mudcat.org: Song memorial for September 11
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Song memorial for September 11

Pennny 06 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Bagpuss 06 Sep 02 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,mg 05 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM
BH 05 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM
Amergin 05 Sep 02 - 04:35 PM
Mrrzy 05 Sep 02 - 04:22 PM
Pseudolus 05 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM
Burke 05 Sep 02 - 02:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 02 - 12:32 PM
Amos 05 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 02 - 12:05 PM
Pseudolus 05 Sep 02 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM
Peg 05 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM
Pseudolus 05 Sep 02 - 09:26 AM
Pseudolus 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM
Mrrzy 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM
Peg 05 Sep 02 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,how about.... 05 Sep 02 - 02:51 AM
Pseudolus 05 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM
SINSULL 04 Sep 02 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 04 Sep 02 - 07:44 PM
Burke 04 Sep 02 - 07:21 PM
Tattie Bogle 04 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 02 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 04 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM
Mrrzy 04 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM
Pseudolus 04 Sep 02 - 04:34 PM
InOBU 04 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM
Amos 04 Sep 02 - 03:57 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM
Amergin 04 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM
Mrrzy 04 Sep 02 - 01:39 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Sep 02 - 12:04 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM
Mrrzy 04 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 11:25 AM
Amos 04 Sep 02 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 04 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM
SharonA 04 Sep 02 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 04 Sep 02 - 07:45 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 02 - 06:39 AM
Wolfgang 04 Sep 02 - 05:50 AM
Amergin 03 Sep 02 - 08:54 PM
Amos 03 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pennny
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM

How about We Are The World ? We could be here all night trying to think of a song or act that would symbolically link us all to the events of September Eleventh. Why not just give thanks to the appropriate one for all that we have and all that each one of us can do to alleviate suffering around us and in our world. Listen to others' words more than your own. Maybe a minute of silence with appreciation for the bird's song or even a train whistling along .Just a thought.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:26 AM

Always look on the bright side of life?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM

no..can't do my country tis of thee..

first of all, the tune is GOD save the queen...first of all it is religious. next of all it is imperialistic. P

then someone might want to do one of the next verses..

My father's GOD to thee, author of liberty...

keep on trying though. I think we are down to Somewhere Over the Rainbow..Small World...the Coke Commercial (rots your teeth though and corrupts developing countries)and I'm looking over a 4 leaf clover. Perhaps someone can think of more that people spanning several generations know, that have a tune, that have a message and neither include people we don't like or exclude people such as ourselves who have the hot line to righteousness.

mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: BH
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

I am not a Christian, but I will say that Amazing Grace--to me--is the most meaningful of hymns. It is a song of peace and has evolved into a non sectarian piece.

I would add that the changing of the word "wretch" to "soul" by Paul Robeson made the song just perfect for me. As Robeson said; "...we are not wretches but human souls". When---not if--I go I want that played---and that version.

But as a previous writer noted---whatever brings you peace and serenity is what you should sing, hear, or do whatever you will.

A final though----have we now replaced 12/7 with 9/11. The tragedies mount do they not? And not just in this land.

Bill Hahn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:35 PM

this land is your land works well....especially since so many people have wrote versions of it fitting their own countries....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:22 PM

My Country Tis Of Thee is lovely. I also like the idea of everybody singing what they like, in their own language as the song travels around the world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM

Amos,
To each his/her own, I respect your decision to not participate with a group because of what it would mean to you. Some of us will participate for varying reasons and that's ok too, as I said, to eash his/her own.

McGrath,
I totally agree with you, a lot of people will be remembering that day and to some it will be almost as difficult as the day itself....and they will do it in a way that is meaningful to them.

Burke,
My wife just got her Masters at Widener where Christie Todd Whitman wa the main speaker and she used essentially the same speach. I thought she was very sensitive to the issues and was very NON-political with what could have been a very political subject....I was very impressed.

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Burke
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:21 PM

On September 11 always remember, and each and every September 12, take some time that day to take stock of where you are and what you're doing. Ask yourself, 'What am I doing to help my neighbor, my community, my nation? Am I doing something to make a difference?' Each year, recommit yourself to the spirit of September 12.

--U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Christie Whitman, Hamilton College Commencement, May 26, 2002


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:32 PM

People from 83 countries died on September 11. Not just Americans, or people to whom the idea of America the Beautiful would necessarily be too relevant.

