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BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?

GUEST,Taliesn 25 Nov 02 - 11:37 AM
Bobert 25 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM
DougR 25 Nov 02 - 11:05 AM
Hrothgar 25 Nov 02 - 03:55 AM
DougR 25 Nov 02 - 12:21 AM
Bobert 24 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM
DougR 24 Nov 02 - 06:13 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM
Little Hawk 24 Nov 02 - 01:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM
Bobert 24 Nov 02 - 09:27 AM
Little Hawk 24 Nov 02 - 12:27 AM
DougR 24 Nov 02 - 12:22 AM
DougR 24 Nov 02 - 12:19 AM
Neighmond 23 Nov 02 - 10:42 PM
Little Hawk 23 Nov 02 - 04:34 PM
Bert 23 Nov 02 - 01:11 AM
NicoleC 23 Nov 02 - 12:50 AM
Amos 22 Nov 02 - 10:45 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 02 - 08:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 02 - 06:37 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 22 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM
Neighmond 22 Nov 02 - 04:50 PM
Neighmond 22 Nov 02 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,a neighbor 22 Nov 02 - 04:10 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 02 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 02 - 03:07 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 22 Nov 02 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM
NicoleC 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM
poetlady 22 Nov 02 - 05:51 AM
Hrothgar 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 AM
mack/misophist 22 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 10:15 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 09:52 PM
Amos 21 Nov 02 - 09:37 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 09:33 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM
Neighmond 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM
Bat Goddess 21 Nov 02 - 06:55 PM
YOR 21 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:37 AM

The problem I see , that some obviously have missed so far , is the potential for abuse by "The Party in Power" to use this system to make sure that they "stay" in power . Nixon used domestic intelligence gathering resources to dig up so-called "private" info
( meidacl records ,IRS records,etc ) on what he considered as his *personal* political adversaries.
Question: D'ya think John Pointdexter doesn't have a few folks he'd just love to delivr "paybacks" to since he was convinced he was being *ideologically correct* and sees those that undid what heand dead CIA director Willaim Casey set out to acheive as "unpatriotic".

Gee, d'ya think one can imagine a world where you could be denied a loan, a viable credit history, a job position, a job with said firm entirely ,etc. via "the network" if you were reported , unbeknownst to you, that you were heard to dare to criticize the legacy of Ronald Reagan ; especially after his imminent passing.
To all of those of Right-wing Republican persusion; I *do* harbor a rather striking sense of foreboding for life in a *One Party Federal Government* ( Supreme Court packing is next )
when Reagan is *officially Canonized* and woe be to those who would continue any expression of *free speech* that wpould dare to sully the *official legacy* as the history books are *oficially updated*.

Think it can't happen here.
Thnks to C-Span, I have already seen the unabashed self-avowed Right-wing Reagan-worship advocate ; one Grover Norquist who wont rest until Reagan's likeness is added to nothing less than Mt. Rushmore. Those whom did *not* witness the vehemence with which the Republican-controlled Congress
( 1994-2001 ) fought and won to have Washingtoon National Airport have its name *officially* changed ,by fiat, to Ronald Reagan National Airport . If you did not witness the self-righteous
political posturing of the pro-speeches then you have literally *no* idea what the right-wing of the Republican party will do next once they use their One Part supremacy to then go on to control the Supreme Court.
Expect a lot of Constitutional Admendments promoted which means, if any one of them gins national traction, would cause to convene a Constitutional Convention where *all* proposed amendments would be put on the docket.
Know that without the "balance" of decenting control of atleast one house of Congress the Republican Revolution of Newt Gingrich's Congress attempted several times a Constitutional Admendment for "Prayer in Schools" , "Balanced Budget" requirement *except* during *National Emergencies* like we are in now , " Federal Crime to Burn the american Flag ".

Be vigilant or be afraid, be very afraid. ;-)
Watching 'em like a hawk and comin' out sqawkin'


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM

Well, danged, that's "1" non-terrorist Catter! Any others? Hey, don't be afraid to step up *just* 'cause you own a phone. Owning a phone does not *automatically* make you a terrorist not more than an arsonal in the basement makes you a pacifist...

Or something like that?

