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Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Research Project

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ALLSOULS NIGHT
LORD OF THE DANCE (PAGAN)
O, SAVE US FROM FAUX PAGANS (Or, Observations at a Renaissance Faire)


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MAG (inactive) 12 Oct 99 - 07:42 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 12 Oct 99 - 08:59 PM
Art Thieme 12 Oct 99 - 09:09 PM
katlaughing 12 Oct 99 - 11:03 PM
Art Thieme 13 Oct 99 - 12:37 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 13 Oct 99 - 12:42 PM
MAG (inactive) 13 Oct 99 - 12:53 PM
T in Oklahoma (a.k.a. Okiemockbird) 13 Oct 99 - 01:04 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 13 Oct 99 - 01:30 PM
MAG (inactive) 13 Oct 99 - 05:59 PM
j0_77 13 Oct 99 - 07:02 PM
Art Thieme 13 Oct 99 - 11:12 PM
Art Thieme 13 Oct 99 - 11:17 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 14 Oct 99 - 01:42 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 14 Oct 99 - 02:19 PM
j0_77 14 Oct 99 - 03:30 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 14 Oct 99 - 08:35 PM
MAG (inactive) 14 Oct 99 - 09:34 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 15 Oct 99 - 01:35 AM
Art Thieme 28 Apr 00 - 10:03 AM
Peg 28 Apr 00 - 10:31 AM
Peg 28 Apr 00 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 28 Apr 00 - 11:05 AM
Eluned 28 Apr 00 - 06:52 PM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Apr 00 - 09:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:42 PM

Joe Campbell certainly had cutting things to say about the OT punishing Jehovah -- and also about slave-dealing Muhammad and other religious icons. That alone doesn't make him antiSemitic, or I would qualify. comparing him to Pat Buchanan doesn't hold up.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 08:59 PM

The evidence of Joseph Campbell's Jew-hating comes more from casual remarks heard by people who knew him than from his published writings. For example

"In the early 1970s I worked with Joe Campbell on his Mythic Image at Princeton University Press. It was amazing to me that this man of cosmic vision could harbor such mean-spirited and seemingly unexamined biases against much of mankind. In addition to anti-Semitism, I remember in particular his vexation over blacks' being admitted to Sara Lawrence"
--Carol Wallace Orr, letter to the New York Review of Books, November 9, 1989, page. 58.

"When the astronauts landed on the moon, Joe made the repellant jest to a member of my family who was a student of his at the time, that the moon would be a good place to put the Jews"
--Brendan Gill, response to letters to the New York Review of Books, November 9, 1989, page. 60.

"At one faculty function, in 1969 or '70, I found myself drinking with Campbell and another, older, equally right-wing teacher. At some point in the evening, Campbell, responding to a remark I can't recall, said something to the effect that he could always spot a Jew. I, a Jew, said, 'Oh?' Whereupon Campbell went into a description of how the New York Athletic Club had ingeniously managed for years to keep Jews out. He went on and on, telling his story in the most charming and amiable fashion, without any self-consciousness about the views he was expressing and, indeed, without any overt animus--for all that he obviously relished the notion of keeping Jews out of anywhere any time, forever."
--Arnold Krupat, letter to the Editor, The New York Times, December 2, 1989, section 1, page 26, column 5.

This suggests a man who, like Jesse Jackson, learned Jew-hatred as a child, but, unlike Jesse Jackson, never saw the need to unlearn it.

There is evidence, though, of an even darker side of Campbell's Jew-hating mean streak. Roy Finch, a colleague of Campbell's for many years at Sarah Lawrence, in the same issue of the New York Review of Books already cited, called Campbell a "crypto-fascist". In an interview with the Boston Globe, Finch said that Campbell was a "romantic heroic fascist" (though he added that Campbell was "in no sense a bigot." I have difficult seeing how it is possible to espouse romantic-heroic fascism without bigotry, but let that go for now.) Furthermore, in an interview with Richard Bernstein of the New York Times:

"'Joe tended to lump people together,' Professor Finch said. 'So, for example, if he's criticizing Communists, he might be inclined to lump them together with Jews. He thought the left-wing, liberal, Jewish, Communist point of view was part of the degeneration that was going on in our society, and his comments were in that context.'"
--Richard Bernstein, "After Death, a Writer is Accused of Anti-Semitism", The New York Times, November 6, 1989, Section C, page 17, column 3.

