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BS: Thatcher speaks no more

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GUEST,Cllr 22 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,DEn 22 Mar 02 - 01:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 02 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Chip 22 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Cllr 22 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM
Gareth 22 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Cllr 22 Mar 02 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Chip 22 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,alistair now n Porto Alegre in the south of 22 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM
banjomad (inactive) 22 Mar 02 - 02:15 PM
Gareth 22 Mar 02 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Den 22 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM
Mr Red 22 Mar 02 - 03:05 PM
Bert 22 Mar 02 - 03:15 PM
DougR 22 Mar 02 - 05:30 PM
alanabit 22 Mar 02 - 05:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 02 - 05:41 PM
Hrothgar 22 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM
harvey andrews 22 Mar 02 - 08:19 PM
dagenham doc 22 Mar 02 - 08:28 PM
Mark Cohen 22 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 12:50 AM
Lanfranc 23 Mar 02 - 03:42 AM
Bullfrog Jones 23 Mar 02 - 04:52 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 23 Mar 02 - 10:11 AM
Dead Horse 23 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM
Mrs.Duck 23 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Pict 23 Mar 02 - 12:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM
Lanfranc 23 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM
JudeL 23 Mar 02 - 03:01 PM
Wyrd Sister 23 Mar 02 - 03:09 PM
Susanne (skw) 23 Mar 02 - 05:35 PM
Gareth 23 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM
The Pooka 23 Mar 02 - 11:06 PM
banjomad (inactive) 24 Mar 02 - 02:50 AM
C-flat 24 Mar 02 - 04:43 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 Mar 02 - 08:04 AM
Geoff the Duck 24 Mar 02 - 08:28 AM
Herga Kitty 24 Mar 02 - 08:54 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 Mar 02 - 09:19 AM
JudeL 24 Mar 02 - 09:25 AM
Hippie Chick 24 Mar 02 - 10:02 AM
Herga Kitty 24 Mar 02 - 10:56 AM
DMcG 24 Mar 02 - 12:21 PM
Little Hawk 24 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM
JudeL 24 Mar 02 - 02:06 PM
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Subject: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Cllr
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM

Baroness Thatcher retires from public speaking engagements The former Prime Minister, Baroness Thatcher, is to stop making public speeches, after a series of small strokes.

A statement issued by her office said:

"Over recent months, Lady Thatcher has suffered a number of small strokes. After thorough investigation involving a number of tests, her doctors have told her that these can neither be predicted nor prevented. They have therefore told her to cutback her programme at once, and in particular to avoid the undue strains that public speaking places on her. With great regret she has decided to abide by this advice and to cancel all her speaking engagements."

The Conservative Party Leader, Iain Duncan Smith, said he was saddened by the news, but fully understood the reasons that she had been advised to withdraw from her public engagements.

"On behalf of the whole party I wish her and Sir Denis the very best and our thoughts and wishes for a speedy recovery", he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,DEn
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:30 PM

Here's to the day when she won't be doing any speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:31 PM

That's wishful thinking from you Cllr. I can understand why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM

Now lemme understand.........does that mean you're wishing her dead?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Cllr
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM

I don't, I just thought I would start this thread before someone else did. I'm off to a dinner tonight with Bernard Ingham as the guest speaker. Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM

Pity

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Cllr
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:51 PM

For our american friends, Bernard Ingham was Thatcher's press secretary for the period she was in power eleven years. One of his more famous quotes was "Blood sport is brought to its ultimate refinement in the gossip columns." If I may be as so bold as to paraphrase "Blood sport is brought to its ultimate refinement in the mudcat forum."Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

Cllr, my question was directed at DEn. Sorry that I wasn't clear. Now run along or you'll be late for dinner. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,alistair now n Porto Alegre in the south of
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM

whooppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, have they started digging the grave yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:15 PM

thers is a god after all


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:16 PM

Digging the grave ? At a cross roads, with a sharp stake handy !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Yeah Chip hope they're keeping a seat warm for her down below. Den


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM

Oh - it's true I see. I'd taken it as satire, in the wake of the way she's been carrying on lately. P>

I think the sooner she gets better, and the longer she keeps going, the more uncomfortable the poor old Official Tory Party headed by what's his name is going to be, and the happier the Provisional Tory Party headed by Tony Blair will be.