I think the better idea is people in all those 83 countries and more singing whatever seems right to them, and thinking about what happened and the roots of it and the consequences of it for all of us. If that's a thousand different songs in a thousand diffeent languages, all the better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM

Jeeze, you guys sure do wrap around the axles nicely, doncha?


I'll tell you honestly that I would just as soon NOT spend a lot of time remembering 9/11, except for the brave people who moved in to try and help. They're something to remember. I will never forget the cowardice and insanity that started it, nor the pain it caused all over the world, but to invest in commemoration and put my attention back onto the big splash in world attention caused by Osama's Boxcutter Brigade -- I dunno, I think not. It is not as though they were striking a blow for human rights and freedom.

But such remembrance as I will undertake, I'll do in my own space and time, to my own tune. Don't see much point in reinforcing a massive trauma.

Regards,

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:05 PM

GUEST,mg,

I'm all for your first idea in your post that started this thread. But because 'America the Beautiful' has God references, it too is probably inappropriate, despite its very fitting verse in tribute to heroes. Here's an idea: How about 'My Contry, 'tis of Thee', the melody to which is "borrowed" from the national anthem of another GREAT nation? It's not divisive, and there is no religious slant to it, Christian or otherwise.

'My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I [we] sing
Land of the pilgrim's pride,
Land where our fathers died,
From ev'ry mountain side,
Let freedom ring!'

Perhaps "our fathers" could be replaced with "the heroes". Just a thought.

(For those who don't know, I refer to 'God Save the Queen(King)' as sung in the UK.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:03 PM

I agree mg, for what it's worth, I'm going with plan A, your original idea. If you still plan on singing, we may be a chorus of two but we'll be out there!

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM

dona nobis pacem is definitely out. Those are Catholic words used in the Mass. The dona is a command to God, not even a please give us. God keeps rearing his head everywhere in this.

Well, once again something has been destroyed. Very very easy to do. Let's all pick a time and everyone sing whatever and then let's start a chorus and everyone sing a different song because we can't agree. The result will be just lovely.

mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

Dona Nobis Pacem?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:26 AM

Mrrzy, we were posting at the same time so I hadn't read your last post when I entered mine. Here's my offering....

Let's go with the original idea but with a twist...for those of us who intend to remember, let's agree to do so together, at the same time, but with the song or poem or prayer or just silence that each of us chooses. Seems to me that what we end up with is a rememberance as diverse as the Mudcat itself.....

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM

"What the World needs now" has the line "Lord, we don't need another mountain".....probably won't go over too well....

Look, I'm not saying that everyone should jump on board with this idea, I'm just saying that if you don't like the idea, don't join in. And don't judge what others are going to do to find comfort on September 11th. By turning this thread into an argument, the idea has essentially been squashed, and that's sad....

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM

I don't think either SharonA or I objected to the New Yorkers singing whatever their hearts will, yea verily even unto Amazing Grace. What I said was, if the Mudcat is going to do a song-around-the-world, the idea to which I was answering, I would rather it weren't something Christian, but something that includes the Islamic and other faiths as well as the nonbelievers, which I don't believe Amazing Grace does. Taliesn wrote "I thought confirmed atheists find *all* religious practice abhorant to their *special requirements*. " - we have no special requirements that I know of, all I know is that hymns do not speak to my heart in times of trouble, I'd rather sing songs of reality, of hope and the overcoming of fear and danger in *this* world. I do find that in the good old USA, there is a tacit assumption of Christianity, in the same way there used to be a tacit assumption of white skin. Well, there are a lot of folks here who aren't Christian, and if we were the secular nation we were founded to be, the fundamentalist Islamic fanatics would have a lot less to hate us about. What I object to, and more so since 9/11 with all the god stuff our president is always spouting, is the idea that atheists can't be patriots, citizens, or even humans sometimes, that only hymns can soothe the soul, that turning to a particular god or gods is the way to overcome the hatred of those who follow some *other* god or gods.