Lumping "the Jews" together with the ills that are causing "the degeneration of society" is classic anti-Semitism. Professor Finch was not saying that he ever heard Campbell utter a remark of this kind, and in the Boston Globe interview he said positively that he never heard Campbell utter a racist comment. But in the statement to the New York Times, Finch is saying that he considers it consistent with what he knows of Campbell's character that Campbell would mention "the Jews" as part of "the degeneration" of society.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 09:09 PM

I see that discussing this is gonna step on various toes -- possibly mine included. So--before I cause some to lose some nails---I'm out o' this thread! (I think that's best right now.)

Art


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 11:03 PM

Same thing I'd decided, Art.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 12:37 PM

T in Oklahoma,

I just re-read your post here. If what you're telling us is true, I heartily thank you for enlightening me. I had placed Mr. Campbell on a bit of a pedastal.

Joe is now stepping down. And his feet are turning to clay before my eyes... It's hard to watch. There is some blood-letting involved -- for him and for me. It's hard to associate someone with such brilliant insights into human history and spirituality with such low views of humanity itself.
I'm in shock. I feel like I was just in a plane crash.

Art


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 12:42 PM

I have been following the thread, waiting for my chance to throw in some suggestions about looking into Voudou and Santaria(both offer tons of great music!)--but I haven't, because I haven't quite been able to figure out if I understand the question----

It isn't clear what Mudpuppy is focussing on-- What, exactly, are Pagan/Folk/Magical and Earth Religions? How do you separate them from all the other religions?

Then there is the question of "ancient beliefs"? Do these have to be religions that exist both in the present day and in ancient times? Or can it be religions that exist in either ancient or modern times?

As Mudpuppy mentioned present day documentation if practices and rituals doesn't necessarily mean that they existed like that in the past--the problem that is for every point of time in the past, that is true as well--

Voudou in (randomly picked date) 1799 could be considerably different that of a hundred years earlier, as it undoubtably was of a hundred years later, and certainly of two hundred years later--

Of course this would also be true of the music, which may have changed even faster than other practices, because of the introduction of musicians from other cultures and new musical instruments--

The big problem that I can't figure out the "where" and "when"--cultures each exist in a place and time (We like to use terms like "Golden Age"--like"The Golden Age of Madrigals" or "The Golden Age of Religious Persecution") and of course, religious customs, rituals, etc are a product of a group of people at a given place and time--

That business about worshipping the corn god, with the soccer games where the losers were killed and the winners drank some sort of fermented hot chocolate out of their skulls, was not done everwhere in the world until the Cistercian Monks taught Christianity and that if you left home and hung out with a wildman in the forest, your hair would turn gold if you dipped it in the magic pond after being told not to (even though everyone does it) so that Joseph Campbell could use it as a cover for the shameful bigottry of his youth and Robert Bly could use it to put his grandchildren through college(I am getting carried away here, and I am sorry...)

It was part of a culture from a specific period of time--Even though some of the ritual elements may be carried as fragments into succeeding cultures (Note Frosty the Snowman's corncob pipe in our contemporary Western Christmas folklore!!!)

So anyway, I am really confused--Maybe I'll just gather up my Morris Team and go kill a few chickens--


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 12:53 PM

If all of the anecdotes are true, yeah, he comes off the pedestal.

I am generally a bit skeptical of anecdotes which surface after someone dies.

On another list to which I belong, someone was spreading a load of malarky about Kinsey (of The Kinsey Report), 30 years after the man's death, in order to discredit his scientific research into human sexuality. They shut up when I pointed out how these stories surfaced when there was no one left who could verify them. (About the same amount of time, incidentally, between the death of Jesus and the writing down of his miracle stories.)

I'm not saying this is what happened with Campbell, only that it will take a careful objective look at all the evidence before the jury is in.

Sme have tried to "prove" that Carl Jung did not write *Dreams, Memories, and Reflections.* A careful look at the evidence by Jung scholars confirms that he did indeed write the material, with minor posthumous editing by his secretary. There is some evidence that he was not a very nice person, which doesn't invalidate his brilliant insights into the human psyche. (Kinda like some folk musicians whose work you admire, but wouldn't be friends with.)

