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BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?

Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM
mack/misophist 21 Nov 02 - 11:15 AM
Mrrzy 21 Nov 02 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 21 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM
MMario 21 Nov 02 - 11:34 AM
katlaughing 21 Nov 02 - 11:36 AM
Amos 21 Nov 02 - 11:48 AM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 12:05 PM
Mrrzy 21 Nov 02 - 12:19 PM
Rick Fielding 21 Nov 02 - 12:22 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 12:27 PM
MMario 21 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM
Big Tim 21 Nov 02 - 12:35 PM
Don Firth 21 Nov 02 - 12:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM
YOR 21 Nov 02 - 12:55 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 12:56 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM
Bill D 21 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM
Don Firth 21 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 02:01 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 02:51 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Nov 02 - 02:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 03:10 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM
Bill D 21 Nov 02 - 03:20 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 03:28 PM
Amos 21 Nov 02 - 03:31 PM
Amos 21 Nov 02 - 03:52 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 04:02 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Nov 02 - 05:01 PM
Don Firth 21 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM
YOR 21 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM
Bat Goddess 21 Nov 02 - 06:55 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM
NicoleC 21 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM
Neighmond 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 21 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 09:33 PM
Amos 21 Nov 02 - 09:37 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 09:52 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM
DougR 21 Nov 02 - 10:15 PM
Little Hawk 21 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM
mack/misophist 22 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM
Hrothgar 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 AM
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Subject: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM

So now we have this Homeland Security legislation that few Senators will admit to knowing much about other than voting against it would have cast them at traitors and demons, but now it's time to see what we're getting for our tax bucks.

Okay, for the *working class* here's a short list of things that Big Brother is going to know about you:

1. Every time you pick up the phone
2. Every transaction you make with a credit card
3. Some taped pay phone conversations
4. Every check you write
5. Every website you visit
6. Every car you own
7. Every gun purchase you make
8. Every dollar you give to a charity or politacl party paid with a check or credit card
9. Every time you use a toll bridge or toll road
10. Every time you pay for any permit, be it a hunting or fishing license.

And now guess who Junior has tapped for the job? Well, Johnny Poindexter, who lied to Congress and broke laws brokering guns deals in the Iran/Contra Scandle, that's who!

Now, what did Boss Hog and his henchmen get? Well, lets see;

1. Retroactive protection from law suits.
2. Big breaks for the drug companies, who incidently were big players in the recent election where 80% of their contributions went to the Repubs.
3. Limitations of the Freedom of Information Act that gives the working class access to infomation about those dirt little closed meetings of folks who are paid from our tax bucks, like Cheney's *insider* Energy Policy discussions.
4. Busting up collective bargaining be federal workers, which will bring about *out sourcing* and *privavtization* which are Boss Hogs way of getting cheap labor that he has no *responsibilty* for fair compensation.
5. A major shift or power into the Executive Branch that would make ol' Tom Jefferson roll over in his grave.

Yeah, these are just for starters. In the coming days, as the smoke clears, we'll see how much of *democracy* is left standing and just how far back the working man got his butt kicked.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:15 AM

Naturally I know nothing about it. However, ways of dealing with many of these outrages have been around since the 60's and before. I would remind everyone of some of the things Jefferson said, but ot's probably illegal now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:22 AM

"What would Jefferson do?"

Although I have to admit, having grown up in a non-US society, that I don't get the big deal over privacy. Why shouldn't the gubmint know anytime anybody acquires a deadly weapon? Wouldn't we all be safer if they did? What does it matter if they know where you're driving on what toll roads? As long as you don't have a kidnap victim in your car, that is... so what if they know I hang out at the Mudcat? As long as I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care who knows what I'm doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM

"If you're not doing anything wrong, you have no reason to mind the constant surveillance." In some ways, it's a hard argument to counter -- I want to be free to break the law? But the intuitive response is the right one: it tends to put a damper on free discourse, to encourage self-censorship and a watch-your-ass mentality, which are thoroughly inimical to democracy. As Mrrzy's post suggests, it's not an all-or-nothing proposition: there's a world of difference in the privacy-vs.-public good tradeoff between recording the purchase of deadly weapons and tracking your every move and transaction. But maybe it'll be a shot in the arm for live, face-to-face, unrecorded events.

