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How to End Racism

GUEST,Talal 02 Feb 03 - 04:12 AM
Mugwump 02 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM
stevetheORC 02 Feb 03 - 05:53 AM
Richie 02 Feb 03 - 07:49 AM
Amos 02 Feb 03 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Gern 02 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 02 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,God 02 Feb 03 - 01:48 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 02 Feb 03 - 01:51 PM
mooman 02 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,God 02 Feb 03 - 02:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM
Raedwulf 02 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,God 02 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM
Cobble 02 Feb 03 - 06:41 PM
Raedwulf 02 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM
stevetheORC 02 Feb 03 - 07:01 PM
mg 02 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 02 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM
Amos 02 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Cluin 02 Feb 03 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 02 Feb 03 - 10:35 PM
mack/misophist 03 Feb 03 - 12:59 AM
Little Hawk 03 Feb 03 - 01:24 AM
Hrothgar 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 AM
Cluin 03 Feb 03 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Geordie 03 Feb 03 - 08:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester 03 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM
Kim C 03 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM
Sam L 03 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 06:06 PM
Little Hawk 03 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM
robomatic 03 Feb 03 - 06:55 PM
Allan Dennehy 03 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM
Burke 03 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM
CraigS 03 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM
Cluin 03 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM
Frankham 03 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 03 Feb 03 - 10:34 PM
Bugsy 04 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 03 - 08:32 AM
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Subject: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Talal
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 04:12 AM

How to End Racism
            Recent events remind us that racism remains rampant. Yet we can easily end racism through understanding and education.

            People must realize that God created all humans from one couple, thus making the entire human race one large extended family. God says:" O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve); and from the two of them He spread abroad a multitude of men and women" (Qur'an 4:1).

            Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another. We appreciate a garden having many different flowers because we realize that each adds something to the beauty of the entire arrangement. This is why we do not object to the color of any flower. In a similar way we can see the world as a garden decorated with people of different colors. Let us appreciate that each variety of people contributes something to the spice of life in this world. God says:" O mankind! We have created you male and female , and have made you nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily, (start w/this word). The noblest of you in the sight of Allah*, is the most pious (righteous) of you" (Qur'an 49:13).

            The noblest are the most obedient to God. Such persons may belong to nay race or country. What really matters is their conduct and behavior. The prophet Mohammad* publicly declared that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, and one color is not superior to another. In a day when light-skinned people could not imagine a black person as their leader, the prophet appointed a black person Usaamah, the son of zaid, as a leader.

            As a result of following these teachings, many people have banished racism from their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. You will find people of various colors worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, kind or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special preference is given to anyone based on color or social status. The leader in a mosque is appointed for his learning in the religious sciences, regardless of skin color. There is no such concept as a 'black mosque' or 'white mosque'. Islam removes such destructive concepts.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Mugwump
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

What a load of tosh!!!


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: stevetheORC
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:53 AM

Kill Everyone

ORC'S know best


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:49 AM

If I remember correctly, wasn't this exact topic posted about two months ago. And if so why was it posted again?

-Richie


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:48 AM

Any approach to the problem that starts with "people must realize...." is a recipe for more racism, not less. Rest assured when I want to know the mind of God, I am sure as hell not going to try and trwal it out of an online forum.

A


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

Thanks, GUEST Talal, for a post obviously too thoughtful for some in this forum. Why some respondents lurk in the shadows with an eye toward discrediting sincerity is beyond me. Have recent events so embittered us that we look suspiciously on someone trying to discuss an end to racism? Or are we enjoying our cynicism and anger a little too much? Whether you wish to recognize it or not, the original post is quite accurate about the founding principles of Islam. That it has been so poorly executed in many Muslim countries is hardly the fault of its scripture. The founding principles of American democracy, so reverantly cited by so many, are equally indetectable on the streets today. Those who have responded to this apparently sincere declaration merely demonstrate how mean-spirited we have become, and how necessary it is for idealists to reach for something better.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM

As long as the idea of races exists, there will be racists. Some people will always associate "different" with "bad," and we would no longer be human if this were not true. Better, perhaps, but not human.

