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BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004

GUEST,Frank Hamilton 31 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 31 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM
Mr Happy 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM
Declan 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM
Clinton Hammond 31 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 12:10 PM
Mr Happy 31 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM
Clinton Hammond 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 31 Jan 03 - 12:19 PM
Mr Happy 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM
Declan 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 31 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,James 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Smoking YUK!!!!!!!! 31 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Geordie 31 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM
ard mhacha 31 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM
harvey andrews 31 Jan 03 - 02:40 PM
treewind 31 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM
Jim Colbert 31 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM
gnu 31 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM
Gareth 31 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM
Jimmy C 01 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 09:20 AM
Marc 01 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM
JudeL 01 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM
JudeL 01 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM
Mary Humphreys 01 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM
TonyK 01 Feb 03 - 10:43 AM
Frankham 01 Feb 03 - 12:43 PM
vindelis 01 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM
vindelis 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM
JudeL 01 Feb 03 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM
vectis 01 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM
Hrothgar 01 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Frankham 02 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM
greg stephens 02 Feb 03 - 06:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 03 - 07:30 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 08:16 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 08:19 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,guest 02 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM
Coyote Breath 02 Feb 03 - 11:39 PM
Boab 03 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM
Kaleea 03 Feb 03 - 03:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 07:07 AM
Declan 03 Feb 03 - 07:20 AM
Teribus 03 Feb 03 - 07:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 07:51 AM
Orac 03 Feb 03 - 10:39 AM
Julie B 03 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM
Julie B 03 Feb 03 - 11:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM
Jim Colbert 03 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM
HelenR 03 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM
TonyK 04 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM
sed 04 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM
GUEST 04 Feb 03 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM
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Subject: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

Hi Comhaltas and Irish music enthusiasts. This should stir up interest. I am in favor.

Frank
****************************************

Ireland to Eliminate Smoking in Pubs, Clubs
Parts excepted from Associated Press
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer

DUBLIN, Ireland - A once unthinkable change is coming to one of the social hubs of Ireland: The pub is going smoke-free.

The government said Thursday that it will ban smoking from all workplaces including pubs, where a pint and a cigarette have long gone hand in hand. "This ban will mean a massive cultural change for people all around this country," said Health Minister Michael Martin in announcing the new rules.

In fact, the change is so significant that the government has given the public 11 months notice before enforcing the ban: the new law takes effect Jan. 1, 2004.

In announcing the ban, Martin released a study that links second-hand smoke to cancer and heart disease in workplaces. "I'm doing this because, as this report makes inescapably clear, I have no choice," he said.

Martin said the health department surveyed opinion among Ireland's 3.8 million people, about 70 percent of whom don't smoke, and decided that designating no smoking areas within pubs simply wouldn't work.

"The majority — the overwhelming majority — have said to me and to the department: Go the whole way. The majority are in favor of an all-out ban," he said.

Maureen Mulvihill, promotions manager at the Irish Heart Foundation, said thousands of nonsmokers like her had felt uncomfortable in pubs. "It's surprising news," she said, "but it's only possible because of the drastic change in public opinion."

Martin has already raised the legal age for buying cigarettes from 16 to 18; outlawed tobacco ads in newspapers and magazines; and barred tobacco companies from sponsoring events.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland, representing about 6,000 pubs, vowed to fight the ban, which it called "unworkable, untenable and unenforceable." It insisted that better ventilation was a reasonable alternative, but Martin said that would be insufficient.

Pubs that flout the ban would be fined, he said, without specifying the amounts.

Mandate, the union representing pub employees, supported a ban, citing research claiming an estimated 150 bar staff in Ireland die prematurely each year because of second-hand smoke.

Barmen said the change would be for the best.

"I think it's a good idea," said Damian Ryan, assistant manager at Doheny and Nesbitts, a favorite watering hole for politicians just around the corner from parliament. "The reason above all that people come to a pub is to meet people and chat. They don't need a cigarette for that."