If anyone's got a stake ready for her it'll be someone theoretically on her own side. After all, they've already rehearsed that with her a few years back, haven't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:05 PM

Well! I'm speechless!
at last!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Bert
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:15 PM

As much as I disagree with her politics I'm sorry to hear that she is sick.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:30 PM

Bert, I always thought you were a man of class. That sentence is evidence of it, I think.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:40 PM

I'll go along with that. Let's wish her back to quiet, reticent, good health.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:41 PM

That's taking it as face value, as really being true. That hadn't even occurred to me. I suppose it's quite possible it's not a convenient excuse. Possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM

She's still writing books. Best of all, she's still capable of putting the boot into the Conservative party. Now, that is fun to watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM

Whatever her other strengths and weaknesses, Thatcher has tarnished her own reputation with her petulant refusal to let go the reins. The more so, because she had been on the receiving end of similar crass behaviour from her own predecessor as Conservative leader, Ted Heath.

Nothwithstanding the example of Heath and Thatcher, it is not compulsory for Tories to behave like this. Witness William Hague and John Major, two thoroughly decent geezers, both of whom managed to hand over with dignity.

For Labour leaders, this seems to come naturally, as evidenced by Wilson, Callaghan and Kinnock. Which is strange, because I was brought up among Tories who believed that such qualities were a matter of breeding.

Cllr, your pathetic impressionability continues to amaze. (Splendid post on that theme, Chip.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:19 PM

Just back from a gig to read this happy news, then I see a thread further down requesting the lyrics to "No grave can hold my body down".....scary eh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: dagenham doc
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:28 PM

Oh you of short memory...I hope she rots.... slowly that is.

Doc


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM

Alanabit, it's good to see that someone still knows the meaning of "reticent". These days, most people think it means "reluctant" ("reticent to speak" is the common phrase). Of course, pace Edwin Newman, that means that "reluctant" is on its way to being the "real" definition. Sic transit gloria linguae.

It's also interesting to watch this little bit of British political debate, an art that was in full flower when the U.S. was just a gleam in Leif Erickson's eye...

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:50 AM

Dr. Mark, you're right about "reticent" and the misusage-driven redefinition. And right again about British political debate. My my, rather rough-and-tumble there, gentlemen. Guess we're still a bit reticent over on this side of the pond...(or way out in the middle of the other pond, in Mark' case)...I think even most Reagan-haters don't celebrate the Alzheimers which afflicts Maggie's biggest U.S. admirer (though some might say, "How could they tell?")...Now *Nixon*, perhaps that's another matter...Mark I'd say you're wrong about Leif Erickson but I'm sure it was just a slip of the keyboard; you meant a twinkle in the eye of St. Brendan the Navigator :) / I don't like the Milk Snatcher either but I'll second Alanabit's quiet-good-health motion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Lanfranc
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:42 AM

I, too, was struck with a wave of schadenfreude when I heard the news. Thatcher tacet - exultate!

Dubya is as bad, if not worse, than Thatcher - reactionary, bellicose, ignorant, etc. Just because he can't string two coherent sentences together doesn't mean that he's not dangerous!

Reagan was a joke, but there were constraints in his day that have since been removed. Dubya is, frankly, bloody terrifying, as far as I'm concerned, and, thanks to Blur, we're supposed to be on his side.

"Let's drop the big one, there'll be no-one left to blame us!" (Randy Newman, "Political Science")

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 04:52 AM

Bear in mind that this is the woman who: first came to our attention as Thatcher the milk snatcher when, as Minister for Education she deprived schoolchildrem of their free daily milk; started a pointless war in a misbegotten set of islands that none of us had ever heard of to take our minds off the political problems at home; oversaw the destruction of the British mining industry; oversaw the destruction of the British Trades Union movement; started the sell-off of Britain's nationalised industries for short-term gain (as Harold MacMillan put it 'selling off the family silver'); Inspired in Britain a me-first, get-rich-quick, screw everybody else, money-is-God culture;

Why on earth should anyone wish her ill?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:11 AM

Great news isn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Dead Horse
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM

I would guess that the official statement is to cover up the political gag that the party wishes to put on her ladyshit (oops, meant to put a "t", honest I did). That bitch will continue to haunt us all from the grave, so I'd rather she keep embarrassing the tories for years to come....lest we forget!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM

Pity it didn't happen 30 years ago!!I was rather hoping one of the strokes would finish her off permanently though!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: GUEST,Pict
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:00 PM

There will be tunes written in Scotland to celebrate the day of her death she was and is detested by the vast majority of Scots and with good reason any enmity directed towards her is thoroughly deserved she was a vile megalomaniac.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Insofar as there is blame for Thatcherism, that falls primarily on the people who voted for her, and the people who disagreed with her, but colluded with her for reasons of real-politik.

Including especially those who obstructed the kind of tactical voting and electoral reform which would have made it impossible for a minority backed extremism to rule the roost for so long.

