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BS: Warning LOTR return of the king

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Cllr 11 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM
Cllr 11 Jan 03 - 07:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 03 - 08:03 AM
Cllr 11 Jan 03 - 08:06 AM
Peter T. 11 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM
Peter T. 11 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM
Peter T. 11 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM
Beccy 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 03 - 02:36 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM
Peter T. 11 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM
NicoleC 11 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM
stevetheORC 11 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 03 - 05:58 PM
stevetheORC 11 Jan 03 - 06:13 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM
Art Thieme 11 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM
Steve Latimer 11 Jan 03 - 11:17 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 11:24 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 11:25 PM
mousethief 12 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM
Steve Latimer 12 Jan 03 - 12:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 03 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Eliza Carthy 12 Jan 03 - 03:40 PM
Cluin 12 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 12 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM
BanjoRay 13 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM
Kim C 13 Jan 03 - 04:14 PM
Ron Olesko 13 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 03 - 06:30 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Jan 03 - 06:53 PM
Coyote Breath 14 Jan 03 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Guest 14 Jan 03 - 08:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM
GUEST 14 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM
Art Thieme 14 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 03 - 04:40 AM
winterchild 15 Jan 03 - 05:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM
Hollowfox 15 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM
Naemanson 15 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM
Hollowfox 15 Jan 03 - 06:42 PM
Cluin 15 Jan 03 - 11:09 PM
Naemanson 16 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Jan 03 - 10:08 AM
Cllr 16 Jan 03 - 10:47 AM
EBarnacle1 16 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM
Naemanson 16 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM
Penny S. 19 Jan 03 - 06:10 AM
Cluin 19 Jan 03 - 11:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM
Hollowfox 19 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 03 - 02:49 PM
JennyO 19 Jan 03 - 10:41 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 03 - 11:14 PM
Cluin 20 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jan 03 - 04:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 03 - 05:21 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 03 - 12:14 AM
GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) 21 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM
Naemanson 21 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM
Naemanson 21 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM
Penny S. 21 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) 24 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM
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Subject: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html
Heads up for fan of LOTR
Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:55 AM

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html

Damn could someone turn this link into a blue clicky I seem to have failed on my saving throw.Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:03 AM

Here y'are


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:06 AM

Thank you Mcgrath you are a gentlemanCllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

Brilliant, but they could certainly use a couple of new characters, i.e. women who get to actually do something except wait for their man to return. yours, Peter T. (P.S. I think that the films are superior to the books)


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

You want a woman that does something? Watch out for Eowyn, Theoden's niece.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

You mean the blond one that sits around and waits for her man to return, as opposed to the blackhaired one that sits around and waits for the same man to return? yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

Don't forget that the Morgul king cannor die by hand of man, Peter!

God, I am turning into an anorak...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM

Peter, my lad, you have lost your bearings utterly! Ha! Ha! Go view Tomb Raider or some such schlock like that if you want to see women who "take charge". You're a victim of some hideous after-effect of late 20th century marketing.

Jar-Jaromir is such a brilliant comment on commercial film-making that I am rendered speechless! Well, almost...

Forget that I said that.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM

It appears you never made it to the third volume Peter.

I read somewhere that Tolkien used to read bits of the work in progress to his children, and Eowyn was to some extent his response to his daughter's complaining that the women didn't get to do much.

Books are an expression of the experience of the people who write them. For Tolkien the key experience was probably the Western Front. There weren't any women fighting in the trenches. There were women in the war, but in the field hospitals and so forth. That's reflected in the way things happen in the Lord of the Rings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Well, I must confess I have forgotten what happened in Volume 3, glad to hear a warrior princess gets to make her mark, presumably chopping orcs into bits. The books got so boring and confusing that I must have missed that part.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

That was a hoot! I thought we were original in our LOTR/Star Wars confusion. We made Jedi Robes for our little ones (at their request) for Christmas. My eldest was wearing his and looking very sinister. When I asked what he was pretending, he said, "Mom, I'm a Nazgul with a light saber who is going to fight Darth Vader and Frodo. But not Bilbo- cause he found the one ring of power."

Did ya'll hear what the actor who did Jar Jar's voice said when asked how he felt about being the most hated Star Wars character of all time? He said, "Well, here's how I feel about it. I was in Star Wars and you weren't."