Adam


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:34 AM

I have always assumed that any purchase by check or credit card could be traced, ditto phone conversations; web surfing, etc.

I think donations to charity and political parties (especially political parties) SHOULD be tracked.

As far as knowing which toll bridges and toll roads I travel - unless I was in disguise, I would have to assume my being there is/was a matter of "public record" since it occurred in public.

If licenses and permits can't be tracked, how do they know which ones are valid?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:36 AM

It has to do with WHO decides whether what you do is wrong or not, Mrrzy. You might think of it as nothing, but Mr. Paranoia, i.e. some wanker in the government might be suspicious enough to say otherwise. Given enough time, s/he'll be able to twist "evidence" any way they like and we will have given it to them by not protesting and logging our opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:48 AM

THis is one of those subtle issues, as pointed out above that is less obvious in the details. It is true that individual instances of being observed are not usually a problem to honest people.

However, the principle of being observed because you choose to act publically but ARE NOT REQUIRED to is really much more far-reaching.

For one thing, the observation is onlyu one hand on a two-handed throttle hold. The OTHER hand is mass compliace and agreement with direction from above, which is a far uglier thing, in politics. It is fine to be scrutinized as long as you agree with all the whims of the centralized powers.

But to DIS_AGREE requires free dialogue, freedom from fear, freedom from interference with open discourse, and a right to conduct ones legal affairs publically or privately as a free choice.

This is not just a matter of "I'm not doing anything wrong so I don't care who watches".

It is a much more important matter of the constraints of power. We aren't monarchists over here, or didn't used to be anyway, and empowering the central government to essentially spy on citizens is anathema to the Jefferson/Paine/Adams legacy that some of us were taught to consider an ideal for free men and women.

I spit. I spit because those who have taken over the quarterdeck, by chicanery, are now selling the ship into servitude by waving the flag of terror. I spit because the man at the helm is a commercial fascist. Most of all I spit because this turn of events is a clarion call for the forces of stupidity and barbarism to introduce a new Dark Age in the history of the greatest experiment ever begun by human beings. THis is a New Milestone for the Progress of Ignorance!!
All it took was buying a few judges. What a bright idea -- from a very short-term, self-serving, criminally-inclined viewpoint. What a tragic pollution for ther river of human history to be burdened with.

I spit twice.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:05 PM

Speaking of paranoia.

Bobert, I have it on pretty good authority that the first person whose line will be tapped in West Virginia is yours. Some FBI agent has been monitoring the Mudcat (at least that's what I have heard). Maybe you better get on a party line like we use to have, and then they won't be able to tell who is talking! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:19 PM

And since half the sex acts most people enjoy are illegal in many states, if they ARE going to be watching us, they better de-criminalize a whole lotta stuff!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:22 PM

When something simply becomes too bizarre to comprehend, I always go back to the writings of my guru, Quentin Crisp....who (especially because of Michael Jackson's recent antics) is starting to look VERRRY normal!)

Quentin expected EVERYONE who has power to use it to the fullest. Even back thirty years ago he invisioned Big Brother in America checking up on everybody. His advice? "If the Government insists on watching you in "the loo", learn to urinate with style! He added that "It'll be nice to know that MR. Carter CARES!" Well, so does Mr. Bush.

Is it inevitable? Well I can't see the vast middle (and lower middle class) rising up in a major and violent protest, can you? It'll still only be the "angry youth" and life-long activists out there makin' noise.

Remember the day after 9/11, when we were sayin' "Things will NEVER be the same again" Well, they won't.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:27 PM

Ah, yes, of course, the "P" word comes up.