MAG


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: T in Oklahoma (a.k.a. Okiemockbird)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:04 PM

Art, it wasn't my intent to cause you or anyone else any pain. I was sticking up for my thesis that the prima facie case that Joseph Campbell had an anti-Jewish streak in his personality is at least as strong as the case that Pat Buchanan has such a flaw.

If you want to keep Campbell on a pedestal, it might be logically possible. I believe there are Jungian web sites which try to defend Campbell against the claim that he was anti-Jewish. I have not seen these web sites, so I can't be sure. I think you can find them by doing a simultaneous web search for the names "Brendan Gill" and "Joseph Campbell" or for the name "Joseph Campbell" and the phrase "anti-semitism."

Whether Campbell had a mean streak, and whether this aspect of his personality influenced his scholarship, are two separate questions. If it can be shown, say, that Campbell mentioned the Hebrew Scriptures in a negative light rather than a positive one, whenever he had a "choice of lighting", or if it can be shown that he took pleasure in the pain he knew he would cause those who revere those scriptures when he spoke of them in ways he knew might shock or offend, then I would say that his private flaw did detract from his public work. But this, as I said, is a separate question from whether he had the private flaw to begin with.

T.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:30 PM

To be serious, or at least more serious, I believe that I heard Bill Moyers discuss Campbell's anti-semitism-- on "Fresh Air" at the time his series on Campbell was originally aired--Terry Gross, who was aware that there had been sensitivities expressed, asked Moyer pointedly about it, and Moyer responded that Campbell had acknowledged that he was raised in an atmosphere where anti-semitism was expressed and accepted, and that he had carried it with him into his adulthood--Campbell had renounced it, and worked to overcome it in himself--

You may or may not choose to accept that someone who is a self-acknowledged anti-semite can change, for my part, I don't care enough about Campbell for it to matter to me--

I can say that as far as Ezra Pound is concerned, (who, although off-topic, was both more important as a writer than Campbell, and far more noted in his anti-semitiscm) I was greatly relieved to learn that toward the end of his life, he acknowledged that his anti-semitism, and his advocacy of Mussolini and the Fascists, had been wrong--


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 05:59 PM

Pound had to recant or go to jail.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 07:02 PM

Accepting a case from 'hearsay' is like buying a car for your hard earned money that is not even designed let alone off the production line. Extremely stupid but is a popular method of manipulating public opinion. IT IS A CON folks - Art I hope you are reading this.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 11:12 PM

No big deal, guys and gals. Rather fascinating though---this whole discourse. In the last decade I've pretty much determined this one thing at least: There is no truth. Only what seems to be true at the moment. It's how I learned to stop worrying and love the passing parade---even when it's a freak show. That's why I like you folks so much.

When I mentioned, "...if the statements posted by T in Oklahoma are true..." I should've also noted my feelings about "truth" not being an absolute for me.

Try Alan Watts amazing book, "THE WISDOM OF INSECURITY".

(and keep laughing)

Art


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 11:17 PM

I said I was out o' this thread! But, as it happens, that wasn't true at all...

Art


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 01:42 PM

MAG,

Pound did not recant to get clemency--

Old Uncle Ez was punished harshly for his words--first he was incarcerated for many months in what amounted to a tin box in Pisa, then brought to the US, tried for treason, and sentenced to a mental institution, St. Elizabeth's Hospital, here in Washington, where he spent about 12 years--

His expressions of error were made in the last years of his life, well after all the battles concercing his literary reputation were over, and in Italy, where there was nothing to be gained--


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 02:19 PM

M.Ted, you're right except that, in the version I heard, Pound was never formally "tried". He was found mentally incompetent to stand trial, and sent to St. Elizabeth's on those grounds.