Actaully , I'm kinda liking Admiral Poindexter keepin' an eye on my checkbook and sent him an email askin' him to notify me if I my balance got too low since I have free checking if I maintain a certain balance. Yeah, I'm likin' this more and more.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:05 AM

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 03:55 AM

Doug, you're associating with them. That's just as good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:21 AM

Ok, Bobert. I confess. I am NOT a terrorist.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM

Hmmmmmmmm? Let's check on everyone's bank records, telepohone records but if someone wants to buy a couple hundred assault rifles, well, ain't none of our business.

They gonna fight terrorist's or spy on a bunch of folk singers?

Okay, Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ridge, here's what you've been waiting for!!!!

Umm, MY FELLOW CATTERS (sorry to yell...)! Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ridge want to know if any of you people are terrorists. You know, like written a check, or have a telephone. Hey, that basement full of assault rifles and the 40,000 round of ammo don't mean a thing, so don't worry about 'em. But now... ahhh, folks with telephones???? Hmmmm? That's a different story...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 06:13 PM

Arghhhhhhhhh! McGrath! You mean I could be found guilty by association? Arghhhhhhhhhh!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM

For those misguided individuals that stroke the 'big brother' wantabees, Orwell's 1984 is a upotian vision. I'm relatively certain that the phrase "How many fingers am I holding up?" brings a squeemish delight into the control freak's fettish! Those of us that insist on calling it as we see it (four fingers you ninny...), tend to be thought of as traitors by the current inquisition... IMHO, these guys need to make enemies, that they might have any self esteem at all... Why the consistant refusal to encourage ANY seriously peaceful solutions... Spying creates suspicion, and suspicious people sometimes try to justify terrible intrusions... that fit into none of the spiritual teachings I've ever found... ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:35 PM

Maybe everyone will end up on the blacklist. Then we'd finally have achieved a form of human unity on this planet.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

I imagine anyone regularly logging on here will be on the blacklist in any case. Consorting with subversive riff-raff - it doesn't look too good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:27 AM

Come on, Doug, I'm a Ford man. And further more I ain't been "very high" since the 60's.

General Motors... ^$#&*^*^$#*&)*&&%$^$#.... hate Chevys...&^%$%$@&%(&^*$#... danged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:27 AM

Yeah, well, I have it on good authority that DougR is on the CEHC ((Committee to Elect Hilary Clinton (in 2004)). He is simply trying to make conservatives look bad by advancing spurious arguments on their behalf. For heaven's sake, don't blow his cover if you want to see Hilary back in the White House!!!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and one more thing, Bert. Bobert is reported to be a dual agent. He is an executive (very high) at General Motors but is an undercover agent for the CIA. Do not pass that along, however.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:19 AM

Bert: I probably shouldn't let the cat out of the bag, but I have it on pretty good authority (The Guardian) that L. H. is an undercover agent for the FBI. Don't repeat that though, and if you say you got it from me, I'll deny it!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 10:42 PM

Thank you, Sir Thomas for encouragement bold
'tis through jesters and bards that truth be told.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:34 PM

Bert, those are admirable suggestions. I think you are on the right track.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:11 AM

Some FBI agent has been monitoring the Mudcat. Oh Doug I LOVE IT. Lets keep up all our whacky nonsense and see what conclusions they draw from it.

I'm surprised that our crazy Mudcatter Gargoyle hasn't responded to this. He has the best answer, get yourself an alter ego (or many of them). It it's data they want, let's give it to them lots of it, most of it wrong.

When some one asks for your social security number (or any other info), get it wrong. Just one digit will be enough to throw them off. If anyone takes you to task about this. "Ooh, I can never remember numbers, I must have got it wrong".

Make sure that, whatever information you are asked for, at least some of it is wrong. It's difficult enough to keep good records even if the data is correct. If we all strive to make just one little mistake every time then all of their data will become worthless.

And if they ever get a camera in your bedroom, give 'em a good show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 12:50 AM

No, no, Kevin, you have it all wrong. When Arabs or Asians hold people in secret prisons without probable cause, deny them legal counsel, try them by secret military tribunals from which there is no appeal, and keep dossiers on the political activities of their citizens so they can spot dissenters, it's OPPRESSION.

When America does it, it's PROTECTING FREEDOM.