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

As I understand it, the Government's intention was to ban smoking while meals are being served. The bar staff union made it a workplace issue, but I didn't think they had won their case for a total ban. There are surely too many pub owners moonlighting as TDs (Members of Parliament) for that to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

It should be up to Pun owners how they run pubs. I wish the gov. would mind it's own bloody business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

pun?


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

The intention announced yesterday is for a total ban in every workplace, including Pubs, which are the workplace of the bar staff. As APC suggests although the workers (or at least their Unions) are happy the publicans are not. The Vintners groups (as you'd expect in Ireland there are at least two of them) are not happy and they do form a powerful lobby. The effective date is 1 January next which allows for the necessary legislation to be passed, and it wouldn't surprise me too much if there was a fudge on this.

As a non-smoker it seems like a good idea to me, but obviously smokers have a different view. Some say they would stop going to the pub to drink altogether if they are not allowed to smoke, but I don't know if this would be the case in practice. It will be interesting to see if this legislation does emerge and whether or to what extent it will be enforced. Many public spaces in Ireland have been smoke free for a number of years, most people observe this, but there are usually a few rogue smokers around the place who ignore this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

If the poisions coming off the end of a lit cigarette were present in the air of a mine-shaft, or a factory floor, no one would be allowed to work there!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

I would not go to the Pub if I could not have a pint and a cig. I also agree that non smokers should have places where they can. If Pub owners wish to smoke free I think that would be great. If they wish to cater to a clientele who smokes, they should be able to do that. Total bans seem to be heavyhanded and one sided.
   I go out with friends once a week to have a beer, a smoke and hear some music. All of my pals smoke, we would simply go home, have a beer, a smoke and listen to cds..cheaper but not as much fun. I think this move would hurt Pubs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:10 PM

Mr. Happy; I think you know what I meant. It was a typo, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

tobacco products should all be on the dangerous substances list along with crack, smack,etc


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

and alcohol while yer at it Mr. Happy...

And driving...

And getting out of bed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

I agree with guest. ideally there should be two rooms in pubs, one for smokers, one for non-smokers.but to make it illegal is stupid, it will just make people stay at home. i smoke if i went to pub, and was told not to smoke there, i would not go back again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM

My Dear mr. Hammond people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries. There were no do gooders banning mines or paint factories. In fact no gave a shite. Nor does anyone wish to ban parking lots at pubs on account of cars being the cause of the most noxious pollutants. If you wish to avaid pollution from cigarettes..avaid cigarettes..that is what I do. Common sense os so uncommon. Let the poor buggers have a pint and a puff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:19 PM

"150 bar staff die in irelans each year, because of customers smoking", how does he know this, i think he is just making it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

clinton,

don't really tink the irish would swallow alcohol being banned in their pubs!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

The proposed ban is not to protect the health of the non-smokers, but that of the bar staff. Governments have a duty to ensure the Health and safety of workers is protected. If this thread had been about the pub owners insisting that bar staff worked in an environment contaminated by asbestos for example, I'm sure a lot of people would respond saying that the workers health should be protected.

Previous experiments of this kind in Ireland have failed, but in those cases there was another pub down the road where you could smoke, so the people went there instead. It will be a different situation where smoking in all pubs is banned. I expect that from next year onwards, we will be seeing little huddles of smokers in the doorway of the pub grabbing a smoke before going back to their pint, pretty much in the same way as you see people congregating in the doorways of Office blocks at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM

"people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries"

And you'll notice that, especially in the last 50 or so years, safety has become a MAJOR issue... Because now people know better than to not "give a shite"

It's not the 'poor buggers' with their 'pint and a puff' that concerns me... It's the barstaff who are made to work in an environment with air that'd knock a buzzard of a sh!t-wagon... That's who this law is intended to help...