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

Oh! Ouch! Peter!!! Look, I can recommend a good therapist. Do you have trouble seeing brilliance in William Shatner too? Do you? I thought so. Get help, Peter! Get help now. I am a friend and I want only what is good for you.

- lH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:36 PM

Myself I quite liked Jar Jar Binks, and thought the hoohah about the character cynical nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

I'm with you McGrath.... Jar Jar was the only character who was a CHARACTER in that boring movie. I was sorry they cut him out of the 2nd film. All the other charcters were cardboard stereotypes with a ton of bad acting to match a ridiculously mundane story. I fail to see the spectacle of Star Wars. Talk about being suckered in by hype!

I thought both the LOTR books and films provide great entertainment, but I wouldn't bother to hold one up to the other. Each has its own merits and those folks who whine about changes in characters need to get a life!

Sorry, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this moring. Unfortunately it was a solid wall. Ouch!

Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM

Peter T said he "was glad to hear a warrior princess gets to make her mark, presumably chopping orcs into bits."

Furgoonessakes! You REALLY can't have read The Return of the King!
She was in on the slaying of the head Nazgul!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM

What this Ring Cycle really needed was Brunnhilde. yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM

Ya'll are obviously forgetting Shelob. Now SHE is a bad Tolkein babe!


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

Women are also quite adept sometimes at working more powerful (but subtle) energies, whilst the menfolk run around busting heads, methinks.

I tend to agree that Jar Jar Binks took more than his fair share of criticism, having been the one refreshing character in a really quite tedious and overblown film. Star Wars has lost its soul, I'm afraid, overwhelmed by special effects and a dearth of good script writing.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM

It's all propoganda we Orcs is nice'n cuddly. DISAGREE and I'll rip your guts out and fry them with tatties!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:58 PM

That orcs a fake - ruining manflesh by cooking it indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:13 PM

Im bloody sivelized mate i know how to scoff my food


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

There's a few more tough chicks in the Silmarillion too. Beren could never have wrested a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown without Luthien.

And the Star Wars series ran out of steam in the 70s. It took the first nose dive when they brought Grover Yoda into it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

I thought he looked like Fozzie Bear after a bad shave......

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM

In the extra foorage in the DVD extended version # 3 that will come out 6 years from now, JarJaromir is shown to have been a woman all along. Nobody, however, knows where to look for her genitalia. (And, yes, genItalia really is the Italian national airline.)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:17 PM

Peter T.,

I'm glad to hear someone else say the movies are better than the books. I enjoyed reading "The Hobbit", but must confess that I didn't read the LOTR trilogy. I saw the first movie, loved it, started the book, got about half way through it and just didn't care anymore. I can think of about three other books that I didn't finish.

We saw the Twin Towers tonight, I thought it was even better than first. Perhaps the movies had what Tolkien didn't, a good editor. (Steve, running and ducking).


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:24 PM

You're probably right there, Steve. There's no way that all the things in the books could have been worked into the movie anyway, even if you wanted to sit there for several more hours. I look on them as two diffent, but related, things.

Tolkien's books are more for revisiting and savouring again and again. Not to everyone's taste, to be sure. But I enjoyed them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:25 PM

diffent? diffent?

Must be Elvish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM

LOTR is like a mirror. What you say about it says far more about you than about the books.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:40 AM

Ouch


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:22 AM

Must be Elvish?

Now there's a thought. Elvish is alive and well and living in Middle earth...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:40 PM

and when Tolkein died, Elvish left the building...
x e


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

Ouch! again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM

Dead right, troll! And life is a mirror like that too, only it's a far bigger one. Just observe what a person says about life, and you've got a good diagnosis of their basic character.

I think that in general, though, people who read the books first will prefer the books, while people who saw the movies first will prefer the movies. That would be fairly typical wouldn't it? The first experience of anything is the one that sets the pattern of familiarity and expectation.