Unless it's Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Israel, in which case it's only a vicious, unsubstantiated rumor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:45 PM

For those of you seeking a more down-to-earth reasonf why the United States prepares itself for war at this time, please see this explanation.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:36 PM

Nice poetry, guys! Poets are usually "subversives" in the eyes of society's watchdogs.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:37 PM

Every step of the way this Bush adninistration seems to be doing precisely what Osama Bin Laden and friends would surely want it to do, eroding the kind of things that make people around the world admire America (rather than just envying it for its wealth), and bringing to the fore all those things that go in the opposite direction.

Remember that movie "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM

Don't be too sorry, whistle a tune
Go for it charley, with eileen aroon
The woods and the meadows make freedom much clearer
Your hilbilly brain is to me so much dearer

The gated soot city, with all it's debris
Has guttered the runoff of dreamier pleas
Which owing to influence all our positions
Such safety for fascists and false inquisitions

Call forth the fighter in freedom uncommon'd
From the strength of the woodlands a wiser man neighmond
For freedom deserts those who will not see forward
In favor of minnions who think when they're ordered

So show us our ways neighmond read us the signs
Stand us right up with your good country twines
Reach into our hearts with encouraging voice
Reminding us all that we still have a choice

And choosing is easy when pushed to the wall
But fighting is harder, long ignoring the call
We stand as united, in strength not assunder
Till corruption and greed turn to gardens of wonder! ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM

Chaz:

You jus' keep them verses comin', bro.

Yir couz,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:50 PM

"Their" should be "they're" in the first stanza.
"as" should be "ask" in the last stanza.

Sorry about that

Chaz


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:46 PM

Take your notes, write in your book
Tell them I said their as dumb as they Look!

I they ask you who said so, shout out with glee:
"'tis Chaz, the hillbilly, and he plans to stay FREE!"

If they ask you "Where is he?" then quickly reply:
"On the back roads and highways, preaching 'LIVE FREE or DIE!'"

If they ask you "what does this hillbilly do?"
Tell them "He's blowing the whistle on YOU!"

"And if you come for him I'll not go a'sitting
But kicking and screaming, and fighting and spitting!"

When they as "In whose name, does he say what he'll say?"
Tell them "In the name of the WHOLE U. S. A.!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,a neighbor
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:10 PM

I just think you all ought to know that I'm taking down everything you say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:04 PM

Yeah, Thomas. Like most great quotes, it can be used either in defence of a great good...or in furtherance of a great evil. This is typical of political rhetoric, and that's why we must look past 30-second sound bites in order to understand what's happening in the world today.

Alas, I don't think the News Media care. They are just entertaining the public in order to sell commercial product, and they are wittingly or unwittingly carrying out Big Brother's propaganda program for him at the same time.

The most desirable state of affairs from the point of view of a military-industrial system is to maintain a constant level of fear, and a constant, but controllable level of combat in distant places with opponents who can't possibly win...but who will provide a convenient "enemy" on which to focus the desired levels of fear. The last thing a military-industrial system wants is the achievement of universal peace, equality, and brotherhood. That would mean the end of them and their System.

That doesn't mean it's impossible...just that they will do almost anything required to prevent it from ever occuring.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:07 PM

My point is that this is the green light for other rulers to follow America's lead.

If it can happen in America, where you've got a tradition of resisting over-mighty givernment, and of having entrenched civil liberties, it can happen anywhere. Very easily in this country. Most places don't even have those protections, which are now turning out to be not worth the paper they are written on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:26 PM

Hi little... seems you went to town with my little quote... ;^)... I'm sad now that I can not recall the person who coined this gem, but I think it was from revolutionary America in the late 1700s... Taken out of context, it could indeed be used to further fascism, but then again, most of the pithy statements that fascists have used were coopted bits of "out of context"...

I do believe that this little quote is meant to inspire people to stay aware of the potential conflicts around them, and keep freedom's fire burning bright. Naturally, when the big liasons get ahold of the "personal empowerment for individual freedom" constructs, there is trouble ahead for the common man/woman... ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

Well, Rev.Bobert , some of us who remember the new National Security "Emergency Powers" plan inspired by the assasination attempt on Reagan AND the rise of MidEast terrorism atlarge written by some whoim were exposed in the Iran/Contra Affair ( Prime architect CIA Dir Willam Casey didn't life to testify ) knew it was comin'. Too tempting to pass up. All that was missing in the 80's was the "digital networking" to carry it out.
Well now Citizen Gate's and Citizen Ballmer's Microsoft have 90% of that network's software and is making substantial headway selling it's "Road Ahead" bill of goods to the Fed Gubment and the Fed's adoption of its OS and future planned eccumenical infrestructure has just been given fresh oxygen.

