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Tune Req: Rose of Allandale

DigiTrad:
SWEET ROSE OF ALLANDALE


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Orac 18 Oct 02 - 04:52 AM
Joe Offer 18 Oct 02 - 05:31 AM
Orac 18 Oct 02 - 07:29 AM
radriano 18 Oct 02 - 11:25 AM
Orac 18 Oct 02 - 11:38 AM
Orac 18 Oct 02 - 11:49 AM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Oct 02 - 12:10 PM
Orac 18 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Oct 02 - 01:27 PM
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Subject: Rose of Allandale
From: Orac
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:52 AM

Anyone got a midi file of this tune in its proper 4/4 timing, the only ones I can find are in waltz time. The printed music is always correct in 4/4 time.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:31 AM

Hi - there are a couple of choices here (click) at the Tune finder - but the 4/4 version of the tune there, doesn't make sense to me, and the 3/4 tune is the same truncazted MIDI we have in the Digital Tradition.
There was a message from Barry Taylor that he had sequenced the tune. Took a while to find it, but it's here (and it's in waltz time).
Sheet music is here (click) at the Levy Sheet Music Collection - in 4/4 time. Wanna transcribe a MIDI for us?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Orac
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 07:29 AM

Thanks for the reply. There is even earlier (1848) sheet music here with no credits Click here
In fact all sheet music for this song is (I believe) in 4/4 time. (Even so-called "Irish" song books ... which it isn't of course .. but we won't go there at the moment) It seems to be only recently that its been done in 3/4 time.. even though sometimes the singer is reading the words off a page where the dots are in 4/4 time. I could do a midi but it would be pretty basic I was hoping for something more elaborate like Barry Taylor's to put on my web page. If you want to hear it in 4/4 the Corries version is original, even down to "cot" instead of "home". I understand that it was written in 1835.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: radriano
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:25 AM

"The Rose of Allandale" appears in the Copper Family Songbook, probably one of the original sources. It is shown there in 6/4 time.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Orac
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:38 AM

Yes I think it was them that messed the timing up. Like I said above it was written in 1835 and was in print many times in the 1800's long before the Copper family decided that they didn't like Sydney Nelson's tune as it was. You will find also that the way the tune of the chorus is sung nowadays isn't right either. This fact is true whether you look at the original 19C music or any of the modern editions ...


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Orac
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:49 AM

Joe, I see what you mean the 4/4 midi file in the tune finder makes no sense at all. Doesn't sound like the same tune... or any tune really ... I'll do one myself.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 12:10 PM

I had intended to post the following when this song was last discussed, but seem to have forgotten. Here it is now.

What is interesting is how a pretty, but not particularly distinguished piece of commercial songwriting made in a regular, almost march-like 4/4 time evolved, in the repertoire of the Copper family of Rottingdean, into a proper folksong of genuine beauty. The
Coppers, of course, have a family singing tradition going back many generations; with them, the song lost its rather dogged rhythm and
adopted a mixed 5/4, 6/4 and 3/2 time typical of the English folk style of the 19th century; the melody developed, too, gaining subtlety in the process; this would be not unrelated to their practice, relatively unusual in recorded English tradition, of singing in harmonies of several parts. Compare the original as published by Jefferys and Nelson with the Coppers' version of it and you'll see what I mean.

Once the Folk Revival of the 1950s and later was up and running, various Revival performers took the song up; Nic Jones began to sing it, and Mary Black later learnt it from him and recorded it. Her arrangement of the Coppers' version was governed by quite different
sensibilities, and the demands of a conventional accompaniment forced the song back into a more regular, less free rhythm; it was already
well on the way to becoming a Country and Western piece. People who have recorded it subsequently seem mainly to have learnt it from
her record, and are often unaware of its antecedents (sometimes imagining it to be in some way Irish) and of how much they owe to the Coppers for turning a bit of brass into something a little more like gold.

Here is a midi I made earlier(!) from the sheet music at Levy. I've included the full piano accompaniment which, I think, rather reinforces my point.

The Rose of Allendale: original arrangement.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Orac
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM

Thanks Malcolm, I had just gone away and done a 4/4 midi file but yours is much better. I prefer the 4/4 timing as it gives the song a brighter feel. The 1848 music descibes it as a quickstep and is in 2/4 which as you say is a march, although it is usually in 4/4. I think you are saying the the 3/4 timing is an improvement but I have to disagree. I would also point you to the music for Raglan Road which also is in 4/4 time. Most sing it in 3/4 and it sounds dreadful.


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Subject: RE: Rose of Allandale
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:27 PM

No, I'm not saying that 3/4 is an improvement. The mixed rhythm that the Coppers use, however, I do consider notably superior to the original. The modern tendency to turn the song (as modified by the Coppers; I've never heard a recording or performance that was not based on their version) into a 3/4 "Country and Irish" style waltz is, to my mind, a retrograde step.


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