Concentrating the hate on Thatcher is a bit like saying it's the fault of the cigarettes when you get lung-cancer, and ignoring the fact that it's only when you smoke them that they do you any harm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Lanfranc
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM

I never voted for her, nor did I collude with her. I have always supported Proportional Representation.

I always loathed and despised her.

I'm beginning to feel very much the same way about Anthony Blair, which is worse, because I did vote for him first time round!

"Confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks" ("God Save the Queen")

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:01 PM

Thanks Bullfrog, for putting it so succinctly. It is not just the anti-worker legislation or the "selling off the family silver" it's the underlying ideas that are so dangerous, such as the idea that letting profiteering private companies make money out of the old and the sick and only provide a minimalistic service is better, better for whom? Unfortunatly we are still living with her legacy of "society, there is no such thing as society" and after she was through brainwashing an entire generation beginning with what is taught in schools she was correct, having destroyed the spirit of community values that encouraged people to help each other. Ideas such as "casting bread upon the waters" and the parable of the good samaritan seem to have been largely replaced by "never give a sucker an even break" and "he/she/it was just asking for it".


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:09 PM

For this relief...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 05:35 PM

McGrath, you're right that Thatcher couldn't have done this much harm if people hadn't voted for her in the first place. As to smoking, you're not quite right. There is at least one folksinger who's never smoked, but forty years of inhaling other people's smoke have permanently damaged his lungs.
Dead Horse, I don't believe it's a cover-up. If they couldn't silence her before, they couldn't now. She must have a very good reason. Maybe she's worse than they let on. Still, I wouldn't wish suffering on anybody - not even Mrs Thatcher!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM

Unfortunately this means the end of the old joke.

Dennis Thatcher dies - Were there any last words ? - No, she was with him to the end !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

The malice of the woman was beyond bounds.

She engineered a recession to enable her friends the rich to starve out the poor, and so beceome richer.

Deliberately.

I wish her a long illness with much pain.

Then I wish her a long time in hell.

As a piece of thread creep, if anyone has a better curse than that in Laszlo Feyer, let me know and I'll use it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:06 PM

Jaysus. It's none o'me business & I been tryin' to stay out of it today, but: Order! Order! The House will be in Order! / Thank you. / Mr. Paddy Ashdown.

Susanne (skw), your sentiments are humane and comnpassionate. More so than many feel she deserves, obviously. This may reflect a cultural gap between the UK and Schleswig-Holstein; but I'm just guessing. / Order! Order! ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:50 AM

let us not forget, thatcher sent British soldiers to thier deaths to further her politcal ambitions. Feel no pity for this vile thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:43 AM

C'mon you Guys..you're scaring me!!Thatchers politics may go against the grain of every right thinking person but to wish a slow,long suffering death upon her is perhaps going too far? The political pendulum was swinging hard to the right in the eighties, not just Thatcher. Those ballot boxes weren't rigged, the electorate gave Thatcher the go-ahead to behave the way she did! As for going to war to further her own ambitions, I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu with Blair! I certainly don't hold with what she did whilst in power but I'm not going to put the boot in now that she's sick. The time for that was 20 years ago! Unlike Tony Blair, you always new what Thatcher stood for and could vote against her! I voted for Blair thinking I new what HE stood for but I defy anyone to define New Labour's politics!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:04 AM

C-flat, you're dead right about Blair. But so is Richard Bridge about Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:28 AM

As for wishing her a long painful illness befor death. I for one wholeheartedly support such a concept. She condemned thousands of elderly people in old folks homes by closing them down. The legacy of that act is unfortunately still with us years later as the so-called efficient PRIVATE ENTERPRISE old folks homes, which were supposed to cost the taxpayer less, have now screwed the system for every penny they could squeeze out of us and have decided that they can make more cash by turning 102 year people out on the street so that they can sell the buildings to property developers for demolition.
Care in the Community involved selling off psychiatric hospitals and care homes so that the mentally ill could be allowed the dignity of starving in cardboard boxes
Do we really need to list more reasons why she should burn in hell (Actually I do not believe in HELL, so could we just burn her here and now instead?).
Mind you Tony Blair had from his first day in office followed the teachings and policies of Margaret Thatcher, so I would be delighted if he could join her as quickly as possible in pain!
Not laughing!!!!!!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:54 AM

C-flat

The electorate didn't exactly give Mrs T the go-ahead - they just didn't stop her. The voting system meant she only needed 40% of the vote to have a massive Parliamentary majority, and she didn't really care about the other 60%. Tony Blair may be screwing things up but at least he tried to be a bit more inclusive than that.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:19 AM

Kitty, how do you work that out? The vote for Blair in 1997, which resulted in a parliamentary landslide, was smaller than that which gave John Major's Conservative government a narrow majority in 1992. That vote for Blair was in fact less than the vote for Clement Attlee in 1951, when the electorate was much smaller, and Attlee in fact lost. About the only thing to be said for the American college system is that it's less bad than the UK's.