In order to eliminate racism, races will have to disappear. Since there are currently ways to distinguish between races based on physicaln appearance, this would need to go before the concept of races goes away. There are two ways to do this: Genocide, to eliminate all but one racial appearance, or blending to the point of conformity. While the first is clearly far worse than today's racism, the second would herald a lack of cultural diversity as well. Further, it would have to proceed to the point where no definable differences exist between people, or appearance categorization would continue. This is also not an acceptable solution, in my opinion.

The concept of eliminating racism through acceptance of a single religion's doctrine is actually rather frightening. Religious disputes have caused far more strife throughout world history than racism could even conceive of. Any belief which says "Everyone MUST accept others" is teetering on the brink of a long, ugly fall into hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:48 PM

I HEARD THAT AMOS!


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:51 PM

Yes, the teachings of Islam can inspire racial harmony. So can the teachings of Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism. It's not a matter of the teachings. It's a matter of the practice to which the teachings are put. The great irony inherent in these religions is that they can be used to inspire love, peace and brotherhood or hate, war and bigotry depending on who is doing the interpreting. Personally, I prefer the teachings that don't espouse a personalized supreme being. It's harder to think God is on your side if you don't claim to know what God is in the first place. As far as I know, there's never been a Buddhist or Taoist holy war.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Bee-dubya-ell,

You're right regarding Taoism and Buddhism and that's 2500+ years! And I agree with your premise too regarding the essence of the major theistic religions you mention.

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:00 PM

A rose by any other name would ... hmmm ... still have thorns!


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

There's fear of strangers, of outsiders who are different, and one name for that is xenophobia, and it probably goes way back, and is always liable to crop up again; but racism is something different.

It's racism when you get people living in the same place, speaking the same language and even with the same religion, and yet they see the colour of their neighbours skin as a significant kind of difference.

And that isn't something inbuilt or natural. It's a highly unatural distorted vision of humanity. And it's pretty recent in terms of human history, a few hundred yesars.

"Racism" has been developed in a few cultures, as an underpinning for slavery and colonial empires. It's even been given a pseudo-scientific rationale, which talks in terms of a few totally discrete "races", rather than in a continuous spectrum of numerous slight variations.

I think that it'll be possible to get rid of that distorted vision, and the racism, that springs from it, even if that doesn't mean there won't be antagonism when people with different ways of life rub up against each other.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM

"People must realize that God created all humans from one couple..."

Bollocks. I don't believe in your god, I don't believe in your version of creationism/evolution/genetics, either.

Where does that leave your entire argument? In La-la-land, that's where. Don't offer me your religion, I won't offer you mine. Don't moralise over me, I won't moralise over you...


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM

Oooo ... the children are fighting again ... sigh ...

YYYYYAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNN


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

Some people see an olive branch as something for hitting other people over the head with.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cobble
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:41 PM

Guest
These verses you quote come from the old testament, Written thousands of years before your Islam was ever thought of. Your lot came along 700 years after Christ died. GET A BOOK OR STORY OF YOUR OWN.

          A Pagan Cobble.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

OTOH, McG, some people can recognise a sharp pointy stick when it's being poked in their direction, & couldn't give a toss what tree it originally came off of... ;)

You know as well as I do that people that start their arguments in this fashion aren't, as a rule, on the side of unequivocal tolerance.

Whereas I'm on the side of unequivocal tolerance, regardless of colour, creed, or sporting affiliation, always allowing for the shooting of nutballs & Man U fans... ;) *g*


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: stevetheORC
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:01 PM

The only way to end racism is to end the human race, people will always be envious of what others have and will always want scapegoats for all their woes. The name raceism may be a fairly new thing but the underlying feelings have been there for a bloody long time.
I defy any one to say that they have never thought/felt or made a little racist comment/joke/observation at one time or another.
Most of us are just bloody good at controlling these emotions/feelings/thoughts etc.

Sorry about the rant but I hate you all equaly therfore I can not be a racist:-))


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

I thought it was an inoffensive post with some good things in it. No reason to attack his/her religion. I think, from a biological perspective, that racism does have biological roots, and it has to do with grandparents wanting descendants that look like them. Given that as a theory, it should be easy mathematically to see if the most racist behavior comes from those with the most recessive genes, who would lose their traits the easiest. mg


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM

No, it's not biological. People who have been adopted by parents of a different race, and have grown up among people who are of their adoptive parents' race, find that race, not their own, to be the standard. Many studies have shown that it's what you grow up with, not what you are born with, that determines your outlook as far as racial stereotyping. It does, however, come from xenophobia, which has biological roots. It's simply a matter of seeing that someone else is different from you, and distrusting that difference.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

Statistically, the amount of genetic material that is DIFFERENT among the races of homo sap is so minute as to be undetectable compared to the amount of material that is the same from race to race.

