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BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal

GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 16 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM
gnu 16 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 16 Mar 02 - 07:39 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM
Ebbie 16 Mar 02 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,repooc 16 Mar 02 - 09:17 PM
hobbitwoman 16 Mar 02 - 09:18 PM
gnu 16 Mar 02 - 10:31 PM
mack/misophist 16 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM
JedMarum 16 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM
Ebbie 16 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 16 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM
RichM 17 Mar 02 - 01:03 AM
Peg 17 Mar 02 - 01:29 AM
Hrothgar 17 Mar 02 - 03:23 AM
DMcG 17 Mar 02 - 03:51 AM
Terry K 17 Mar 02 - 04:00 AM
Hrothgar 17 Mar 02 - 04:10 AM
Les Jones 17 Mar 02 - 04:27 AM
gnu 17 Mar 02 - 07:16 AM
harpgirl 17 Mar 02 - 10:11 AM
JedMarum 17 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 17 Mar 02 - 12:18 PM
katlaughing 17 Mar 02 - 01:00 PM
SINSULL 17 Mar 02 - 01:16 PM
nutty 17 Mar 02 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 17 Mar 02 - 02:16 PM
DMcG 17 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM
mack/misophist 17 Mar 02 - 03:26 PM
Penny S. 17 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM
Amos 17 Mar 02 - 05:24 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 17 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,DMG at Work 18 Mar 02 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,DMG at Work 18 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM
Amos 18 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 18 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 18 Mar 02 - 09:25 PM
Amos 18 Mar 02 - 09:33 PM
Rick Fielding 18 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM
michaelr 19 Mar 02 - 01:22 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 19 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM
Amergin 19 Mar 02 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 19 Mar 02 - 08:34 PM
Amergin 19 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 19 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM
Amos 19 Mar 02 - 09:16 PM
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Subject: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

I really need to figure this out. I am a lifelong Catholic..not an overly good one...but I still am one. I am blindsided by the extent of this problem. I do have a song in the works..to the tune of Star of the Sea...Could it have happened at Star of the Sea. If anyone wants to add some lyrics for possible inclusion, just pop them in. Anyway, the response of the bishops and that awful Cardinal Law and even the Pope himself has been shocking...

It's no secret that the Catholic church isn't exactly an incubator of a healthy sexual morality and I guess this is the result..what I really think is that they think the real sin that they have avoided is contact with a woman. By abusing children they have somehow kept their vows with a far lesser sin...and some of their excuses..Masters and Johnson wanted us to get in touch with our sexuality..from a bishop (I think) who had been in bed with a boy....Bullshit.

This has the church reeling. It has been on the burner for a while...but then it fades...I think Sept. 11 has a factor in this because so many Catholics lost their lives and such good families were profiled...I don't know....I try to make sense out of it...and of course in the back of every Catholic's mind..."Could it have happened at Star of the Sea."

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM

"....By abusing children..."

Fuck off asshole ! Not too often I respond to an insignificant, slimey piece of FUCKING crap like you, but to say something like that in a public forum deserves almost an equivalently disgusting response. I wish I was within arms length of you because you would be going home to mommy with a tear in your sad eyes. You are one sick individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:39 PM

huh??? Perhaps I didn't word this right...I mean in their minds it is a lesser sin...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM

MGarvey, this is a difficult situation to discuss without raising kneejerk reactions from the overly emotional, especially from those who do not seem to understand simple English. It has been a serious problem here in Canada as well, among protestant clergy as well as Catholic. These individuals should have left their positions in the Church if they could not fulfill their vows. I am not a Catholic, in fact I am atheistic, but these men have serious responsibilities to their parishioners and to society as a whole. I think the Catholic Church stand on celibacy for priests (as well as the stance against women priests) is antidiluvian, but that does not mean that I would in any way excuse these men for their crimes.
I really see little to discuss. These men have proven themselves beyond the pale, and whether they are in or outside of any church should have little bearing on the matter; they must be treated like any other sex offender and kept apart from the young.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:03 PM

I agree with mgarvey. On the other hand, the other night ABC Nightline (I think it was) interviewed 4 or 5 seminarians and I think there is hope there. These young men when forced to articulate their stance did so very well.