I think what I said before, which was simply "Maybe we're just tired of being excluded, especially since 9/11? I'm not saying NY shouldn't sing hymns, I'm just saying if we want the whole Mudcat around the world to unite over something, it ought not to be something that excludes some of us." said it all...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:10 AM

What the World Needs Now...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,how about....
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:51 AM

...the old "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Oops. Reviewing the lyrics in my head I come to the "With God as our father, brothers all are we." Maybe something else could substitute there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM

What song would it be that would include EVERYBODY? I don't think there is one. And if you read the first post, the poster didn't ask all of Mudcat to join in. He/she asked that "should you feel like it" you can join in. Who's excluding you? It seems to me that by suggesting that anyone who "feels like it" please join in, they ARE including everyone who wants to. If you choose to "remember" differently, you are free to organize your own, or not do anything special at all. But why, because you wouldn't want to participate, should someone not be allowed to ask people here to get involved? No one asked Mudcat to sponsor the event, no one insisted that ALL mudcatters get involved, it was simply an invitation to get involved if you felt like it. This jumping down people's throats for suggesting an idea that you don't like or agree with just sucks....

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:00 PM

I expect to go to work late on September 11. Despite my best efforts, I know I will be in tears. My song?

"Further along we'll no longer wonder.
Furhter along we will understand why.
Cheer up my brother; Live in the sunshine.
We'll understand it all by and by."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Much oblidged Burke
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:44 PM

(quote) " If you want a sense of joining with others it seems to me that the most fitting way is to join the people of New York in their official events. "

Thank you so much for going to the source and bringing it to us all hopefully proving that them that " Me thinkst protest too much", their points now rendered irrevokably moot , were *never* threatened *one wit.*

I tired to explain allthat , but sometimes being a slave to one's *idoelogical correctness* blinds one to the reality of fears unfounded.

Let us all join now in whatever way suits one, but join,by *all* means join , finally if only out of love.

Peace be unto all


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Burke
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:21 PM

This thread began with suggestions of ways to honor Sept. 11. If you want a sense of joining with others it seems to me that the most fitting way is to join the people of New York in their official events.

From a longer press release: The Governor said whether at formal events, in schools, at home or work, New Yorkers should observe a moment of silence at 8:46 a.m., the moment of the impact of the first plane into the World Trade Center, pause again at 9:03 a.m. at the time of the second impact, 9:59 a.m. at the time the first tower collapsed and finally at 10:29 a.m. at the time of the second tower collapse.

The Governor has requested the tolling of municipal and church bells across the State at precisely 10:29 a.m. as part of the effort to reflect on and remember the tragic events, as well as the heroism, of that day.

See also the Schedule for the Day in New York.

There will be many candlelight vigils in the evening.

Last year our campus held a candlelight vigil. Most singing was unprogrammed with God Bless America probably sung most with America the Beautiful probably second.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM

I have sung a couple of times this year, including last night, Tom Paxton's "The Bravest" which is in the DT and you can hear him sing it on MP3, though it was just too late for his last CD. I shall sing it again this weekend and on 11th Sept.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:32 PM

I couldn't understand it meself, Taliesn, but it is late at night here...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: One more time, Sharon
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM

(quote) ". but you don't seem interested in singing along with others on a song that everyone could feel comfortable singing. What's your objection to, as Mrrzy said, singing a non-religious song we all could "unite over"?

Absolutely *nothing*. One more time for clarity

*Absolutrely nothing*

I noticed you've never seen fit to acknowledge my repeated welcoming Islamic culture contributing to the offering peace and healing. Not to mention the Dalai Lama.

You've also steered conviniently clear of *protesting* these participants because they would be every bit of a *spiritual* nature. I thought confirmed atheists find *all* religious practice abhorant to their *special requirements*. So here's another chance *now* to to state the atheist's case clear and unambiguous.

Meanwhile your blind *idoelogical correctness* pretends as if "Amazing Grace " represents the *only* song that will allowed *to be* sung.

Totally false and to protest otherwise is an insult to anyone's intelligence.This imagined pretense for justifying knee-jerk outrage is based upon a thoroughly false impression; perhaps because it's *inconvinient* to making your protest legitimate.

The problem has apparently *always* been with you and Mrzy objecting to "Amazing Grace" being sung *at all* because of a self-isolating "ideological correctness" that only wants what offends *them* completely eliminated from any ,eventually *all* public ceremony. This is a counter-cultural tyranny that is no less *intolerant* and culturally chauvanistic than you , and whom you deem to represent , always seek to accuse the larger culture community of.

Paraphrasing the old saying " the loudest accusers are often the largest perpetrators".

There, that should stir it up proper.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN I NEEDED A NEIGHBOR (Sidney Carter)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM

Hassles with the publisher mean Sydney Carter songs have had to be kept out of the DT. (Nothing to do with Sydney - he doesn't pay attention to that kind of stuff these days.) So here are the words of that song of his I mentioned.