Biology by this reasoning does NOT account for racism. Why are those who invest so much energy rejecting differences, not spending as much or more celebrating similarities? (Not that it would be any more rational, but it would at least be better for the species as a whole).

A


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM

The ancient Romans were devoid of racism. A black man (moor, at any rate) was once emperor (briefly). That squelches that argument. Marco Polo reported that the Chinese weren't racist as long as you adopted their language and culture.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:47 PM

Yeah, yeah, we heard you last time. Islam has no racism. Right. Sure. Exact same post. Word for word.

You still haven't told us how to end sexism though.

Whatever... you obviously didn't read the follow-up posts then and you won't read them now.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:35 PM

Sexism is much harder, because there are definite differences between the sexes. Men can't get pregnant. This single factor has affected not only human society, but biology as well (the reason men don't breastfeed, tend towards greater muscle mass and lower fat, and age faster). The only way to eliminate sexism would be to eliminate the differences between the sexes. Seeing a pattern here?


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:59 AM

It pains me, but I must speak out for Islam. The first muezzin appointed by Mohammed was a Nigerian, presumably black. An Algerian I once know was white as paper. His darkest blood relative could be called purple.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 01:24 AM

There's only one way to end racism. End it in yourself.

That's how you end laziness too. I haven't done too well with that, I'm afraid. (sigh)

- LH


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Hrothgar
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 AM

Somebody said that the world will be happier when we are all the colour of tea.

I doubt it, though. Some fools will find some other difference as a basis for discrimination.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:20 AM

Ah, but what kind of tea? Oolong? Earl Grey? Green tea? Herbal?

The socio-political ramifications are legion. The mind boggles. The centre cannot hold. The gyres do gimble and wabe...


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:33 AM

We wpn't end racism until we end ingorance. The end of ignorance does not seem imminent.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:37 AM

What is strange is this idea that colour is a particularly significant difference, so that it overrides the more inportant similarities and the more important differences.

So you can get people abroad who see foreigners with a comnpletely different culture as being more similar to them than neighbours from their own home town, just because of skin pigment. That's what I mean by saying "racism" isn't same as xenophobia.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM

Racism = Prejudice + Power

There is only one race, the human race, hoever racism rolls around the aboive connection. Th Nazis persecuted all kinds of people, most of them were probably indistinguishable(?) from local germans.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM

the individual who started this thread...and the other one, is not interest in discussions...they are merely nailing leaflets to trees...making the rounds. This week it was our turn again...


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

Little Hawk is right.

I have problems with that laziness thing too...


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM

So what Bill D? What difference does it make who started a thread or why, once it's picked up some momentum of its own?


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

The only sure way te end racism is to abolish race. the same way that the only sure way to end crime is to make everything legal.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Sam L
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

I think most racism IS a kind of laziness. It can get all worked up and industrious, sure, but basically it's roots are laziness. It's easier to get a cartoon impression of a person, of one sort or another, than to try to see and know them. I also agree with that Orc up there--one doesn't have to have any racist ideas to be a racist, all they have to do is cop out, do the easier thing, not go a little out of their way. People with good intentions predictably cop-out when making decisions involving race.
   Same with sexism. When it gets down to the short strokes race and gender bias acts a lot like bias about people who aren't especially attractive, which is a real bias too. When are we all going to suddenly have more time and energy and interest in getting up everyday and being more thoughtful, alert, and intent on being fair, in making friends, extending trust, in all ways, in everything we do. Sometimes we're too tired, too afraid, too busy. I think it's not very easy to do, and it doesn't get done by "just" doing or thinking any one particular thing, especially not patting oneself on the back for having ideals.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:06 PM

It shouldn't be too hard in principle to abolish "race" because it doesn't really exist in the sense that it's been sold to us, with the idea being that humanity is made up of a fairly small bunch of "races". It's just not true.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM

True, McGrath. We are one human race, period.

There's some interesting stuff in the movie "Gangs of New York" about racism...mostly aimed at the Irish immigrants, and also at the blacks in 1800's New York City (and elsewhere).