Of course, there will still be the odd exception to that, but only among individuals of a particularly wretched and vile sort, warped from birth, and forever cursed to outer darkness...like Peter T. :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: BanjoRay
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

The best literary criticism I've ever read was about Lord Of The Rings. The superb (now dead) mountaineers Dougal Haston and mancunian Don Whillans were climbing one of the unclimbed ridges on Mt Denali, when they were hit by a severe storm, and they had to spend a week in a snowhole. With nothing to do but sit and wait, Haston got his copy of LOTR out of his rucksack and read some of it. Whillans asked him what he was reading so Dougal told him, and asked him if he wanted to borrow it, as he'd already read it. After a couple of hours, Whillans threw the book at Haston with a cry of "Fookin' fairies!" and stared at the snow for the rest of the week.
Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:14 PM

I wanted to hit Jar Jar Binks over the head with a shovel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM

Shovels would have been an appropriate tool for all the Star Wars films. Lucas sure piles the crap up deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 06:30 PM

I think the first three films (or should I say the second three - the ones that came out way back when we were all a lot younger) were great fun.

And I think the scenes with Jar Jar Binks - the underwater stuff - were the best bit in the prequels, which just didn't measure up. The point about Special Effects is that you shouldn't even notice them, just accept them as real, amazing perhaps but real. I hate stuff that looks like a video arcade game blown up to giant screen size.

Lord of the Rings comes out much better on that score. And on most others.

Apart from jokey bits about dwarf tossing and suchlike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 06:53 PM

I'm sorry, I shouldn't knock Star Wars. I never saw the appeal, even when the original movies came out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:56 AM

I had all but forgotten Shelob!

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:09 AM

Was Brunnhilde really much better? After all she was lying there waiting for her Prince Charming to come and rescue her(typical). Then Siegfried got drunk and decides how funny it would be to start a trio (swinging, is it called?) with Gunther and Gudrun...When she finally finds everything out, she starts breaking the dishes, including the pyre where this Nordic playboy Siegfried (can't really understand what makes him so attractive) was being burnt. The classical description of female hysteria. Is that what you miss in LOTR?
Honestly, Wagner's music is outstanding, but the plot of the (other) Ring is that of a soap opera, and a bad one, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

"Wagner's music is outstanding." A good way of putting it.

"For those who like that kind of thing, that is the kind of thing they like", as Miss Jean Brodie used to say in her prime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -- Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

PORTER WAGNER !!!

(art thieme)


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:40 AM

If the answer is 9W what is the question?

Do you spell your name with a V Herr Wagner?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: winterchild
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:11 AM

chuckle...

LOL!

ouch!

LOL!ouch! _BAD_ punners!

One point; Tolkien was indeed "long-winded", but he wrote for a time and people that went at a much slower pace than we today are used to. I read his stuff as a child with time to burn, before most of the "tolkien clones" (who are often even worse) started writing, so his work was unique and special. As an adult I find myself frustrated by a lot of the long bits in the books, but adore the movie. The care with which it was crafted makes it unique among most of today's movies, as well.

Okay, several points.

WinterC


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM

It always does seem strange that everyone seems to agree that now we have so many time-saving devices we have less time to spend than we used to. We've got far more time than in previous generations, it's just that we spend it on other things.

When people say that Tolkien is "long-winded" I'm reminded of the Austrian Emperor telling Mozart he used too many notes.

I've read the Lord of the Rings a few times now. I've never got the the end feeling "Well, that was a grind, thank goodness there isn't any more". And there are quite a lot of books, highly regarded books, and books I admire, where I have felt like that.

I think the old idea of works of fiction coming out over an extended period in parts makes a lot of sense. Not that it's old in the sense of having been abandoned, but it now seems to be resticted to some contexts.   The longest film ever made, or even the longest series of films, is dwarved in length by soap operas or long-running TV series.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Hollowfox
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

1) If you want a good synopsis/explanation of Wagner's Ring Cycle, scare up a copy of one of Anna Russell's CDs (reissued from her Columbia recordings) where she covers all four operas in 20 minutes, with musical examples.

2) For my money, the Star Wars series demonstrated the law of diminishing returns when they couldn't find a way to put Sir Alec Guinness on screen anymore.