So are the individualized National Databased tatooed barcodes on the wrist & forehead far off?

Depends how "vigilant " we all bother to be.

Paranoid ?, Nah. This is just standard operating proceedure
when even the appearance of acheiving absolute power " for our own good" comes so close the powers that be can taste it.

Remeber, all that was ever missing was the technology and the oppurtunity. Both have come to pass and now the will to use has just been willingly "voted in ".

They say you don't know what you got till it's gone.
Perhaps Amercia needs the sting of this "Big Chill" to wake it up over what it just willingly gave away.
The problem is, whom will step on their neighbor who speaks out because "I don't want no trouble. Everyone goes along with it and it''s for our collective good so knock it off or so help me I'll turn you in "

Now whom amongst us thinks it "can't happen here"? ;-)

Neither runnin' nor hidin' , but just watching like a hawk ready to sqawk. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

First they came for the Arabs,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not an Arab.

Then they came for the civil rights activists,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a civil rights activist.

Then they came for the Greens.
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Green.

Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

Hrothgar, we have a few legal precendents, none of them very hopeful. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court is made up up very political people. The idea of a lifetime appointment is to allow them the freedon to leave political affiliations behind, buit in reality I think they are too infected by the time they've gone through decades of politics to get there.

So in reality, the Supreme Court rarely challenges the other branches of government directly, even though that's their job.

As to those precendents, Lincoln's secret military courts weren't tossed out as unconstitutional for a long time. The internment of Japanese-Americans
wasn't declared unconstitutional until Dec 1944.

So it works sometimes. But not all of these cases gets to the Supreme Court. And until they are actually used against a person, they can't' be challenged. In 1934, striking textile workers were rounded up by the National Guard and placed in internment camps. Then, of course, there's Operation Garden Plot, which is a blueprint for mass-arrests and joint US-Canadian internment camps for civil dissenters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: poetlady
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:51 AM

As to what Rick Fielding said, I'm sorry to say, you can't rely on the "angry youth." Most of them couldn't name the Vice President, let alone protest. The majority of the other young people I know have no idea in Hades what's going on. Anyway, protest would probably require getting up off their fat, lazy bums.

I'd rather risk getting blown up by terrorists than be watched over my shoulder all the time, if it really came down to that. What's disturbing is that our government is doing this in the name of freedom. They're going against of everything we say we stand for, in the very name of the ideals they're violating.

Not wanting to be monitored has nothing to do with doing anything wrong, quite the contrary. Most Americans aren't the sort of folks who'd commit any terrorist acts, yet the government wants to watch their every move. I think it is a vast waste of money and resources anyway. Finding terrorists this way will be very difficult because of the sheer volume of the information they'll gather. (That doesn't keep it from being an effective way to harass Arab-Americans or even people someone in the government doesn't like.)

As to Hrothgar's question, I think this will cause a lawsuit or two. We'll just have to see what the Supreme Court does with it. I'd like to think it would be ruled unconstitutional. (Of course, I'd like to think that Americans would never even seriously consider taking measures like this in the first place, so I might be entirely incorrect.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 AM

I am only an outside observer of USA legal practice, so I might be wrong here.

Surely this legislation can never survive a Constitutional test in your Supreme Court - even with the current limitatons of that Court?

I am curious to know the attitude of the average policeman to this stuff, given the limitations and conditions on the acceptability of evidence in normal criminal cases.

When they start burning witches, you don't have to be a witch to get burned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM

Under the rules of the Inquisition, a legal denunciation was an anonymous letter nailed to a church door. Sound familiar?


The greatest of all freedoms any citizen of any country may claim is the freedom to be left alone. Once upon a time we had that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM

"Eternal vigillance is the true cost of freedom" (Thomas the Rhymer quoted that above)

Yes... OR... "Eternal vigilance is the true indication of paranoia, fear, and hatred."

Either statement could be equally apt...depending on what one is being vigilant about, how one is applying one's vigilance, upon whom one is applying it, and in what manner, and upon what justification.

The Nazis were eternally vigilant. So was Stalin. So is Israel. So is Al-Queda. So is Saddam. So is the CIA. So was the KGB. So was Al Capone. In other words, eternal vigilance can also be seen as the true measure of dictatorship, oppression, crimial behaviour and/or madness.