Personally, the fact that this idea is the brainchild of John Poindexter is cause enough to be paranoid. This is a man who lied to Congress and (if you believe his story), lie to the President he was sworn to serve. Now we must take HIS word that he's only going to listen to terrorists?

The fact that it's called "Total Information Awareness" is scary enough. It's not the data they are telling us they will collect that's the concern -- it's the freedom they've just been given to collect ANY information about you, compile it in a large database that may of may not be secure to hackers and internal spies, and USE that data any way they see fit.

What is literally happening here is that the government is declaring every American to be a suspect. There is no probable cause anymore, no judicial oversight to ensure that you are reasonably likely of having committed a crime. In other words, we must live in fear of our government.

From a report by Fox News:
"When it's ready, Aldridge said individual privacy rights will be protected. But he could not explain how the data would be accessed. In some cases, specific warrants would give law enforcement agencies access, he said. But in other cases the database might flag suspicious activity absent a specific request or warrant, and that suspicious activity could well be relayed to law enforcement or intelligence agencies."

Now, what was I saying the other day about developing procedures to assign risks factors to individuals, and automatically flagging those individuals for survellience or interrogation?

I know you think of government as a big benevolent puppy that wouldn't do a thing to harm it's citizens, Doug, but history doesn't bear that impression out. Given power, government will use it. Given enough power, government will abuse it.

Illuminati conspiracy theorists must be doing cartwheels. The logo for the Information Awareness Office is an illuminated eye on top of a pyramid. Ha!

An ex of mine was the son of a prominent journalist during the Red Scare. Said journalist was one of the first men to do government exposes, and as such, was a suspected communists. My ex grew up under constant survellience by intelligence agencies. He used to joke about all of his pubescent telephone conversations being stored in an FBI basement on tape, and always wanted to know if the agents were routing for him or just bored when he was 15 and trying to convince a girl to sleep with him. Well, it was supposed to be a joke, but the man would hardly blink in public, let alone dance or sing or laugh -- habits earned from childhood.

Is that what you want your kids to remember from their childhood? That someone is watching them all the time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM

Ever grow up in a small town? Hate to tell you - when I was growing up - someone WAS watching all the time - and reporting. everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:35 PM

"Maggie comes fleet foot,
face full of black soot,
talkin that the heat put,
plants in the bed but,                                          phone's tapped anyway,
Maggie says that many say,                                        must bust in early May,
order from the DA,                                                 look out kid...

Bob Dylan, "Subterreanean Homesick Blues", 1966.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:37 PM

How soon we forget.

Mrrzy, ask some of the people who were around in the early Fifties. Much of what HUAC and associated agencies such as the FBI were doing was illegal, violating may established statutes, and completely ignoring the Bill of Rights. Now, it's legal. And who gives a damn about the Bill of Rights anymore? It's been a pain in the ass to the government all along.

Ostensibly, the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security legislation are aimed at combating terrorists. But laws of this sort are like hammers. Hammers are for hitting nails. But--if I had a hammer (how's that for a musical connection?), I could use it to hit all kinds of things besides nails. And there's the old adage that to someone with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Like, say, anyone who questions or criticizes the administration. And laws like this, once passed, don't go away very easily.

Now Doug would say (did say on another thread) "It'll never happen, folks." But it already has, and it can again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM

And I gather if you try using cash for some transactions (like renting a car) that is seen as extremely suspicious in itself. I think it can't be too long and cash transactions generally will cease to be legal, and it'll all be done through hyped up credit cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM

Nicole: play fair now: when did I say, "government is a benevolent puppy that wouldn't do a thing to harm it's citizens?"

Don: yes, I did say that, and I believe that a lot of folks are exhibiting a large dose of paranoia.

As Rick said earlier, things have changed since 9/11 (or words to that effect). Things will never be the same as they were, and yes, in order to effectively fight terrorism, we may have to sacrifice liberties that we have always enjoyed prior to 9/11. The terrorists are aware of those liberties, and do you for a minute think they will not use them to further their own cause? Operating manuals have been found instructing terrorists how to take advantage of our free society's laws in order to do just that.