3) I'm floodybucking Sick of people whining that there aren't enough female roles in the LOTR movies! If they made a movie about Tenzig and Hillary climbing Everest, would these dolts demand that there be a woman in the expedition?? When I was a kid in the Robin Hood mania stage, I wasn't imagining myself as Maid Marian. Hell no, I was one of the outlaws, trying my skill with archery, hunting deer, sneaking up on the sherrif's men and all. The lasses of equivalent age that I've listened to about LOTR imagine themselves as part of the Fellowship, not Arwen. When they imagine themselves as Eowen, it's as a shield-maiden, not some lovelorn lady stuck with the housekeeping. grumblegrumble$#@%@. Hrmph. Your bloodthirsty librarian, Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM

And I'm sure what Mary said doesn't just apply to kids, or to this genre.

Part of the magic of fiction is the way it can put you inside someone who is very different from you. If I was reading Jane Austin I'd never be looking round for some male character I could identify with. That's not where the action is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

So, Hollowfox, which Robin Hood was it that you were emulating? Jason Connery or any of his predecessors?

"LOTR is the second most read book in the world." This quote is from the biography of Tolkien packaged with the extended version of the Fellowship. I'm not saying they are right but I don't believe they would try to say it if it weren't up there as ONE of the most read books.

Be that as it may there are some in this world who do/will not like the books. They are written in a style that does not fit the modern world. They are long and packed with detailed description and long passages of exposition. They do not match modern sensibilities and mores. The Hobbit, a children's book, is full of death, mayhem, prejudice and bigotry. LOTR also carries on that same theme.

But I love them. I love the sense of loss and change that Tolkien weaves into the story, the great sadness that the Elves live with, the hope that Men carry and the indifference of the Dwarves to any but their own interests. I like my villains to be totally bad and easy to pick out in the story. I like my heroes to be troubled and to triumph in spite of overwhelming odds, and to still be troubled after all victories are put to bed. And I like plain down home simple people.

Tolkien puts this all together. Most of the knockoffs since do not concern themselves with any but the hero's story. The people he is fighting to defend are more abstract than integral to the story line. Tolkien brings them to life and gives them history and presence.

Or, he could have just be writing potboilers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Hollowfox
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:42 PM

Why bless your heart, Naemanson, to think that Jason Connery was a part of my childhood! It was the English series from the 1950s starring Richard Greene. I also enjoyed the William Tell and Lancelot shows. I still love 'em, but not with the love of my childhood. They'll keep you from complaining about plotline veracity in Xena, Hercules, and other pseudo-historical-folkloric tv series, though.
And they weren't broadcast at the same time as the Saturday opera radio broadcast, another source of exposition, clear-cut villins, and mayhem.
Come to think of it, maybe that's why I'm a ballad junkie, too.

McGrath, you know what I'm talking about. Thank you both, gentlemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:09 PM

But nobody ever buckled on a swash like Errol Flynn.

(unless it was Douglas Fairbanks, Sr.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

Hollowfox, my kids and I discovered that Robin Hood series when they were still young and impressionable. Now Jason Connery is their idea of the real Robin Hood but they liked the previous one better. I can't remember his name. But they hated Guy of Gisbourne.

Tolkien, D&D, and shows and movies like LOTR and Robin Hood filled the childhood of my daughters. I spent a very pleasant few months reading the entire Tolkien saga (Hobbit plus LOTR) to my older daughter when she was small. Now she is a member of the LURPS (Lancaster University Role Playing Society) and LARPs (Live Action Role Playing) whenever she can. And her Christmas present to her sister was a full size, very nicely decorated, latex sword. I can't imagine what impressions they got from their father.

There was an old show we watched in my youth, on Canadian TV, that was along the Robin Hood vein. I THINK it was from BBC. It had to do with a young man and a castle and was called Cherry or Chieri or something like that. Does that ring a bell with any of you in the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:08 AM

According to Kirsty MacColl in 1981, "There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's elvish"!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:47 AM

"But he's a liar and I'm not sure about you"


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

Just to tie a couple of threads together, it may be the heavy detailing of LOTR that makes Aubrey/Maturin so attractive to so many of us. The most important difference that I see between the two is that LOTR was designed to be finite but A/M was going to go on as long as O'Brian could milk it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Well, Tolkien wrote before the age of endless sequels. O'Brian started his series in that time but was able to ride the endless sequels until he died in the journey.