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

I understand who the law is meant to help. I agree that no one should have to work in smoke filled bars. However, this can be achieved without banning smoking entirely. I do not believe that smokers will huddle round the door of the Pub, they will go home. Any jurisdiction that has banned smoking in pubs has seen many pubs close.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

"Any jurisdiction that has banned smoking in pubs has seen many pubs close."

As far as I know, that's only when there's an alternative right down the street... A total ban on the other hand...


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,James
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Ten years ago a mine explosion in Nova Scotia killed dozens of miners because no one gave a damn, especially the government. Anyone who thinks that these bans have anything to do with politicans caring about working people is kidding themselves.
Where I live the three major sources of revenue for the "caring Government" are gambling ,booze anf smokes. They banned smoking bars, liquor revunue went down so they simply increased the tax on smokes. This anti smoking thing is so hypocritical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Smoking YUK!!!!!!!!
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

Much as I find smoking not only injurious to my health and dislike it in its entirety.....I cannot see how Irish publicans are going to enforce this most fascinating piece of European legislature...most are chain smokers themselves...Do nothing to stop their clients drinking them into an early grave and destroying all possibility of a normal family life in front of their very own eyes..and have scant regard for the observence opening hours..a small smoking room needs to be provided that does not emit fumes into the rest of the bar as an intermidiate measure..Ireland is way behind other European countries in its widespread addiction to nicotine.. small children can be seen openly smoking on the street.and lets not mention alcahol dependemce...whole families seem to communaly drink themselves into the undertakers....I'm afraid blanket ban will just not work without widespread education of the dangers and perhaps the stronger use of stigmatisation of the suicidal habit of nicotine addiction and alcahol
dependency....I am London Irish myself and love a good drinking session myself occassionaly,I love Ireland,but am often disgusted by how so many people in the old countries blind addiction to these diabolical vices..


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

I would like to see the following sorces of pollution banned

All cars in urban areas with public transit. All SUV's, snowmobiles and ATV's, these are ecologicaly disastrous. Wood stoves, fireplaces, coal burning homes and factories.Perfumes, deodorants,insecticides, pesticides, roses, hay, goldenrod, scented candles, portable radios,air conditioners and oh yes, cigarettes. Now THAT would make me feel that we care about pollution. Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

Have a chat with a non-smoking bar worker and you will find as I have that they are in total agreement with a ban on smoking.
It`s too bad that it will be almost impossible to enforce. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:40 PM

I wish they'd do this in England! As an asthmatic I haven't had a night out in a pub for years, it's just too unpleasant. I have friends who also don't go to pubs because of smoke problems. They will replace the missing smokers.Folk clubs I've been working in the last few years have found the audience benefits and increases in number where smoking has been stopped.Many people on my mailing list won't go to a pub folk club and will only come when I'm working arts centre, theatres or village halls. It seems one group will suffer from this ban and one group will benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM

No smoke!
No PELs!
Let's emigrate!

(not so sure about the beer though)
(OK there's Guinness - at a price!)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM

(snip) people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries. There were no do gooders banning mines or paint factories.


Quite true, but... if someone chooses to work as a collier, I am not going to pick up "second hand black lung." Here in Pennsylvania, I would frequent the bar (our equiv. of a pub, more or less) more readily if I didn't leave reeking of smoke.

But I do know what you mean about government's selective enforcement of laws designed to save us from ourselves... reminds me a little of the motorcycle helmet controversies here, too.

jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

My apologies for not reading most of the posts to this thread, thereby possibly repeating something (which may bear repeating).

Smoking should not be allowed in any enclosed public space. If you want to allow smokers to "participate" in a venue such as a pub, a separately ventilated space should be provided with the entertainment piped in via sound system. If you want to have a pub where smoking is allowed, subject admittance to membership, and subject the membership to the appropriate waivers. It's not rocket science. As far as those who oppose, c'mon, use those last few brain cells wisely.