I hope the government uses its new powers wisely. There will be instances when it does not I'm sure. I will not condone government's actions when they do not. I am not going to live in fear, though, because I am afraid the government is going to place me under survellience, or tap my phone lines or install cameras in my bedroom. My enemy is the terrorists, not my government.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: YOR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:55 PM

The FBI is watching Mudcat, good they might learn something, about damn time. Can't catch a spy in their own building until its years too late, CIA too. And No I didn't watch that stupid movie.

I have several old friends that work in unmentionable government agencies. I have asked each of them the same basic question over the years. "Do the people you work for think straight, are they quote 'normal'. All of them have had the same reply, Oh No, not at all!

Yeah I feel sooo much safer with this new HUGE government agency. They won't know right from left or right from wrong.

But the king is always correct!

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:56 PM

A slight aside, since we don't have a current "Iraq" thread and I don't want to resurrect the gargantuan one.

Dr. Richard Perle told British MP's yesterday that even a clean bill of health from the weapons inspection team would not prevent a war.

"Suppose we are able to find someone who has been involved in the development of weapons and he says there are stores of nerve agents. But you cannot find them because they are so well hidden.

"Do you actually have to take possession of the nerve agents to convince? We are not dealing with a situation where you can expect co-operation."

I other words, ONE person says that the WMD exist, and we go to war with Iraq. Even if there's no evidence.

Do ya think they won't be able to find a single disgruntled Iraqi to prop up this claim? After all, it only took a Kuwait ambassador's daughter posing as a nurse to use the incubator baby lie to go to war last time.

My head hurts. Any houses for sale on your block, Little Hawk? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

It wasn't a quote Doug, it was an impression gleaned from months of your stating that the government would NEVER do _______________.

The government does. Every chance they get away with it. They are the dog prowling around the henhouse to chase away foxes, and the farmers (that's us) need to keep an eye out that the dog doesn't decide chicken tastes better than dog kibble.

And sorry, but I don't think that giving up freedom is a suitable way to protect it. I think giving up freedom is just that. What's that rationale, exactly -- if we stop being a free society, we'll be just like the countries those terrorists come from and they won't want to change us anymore?

Ironic, isn't it, that those who claim to love America and what it stands for are so happy to undermine the very thing that makes America what it is?

Is the government my enemy? It is when it behaves contrary to the diagram of our government, the US Constitution. I'd say this qualifies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM

If the White House 'plumbers' during the Nixon era had had access to computerized records of the sort Poindexter is about to acquire, what DO you suppose they might have done with them?

Power has always tended to corrupt, and the more one's basic philosophy leans toward a narrow, conservative concept of morality, control and spying "for the protectiong of FREEDOM", the closer one comes to the hypothetical 'cameras in the bedroom'.

I'm not sure it hasn't passed the point of no return already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM

The problem, Doug, is that it is not we who are paranoid, it's the government. That's what led to the Communist witch hunts. Witch hunting wasn't legal then. It is legal now.

When it comes to witch hunts, anybody could be considered a witch. Even you. All it takes is an accusation. And even if you're proven innocent (and under these circumstances, you're guilty until proven innocent), the stigma is there forever. Like I say. Ask someone who went through it in the Fifties.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:01 PM

Yep, it's a lot easier to get your name on a list, than to get it off the list.

"Geee, Mr. Smith, we're real sorry that you're name is ,on the list instead of the *other* Mr. Smith. If you'll just fill out this 9 page affidavit, have it notorized and get it back to us we'll see if we can't get you're name purged. Oh, we'll need the original and three copies, a certified copy of your birth certificate, names and phone numbers of all your neighbors and employers for the last 25 yeras and you'll need to be available during *our* working hours at our closest appeals office of Homeland Security Center, which just happens to be in, ahhhh, let me see, yes in Philadelphia for your hearing. Now here isa list of hotels in the area with driving instructions. And you might want to bring an, attorney (Ka-ching...)"