My, aren't they an agreeable bunch, these eternally vigilant people?

Imagine the fun involved in living under the rule of the eternally vigilant. Gotta love it, eh? I'm glad I'm in Canada, where we are still only mildly vigilant...and yes, if Al Queda bombs Toronto, I will STILL be glad I am in Canada where we are only mildly vigilant, and I hope we will never descend to the incredible fear-mongering I see happening south of the border. Our PM is making the usual noises about Canada's next military contribution to the next multi-national folly, but that's just cos he knows who funds the corporations who fund the political parties who fund guys like him.

BTW, I have always been a mildly vigilant person. This has made me harmless and likeable, and kept me young.

The eternally vigilant are usually a curse upon their neighbours both near and far in this ever smaller world we live in, because they have never considered remedying the essential and original problems...human disunity and inequality of opportunity. The eternally vigilant in my school were the bullies...

The human race is one family. A family that doesn't share the basics equally amongst themeselves is dysfunctional and unjust. There will be further conflict and bloodshed until that is addressed realistically, which it hasn't been, thus far.

All those shedding the blood (the "vigilant") will believe they are doing it on behalf of a suffering humanity. They see themselves as holy warriors. All of them. Even those who claim to be atheists. Makes no difference what they call themselves...they are all, on a conscious level, "defending" what they consider holy, just, and true in their own terms. Every attacker believes he is defending what is right.

Better then, to focus not on what is "right" or "wrong" (subjective value judgements) but on what is beneficial to all concerned: To live and let live.

The only game worth playing, in the end, is a game in which everyone wins. Try telling that to a competitive society...which has founded itself on the very principles of disunity and survival of the "fittest" (meaning: the rich, the well-armed, and the most ruthless).

I've always been into aiming for perfection...never been into competition. I compete with my own past performance, and that's it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:15 PM

Gee, I don't know, Bobert. From reports I'm hearing on television, President Bush is getting a pretty good reception over there in the old country, and even Germany seems to be softening it's criticizm of (I never can remember how you refer to him) Bushie? Lots of countries seem more inclined to line up with ?Bushie, and his reputation (among your friends) as being totally a country bumpkin might be fading into the West (other than with your friends who will never reverse their opinion).

Other than that, is it getting cold in West Virginia? We are getting the kind of weather in Arizona that almost makes it worthwhile living here in the summers.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM

I'm half way there, Doug, and have pointed out many times in the past that the US has done an excellent job in creatin' plenty of folks in the terorists sign up lines and now that your guy says, "Awww, heck with it. We might have created some of these folks but no matter, we're gonna get 'em!" he turns his attention to other wars while this one he's loosing.

Yeah, he catches *someone* today who is somewhere between a *no body* and a *big Al Queda Cheeze" (who knows, he wasn't on the big ol' top 20 picture list...) but for the most part, the US is loosing not only Afganistan to the warloards but the "War on Terrorism" to Republican politics...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:52 PM

Bobert sez, "America is in a battle for it's life." Now that I agree with, Bobert, but the enemy is terrorism, not our government. I will proceed to duck at this point because I'm sure all of you who who see the Homeland Security Act as an invasion on your personal liberties will not agree with my POV.

McGrath: you're being mighty vocal about a law that doesn't affect the United Kingdom. Did I miss something. or did Tony Blair push through a similar act in the UK?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:37 PM

Wow....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:33 PM

Yes, well said, fir a fellow hillbilly that is. And, yes, Amercia is in the battle of it's life because it is very much at war with its own. Unlike the 60's, this is some very serious stuff going down that makes the 60's look like a friendly argument between two old friends. Democracy was never at stake but is now. Freedom? Liberty! Expression of thought?

Orwell's America has arrived and America will *never* again be the same. Melodrama? Nah, just reality.

BUT just fir good measure, this ol' hillbilly ain't got no quit and I'll be in D.C. at least being counted as one who wouldn't go quietly. And I hope many of you will, also...

Resist

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM

Nicely said Neighmond, very well spoken indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Sad as it is, i think the time for free speech is nearly over.
Sad as it is, i think the time of our fathers is long past. There is no Unity in the United States. Class division, ethenic and racial devision, gender devision, the list goes on.