I ask people who visit my house if they mind if I smoke. After all, I AM a gentleman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM

I hope it bring people back to the much less antisocial and older tradition of taking snuff.

I've never understood why it hasn't taken off once again in the modern world, what with all the non-smoking rules on trains and in offices and so forth. Snuff-takers don't need to worry about it. (Well you gte some funny look from people who aren't used to it, and maybe misunderstand what that brown stuff is that you're snuffing.)

You don't get secondary snuffing. (And it doesn't get to your lungs even if it's you taking the snuff. All right, it's probably doing your nose no good at all...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM

Hmmm ! -

1/. Secondary Exposure to Asbestos is a Legal and Medical fact.

2/. Smoking underground, or the possesion underground of smoking materials has been a criminal offence (in the UK0 for many years.

3/. Factory regulations have been more concerned with the loss of production rather than safty of the workforce.

And on a lighter note - Doe anyone remember the old joke.

"Why has cigaette advertising been banned in Ireland ?"

"The slogan 'Light up an Embassy' was felt to be provocative !"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jimmy C
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM

being a non smoker for many years now, I can see this ban working with no effect on a pub's revenue, at least in the long run.. The smoking customers will just be replaced by non-smoking customers who have been more or less forced to stay home and drink rather that go to a smoky smelly pub. There will be a transitional period of course but everyone will survive and be better off because of it. With more and more people kicking the habit it stands to reason to attract that growing percentage of the market. I was in a restaurant in Memphis, that was in fact 2 restaurants   side by side, one for smokers and one for non-smokers, but the smoking part had non-smoking staff I am sure. Maybe there may have to be an allowance to establish smokers pubs to operate next door or close to a non-smokers pub. What is a concern is the number of young people, especially teenage girls who are taking up the habit. I used to hate playing in a smoky atmosphere once I gave tobacco up, but when I smoked it did not bother me at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:20 AM

I don't particularly mind playing in a smoky room. What I loathe is when someone puts a fag down to burn away in the ashtray, without quenching it first. At least when they are smoking properly the worst gunge gets filtered out and stays in their lungs. And I hate the smell on my clothes when I get home.

If you have to smoke, a pipe's a much less anti-social way of doing it, I alwasy think. But snuff is better. A snuff is as good as a feast, as they almost say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Marc
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM

The problem with the theory that nonsmoking customers will replace the smokers. Is by and large the nonsmoking population tend to be a more health conscious group than smokers. a larger percentage of them are likely to have one or two, or even worst tea or soft drinks. The hard drinker who is prone to an evening of pints tends to be more tolerant of smokers. All of the nonsmokers who have posted thus far have said that they'd stop back for the occasional pint. This won't keep the pub open, the pub owner needs people who are capable of sitting and drinking for hours. I've seen a few local bars hear in Ct., USA, voluntarily go smoke free, and invariably they've gone back. Folks really don.t like to walk away from their drink to stand in the rain for a fag. And the people that replaced them just don't drink as much. By the way, does anyone know how this experiment is working in NYC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM

I too suffer from asthma and judging by the number of people who offered me their own inhaler when I had an attack and couldn't find mine so are a lot of others. For me being in a smoke filled room is not just unpleasant but can be actively dangerous. Smokers are in the minority but they impose their choice on evryone. Even one person chain smoking in a room (whether or not it has ventilation) can still render that room unpleasant or even dangerous for everyone else in that room. I keep hearing about the smoker's "right" to choice but unfortunately that individual by smoking removes the rights of every other person to choose not to smoke. While there may be a few people who choose to stay at home if they are not allowed to smoke in pubs since they are a minority and having smoke free pubs would encourage those who currently avoid such places to go there again I believe that after a short time of re-adjustment the pubs will end up with an even bigger customer base. I know I have a vested interest, because there are places where I have been forced to leave because I could not breathe, which if they were smoke free I could then go, but as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the British Government stop being cowards and enact similar legislation for us over here the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM

It's easier to drink more if your hands aren't cluttered up with a cigarette.