One of the men said that if he learned of an abuse he would first talk to the alleged abuser, ascertaining if it were true. He would then tell the person that if he did not turn himself in to the police, he would go to the police himself.

So many agencies and organizations -from the medical and the legal professions to non-profits to tribal disputes- over the years have had a policy of 'internal' sanctions and penalties that they deem applicable.

It seems simple- if a crime has been committed, it should be prosecuted.

I suspect that gnu misread mgarvey's post.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,repooc
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:17 PM

I am a Catholic who is outraged that money I have placed in the collection plate to support the work of the Church has been used to silence victims of sexual predators. Centuries of cover-ups & pay offs must end. Priests who abuse children & the bishops who protect them must be treated for what they are...criminals. There is a great opportunity here to bring the Church into the 21st century. Perhaps a boycott of the collection plate will get the attention of the powers that be!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:18 PM

I suspect gnu misread mgarvey's post, too. It was obvious to me he was being sarcastic in his comment that pedophilia was a "lesser" sin. The scary part is, I wonder if in the eyes of some of the Church hierarchy, it is. I think some of these guys tend to look upon women as being evil, leading men astray and all that rot.

The question I have is not why there is so much pedophilia in the Church, but why so many pedophiles become priests? Do they see it as a rich harvest? All those innocent little altarboys who would be too afraid to tell? Scares the hell out of me, as a lifelong Catholic who still goes to Mass every Sunday.

Something has gone seriously wrong somewhere. Wish I knew what it was, and how to fix it. I'd love to say letting priests marry was the answer - but it's not. It might be the answer to the shortage of priests- but marriage is no answer to pedophilia. Any more than trying to eliminate homosexuals from the priesthood would be. In fact, the best nun I know is a lesbian who figured that, because she accepted the Church's teaching on sex outside of marriage, she would have to be celibate, and if she was going to be celibate, she might as well make it count for something!

Just one person's opinion!

Annie


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:31 PM

...."I suspect gnu misread mgarvey's post, too. It was obvious to me he was being sarcastic in his comment that pedophilia was a "lesser" sin. The scary part is, I wonder if in the eyes of some of the Church hierarchy, it is."

And how is that statement any less pathetic ?

While I agree that such abhorent behavior as is being discussed should be routed out and dealt with in the harshest manner, I can't stomach some of the outright bullshit and bigotry that you people toss off. Choose your words and your targets carefully, lest someone single you out with innuendos and accusations without merit.

agnosticgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

The real (read internal, here) is not so much moral as administrative. There is a great shortage of priests, to begin with. Doctrine from the Early Middle Ages states that a priest is only a man, no more moral than any one else; that a vocation is a gift beyone merit. Add to that the fact that, for decades, the Curia has been nervous about it's diminishing moral authority and you have a situation where head in the sand blindness becomes almost mandatory. The Church likes having people look to priests and has done it's best to promote this attitude. Unfortunately, that included turning a blind eye to felonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM

The tenor of these posts seem to suggest that the problem is confined to Catholic priests. At least here in Canada, the problem extended to Anglican and Methodist church schools. The suits, if upheld on appeal, would bankrupt these churches as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM

Catholicism doesn't create these deviants ... the church, finding it difficult to recruit men into the life of a priest turned a blind eye to the deviants who found the influence of a priest within a community, to close proximity to their prey, and the 'excuse' for not leading obviously hetero lifestyles attractive. A generation or two of taking perverts into the priesthood is taking its toll.

The insult to injury is that many many in the church have known about it for years; lay and clergy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM

what I really think is that they think the real sin that they have avoided is contact with a woman. By abusing children (they think) they have somehow kept their vows with a far lesser sin...and some of their excuses..Masters and Johnson wanted us to get in touch with our sexuality..from a bishop (I think) who had been in bed with a boy....Bullshit.