Some writers shouldn't be allowed to die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 06:10 AM

Hollowfox, I disagree with you about the women. I did my large epic narrative training on the Odyssey, for obvious reasons, and in that, there are a good number of female characters, given the nature of the story, and they make good contributions to the plot, and not by emulating men. Even the opposing females have depth, and are complex personalities with understandable behaviour. By comparison, Tolkein fails.
In reading the Odyssey, I identified with most of the central characters at some time or another, regardless of gender, and I believe this is common with girls. (As an aside, I am wondering if the presence of strong females in children's books may limit this wide-ranging empathy with characters - girls in my class seem to be being Hermione rather than Harry, but I may be underestimating them.)
In my early reading of Tolkein, I did the same - though many of the characters prove difficult to get into - how can one imagine oneself the equal of Aragorn?
Then I fixed on Eowyn - who I saw as a much stronger looking woman than the girl in the film - she doesn't look like a sword maiden, and has a very soft range of expressions. (Aside again - she says that all their women need to be sword women, but the rest of them look a bit wimpy in Helm's Deep.) On about the fourth re-reading, I found her unsatisfactory - she had to do man stuff to do anything. I wanted characters who were strong and effective without going to battle. The nurses and women working in Flanders would have been like that, and they don't appear in Tolkein. Edith Cavell? Absent.
The way she has to act fits with the other subtle prejudices in the books, which I only noticed in the film. It is not exactly racism, which has been mentioned. The good characters are all warriors. Non-warriors, such as Grima (how could the Riders have been taken in by such an obvious bad guy?) are dangerous. The bad fighters, like the stormtroopers in Star Wars, are not individuals, but parts of massed phalanxes - but see below, on orcs. Warriors may be tempted, like Boromir, but they come out good in the end. If the only way to be good is to be a warrior, then that is the way a woman has to be good. So Eowyn is a battlemaiden.
The other prejudice is about class. It's OK to be lower class, but you've got to be lower class under a master, in a rural way, such as Sam, not independent lower class as in towns. Orcs, obviously not warriors, are lower class, and probably from Sarf Lunnon, by their speech. Their blackness may be debateable, but their class origins are not. Oddly, lower class women are OK. Iorweth, who talks too much, but knows what Aragorn is on about is the only woman who acts realistically - but who would identify with her through the books? Possibly she is based on a college servant.
Obviously Tolkein is limited by his own experience, and the literature he read himself - women are notably not obvious in Beowulf, for example. But that doesn't alter the situation in the books - there are not enough active women. It is hard to see how they could be fitted into the Fellowship, but there could have been others around on route.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:15 AM

What about Galadriel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM

All I know is, when I'm watching Star Trek I don't find myself identifying with the human characters any more than the non-human ones.

Same goes for Wind in the Willows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Hollowfox
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

I agree with you, Penny, about the Odyssey (Circe being a favorite of mine), but in this case I was just complaining about the Peter Jackson film critics on this point. It never occurred to me to compare the Homer and Tolkein; interesting idea. I'd say its best to take any story on its own terms if you can, rather than comparing apples and oranges. Everybody has to set their own standards of forgiveness, though, for authors as products of their times, etc. I can chooose to overlook fighting "redskins" in Peter Pan, but the Gor novels of the 1960s or thereabouts don't make the cut. If you think Tolkein presented warriors as the only worthwhile characters, take a look at these books. Nothing but fighters and semi naked slavegirl/babes.
BTW, I didn't see Tolkein as portraying only warriors as good guys, except that the books focused on the War of the Ring. Farmer Maggot and Barliman Butterbur were highly respected by Tom Bombadil and Gandalf respectively, just as quick examples.
Oh, and I agree with you about the women of Rohan in the movie. And there didn't seem to be many horses for the population, either. Ah well, no movie is perfect, except perhaps the one in your or my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 02:49 PM

Warriors are a symbol of the sheer courage and tenacity we all have to call upon if we are to do battle with our own inner weaknesses and fears, our own dark side...and that is why warriors play such a defining role in heroic tales.

As for what might be called "prejudice", its rising is inevitable if one has values at all...and who does not?