When I needed a neighbour, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a neighbour were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

I was hungry and thirsty, were you there, were you there?
I was hungry and thirsty were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

I was cold I was naked, were you there, were you there?
I was cold I was naked, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

When I needed a shelter, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a shelter, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

When I needed a healer, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a healer, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

Wherever you travel, I'll be there, I'll be there,
Wherever you travel, I'll be there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
I'll be there.

You can't get less sectarian than that either, I reckon. Writing them out there I was suddenly reminded of what Tom Joad said in Woody Guthrie's version of the Grapes of Wrath, and I wondered if Sydney Carter might have had it at the back of his mind when he wrote that:

Wherever little children are hungry and cry
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a gonna be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM

What Mrrzy said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM

Maybe we're just tired of being excluded, especially since 9/11? I'm not saying NY shouldn't sing hymns, I'm just saying if we want the whole Mudcat around the world to unite over something, it ought not to be something that excludes some of us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:34 PM

Ya know I love this place but only here at Mudcat can a request that was clearly well intended turn into such a friggin mess....... And we wonder why people stay away for long periods of time or leave altogether.

Let's face it, there IS no song that would make everybody happy. Unfortunately, we can't even be happy enough to join in the things we value and leave the rest alone, nope, gotta have a big ol argument...

How about this...? "Hey, that's nice that many of you have found a way to get together and remember in your own way. It's not my thing so I won't be joining you, but have at it, I wish you the best...." Nope, not here, never happen......

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM

Bless you McGrath! I will be singing it as well, details to follow. I'll be thinking of you singing it over there while I am singing it over here. Cheers. Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM

Some of Sydney Carter's would do fine. "When I needed a neighbour" for example. But that wouldn't be good drum banging music.

If I'm singing anywhere that day I'll make a point of singing InOBU's Engine 33.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:57 PM

Well, we could do "Everybody Loves Saturday Night".   

What we really need is a hymn to Mankind, based not on divisive icons but on the living stuff that keeps us ticking over in common. I have a faint memory of Heinlein writing something like it somewhere (not "The Green Hills of Earth", but that's not such a bad idea either).

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:53 PM

Maybe Max should rename it the "Mudcat Heated Discussion Forum".

But hey, at least this is a music thread! *BG*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM

Is there anything we on the Mudcat couldn't find reasons to fight over?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM

like i said...i will be celebrating my birthday....mom explained it right to me....yes so many people died that day...yes it was so upsetting...but also so many people were born....and conceived....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:39 PM

I still vote for the first verse only of We Shall Overcome. I'll be at work (we are planting a tree) so I don't know what would happen if I just started singing... but I'm getting to work early that day, so as to be here, with all the people who were here, then. Our firm lost 2 employees on one of the planes that hit the WTC.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM

Agreed, mg. I'm not sure which larger issue you have in mind, but I know from your first post that your suggestion was for a song memorial that "will go around the world", that people would sing in different countries at a certain hour in their time zone. I assumed that your idea had to do with world unity, at least in remembrance of those who lost their lives that day a year ago. But, as I said before, I have no doubt that many songs will be sung around the world on 9/11/02, at all times of the day. Those lost lives will be in our thoughts; they are not lost to thought on any day, nor will they be for the remainder of our lives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:04 PM

you know, sometimes there is a larger issue that should overcome the smaller ones. mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM

Mrrzy sez: "I thought that America was the one place that had people of Asian, African, and European background, all to be treated equally?" Not only that, Mrrz, but the World Trade Center itself had people of Asian, African, and European background as well as people born and bred in the US! This is yet another reason why I keep saying that a song that "represent[s] Americana" and American "cultural tradition" is not appropriate for a memorial for citizens of various countries around the world who were victims of the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01. It wasn't just an attack on America and America's government (in DC) for its sympathies with Israel, it was an attack on the world and the world's economy... indeed, a small world after all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM

Taliesn - you made my point for me. You call it "a *recognized* hymn " - so it is by definition divisive and exclusive of people of non-Christian religions and no religion. 'Nuff said.

But I go on... Not to mention that those of us who aren't Christian don't know the words in the first place. I thought we were talking about what the Mudcat would sing around the world, not what the New Yorkers would sing in New York, about which I have nothing to say.