Hmmmmmmm? Ya say a bunch of laywers wrote this legislation?

Oh, I get it now...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:51 PM

Hmmm. Been digging through finding more details again today. Do you realize that even though TIPS is prohibitted, the new act allows private citizens to spy on other private citizens the same way without fear of prosecution if the new Dept (not a judge, the Dept) decides their intentions were conducted "in the national interest?"

In other words, I can set up cameras in Doug's house, record all of his coversations and computer activity -- and all I have to do is claim that I thought Doug was a terrorist. Honest.

In the words of Doug Thompson (Capital Hill BLue) today:
"This new Department of Homeland Security has the power to wiretap any American it wants, without a court order, without cause and without justification to any higher authority. Homeland Security goon squads will have the power to enter any American home, without a search warrant, without probable cause, simply because someone somewhere says "hey, this guy might be a threat." No checks and balances, no due process. Nothing. ...

"Under the new law, an agent of the Department of Homeland Security can walk into your bank, flash a badge and demand to see your checking and saving account records. No court order. All they need is the "presumption of guilt." They can stop you in your car without cause and search it and you. They can hold you in jail for 30 days or more without filing any charges or allowing you to make any phone calls. ...

"Again, the process only requires an internal administrative review and not the involvement of any independent judicial authority," says retired judge Macklin. "It violates all previous standards for due process and probable cause."

In other words, they can do any damn thing they want and there isn't a thing that any of us can do about it. "

He also included a quote, "An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation," the leader of another country once wrote. "We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland."

That was Adolph Hitler writing about the creation of the Gestapo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:53 PM

Yeh, well...

It's sounding a lot like paranoia to me right about now. All these symptoms of a bigger problem we all are facing...

We don't trust our Government... or relish the cheering of lawyers...

Does this bother you? I drives me nuts to think that so many of the really well researched amoung us are so prone to paranoid preachings, while the rest just toe the fashionable political line.

Where is the "representitive government" that 'serves' the American public? How is this sheepish paranoia going to create an equitable and moral system of profitable peacetime jurisprudence? hmmmmmmmm? ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:10 PM

The really sickening thing is to imagine how this system and this tevchnology is going to mean in some countries. We've always talked about "totalitarian" regimes but it's been an exaggeration. Hitler never had this level of control. Now it's going to be the real thing.

1984 at last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

Darned good question, ttr. Yeah, "where is the "representative government'"? Well, fir starters it ain't in the White House and if ya' couple that *fact* with what the *imposters* are trying to do to the folks who over whelminly DID NOT vote for them in the first place, then I think a good case or paranoia is a good thing to have.

Pompous Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:20 PM

didja ever stop to think that, if things had gone slightly differently, Spiro Agnew could have been president in 1984?

Watching John Ashcroft + George Bush + Trent Lott and several others beginning their efforts to transform the very fabric of how this government operates gives me cold chills!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:28 PM

Don't worry about a thing, Bill. Trent Bushcroft will be visitin' ya' any day now with a little heat of their own to melt those chills of yours. Just be patient.

Now get back to the lathe...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:31 PM

an equitable and moral system of profitable peacetime jurisprudence?

Dear Thomas the RHymer, the question's absurd,
Outré and passé, like a quaint Dodo bird!
Morality, equity, even ideals
Are lost in the windstorm, 'til the public mind reels!

Due process, farewell! Bill O' Rights, fond adieu!
Consitutional balance, we're coming for you!
We don't want misgivings, or calls of "psychotic!",
And we'll lock up the skeptics as unpatriotic!

A nation of law? Where freedom is certain?
An ingenue's dream, say those back of the curtain.
We don't need no morals! We're hunting for terror!
And we'll find it, or make up our own, make no error.

So put away whining, depraved, base, and tearful!
It's the Land of the Slave, and the Home of the Fearful!