The striking thing about evil is its sheer banality, its laziness, its ugliness, its lack of vision, its narrow horizons, its awful loneliness, its innate stupidity. It would be difficult not to feel some sense of prejudice in the presence of such evil...and it would also be quite hazardous not to.

Red Wolf and Dawntreader will agree with me on this.

I think the explanation for how Grima wormed his way into dominating Rohan is fairly simple. He only had to dominate one man...King Theoden...and he did that with the assistance of powerful magic wrought by Saruman. We may assume his evil nature was not nearly so obvious when the process began. Once Theoden had succumbed, the rest of the populace didn't matter any more...and note how glum they were, how the heart had gone out of the place. People knew well that things had gone seriously wrong in the palace and many knew that Grima was evil, but what could they do? Their loyalty was to the king, and if the king was enthralled, then by proxy so were they. Men with fewer scruples would naturally tend to work their way up in the ranks, given such a situation, while people of stronger character (like Eowyn and Eomer) could only watch bitterly from the side or else ride off into exile.

When Gandalf breaks the spell, he frees Theoden and thus, all of Rohan. The women of Rohan should indeed have been portrayed more strongly in the film, but it's a minor flaw in a very fine movie.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:41 PM

Well said, Little Hawk. I agree with what you said about warriors being a symbol of doing battle with our own inner weaknesses and fears. Everyone has a dark side, but many are not willing to look at it, or even to acknowledge its existence. To do so IS a heroic battle. One has to look beyond what is obvious in many cases, and see the meaning. I just saw the movie last week and found it excellent.

I had not thought too much about King Theoden's trance, and all the implications. I can see that it would have meaning on many levels, if you apply it to real life. Evil often is insidious, and goes unnoticed by those who are under the trance, and this is very dangerous.

Human beings seem to have an enormous capacity for 'getting used to' whatever situation they find themselves in, and unless they can step back and see the big picture, they can fall in deeper and deeper.

I have just experienced something like this on a personal level, in a relationship which is now breaking up. I gave away a lot of my power in this relationship, and now that I am coming out of it, it feels as if I am coming out of a trance.

I'm sure Tolkien meant for us to use the archetypal characters in the story to look beyond the obvious, and see the layers of meaning for us in our lives.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:14 PM

Yes. The thing that often makes people so angry at the end of a relationship is the sense of how much of their own identity they have lost in the process...by giving away their power to the other person. It can be very much like coming out of a trance. Both people, in fact, may feel that way. It's not uncommon in relationships.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM

Well, the Theoden bit was just Tolkien's reworking of the Grail King/Parsifal story... the healing of the wounded king and all is right again with the people and land. Knew his mythology and legend, did J.R.R.

Always go with the archetypes. They hit home readily with the audience.

Saruman was another one; in his case, his downfall was caused by his studying too much and relying too much on what was technology in Middle-earth (plus a bit of good old-fashioned jealousy of Gandalf for the respect he engendered). Tolkien was quite a Luddite, by all accounts--he hated the "dark satanic mills" that were taking over his rural "green and pleasant land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:35 PM

Well, anyone with half a grain of sense does prefer a green and pleasant land to an industrial slum...as evidenced by the fact that the business tycoons who make millions off those industries buy themselves green and pleasant hideaways here and there, instead of living in the hell they have made alongside the workers.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:21 PM

The central thing about the Lord of the Rings, surely, is that in the end it isn't the warriors who defeat Sauron, it's Frodo and Samwise, who are no warriors - as is emphasised repeatedly.

The refusal to use the Ring is essentially saying the same thing, that ultimately evil can only be overcome by refusing to give in to it, and to take it into ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:14 AM