You also refer to America's Euro-historic culture ... so, we are all whites, again? I thought that America was the one place that had people of Asian, African, and European background, all to be treated equally? So, we are to sing a white Christian song, and call it inclusive? (SharonA, you said it!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:25 AM

Okay, Amos! Actually, I performed it once at a rally with a vocal group from Africa backing me up; that was pretty cool!

Taliesn: You already did notice. You made a point of noticing, throughout this thread, starting with your initial response to Mrrzy's request for a song that we could "unite over". Your repeated insistence that a Christian hymn is "appropriate" simply because you consider it a "work of Americana art" doesn't make it appropriate or even "relevant" to this particular situation. It may "represent Americana" in your mind, but it doesn't represent all of America or all Americans.

Dismissing me by telling me to "get over it" doesn't dismiss the problem of America's cultural bigotry against non-Christians. Telling me I don't see something's worth doesn't mean I don't see that it has worth to other people. Insisting that America's Christian tradition doesn't exclude me and other non-believers doesn't wash when you said yourself: "So long as the healing of a shared wounded *spirit* kind of requires something an aetheist is, how shall I put this [d]elicately , ill-equipped to comprehend let alone address effectively, best leave things of the spirit to them that have agreed that it exists and therefore can engage in the pursuit of *communing* with it." So you don't consider atheists to "share" America's "wounded spirit"... or, more accurately, you're not interested in sharing the healing of spirit with those who don't believe that there's a spirit with which to commune outside our own spirits. Sorry, Tally, but that's an exclusionary attitude on your part.

Yes, of course, no one's forcing me to take part in a sing-along on the song of which you approve and others don't... but you don't seem interested in singing along with others on a song that everyone could feel comfortable singing. What's your objection to, as Mrrzy said, singing a non-religious song we all could "unite over"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:08 AM

Strongly put Sharon, and well said.

You get to do It's a Small World.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Oh PUH-lease Sharon
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM

Ya know ,before I even start your arguments read like the type of person who knows the exact *price*, down the farthing , of something while posseesing nothing of its *worth*. Or of a lawyer who can argue the finer points of the letter of the law and completely ignore its spirit.

For example: (quote) "Therefore, no belief equals no grace equals no healing."

Give us all a break ,will ya please.

That said here's your latest list of f blatant falacies:

(quote) "But what I and some other people posting to this thread have been saying is that what we *choose* to sing should not be based solely on what *you/they/the culture* have decided that it should mean to us (a "living tradition")."

Try and understand this. *No one* is *forcing you to do *anything*. You are free to do , or not do ,whatever the hell you want. You're free to object till your finger turn blue , but you can't diminish its importance and relevence. Get over it already.

The song does not have any particular meaning meaning on me. I *am* more familiar with the melody without the words and it's as healing and acts as a carrier wave for whatever words are sung and why you can't acknowledge it as an appropriate work of Americana art is your " ideologically correct* problem

(quote) "I cited the hymn's origins because I don't see it as having strayed from its origins in Christian doctrine in the least."

Well perhaps the problem is what you believe is so abyssmally wrong with Chritstian culture that you would mount such a vehement counter-case against this work as representing Americana. Not a xase of *selective* cultural bigotry on your part I hope.

(quote) "So I have a very strong objection to anyone's using this hymn "

Fine. Objection noted . What's changed?

(quote) "If others *choose* to exclude me from their healing process because they *decided* that I don't have a spirit ..... yada ,yada ,yada."

No one is excluding you. Your pre-condition of anti-Christian culture chauvanism causes you to make a point of excluding yourself. Knock yourself out ,darlin'. Whatever you do or chose not to do is your freedom. I doubt anyone will notice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 09:14 AM

Taliesn says, in response to my earlier post, "By your argument do you mean to suggest that it was also still *impolitic* for the Isreali (sic) Symphony Orchestra to finally *choose* to perform Wagner even though *they* decided that the music as a masterwork of art transended the culture that produced it?"

The operative phrase here is that they decided what the music meant to them (a "masterwork of art"). Now, throughout your posts to this thread, Taliesn, you have made it clear that you have decided what "Amazing Grace" means to you, and you have cited the example of memorial services to show what other people have decided the hymn means to them. But what I and some other people posting to this thread have been saying is that what we *choose* to sing should not be based solely on what *you/they/the culture* have decided that it should mean to us (a "living tradition"). We are trying to tell you that we don't interpret it as being "ecumenical" or "culturally transcendant of its origins." We interpret it as a celebration of a specific belief system which is not shared by everyone, "whether you acknowledge it or not".