We all remember the old man who, calling his sons to his bedside, bade them each bring along a stick. As we all know, the bundled sticks would not break under all the might they mustered. Alone the sticks broke with ease.

Would we all gather together to defeat a common foe, be they foriegn or domestic?

I think the time has come to decide, and that right quick.


Please overlook the spelling errors, and hear the hillbilly out-


Cry the nation!
For the flower of the past
Doth wilt in the wake of thy whithering blast!

Our foundation's crumbled,
Our pinnings are gone
Consumed in the fire of an unholy dawn

"The new ways are better"
is the cry of the realm
"And a fearless new leader hath taken the helm!"

He'll roust out the devils
wherever they be
Suffer the witches! He's coming for thee!

He'll search in the valleys
he'll scour the flats
The mountains and seaside, and airwaves, at that!

They know what you purchase
They know what you sell
They know who is going to heaven, and hell.

They'll know what your taking
And what's left at honme
Check, sir? or Credit? A government loan?

And what doth they do
With the things they discover
Why they put them in files, where they might help uncover

Uncover, discover
Divulge and bring light to
The larsoneous schemes Johnny Public hath been up to!

Do you really not know?
MUST I explain?
If We've freedom to lose, we've nothing to gain!

Don't pine for the past
Don't weep for what's done
Another era's newly begun!

Thus into the darkness
Let us ride unmolested
Tho'our ranks be assailed, our cause be contested

Let us rise up to greet them
Let us show them our might
Let us gather united, let us rear up and fight!

If we must die in battle
Then let it be done
That we leave a FREE COUNTRY to those yet to come!

And if we fall fighting
Our freedoms to save
We'd not live to enjoy it, our reward is the grave.

And the grave so lonely
as cold as the clay
Is better than living in fear every day!

And if we go meekly
Hoping others will fight
We'll be waiting forever, relief not in sight.

"They won't bother ME"
Is the cowards' cry
"There are all of these others that are far worse than I!"

When the voices are stilled
That once were so plenty
and they work their way down to the least of the many,

And what will you do
O citizen abiding?
Will you come up a'blazing or go into hiding?

Let us not bring ourselves
To that sad ruination
But rise up united and take back our nation!

For a body united
Is a force undefiable
and a coutry devided is unreconsilable.

When we show them our might
And force unrelenting
Their wickedness and greed they'll soon be repenting

Send word to the capitol!
Send word to D.C.
We'll all stand TOGETHER to keep AMERICA FREE


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Here's the link to the various versions of the bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM

Rats, I can't find it now. I knew I shoulda quoted it in the first place.

Sorry, can't link diretly to the bill. But if someone wants a little light reading for the evening, the text of the bill is at www.senate.gov
Go to Legislation & Records
Do a search By Number for "HR05005"
It'll pull up 5 listings. There's the Senate version, H.R.5005.EAS
and the House version, H.R.5005.EAH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM

So it's all right if America does it - but if this kind of stuff happened in Cuba, for example, I imagine it'd be denounced as an example of intolerable tyranny. And that's what it would be.

But who could take seriously that kind of criticism from the USA now? They've given the green light to a new level of Governmental intrusion everywhere. All in the name of defending freedom.

It appears that George Orwell correctly anticipated the three slogans of Big Brother's regime:

"...WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM

Well, danged, Linn! Me and the Wes Ginny slide rule can't figure out that heady Jefferson stuff.

Just one other aspect of the bill I heard something about which I also don't understand. Here, it's perfectly okay fir me to turn my neigbor in but now if you are considerin' becomin' a "whistle blower" against a corporation or guv-ment agency, ya better think twice 'cause there's some anti "whistle blowers" parts to the bill.

Nicole: You heard anything about the details on this?

I mean, if this is indeed part of the bill, this alone sends a purdy scarey message.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:55 PM

"I regret for my country when I reflect that God is just." -- (Thomas Jefferson)

It's come to this again.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: YOR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM

Charles Mackey's book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" needs a new chapter. This agency would provide some great material, just by being themselves. Many G Brats are going to get mighty fat heads. Self Pride! Priceless!

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM

Nicole: you gonna set up a camera in MY bedroom? Have at it but you're going to be sorely disappointed in the results. A pure waste of film.

Be good. Be nice. Don't terrorize. You'll be alright.

DougR


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