Well said, Kevin.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM

OK, not so much warriors, as using the sword, which Frodo and Sam do. Agreed on the hobbits back in the Shire, but that's where the rural folk good, townies bad attitude comes in. And that's wrong - did anyone see the documentary about Brixton, in which the researcher wandered about for hours and hours waiting for his laptop to be nicked, while all the passing townies gave him excellent advice about looking after it? And it's not until the shire hobbits start sword using that they can deal with Sharkey. Both they, and the Riders, depend more than I imagine the early English actually did on upperclass leadership. A fault also in Homer, I grant. But these weren't things I noticed until the film - I don't know why I missed it in the book - didn't hear the accents, I suppose.
I believe that an early heroic society in which the Theoden/Grima situation occurred would have some heavy politicking going on back stage - the group that wants to replace Theoden, the more loyal group that wants to get rid of Grima - it might not succeed, but someone would have tried. The English (whoever they were, but the society Tolkein based his world on) were made up of individual farmers with responsibilities for personal decisions, and their society had a lot of local talking shops. However lordship was exercised, and was developing, there were opportunities for acting about things that were wrong at the top. The Riders would have been sheep.
And Little Nell reacted to Quilp with more effectiveness than Eowyn did to Grima in the film. I didn't get that feeling from the book. I think it would be more effective if Grima did not look like a poisonous little creep. Evil is insidious - but less so when it comes with a big flashing banner announcing its evilness. Surely it is more effective when it looks like a good - as the ring did to Boromir and the palantir to Denethor?

Taking up the sword feels to me a bit like trying to use the ring - though I'm not sure how else you deal with Shelob! But refusing to give in to evil - and I agree with Kevin on that one doesn't need a sword in the hand.

I omitted mentioning Galadriel - I have never been able to get inside her- she knows too much that is not given in the book, she is too powerful - some interpreters compare her position in Middle Earth with that of Mary in Tolkein's Catholic church life. Not identifiable with. The identifiability with (yrch) of a character depends on what is given of their personality - be it male, female, alien or beast. Me, I'm Eeyore. How can you tell yourself stories about being Galadriel. Rosie Gamgee, maybe.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Nice analysis, Penny. I'd like to point out that Tolkien was also limited by the times and society in which he was writing. The ability to be a strong woman in heroic literature is a recent outcome of the struggle for equality.

As to the use of the sword, Frodo did not use the sword to overcome Sharkey. The hobbits used swords only for defense. They were not warrior figures in the novel. Frodo even gave up his sword to Sam after they crossed into Mordor. When they returned to the Shire they had to use swords to defend themselves and then only as a last resort. They tried to deal with the situation witout bloodshed. In the end Frodo let Sharkey go but it was his abuse of Grima that did Sharkey in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM

Click Here to see proof that Frodo actually failed in his quest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

This is the third attempt to answer you, Naemanson. The first was prevented by the school ISDN timer. The next by my laptop battery, without its usual standby proceeding.

I made a mistake in my last posting - the Riders would NOT have been sheep!

I'll go along with you on the end of LOTR, but can still quibble on the women. True, Tolkein was the inhabitant of a world in which women had a minor place (see Shadowlands), and the product of the Victorian changes in the way women were seen, but even that world knew of heroic women, such as Florence Nightingale and Edith Cavell, (though a Catholic might not have known of the Marys Slessor and Kingsley), and Tolkein would have known of the women saints of his Church who were heroic in alternative ways.

By the time he wrote LOTR, he would have known how the women of London coped with the Blitz (I imagine the women of Rohan more like the people who went down into the Underground or Chiselhirst Caves when they were supposed to be closed and converted them into air-raid shelters).

Leaving aside the heroic women of Homer, Virgil and Malory, Tolkein would have known of historical and semi-historical women in the literature of the period he studied. Aethelflaed of Mercia (yes, I know she led her army) could have knocked spots off the filmic, though not the bookish Eowyn, and there was the historical Brunnhild of the Burgundians. In the sagas, there were plenty of "real" women - such as Freydis, who saw off a bunch of raiding Americans by beating the flat of a sword on her naked breasts! (Not someone I identify with, I should say, but no wimp!)

It is partly his time, and place, but it is also Tolkein himself. I do make allowances, but I don't enjoy the books as much as I did before I noticed the women's absence - and I do have two plastic crates of stuff I haven't read yet!

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM

I always wish he'd brought in a female Dwarf at some point, and maybe even some Entwives. But it's fairly clear that Galadriel carries a lot more authority than her consort.

Interesting pairing of Mary Slessor the missionary, and Mary Kingsley, who couldn't stand missionaries. I doubt very much if being a Catholic would have made Tolkien any less likely to be aware of them. We don't tend to work that way, now or then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

I merely assumed that he wouldn't have been exposed to the Protestant literature I was


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