- LH


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:55 PM

Isn't there slavery currently practised in the Sudan to this day which is under nominal Islamic rule?


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM

We have a lot of racisism in Denmark. Maybe its got something to do with the fact that 70 per cent of our rapes and a huge proportion of our crime is committed by foreigners and their children. Or when our annual gay pride parade gets attacked with bricks and bottles by fundamentalistic morons who should never have been allowed to move here in the first place.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Burke
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

A monthly post, apparently.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

Slavery, horrible as it always is, normally has little to do with "race". Slaves in Roman times, for example would have come in all colours, and so would slaveowners, and that would have been true in most societies where slavery has existed, or where it continues.

The peculiar feature of slavery as it was invented in the wake of the European seizure of America, and more especially in the territory of the United States, was that slavery became totally tied in with notions about colour and "race".


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

" What difference does it make who started a thread or why?".....well, like Burke says.....

*shrug*...I have no objection to a serious discussion of racism, I just get tired of mindless repetition, like those holding up those signs at sporting events with a bible verse noted.

Must be the curmudgeon in me....

(I have several pet issues, myself....population control, for example...and traffic problems...and immigration policies.....shall I do a monthly 'leafleting' here? )

I try to bring up my issues in a context, not just gratuitous posting because I can.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CraigS
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

There is a way to abolish racism, which is to abolish all groups which practice clannish behaviour, right up to the nation level. It won't work - it leads to secret societies. Where is the healthy balance? It is not in Islam, because Islam is intended as a way of life, and includes a legal system intended for 1200 years ago. Who in his right mind would sanction cutting pieces off people and stoning them to death? The only people I can think of are the Son of a Bush and the mad Islamists! maybe that's why they can't see each other's point of view!


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

But what if the "clannish behaviour" is an inherent part of their "culture"?


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM

Dick,

The only sure way to end racism is to abolish race. the same way that the only sure way to end crime is to make everything legal."

Funny :) Does this mean if we abolish religion, we can make people holy? :)

I think I go with McGrath on this one. Race is a concept created by anthropologists. Caucasion, Negroid, Mongoloid etc. and I would assume that it has a useful scientific application. "Racism" however is a different thing altogether.

"Racism" may have more to do with cultural bias than race itself.

One great healer is music. It can bring people together. (Unless it's some musicians on a gig fighting about what chords to use or who is keeping time. :)) One of the reasons I got into folk music to begin with is it's social healing power...by this I mean bringing people together from different cultures. Of course there is a tendency in some folks with certain musical interests to exclude others. Even so, in my experience when musicians from different cultures get together, or people who share songs from different places congregate, the walls generally come down. Music is pretty much something that everyone can understand to some degree regardless of where it comes from. Even when we make arbitrary names up for it such as "traditional" or "folk" or "commercial" or "pop" etc.

I think if we dig deep enough in all of us, there might be elements of "racism" that we haven't learned to come to terms with. They might even be on an unconscious level. But regardless, there's something about the power of music that transcends this in my humble opinion. It highlights the fact that we're all human and are basically social animals (otherwise we would have been extinct long ago.)

This is one of the reasons that I think folk music is so important.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM

Frankham-
No, but abolishing religion would get rid of Crusades and Jihads.

If racism disappeared, there'd still be prejudice against foreigners, or banjo players, or short people or whatever. People are always looking for someone else to blame.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:34 PM

We are all basically social animals, ON A SMALL SCALE. Once you start looking at people you don't know, humans by nature start becoming xenophobic. Racism is the most convenient way to differentiate people, because a "black" looks different than a "white" or a "Hispanic." The concept of races, outside ethnography and anthropology, is just a fiction useful for making categories. If we eliminate the idea of races, we might start using nationalities again, or political ideologies. People will discriminate, and there isn't much that can be done about it.


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM

Indescriminate Shagging. That should fix it in about 5 generations. Plus it will bring us all a lot closer.


Cheers


Bugsy


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Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:32 AM

I would assume that it has a useful scientific application

I would question that very much, and I think most modern anthropologists would as well. People vary, but not in great quantum leaps like that - they are artifacts created by vastly increased access from one part of the world to another, and by artificial mass movements of population, such as the slave trade and the American migration.

If you walked from Kerry to Capetown or Vladivostock (with the odd boat ride on the way, you'd see people changing all the way, but in a gradual kind of way.


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