In your first post to this thread (unless you posted earlier under another name) you put your finger on the whole difficulty this thread has had from the beginning. MudPuppy never said exactly what he (I consider "puppy" to be a gramatically masculine noun) meant. I suspect he accepted the Murray thesis, or something like it, and believed that the Gardnerian Wicca is the direct institutional and cultural successor, by continuous transmission from generation to generation, of a pre-Christian European religions, and that he believed that the Gardnerian Wicca possessed ancient melodies handed down unchanged from remote antiquity without the aid of writing. If this is what MudPuppy meant, then I hold that he was wrong on every point. But maybe that's not what MudPuppy meant. In any case, religious music (Christian or non-Christian, written or unwritten) and other sorts of traditions or customs (whether in "Christendom" or elsewhere) can be fruitful fields of research. As you point out, though, a researcher has to be ready to find both continuity and change.

I don't know why no one ever mentioned the customs of the Roma or Gypsy people on this thread. I vaguely remember considering bringing it up and deciding not to. Now I don't remember why. Oh well.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: j0_77
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 03:30 PM

MudPuppy begins "Pagan/Folk/Magical ..earth.... religions have primarily an oral tradition.." Hmmmmm wonder bout that one.

"My research project to shed new light on these virtually unwritted (unwritten?) traditions ..by attempting to track down

music, lyrics, and tunes associated with these practices and beliefs.

"

Only criticism here is if the music was 'associated' as in 'accidental dressing for' then twould be of little use, eg wallpaper music for the 'hubble bubble toil n trouble..' ceremony. A stronger use of music would be the celtic Goltrai which claimed to give the player/owner power over his enemy by making them sad - I suppose that would be sold as 'tears' so the foe could not see too good. Why, may I ask, would not that same music also affect the owner?

Second issue here is there were no set tunes for these practices: rather it was the way in which the harper played that was claimed to have the effect.
COMMENT I might not use the same method, but I must admit it is a good start. Yup Mudpuppy you are on to something - but I'd bet there are already thesis on the topic.

"It's been a fruitless search. I found one book that may shed some light if I can obtain a copy of it. No web sites I have found are helpful, no books, music stores, or musicians. If anybody can offer assistance, I'd be super grateful. "

hmmm we tried ...


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:35 PM

Sorry I glossed a little on Pound--there was a hearing held and, based on the findings of a team of psychiatrists, he was found to be hopelessly insane--

Oddly enough, a recently published book revealed that three of the four psychiatrists found him to be sane, but deferred to the pronouncement of the fourth to avoid embarassing him professionally--

I looked in my handy dandy Harvard Musical Dictionary and in their discussion of folk music, which says,

"folksongs are obviously old, but their age is often exaggerated. Infe fields of musical study have pure fantasy and wishful thinking been given rein to such a degree as in folk music where melodies showing unmistakeable traits of having orignated in the 17th and 18th centuries are said to date back to the pre-Christian era."

I think it goes without saying that this is also true of the folk music that has religious associations--

It's funny how even religions that started yesterday can show that they are directly descended from some seminal religion in the mystical prehistory-


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:34 PM

My recollections from college are that Pound backed off and was willing to play the idiot, and the doctors were willing to pronounce him incompetent, in order to avoid having to send a very prominent writer to prison. Now if that ain't copping a plea, I don't know what is.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 01:35 AM

You may take that view if you want--but three of the four psychiatrists found him mentally competent, after all-- And he had survived Pisa, where (as I understand it) many those around him were taken away and summarily executed--after suriving that, I think that he believed that he didn't have much to fear--

In fact, rather than being particularly penitent,Pound seems to have continued to shoot his mouth off in the irascible and offensive way that he always had, even well into the time that he was at St. Elizabeth's--it has been said that he said more damning things there than he had previously--

At any rate, the charges could have been prosecuted as capital crimes--slightly more severe than a few years in prison, and, whatever he might have said, he was widely regarded as one of America's greatest poets--so the Government was undoubtedly interested in finding a way out, as well--

Anyway, he is, or was, not an easy person to like--

I have spent many hours, over many years reading his work--like many others, I have a lot of trouble with some of the things I find in his work, and am fed up periodically, only to return--And for me, at least, his own acknowledgments make it easier to reconcile that stuff--and easier to read him, though not to understand him--