I mean in their minds it is a lesser sin...mgarvey

"These men have proven themselves beyond the pale, and whether they are in or outside of any church should have little bearing on the matter; they must be treated like any other sex offender and kept apart from the young." (Dicho)

"It seems simple- if a crime has been committed, it should be prosecuted." Ebbie

"Priests who abuse children & the bishops who protect them must be treated for what they are...criminals. "Guest/repooc

"Scares the hell out of me, as a lifelong Catholic who still goes to Mass every Sunday." hobbitwoman

I can't stomach some of the outright bullshit and bigotry that you people toss off. gnu

Any explanation, gnu?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM

RE: >I am a lifelong Catholic..not an overly good one...but I still am one.

The fault lies with YOU!!!

If you, and 62 million others, had been more active and better Catholics, your children would not have been turning to "professionals" for spiritual counseling and guidance; they would have found it at home.

Because you failed the church, the church "failed you."


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: RichM
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:03 AM

I've known good priests, and bad ones.
There are bad ones, like the one that chased my mom up a tree when she was ten years old. She climbed to get away from him because he was fondling her genitals. He said it was alright, because he was a priest and God allowed it.

Religion is a crutch.
Learn to walk on your own.
Don't give any other human the right to dictate your spirit path.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peg
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:29 AM

when I was a catholic, the head priest of our church was just a drunk...now looking back I wonder if any of those guys were doing anything inappropiate with kids; but I have never heard of anything improper.

I live in Boston which is currently the center of all the controversy at the moment. The worst thing here is that Cardinal law will not resign, even though many are calling for it. He covered up for Geoghan for years, and continued to allow him to be a priest, and to me this says he was complicit in the child abuse. He knew the man needed help, and just kept putting him back in situations where he would have contact with kids.

Gnu; read more closely and think before you post; you are overreacting and misunderstanding and not necessarly in that order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:23 AM

Somehow the church seems to have got itself locked into the mindset that the organisation is more important than individuals. The same thing happens in police forces and the like, when one of them breaks the law. It is more important to protect the wrongdoer in order to maintain the authority of the organisation than it is to protect "minor" individuals.

We have just been going through a major scandal in Australia, where the Governor-General, who used to be an Anglican (Episcopalian in the USA?) archbishop has protected clergymen who committed child sex offences.

Maybe it's time for another Martin Luther to come along and put a flamethrower through the bureaucracies of the major Christian churches.

It sometimes seems to me that there is nothing wrong with the Christian faith(s), but there is a lot long with the organsations that run i (them).


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:51 AM

I don't think anyone posting here - including gnu - regards this whole thing as anything other than criminal and failure to treat it that way can do nothing other than harm to the Catholic Church. The same applies to any other organisation which condones such behaviour.

So no-one - especially you, gnu! - think I am condoning or belittling the crime by the rest of this post.

What make the matter worse for a Christian is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is only one place in the Gospels where Christ discusses sex at all: namely the stoning of the adulteress, when in fact his response was pretty much "leave her alone - the rest of you have behaved at least as badly in this or other ways". Again, about the only sin Christ condemns strongly and repeatedly is to be a hypocrite.

And where is the Catholic Church now, in the view of the general public? Obsessed with sex (contraception, abortion etc), the priesthood with more than its fair share of sex-criminals and the whole Church heirarchy guilty of hypocrisy.

So what is the practicing Catholic to do? The rest of the world can fume and condemn, but each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is. This is what makes it such a personal issue for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:00 AM

Hrothgar, having just come back from Oz I thought this whole thread was about the Governor General! Amazing that something so abhorrent is apparently so widespread within the church, all over the planet.

I have to say I'm not really surprised when you consider the problems all over the world that seem to be connected to religion - it seems that "god on our side" is used as an excuse for all kinds of behaviour.

And when you consider that the world has existed for 4,600 million years and organised religion (based on primitive superstitions) for only about 4,000 of them, does it not make you wonder?

When will they ever learn.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:10 AM

Gee, Terry, you're not getting into that debate about the Anglicans being Catholics while the Micks are Roman Catholics, I hope!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Les Jones
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:27 AM

People declare relgions, see L Ron Hubbard and the thread Blind Faith. Most are not open to democratic forces or in some cases the law. I think that makes them evil or at least potntially evil.

Don't trust any of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:16 AM

Ebbie, when I read, "By abusing children they have somehow kept their vows with a far lesser sin..." and statements like the church "looked the other way" or condoned deviants because of a lack of priests, it turns my stomach because it implies that Catholics and their church allow this deviant behaviour. Where is the explanation, that is, proof, for these accusations ?