And always remember that just before the last election, Blair refused repeated invitations by an interviewer, to see anything wrong in the gap between rich and poor continuing to widen. (Pre Thatcher, the biggest salaries were 30-40 times the average. By the time Blair was being grilled the biggest earners were on 200-300 times the average wage. And his first government had made no impression on child poverty, despite a manifesto promise to eradicate it within 20 years.

Blair is inclusive in the sense that his new chum Berlusconi in Italy is inclusive. You can be in his club, but you have to be rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: JudeL
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:25 AM

About that so called free choice to vote for her or not see my remarks about brainwashing, controlling what is taught in schools etc. There used to be a saying something about "give me a child until he's seven". Don't forget she's the one who pushed theough several laws curtailing the right of free speech (which incidentally have not been fully repealed) and advertising revenue is a strong motive to adjust the slant on what is broadcast or printed. It was also her lot who restricted university education to those who could afford it. If you have to work all hours just to be there it's fairly obvious this is going to affect how much attention and effort you can put into your course. Social work is currently in crisis partly because of chronic underfunding and partly because most of those who would previously have done the training who come from poorer backgrounds, that actually have an understanding of social problems faced by many in society, can't afford the training, so we are left with rich kids straght out of "daddy sponsored" uni who haven't a clue about what it really means to struggle to make ends meet. The same holds true for teachers, who now teach PSE (physical, social education) and which includes the party line on "social" issues. New Labour (otherwise known as Tories in disguise) are currently discussing including "citizenship" issues in the list of compulsory subjects. National Curriculum or National brainwashing. Lets not forget the highly discriminatory idea of having huge amounts of "to be done at home, without any supervision" coursework that is even a part of a Maths GCSE, coursework such as this reflects little of the ability of the child and more their social circumstances (do they have their own room, their own computer, parents who can afford to eat if at least one of them stays at home with the children). Given that in many (accademic) subjects the coursework represents 2/3 of the marks, it amazes me how little there is to ensure that what is handed in is only and entirely the child's own work. This system is not only discriminatory, but it devalues and undermines the validity of any couses passed. Is it any wonder that many companies are expecting prospective employees to prove in their own exam conditions that they are literate and numerate despite having "gcse" english and maths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:02 AM

From a politically less-ept American, to paraphrase, "from Tintagel to Orkney land, in every mine and mill, where working folks defend their rights, it's there you'll find Joe Hill, it's there you'll find Joe HIll."

"Don't Mourn, Organize!"

I don't follow news as I should, but surely if the views expressed herein are widely held over there, you can make the pendulum swing the other way. It has to sooner or later, and you can be part of the doing.

I perhaps am more idealist than realist, but but people like Thatcher and W didn't get where they are by their supporters being dis-organized. (or dis-organised)

HC, folkie from Ohio


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:56 AM

Fionn

I think the main problem might be that everyone is so disgusted with politics / politicians that they aren't turning out to vote. Who's left to vote for rather than against?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 12:21 PM

Agreed Kitty. I was discussing this with my teenager sons today - both keen on history - and they felt that when both/all the main parties are considered unacceptable and/or unable to achieve you become very vulnerable to minor parties like the BNP gaining power. The elder pointed out that this is pretty much what happened to the Weimer Republic. Obviously that is a very extreme example, but the risk is there, as shown by Bradford


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

I'm so fed up with all the Canadian mainstream parties that I won't vote for any of them, so it's happening here too. I like my local politicians far better (mayor, etc.). They don't belong to any party, and that's a darn good thing. They are free men and women, free to vote their conscience.

As for Maggie Thatcher, I detest her political attitude, but I'll have to go along with Bert on this one...I don't wish illness or death on anyone...not anymore. Such wishes have a way of coming back to haunt a person.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher speaks no more
From: JudeL
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:06 PM

Hippichick: you said don't mourn organise. That's very close to a phrase that I and other union stewards have been using "DON'T AGONISE - ORGANISE". We keep trying, and part of that is encouraging others to realise how deeply the change in culture has reached and to try to get others to remember the much maligned values of helping each other and doing things because they need doing rather than thinking of everything in terms of how much money is this going to make me. Selfishness has somehow become a virtue and helping others reviled as being a weak doormat. People tend to say I'm only one person , what difference does it make? And maybe, today, my choices, on their own may not do much, but the world is made up of individuals making choices and with enough people we can change the world, or a least a bit of it. Idealistic - undoubtedly, but if you don't try, you lose before you begin.


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