Thinking around the people I know, I don't think there's any particular tendency for the non-smokers to drink less. What makes the difference is if you're the one driving.

Irish ingenuity being what it is, if this comes into law there'll be a move away from the single bar to one where there's a separate smoking room, which won't have bar-staff working in it. And anything that breaks pubs up into rooms that way is a good thing I'd say. So long as they don't make the smoking room the session room as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM

"Non-smokers don't drink as much" ? Where-ever did you get that idea? Believe me there are plenty of us who enjoy our pints but don't stay as long as we might because the smoke drives us away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM

From a fellow Asthma sufferer, JudeL, all I can add is : hear! hear!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: TonyK
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:43 AM

I think the smokers would adapt to the ban. Look at all the smokers who stand out in the freezing rain to smoke now. Addiction makes people adapt because they have little or no choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:43 PM

A non-smoking section in a restaurant or bar is the same as a non-peeing section in a swimming pool. :)

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vindelis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM

I know I have read about Irish publicans creating no-smoking areas, or banning smoking, before. The result on each occaision was that people voted with their feet and took their custom elsewhere. A total ban? As a non-smoker it would be wonderful to be able to go out for the evening and not come home smelling like a stale ash-tray. The Smokers' problem, is that like Folkies, they are now a 'Political Minority' and therefore safe to thrash. How long before they start looking at the Convention of Human Rights?


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM

Non-smoking section in a room, agreed that is a bit of a nonsence, since the smoke doesn't read the noitices even if the smokers do. A smoking room with a door on it that makes a lot sense, and is easy enough to organise. They'd just have to put back the walls and the doors they've been so busy knocking down.

Why should good manners be such a big deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vindelis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM

A good extractor fan would also be essential. Entering a room that is blue with tobbaco smoke is no fun. Bin there, seen it, got the tee-shirt etc.... (No I never have dun it - just didn't like the smell).


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:57 PM

In terms of the convention of human rights it is not that their right to kill themselves is being arbitrarily and unnecessarily restricted but rather that their "right " to inflict and impose their choice on others is being quite reasonably resticted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM

A ban on smoking as such is arguably an infringment on human rights, whether it is tobacco or cannabis. A ban on smoking it in a particular room or rooms is quite another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM

Odd isn't, to see how violent the reaction is against the reasonable efforts to protect the majority's health from the devastating health effects caused by a minority of people with an addiction that can kill and maim so many of the people around them? That people are actually throwing terms around like "human rights" to describe the rights of the addicted smoker?

Why is it that so many here seem to believe that people with such a destructive addiction that clearly impacts the health of everyone around them, should have some special sanctions so they can continue to "enjoy" their addiction? At everyone's expense?

Just bizarre, but that is the nature of culture and tradition, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vectis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

I am desperately trying to kick the weed but being a real wuss about it. I can't go to a pub and see others smoking without having one myself. I know I'm being a total pillock but that's the way I am. A ban would be helpful to me ... unless I joined the mob at the door of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM

I have seen the effects of a similar ban on the main session bar at the National Folk Festival in Canberra.

As far as I can see, a lot of the old hands, who are physically incapable of playing music without a cigarette lit (even if they're not actually puffing on it!), have given up on the big sessions. Some don't even come to the National any more. On the other hand, instead of one monster (mostly Irish) session, there are now a number of smaller sessions going on.

The nett result is that there are the same number of people there, the average age is lower, and there is a far larger range of musical styles catered for.

As a non-smoker, who put up with the smoke in the past for the sake of the music and the singing, I find the current situation far better. I'll be interested to see if any other NFF attendees have similar or different observations.