I'm going to leave now. I shouldn't have posted in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:11 AM

...one thing I think might make religious institutions more accountable to the public, open to scrutiny, and prosocial would be to treat them as sub "S" corporations and require them to pay taxes, file returns, and open their institutional books to the general public.

Another thing we might do is make all clergy subject to the same licensing laws as other medical/mental health professionals.

It is evident as I have said privately, that the requirements of celebacy for male priests has driven healthy males away from the Roman Catholic church in droves.

Bringing women into full partnership in these religious institutions would also help to protect children in these institutions. We need creative and forward looking solutions to these problems...harpgirl


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM

right on - let's eliminate separation of church and state - let's federalize and regulate religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:18 PM

that is exactly the problem..that they ..we.. have known about it, covered it up, protected the sick and guilty and bought off the victims....and insured there would be more victims by transferring the sick priests to other parishes....all at the same time that the church was still (this goes back a long ways) absolutely horrified by consensual sex between a male and female (in most cases) adult...there is no sense of proportion here...no sense of the harm that has been done..even when the victims have become alchoholics, committed suicide etc...and there is something that not just condones this, but produces it.

Last night, after taking up a second collection for an agency I am involved with that works with sexual assault victims (girls in this case), the priest said sit down...we sat...he said I need to say something about the scandal. I thought, at last. He said.. Don't be too quick to judge. The church has always had scandals. That was about the jist of it. Not one word about the victims.... the people I was with almost got up and walked out..... mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:00 PM

Jed said: Catholicism doesn't create these deviants ... the church, finding it difficult to recruit men into the life of a priest turned a blind eye to the deviants who found the influence of a priest within a community, to close proximity to their prey, and the 'excuse' for not leading obviously hetero lifestyles attractive. A generation or two of taking perverts into the priesthood is taking its toll.

Perhaps the church should have figured out WHY it has been difficult to recruit? Also, I hope that you are NOT implying a broad generlisation about gay men.

The church has an ancient and continuing history of putting people in unrealistic, against nature situations: celibacy, never ending childbirth, subjugation of woman, circumventing one's own spiritual sense, extreme control over its parishioners.

The only wonder is why so many intelligent people, including my own in-laws, continue to support such an archaic institution. You each have the power within you to be your own "priest" and know the Truth of whatever religion or spirituality you may choose to embrace.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:16 PM

I was raised Roman Catholic and remember the priests of our parish clearly. Most were ex-chaplains from WWII. I personally spent many hours helping in the church and the Parish House. And never experienced or even heard of any attacks on children.
It saddens me to think that these men and men like them are now tainted by the crimes of others. It infuriates me that the church chose to cover up the crimes and set perverts loose on me and my family while forcing us to listen to sermons from these same perverts on the evils of homosexuality between consenting adults.
I lived in Buffalo in the 60s and 70s. The police there knew of a Catholic priest from out of state who had been accused of rape, protected by the church, and moved into a local parish. They knew because a concerned former parishioner warned them that they had a rapist in their midst. They could do nothing but wait and hope he didn't rape again.
The Sunday Times has a front page story explaining that the problem in worldwide. There are similar cases in Ireland, France, Poland, etc. Millions have been paid out in secret settlements. How does the Pope expect to be taken seriously in the Church's stands on abortion, homosexuality, divorce, or any moral issue when he has been actively participating in a worldwide cover up of the sexual abuse of children?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: nutty
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 02:04 PM

If someone who has commited a sin ..confesses to their priest/bishop and are felt to be truely contrite and are prepared to do appropriate pennance, then that sin should be forgiven by the church ...... thats how I understand it.
Am I wrong???
By the way I'm not a Catholic or even a regular church goer
But if forgiveness of sin/absolution is something you believe in then you have to apply it to all sins even ciminal activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 02:16 PM

I'm all for the sins being forgiven..no one has suggested they shouldn't be. They can be forgiven just as well from a jail cell or a mental institution or somewhere where the person can't injure anyone again though. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

nutty: As you might imagine the Sacrament of Reconciliation (to use the jargon) is more complex than just being confessing, being contrite and prepared to do penance. There is also a requirement to 'carefully avoid the occasions of sin'. That is, you must do all you can keep out the situations where you might be tempted to sin again. Where the priest is molesting children, there is no way he can avoid the temptation just by being moved to another parish. That is one reason the Church is failing the priest as well as the children by protecting him in this way.