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:03 AM

When I put "Joseph Campbell and antisemitism" into a search engine many observations from those close to him came up. True or not, it was food for thought and has made me listen to the man differently than even in previous thoughts I made within this thread. Whether this is fair to the mans reputation or not, it's the way I feel now. I'm sure I'll mellow, but for now, April 28, 2000, that's the reality.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:31 AM

whoa, sorry I am coming so late to this thread...as someone who has performed in no fewer than four pagan bands, and who does a lot of wrting on pagan topics, I might have something valuable to offer (than again maybe not!!!)...
first off, MudPuppy, a book you should locate is "Earth Air Fire Water" by two authors named Skelton and Blackwood; their book is purely about your very topic: pagan imagery and origins of a great many traditional songs and poems, mostly divided into categories of subject matter (magic, nature worship, sexuality, etc.) It may be out of print, in which case I might be persuaded to make photocopies from my copy for you...
As usual these pagan threads have been very interesting...and as usual Okie/T in Oklahoma has been trying desperately to provide us with all the answers. Please, no offense intended, but lighten up a bit! You are obviously well-read on the subject but so are many of us and, while some of us admit there are many differing views and approaches to these topics, you appear to be the only one saying "DON'T read this or that book" or "THIS is the WAY IT IS, no other interpretation possible." This is simply not the way to go about addressing these topics when so much of what we "know" is mere conjecture and poetic product anyway!!!
You say Gardner's books should be avoided, then a few posts later you say Wicca may be a good resource for Helen's research...huh???
Since Helen's research interests lie squarely in the realm of folklore and interpretation of that folklore and how folk magic ways are related to modern pagan practice (and they ARE related, even though, as you correctly point out, Wicca was invented piecemeal by Gardner in the 40s; but he cobbled it together from lots of stuff that had been around for along time and Hutton has demonstrated quite clearly the link between agrarian rituals and beliefes and modern pagan practices), then why on earth should she be told to avoid the work of Graves, Frazer, Campbell, Murray and other authors whose specialty is examining folklore??? I think dismissing these authors and their books, who have been part of the "canon" on these subjects for so very long, is pure folly. At the very least we must acknowledge their influence, even if some of their theories or analyses have been discredited or attacked by those who came later.
I guess I am of the school of thought that thinks no source by any serious scholar (of folklore, history, archeology or magic) should be discounted without having read it first...I mean, Hutton's peers in academia think he is a bit of a nutter for being a practicing pagan, do they not??? And that naturally colors their reception of his work which most of us would agree is of very high quality.

sorry if this post sounds too righteous but there is way too much "I know something you don't know" in the pagan think tanks these days and, since we all start from a place of not knowing anything, we must not forget that each day brings new opportunities to learn...

blessings at Beltaine,

Peg/Albion


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:48 AM

oops, in the post above I said "Helen" when I meant "Mud Puppy"

sorry about that....mudpuppy's name was not on the thread list...


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:05 AM

I don't know what Hutton's colleagues think of his initiation into the mysteries of the Gardnerian Wicca. But I think his scholarly reputation was established before his initiation, and stands on its own.

MudPuppy has never returned, so I don't know how his project came out. But I repeat that, as I read between the lines of his original post, I think he was working from some flawed presuppositions. As I read, he wanted ancient music that had been passed down from deep antiquity without the aid of any writing whatsoever. I think this was a hopeless proposal on its face and advised him to revise his expectations.

T.


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Eluned
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:52 PM

This is a FAScinating thread, and I'm glad Art saw fit to bring it back into play!
I have two questions;
One, why did nobody mention the "Wren Song"????
Two, why does everybody say "Mudpuppy" wanted UNWRITTEN sources, when he stated he wanted "virtually unwritten"? If something survives several centuries and has been written down for 50 years, that IS only a small percentage of its existence!


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Subject: RE: Pagan/Folk/Earth Music Reasearch Project
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:35 PM

I should imagine that nobody mentioned the Wren Song because there is no evidence that there is anything "pagan" about it.  "Virtually unwritten" sources are a bit of a problem, really, since by definition it's only possible to have an opinion about them once they exist in recorded form.  A song that was observed and written down 50 years ago may have been around for "several centuries", but how do you know?  It could just as easily have been made up 51 years ago.  Unless we really want to look like the silly stereotypes that people who despise folkmusic would like us to be, we need to be extremely careful about what we claim; and we need to be able to back up our claims with evidence.

Malcolm


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