Thomas J. Seuss
2002


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:52 PM

Ya know, back in my day it was a popular liberal educational theme to emphasize the battle for personal rights and freedoms that prompted men to leave their jobs and go fight the British at Bunker Hill, Breed's Hill, Lexington, and on down the East Coast to Monmouth and finally Yorktown.

What was emphasized in my sleepy little education was that there were many men who died from Hessian lead and British cannon, and who took the risk of doing so because the notion of freedom was compelling; this is the idealism that fueled the most liberal principles in the Bill of Rights, without which the various States could not agree on a basis for federation.

Remember that? I remember being very happy that this passage was made, this battle essentially won, so far back, and believed I could see the benefits of this legacy at work all around me.

Looking back today, I can see I was naive, and can only plead youthful idealism. It turns out that the jaded realpolitik and the meat-head cynics, and the militaristic authoritarians, were not subdued, neither there nor at Normandy and Leningrad.

Where is Admiral de Grasse when you need him???*

I am seriously losing patience with these assholes.


A


The French Admiral who sailed up from Haiti with 28 French warships in September, 1781, and blockaded the James River and the Chesapeake Bay, preventing any British escape from Yorktown, and guaranteeing Cornwallis' capitulation in early October.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:02 PM

Another big legacy of that war was that many of the mercenaries and foot soldiers "missed" their transports back. They, apparently, thought this freedom thing was an interesting experiment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:01 PM

Amos you're a treasure!

Amos, come off it, and get with the program
Negga self righteous in swiming the flim flam
You write off the goodness, embracing cold fear
And call to all comers "we're kissing their rear!"

Have faith my good man in the rebel inside us
Who a slumbering now, will awaken and ride us
But only when many can feel the constraints
Leading democracies leads to complaints

Hoist up the flags and give freedom a call
We'll join you when most of us live in a stall
In fearing the worst and then casting such blame
Your reason's preceeding the source of our shame...ttr

Eternal vigillance is the true cost of freedom


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

Once again the question comes up: who is a conservative these days? I always thought a conservative was, by definition, someone who wanted to preserve what we have (had).

Question: since our political leaders, when elected to federal office (e.g., the President, et al), take an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution, it seems to me that there are grounds here to impeach the whole bloody lot!

(Naw! It'll never happen. . . . )

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM

Nicole: you gonna set up a camera in MY bedroom? Have at it but you're going to be sorely disappointed in the results. A pure waste of film.

Be good. Be nice. Don't terrorize. You'll be alright.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: YOR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM

Charles Mackey's book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" needs a new chapter. This agency would provide some great material, just by being themselves. Many G Brats are going to get mighty fat heads. Self Pride! Priceless!

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:55 PM

"I regret for my country when I reflect that God is just." -- (Thomas Jefferson)

It's come to this again.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM

Well, danged, Linn! Me and the Wes Ginny slide rule can't figure out that heady Jefferson stuff.

Just one other aspect of the bill I heard something about which I also don't understand. Here, it's perfectly okay fir me to turn my neigbor in but now if you are considerin' becomin' a "whistle blower" against a corporation or guv-ment agency, ya better think twice 'cause there's some anti "whistle blowers" parts to the bill.

Nicole: You heard anything about the details on this?

I mean, if this is indeed part of the bill, this alone sends a purdy scarey message.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM

So it's all right if America does it - but if this kind of stuff happened in Cuba, for example, I imagine it'd be denounced as an example of intolerable tyranny. And that's what it would be.

But who could take seriously that kind of criticism from the USA now? They've given the green light to a new level of Governmental intrusion everywhere. All in the name of defending freedom.

It appears that George Orwell correctly anticipated the three slogans of Big Brother's regime:

"...WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM

Rats, I can't find it now. I knew I shoulda quoted it in the first place.

Sorry, can't link diretly to the bill. But if someone wants a little light reading for the evening, the text of the bill is at www.senate.gov
Go to Legislation & Records
Do a search By Number for "HR05005"
It'll pull up 5 listings. There's the Senate version, H.R.5005.EAS
and the House version, H.R.5005.EAH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Here's the link to the various versions of the bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Sad as it is, i think the time for free speech is nearly over.
Sad as it is, i think the time of our fathers is long past. There is no Unity in the United States. Class division, ethenic and racial devision, gender devision, the list goes on.