My guess is that the diehards in Ireland will be having sessions at home or in other private venues, and the bar trade will not go down because different people will be in the pubs. The major loss might be that the younger musicians will not get to hear the range of tunes etc that the old hands know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

McGrath, you say that................
A ban on smoking as such is arguably an infringment on human rights,

It is an argument that is made. The infringement might also be the rights of people to breathe clean air. I think if a person wants to ingest poison, they may have the right to do so provided they don't subject others to it.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:07 PM

I'll lsten with interest to the non-drivers who argue for the smoking ban. But if you've got a car, spare us the hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

That was the point I was making Frankham. The right to smoke doesn''t mean a right to smoke in a room where other people have to breathe it.

In pretty well any bar these days, I suspect, and in any session, most of the people would prefer it if other people weren't smoking. Why should people who feel like smoking take advantage of the tolerance of their companions? It's not exactly difficult to pop out for a smoke. Just a matter of basic good manners really. Live and let live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

Greg, as an asthmatic I miss your point totally. I am never locked in   a garage with four or five or even more cars with their engines switched on in a confined space. I understand your basic point, but you can't seriously apply it to a small room, unless you're an addict looking for any excuse for a habit you know is doing you harm. I've just seen a fine human being die of alcoholism and none of his friends could make him quit. He was hugely intelligent but would do anything and use any arguement to avoid facing the fact that he was addicted to a harmful drug. You can't call asthmatics hypocrites. You could try to understand our point of view, as we understand your addiction if you are a smoker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM

Noone is addicted to smoking. Smoking is just a habit and a mannerism. People do get addicted to nicotine, but there are lots of other ways of getting a fix - snuff being the most traditional. And none of them involve imposing the stuff on other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

Pretty semantic McGrath..but okay. However, who's going to do the dusting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:30 PM

Vacuum cleaners don't get asthma.

The point is, it is pretty hard to give up an addiction, but it's not particularly hard to adjust your way of satisfying it.

My father could never keep a pipe alight, he smoked matches as my mother said. And that's another way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

Maybe in general non smoking in clubs is worth persuing. I don't really know.

I only know what happened in Llandudno and I was very anti.

The tale as I remember it goes went that we had a guest on the night. I think Harvey Andrews though can't be sure who did not want smoking and the decision on the night was taken to ban smoking.

I, a smoker spoke, to the Guest in question, who in fairness was very friendly and reasonable but decided not to go in and was very annoyed that there had been no forwarning of this circumstance or the view that this was to be the way from then on...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM

It might well have been me John. I have posters requesting non smoking as do other artists now, because of my asthma. At 59 years of age I can't help it. It's a request, not a ban. If you want the best of my voice, clean air gets it.Glad I was reasonable. Sorry you missed a good night. It was some years ago when the issue was only just being raised I think. However, if what I had to offer was beaten by three or four fags I can't fight against that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM

No Harvey, it was beaten by a late announcement - on the night. I had been part of the resisident group for mybe as long as 8 yrs, par of what was called "The Rambling Boys" - pretty rotten but regualr and ensuring at least something happened each week.

The organisers at the time of this knew me and used me most weeks as a floorsinger.

Not being forwarned, etc. was my objection and remained my objection until the club eventaully changed venues.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM

Okay. Local spat outside my parameters then. Thanks Jon. Hope you're still Rambling!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:16 PM

Sorry... my time in the resident group there ended about 2 years I think before that. We also were the organisers then but decided to pack in.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:19 PM

I'm not blaming you Harvey. I just think care needs taking and maybe disucssion before taking no smoking clubs. I believe it was ultimately a small part in the death of Llandudno and the formation of Conwy, of which I was a founder, but by no means a whole story.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM

Agreed.Most clubs are now non-smoking, at least the ones that I play. Maybe that's 'cause the others won't book me! I played two folk clubs recently gross audience over 300 and not a smoker amongst 'em...until you stepped outside for a breath of fresh air in the interval! There they were..guilty..but unbowed. Good banter ensued!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

Smoking nay be bad for both the smoker and the non-smoker but if it's to be totally banned, then it should be followed by a ban on alcohol.