I cited the hymn's origins because I don't see it as having strayed from its origins in Christian doctrine in the least. It may be non-denominational, as Amos says, but it's not ecumenical in the sense of being "worldwide or general in extent, influence or application" (Webster's Dictionary). Rather, it is ecumenical in the sense of Webster's second definition of the word: "of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches; promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation" (my italics).

Taliesn, you've argued that the song's been applied generally as "the acknowlegded (sic) hymn for healing in the ceremonies of loss" but it's still a hymn! A hymn, by Webster's definition, is "a song of praise to God; a metrical composition adapted for singing in a religious service; a song of praise or joy; something resembling a hymn; paean (a joyously exultant song or hymn of praise, tribute, thanksgiving or triumph)". In "Amazing Grace", the praise is to the Christian God and his "grace"; the tribute is not to the memory of a deceased loved one but to the God who is supposed to grant that loved one eternal life ("grace will lead me home"); the thanks is given not for having had the loved one on earth to share his/her joys and sorrows but to the God who "saved" the "wretch"; the triumph is not the nation's in its determination to rise above terrorism but the Christian God's in his determination to teach the heart to fear and simultaneously relieve the fear. I've pondered these lyrics for years, and I just can't see how they can be interpreted in such a way that they could "heal" anyone who doesn't believe that specific credo. I mean, the lyrics clearly state: "How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed." Therefore, no belief equals no grace equals no healing.

So I have a very strong objection to anyone's using this hymn as some kind of nationalistic anthem of healing and trying to downplay the very clear message of the hymn by calling it a cultural tradition. I'll be one of those who sings another song. If others *choose* to exclude me from their healing process because they *decided* that I don't have a spirit to be healed since I don't believe what they do, that's their lack of grace, not mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE:GUEST, write a song
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:45 AM

(quote) "I wonder if it will be joined in with in Chile, where they have their own September 11th anniversary.... "

Interesting enough. Worth commemorating with a song of its own, no?

I'm till waiting for a decent folksong commemorating those slaughtered in Tiananmen Square by the Beijing regime. Wouldn't happen to know any, would'ja now? However I just can't , for the life of me , fathom why you beleive this has *anything* to do with the choice of singing "Amazing Grace" in commemorating the 1st anniversary of 9/11 mass murder.

Whatever the involvement of the likes if then Sect.of State, Henry Kissinger, in the Alliende affair is *well* documented and hardly unknown to anyone reasonably well-versed in current events and non-fiction journalism coverage of those times.

Wonder what the Chilean equivalent spiritual hymns that are sung.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:39 AM

I wonder if it will be joined in with in Chile, where they have their own September 11th anniversary....

A different September 11 anniversary By Alistair Bell

SANTIAGO (Reuters) - On the morning of September 11, airborne assailants devastated a landmark building in an attack that reverberated around the world.

There was an act of dramatic suicide.

Some 3,000 people were to die in the aftermath of the assault, ordered by a figure whose name is now synonymous for many with violence and extremism.

Not 2001, but 1973.

By a macabre coincidence, the strikes on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon share the same anniversary as one of the most controversial acts of political violence in recent Latin American history.

Twenty-nine years ago on September 11, General Augusto Pinochet staged a heavy-handed coup to overthrow Chile's elected President Salvador Allende.

The president, a leftist who leaned toward Marxism, chose to take his own life in the burning La Moneda palace rather than see his dream of an egalitarian state destroyed.

The putsch is still an open wound in Chile, a country of 15 million people that is now one of the most stable in South America.

"It was a tragic moment in Chile's history. September 11, 1973 marked the end of the democratic system we had in Chile and the beginning of a very dark period. It divided and scarred us," current President Ricardo Lagos told Reuters.

Although of much lesser global impact than the attacks in the United States, Chile's September 11 raised Cold War tensions.

Moscow accused the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency of arranging the coup. Allende became a martyr for the international left and Pinochet began his 17-year career as the archetypal Latin American dictator.

NO CONNECTION

The date aside, the two September 11 incidents are unrelated.

"Chronology on the calendar is one thing, historical events are another. There is no way to associate the U.S. September 11 with Chile's September 11," said Cristian Labbe, a right-wing mayor and one of Pinochet's closest friends.

In a clinically planned operation, military chief Pinochet sent Hawker Hunter jets to bomb the presidential palace in the heart of Santiago to force his rival to hand over power.