We all remember the old man who, calling his sons to his bedside, bade them each bring along a stick. As we all know, the bundled sticks would not break under all the might they mustered. Alone the sticks broke with ease.

Would we all gather together to defeat a common foe, be they foriegn or domestic?

I think the time has come to decide, and that right quick.


Please overlook the spelling errors, and hear the hillbilly out-


Cry the nation!
For the flower of the past
Doth wilt in the wake of thy whithering blast!

Our foundation's crumbled,
Our pinnings are gone
Consumed in the fire of an unholy dawn

"The new ways are better"
is the cry of the realm
"And a fearless new leader hath taken the helm!"

He'll roust out the devils
wherever they be
Suffer the witches! He's coming for thee!

He'll search in the valleys
he'll scour the flats
The mountains and seaside, and airwaves, at that!

They know what you purchase
They know what you sell
They know who is going to heaven, and hell.

They'll know what your taking
And what's left at honme
Check, sir? or Credit? A government loan?

And what doth they do
With the things they discover
Why they put them in files, where they might help uncover

Uncover, discover
Divulge and bring light to
The larsoneous schemes Johnny Public hath been up to!

Do you really not know?
MUST I explain?
If We've freedom to lose, we've nothing to gain!

Don't pine for the past
Don't weep for what's done
Another era's newly begun!

Thus into the darkness
Let us ride unmolested
Tho'our ranks be assailed, our cause be contested

Let us rise up to greet them
Let us show them our might
Let us gather united, let us rear up and fight!

If we must die in battle
Then let it be done
That we leave a FREE COUNTRY to those yet to come!

And if we fall fighting
Our freedoms to save
We'd not live to enjoy it, our reward is the grave.

And the grave so lonely
as cold as the clay
Is better than living in fear every day!

And if we go meekly
Hoping others will fight
We'll be waiting forever, relief not in sight.

"They won't bother ME"
Is the cowards' cry
"There are all of these others that are far worse than I!"

When the voices are stilled
That once were so plenty
and they work their way down to the least of the many,

And what will you do
O citizen abiding?
Will you come up a'blazing or go into hiding?

Let us not bring ourselves
To that sad ruination
But rise up united and take back our nation!

For a body united
Is a force undefiable
and a coutry devided is unreconsilable.

When we show them our might
And force unrelenting
Their wickedness and greed they'll soon be repenting

Send word to the capitol!
Send word to D.C.
We'll all stand TOGETHER to keep AMERICA FREE


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM

Nicely said Neighmond, very well spoken indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:33 PM

Yes, well said, fir a fellow hillbilly that is. And, yes, Amercia is in the battle of it's life because it is very much at war with its own. Unlike the 60's, this is some very serious stuff going down that makes the 60's look like a friendly argument between two old friends. Democracy was never at stake but is now. Freedom? Liberty! Expression of thought?

Orwell's America has arrived and America will *never* again be the same. Melodrama? Nah, just reality.

BUT just fir good measure, this ol' hillbilly ain't got no quit and I'll be in D.C. at least being counted as one who wouldn't go quietly. And I hope many of you will, also...

Resist

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:37 PM

Wow....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:52 PM

Bobert sez, "America is in a battle for it's life." Now that I agree with, Bobert, but the enemy is terrorism, not our government. I will proceed to duck at this point because I'm sure all of you who who see the Homeland Security Act as an invasion on your personal liberties will not agree with my POV.

McGrath: you're being mighty vocal about a law that doesn't affect the United Kingdom. Did I miss something. or did Tony Blair push through a similar act in the UK?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM

I'm half way there, Doug, and have pointed out many times in the past that the US has done an excellent job in creatin' plenty of folks in the terorists sign up lines and now that your guy says, "Awww, heck with it. We might have created some of these folks but no matter, we're gonna get 'em!" he turns his attention to other wars while this one he's loosing.

