. All the more reason to get involved in nation building and stay involved.

If I was suffering from a brutal dictatorship and Russia or anybody wanted to depose that dictator, I would welcome them and do whatever I could to bring it about.

I don't recall any water treatment plants being targeted but As weird as it sounds, America alone buys 18 million dollars worth of oil a day from Iraq. (You may say that is BS but before you say it is a lie check it out.) If Saddam cared at all about his people he would build water treatment plants instead of more palaces to hide in, at least 50 at last count. If his people are dying from lack of sanitary water he would rather let them die so he can claim it is the fault of the US. The war protestors can fix on that as a reason to not have a war.

Interestingly enough, Our water supplies are a target of the Muslin extremists that have declared Jihad on the US

There was a food for oil program, hence the 18 mil a day oil sales, and I think that includes medicine, medical equipment anything necessary for the population. Saddam is diverting that money for military purposes and smuggling the war materiel in. Why can he get a million doses of atropine but he can't get basic medication and painkillers.

You have me on the depleted uranium. I will have to study that one. I am not going to try to comment on something I am not familiar with.

Yes I would think that anybody coming to liberate me from an oppressive regime would have my best interests at heart more so than the oppressor.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM

Old Guy, you are just playing the Bubba game of baiting the liberals and progressives. You aren't sincere, and you keep claiming that the liberals and progressives on this forum are trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion, which is utter bullshit.

But you are on now on my ignore list. Bye bye Bubba.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM

Be nice, guys. We are all entitled to different opinions (at least so far in this country) and we don't need to call each other names because of it.

Yes, Old Guy, I think most of the world is opposed to war, especially when it happens in their front yard. After all, what would you rather do, have a peaceful quiet life, or have your town and family blown up, shot, etc.? We are spoiled here, compared to some populations--we haven't had an actual big nasty war on our own soil since 1865. Sept. 11 took us all by surprise partly because we thought we were invulnerable.

It's obvious Saddam doesn't give a flying you-know-what for his people. He's a gangster who managed to take power by force and intimidation. It's also pretty clear that George Bush the First didn't care about them either. Leaflets were dropped encouraging the opposition to rise up at the end of the Gulf War, promising American support. They did, and if they'd had a little of that promised support, Saddam would be history now. But the Bush administration decided not to support them after all, and thousands were killed. 800,000 left the country. (I have given up trying to do links after my rousing lack of success, but the story was in the San Francisco Chronicle on Feb. 16.) Schwartzkopf had a clear road to Bagdad and could have finished the job then. So how come they didn't do it? Whatever the reason for that decision, you can bet it wasn't for the good of anybody but George Bush.

Saddam is probably just as much of a psycho as Hitler, and probably just as dangerous. But I still want to go after him with the agreement of the UN, not as American cowboys out to prove we can kick butt any time we want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM

Liberation by incineration. Good plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM

Besides the stereotype of a cowboy I see the stereotype of a peacenik.

I don't think we should use these stereotypes to describe anybody.

Are we either warmongers or peacemongers or cowboys?

I agree that it was a gigantic mistake when the '91 war was ended prematurely. Evidently the powers that were at the time thought there would be a revolution but it did not happen. Very similar to the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Ironically I think it was Powell that said that the mission was accomplished after they were 100 hours into the campaign. Now he has to try to finish the job.

Part of what we did was a success and taking Baghdad was not part of the original plan. I don't see why a missed opportunity should mean that we should take no action.

People in this thread and other threads keep saying millions of innocent people will be incinerated or otherwise killed. If you listen to the plans that the alliance has you will hear over and over again "in order to minimize civilian casualties we will. Etc Etc"

In Afghanistan we saw that measures were taken to avoid civilian casualties. There were some casualties, sure but if we don't do anything unless it is 100% safe and foolproof, we will never be able to do anything again. Every time an Airliner leaves the ground there is a possibility that it will crash and lives will be lost. Is that a reason to ground all airlines? The average number of deaths per mile is compared to the same number in auto accidents and we come to the conclusion that flying is many times safer than driving.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM

as much as I hate war, Im with old guy, on this one.
interesting that the other side resorts to name calling and insults.
people marched for peace in 91. If we had heeded them, Saddam would
still be in Kuwait, (and who knows where else, and who knows where the Kurds would be)

(I remember the arguments they made
that Saddam could have been forced out with sanctions)
(same sanctions people protested about later-
the children dying because of lack of medicine - while at the same
time Saddam orders 1000s of cases of Scotch, and builds palaces)

the only reason the inspectors were even allowed in- is the threat
of US force-

Its not up to the US to go and take out bastard dictators,
but the world has changed over the last few years, you have terrorists
who would use whatever weapons they could against the west.
and you have dictators with oil money financing their weapons building
and at some point - those paths will cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 04:32 PM

That stuff in Afghanistan hasn't stopped, just because there's a new sort of government. Not so much in Kabul, where there's a certain amount of attention being paid, but it's a fairly big country, and in much of it the same people are in control who were in control before.

Have there been any marches organised by people in support of the war policy? Anywhere? (That's a question - for all I know there have been.)


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

The people that support the war do not see the need to march. Do they have to march to counter the anti war marchers?

If you saw people marching for the rights of cockroaches would you have to rush out and march with signs saying down with cockroaches?

I do expect people to be touting insect's rights some day.

Old Guy


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