The bespectacled Allende, an ally of Cuban President Fidel Castro, was holed up on the second floor of the palace with a group of some 30 bodyguards and supporters.

After several hours under bombardment, Allende ordered everyone to leave the ruined building and surrender, vowing that he would come out last.

But the president ducked out of view, sat down on a sofa in the palace's Red Salon and shot himself.

"We were going down the stairs, being beaten in the back by soldiers with rifle butts and then a shot rang out nearby. Someone shouted, 'The president is dead,'" said Arturo Giron, Allende's doctor, who was in the palace.

For many years leftists accused the army of killing Allende but it is now widely accepted that he took his own life.

"He committed suicide," said Giron.

The military killed 3,000 suspected opponents of Pinochet, most of them murdered in the weeks following the coup.

Hatred was such that an army death squad abducted victims and carved them up with ceremonial swords.

The killings and "disappearances" went on for years. The bodies of 1,000 people who went missing have yet to be found, fuelling human rights protests even today.

SEPT.11 AVE

Many Chileans remember those times with horror, but a sizeable number are equally proud of September 11. So much so that in the 1970s they named a street after it in wealthy eastern Santiago.

Chilean conservatives, who make up around 40 percent of voters, say Pinochet brought prosperity compared to food rationing, strikes and property seizures under his predecessor.

"I supported Pinochet and still agree with what he did," said Marcia Manzano, dining in a fast food outlet on Avenida 11 de Septiembre (September 11 Avenue).

"There was more stability in his time, less crime and less unemployment," said the 42-year-old secretary, her shoulder draped with an elegant woollen shawl.

September 11 Avenue is a mile-long (1.6 km) stretch of banks, shops and glass-fronted skyscrapers -- a testament to Chile's economic boom of the last 15 years.

Despite the grim connotations of its name, U.S. companies like Citibank, McDonald's and FleetBoston bank have branches on the avenue.

Most of the shoppers are middle and upper class, those who benefited from economic reforms in the Pinochet era.

Pinochet, now 86 and ailing, hired a team of U.S.-trained advisers who liberalised the economy, laying the ground for an average annual seven percent growth in the 1990s.

Local mayor Labbe said people occasionally complained about the name of September 11 Avenue, but only because of its link to the Chilean coup, not the 2001 attacks believed to have been masterminded by the Saudi-born dissident Osama bin Laden.

CIA AND THE COUP

The Chilean coup, at the height of Cold War, was followed closely by the United States which was openly hostile to Allende, seen as too close to Moscow.

U.S. documents declassified in 1999 showed the CIA funded opposition activities against Allende.

Latin American leftists suspect direct CIA involvement in the 1973 coup but the exact role of the agency in Chile at the time has never been clarified.

Critics say that Washington, at best, gave moral backing to Pinochet and tacit support to his human rights abuses.

"The same United States that now promotes the war against international terrorism, as we well know, was the United States that supported the rather blatantly terrorist crew that perpetrated September 11 in Chile," said Marc Cooper, a leading U.S. leftist journalist.

Cooper, who was once Allende's translator, fled Chile days after September 11 and is now based in California.

"Having lived through September 11 in Chile I think it made me more generous and compassionate toward the pain that Americans felt about this September 11," he said.

While the United States is expected to grind to a halt for the first anniversary commemorations, Chile will be prepared for leftist protests which often break out around September 11th.

In previous years, human rights activists have thrown full-sized dummies of people into the Rio Mapocho river in central Santiago to commemorate leftists who were killed on September 11 and thrown in the water.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:50 AM

I do not like at all the way this thread has gone. I usually enjoy some of the discussions about religion, hymns etc we had in other threads like e.g. 'Atheist hymns'. They have a good place there. But this thread should be focussed on the theme of the original post from Mary for the good idea should not get lost among futile discussions.

Petra had said it first but I cite Sharon's summary:
I agree with her (Petra) that, if each of us sings a song that brings healing to him or her, the action is no less meaningful than if we all sing the same song... in fact, it would probably be more meaningful.

So be it.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:54 PM

i dont know...gimme that old time religion should satisfy all denominations....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM

Except for the later and often forgotten verse concerning the Lord, Amazing Grace is pretty non-denominational and ecumenical.

But if that won't do why don't y'all just sing "It's a Small World After All" over and over?

If you don't like that, how about "Dat's Right! De Woman is Smahtuh!"??

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 5 August 4:52 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.