Yeah, he catches *someone* today who is somewhere between a *no body* and a *big Al Queda Cheeze" (who knows, he wasn't on the big ol' top 20 picture list...) but for the most part, the US is loosing not only Afganistan to the warloards but the "War on Terrorism" to Republican politics...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:15 PM

Gee, I don't know, Bobert. From reports I'm hearing on television, President Bush is getting a pretty good reception over there in the old country, and even Germany seems to be softening it's criticizm of (I never can remember how you refer to him) Bushie? Lots of countries seem more inclined to line up with ?Bushie, and his reputation (among your friends) as being totally a country bumpkin might be fading into the West (other than with your friends who will never reverse their opinion).

Other than that, is it getting cold in West Virginia? We are getting the kind of weather in Arizona that almost makes it worthwhile living here in the summers.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM

"Eternal vigillance is the true cost of freedom" (Thomas the Rhymer quoted that above)

Yes... OR... "Eternal vigilance is the true indication of paranoia, fear, and hatred."

Either statement could be equally apt...depending on what one is being vigilant about, how one is applying one's vigilance, upon whom one is applying it, and in what manner, and upon what justification.

The Nazis were eternally vigilant. So was Stalin. So is Israel. So is Al-Queda. So is Saddam. So is the CIA. So was the KGB. So was Al Capone. In other words, eternal vigilance can also be seen as the true measure of dictatorship, oppression, crimial behaviour and/or madness.

My, aren't they an agreeable bunch, these eternally vigilant people?

Imagine the fun involved in living under the rule of the eternally vigilant. Gotta love it, eh? I'm glad I'm in Canada, where we are still only mildly vigilant...and yes, if Al Queda bombs Toronto, I will STILL be glad I am in Canada where we are only mildly vigilant, and I hope we will never descend to the incredible fear-mongering I see happening south of the border. Our PM is making the usual noises about Canada's next military contribution to the next multi-national folly, but that's just cos he knows who funds the corporations who fund the political parties who fund guys like him.

BTW, I have always been a mildly vigilant person. This has made me harmless and likeable, and kept me young.

The eternally vigilant are usually a curse upon their neighbours both near and far in this ever smaller world we live in, because they have never considered remedying the essential and original problems...human disunity and inequality of opportunity. The eternally vigilant in my school were the bullies...

The human race is one family. A family that doesn't share the basics equally amongst themeselves is dysfunctional and unjust. There will be further conflict and bloodshed until that is addressed realistically, which it hasn't been, thus far.

All those shedding the blood (the "vigilant") will believe they are doing it on behalf of a suffering humanity. They see themselves as holy warriors. All of them. Even those who claim to be atheists. Makes no difference what they call themselves...they are all, on a conscious level, "defending" what they consider holy, just, and true in their own terms. Every attacker believes he is defending what is right.

Better then, to focus not on what is "right" or "wrong" (subjective value judgements) but on what is beneficial to all concerned: To live and let live.

The only game worth playing, in the end, is a game in which everyone wins. Try telling that to a competitive society...which has founded itself on the very principles of disunity and survival of the "fittest" (meaning: the rich, the well-armed, and the most ruthless).

I've always been into aiming for perfection...never been into competition. I compete with my own past performance, and that's it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM

Under the rules of the Inquisition, a legal denunciation was an anonymous letter nailed to a church door. Sound familiar?


The greatest of all freedoms any citizen of any country may claim is the freedom to be left alone. Once upon a time we had that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:49 AM

I am only an outside observer of USA legal practice, so I might be wrong here.

Surely this legislation can never survive a Constitutional test in your Supreme Court - even with the current limitatons of that Court?

I am curious to know the attitude of the average policeman to this stuff, given the limitations and conditions on the acceptability of evidence in normal criminal cases.

When they start burning witches, you don't have to be a witch to get burned.


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