Drink is the cause of far more deaths than cigarettes. It cause extreme hardship on families and communities alike. So yep ban cigarettes but do likewise to alcohol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:39 PM

It was amusing (briefly) to see all the patrons standing outside the Starry Plough in Berkeley(California, where a total ban on smoking INSIDE such establishments is currently law). As soon as the band was ready to play (and were done with their smokes) all trooped back inside to continue an evening's enjoyment (drinking and singing and etc.). True, smoker's will adapt. To which I say hurrah! The ability to adapt is crucial to survival.

I smoked for many years. It took me EIGHT years to quit (fits and starts) and finally good old "cold turkey" did the trick. That was back on July 26th, 1975.

I still get an urge to smoke every once and a while.

It is an addiction. NO QUESTION about it. The ban in bars and pubs in California may be unfair to smokers but to those of us who have quit it is a help to stay smoke free and still enjoy a night out.

That said, I think that the ban on smoking in Republic of Ireland pubs is just another way to keep a united Ireland from happening.

I can't imagine that any but the most fanatical of Republicans in the North ever opting for joining the "smokeless 26"!

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Boab
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM

Some pubs in my "home town" ---I live in British Columbia---have put a ban on smoking in the main bar, and have constructed a "smoking room" which is off-limits to the staff. As far as I can see there has been no decline in their custom; indeed one of the pubs described is by far the busiest in the area. This may be because they serve good grub in the bar area along with the pints. As a result non-smokers ---like me---- have a real choice. Without such places, we would have a choice--of the Hobson type; either come in and breathe filth or do without a pint and a song/blether with your mates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:17 AM

HURRAH!!! Now I will start saving for that long awaited trip to experience the music in the pubs of Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:07 AM

GUEST guest - nobody is suggesting a ban on smoking, just a ban on smoking in certain buildings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:20 AM

So in these smoking rooms, which are air tight I presume, and of which the doors are never left open for the smoke to escape from it - who collects the empty glasses, performs the filthy job of emptying ash trays and ensures that general order is preserved. I know of many pubs with back rooms that don't have a bar in them, but the staff still have to go in and work there. I also can't see the majority of publicans in this country being well disposed to carrying out the necessary renovations to provide these rooms. I'd say that although it will be impossible to strictly enforce it all the time, a total ban would be preferable to most pub owners in Ireland than installing expensive ventilation equipment and re-constructing the pub.

People are going to have to choose which of their vices are more important to them, and, particularly in this country, I think deserting the pub is unlikely to be the choice of many people. I know some people who already nip outside the pub for a smoke on a regular basis, because what they are smoking is not legal and they don't want to risk eviction from the premesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:41 AM

Smoking Ban in Ireland 2004 - refers to Pubs.

The smoking ban they intend to introduce in Norway, I think by 2006, is total - any public space anywhere in the country.

Liked the reference to the non-peeing end of a swimming pool Frank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:51 AM

"Bring your glasses to the bar" is a normal enough cry at closing time. And going in to clear the ash-trays and collect the empties isn't the same as spending the whole of youir working life having smoke blown in your face.

If they hadn't gone round knocking the old bars into open plan lay-outs, it'd be an easy enough change to make in most pubs.

It isn't all that long since the expectation was that smoking was something people would do in a place set aside for it, and maybe even wearing a smoking jacket and so forth. Like a lot of innovations, this is another case where in a way it's getting back to old ways that had more sense than people appreciated when they abandoned them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Orac
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:39 AM

Yippee thats all I can say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Julie B
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

I feel really under the weather today. Woke up with headache, as if I had a hangover, and with sore eyes. Took my a while to realise why. Yesterday I went to two tune sessions - one lunchtime, on evening. Several smokers present at both. So I come home and the smoke is in my clothes, hair, eyes lungs. Roll on festival season so I can nip off to places like the Four Fools in Chorley, held in a school with a non-smoking policy throughout.
Julie B
P.S. Had a great New Year's Eve session at the Red Lion in Bassingbourne (over Cambridge way). Held in non-smoking bar - stayed there until 1.30am but still felt as fresh as a daisy on New Years day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Julie B
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:02 AM

...but despite the effects of smoke, I still loath and despise the sound of the ubiquitous "Thump Thump" juxbox music even more (and Heaven forbid that it be turned off or down while sessions/singarounds take place in the next room. Is it me?!!!
Julie B


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM

Now if Kim Howells had only come down on that and outlawed all canned music instead of live music, how we'd love him.

What's even worse than the jukebox can be when the canned music is controlled from behind the bar. Some jukeboxes have silent tracks you can buy, in which case a whip round could pay for an evening playing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM

"Smoking nay be bad for both the smoker and the non-smoker but if it's to be totally banned, then it should be followed by a ban on alcohol."

Bullsh•t. Alcohol has indeed been the cause of many a hardship through the years and alcoholism has been a part of the demise of some of my songwriting heroes (townes, gene clark, jim ringer) but if you're sitting next to me downing whiskeys that in itself, assuming you're not driving or getting drunk and whacking me in the head with something, is not harming me, it's "only" damaging just your own liver and life. Meanwhile your second hand smoke is going up my nose and into my lungs, besides making my clothes and hair smell bad...

jpc


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: HelenR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

I'd like to add my agreement to all those people, particularly asthmatics, who are fed up with avoiding smoky atmospheres. I'm asthmatic too and I've had to stop going to some sessions, including - annoyingly - my only local one. Some smokers seem oblivious to the fact that they are currently depriving many of the rest of us of a normal social life. As McGrath points out, they can always get their nicotine fix in some other way, if it's impossible to beat the craving. It's their choice. But they don't have a 'right' to fill everyone else's airways with noxious and deadly chemicals. Arguments stating that there weren't any employment rights in the good old days - and that was somehow OK - just leave me horrified and baffled. I used to smoke myself, but I never would have argued that it was my 'right' to inflict it on other people - I was just blithely ignorant of the harm and unpleasantness I was causing, like most smokers are until they give up.
I'm delighted by the ban. There will no doubt be angry negotiations and it's not going to transform things overnight - but it at least shows that there is a cultural change underway. Thank God...


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: TonyK
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM

I prefer to think of all the good that will come of it rather than focus on what will be lost. There's no change without loss. There's a price for doing it and a price for not doing it and as an adult I get to choose.

I did a report in school a few years back about teenage smoking. The American Surgeon General Report (1994) stated that more people die from smoking related causes in one year than die of alcohol use, drug use, traffic accidents, suicides and A.I.D.S. (in America) combined. Over 400,000 per year. Non smokers that died of second hand smoke related causes came in at a paltry 50,000 per year. Granted the report is almost 10 years old and and many smokers have quit or died since then.

I quit 12 years ago and feel good about not having to worry as much about lung cancer and emphasema. I may still get it, but I won't have the sting of guilt knowing that I could've done something about it. I empathize with smokers' struggles and try to help whenever I can. Been there, done that. Smoke-free is a beautiful thing.

Tony K


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: sed
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

This is truly amazing: no smoke in Irish pubs???
Can people really change? Over twenty years ago C. Orian Truss told me that the parents of his allergy patients would do anything to help their child, including mortgaging their own home to pay for treatment, BUT they just couldn't give up smoking.

We'll see what happens. Public smoke has kept me off many a stage for most of my career. Maybe as an old man I will be able to sing in bars.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:35 PM

The Irish will survive this, just as they did the tightening of drink driving laws in the early 90s. Nice to see the state finally forcing it's citizenry to come to grips with some of the worst health and addiction statistics in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM

So in Ireland they ban smoking in pubs, and in England they ban music sessions, but leave smoking untouched. Shows where the priorities are.


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