There is also the matter of setting an appropriate penance. Requiring him to turn himself in at the local police station seems the right start to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:26 PM

There is an interesting article at salon.com - "Confessions of a Former Celibate". It's germane to the topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM

There was a program on TV last week about problems at British mosques. Part of it was about financial difficulties where an imam takes over an asset provided by the congregation. The other was about child abuse. Same problem in different circumstances, with no celibacy to disguise the issue. Is it a power thing?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 05:24 PM

Personally, I think it is symptomatic of a deeper situation: pathetic, ineffective religions with no more grasp of spirtuality than a dog has of house-wiring.

If religions were capable of resolving spiritual difficulties effectively, would they breed bizarre sexual consuct?

Instead they rely on authoritarian mandates , doctrines demanding blind adherence to impossible models of the world with only the most superficial routines for providing spiritual help.

What they DO have in much larger degree is ordinary human kindness, but that is not the same thing. And you don't need religion to practice that, for cryyii!! .

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

So maybe this issue is not confined to the catholic, nor even the Christian church. But what is so particularly despicable about the catholic church is that (contrary to what Misophist said in respect of churches in general) it does indeed set its clergy apart.

They are elevated to a supra-human level as agents of Christ, so much so that women are deemed unfit to do the job. (Except that in the face of a desperate shortage of clergy, women are now allowed to ferry the precious flesh around in their handbags and minister it to those who can't make it to mass.)

Most obnoxious of all, the laity of the catholic church is required to disburden its most intimate transgressions to these people, in the sacrament of confession. Truly a pervert's paradise.

It gave the church fantastic leverage in mediaeval times, an effect still in evidence as recently as 20 years ago in some primitively catholic communities, not least in rural Ireland.

Fortunately episodes like the exposure of Bishop Eamonn Casey and the convicting of Father Brendan Smyth have changed all that. (It was procrastination in sending Smyth north to face justice for 30 years of abuse that brought down the Irish government in 1994.)

The other thing that sets the catholic church apart is the truly fantastic efforts it has made to protect the guilty, and even facilitate their abusive behaviour, usually by moving them quietly to new parishes where their perversions are wholly unsuspected.

Witness the case of Dr Ward, the forcibly retired archishop of Cardiff, who appointed a priest in the full knowledge that he was an abuser, and who was himself under police investigation for about a year. In a touching show of loyalty, the pope moved heaven and earth to avoid sacking him.

And Sinsull, the problem is not new. What is new is that people have been brave enough to speak out, and stick to their guns, even in the face of the sactimonious arrogance, indifference and even contempt with which their complaints have been met by the catholic hierarchy.

Thanks largely to that brave few, it has become much easier for others to speak out, and now the floodgates are wide open. In Ireland the catholic church has recently offered to pay out £70m (yes, seventy million pounds!)to victims of abuse and their families. Many families are outraged even by this gesture, because of the strings attached. It is, in efect, a grubby bribe, to keep the whole pile of shit from getting into court. (Does that answer your question gnu?)

each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is - well fair enough, DmG, but for my money anyone who stays within the fold does so knowing full well what kind of a hierarchy they've got. Since catholics by definition believe in God, why not settle for a relationship with God and let the churh take a back seat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

"each individual Catholic needs to decide..." A millennium ago the Gnostics believed each person had the right to decide and communicate with God without the medium of the Church hierarchy- and they were wiped out for their heresy. But that has nothing to do with the problem of perverts in positions of responsibility, regardless of Church affiliation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMG at Work
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:00 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMG at Work
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM

Whoops, I had decided this thread had about reached the end of its life, so I apologise for sending a blank message and restarting it. But now that I have, one final word from me!

Fionn said each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is - well fair enough, DmG, but for my money anyone who stays within the fold does so knowing full well what kind of a hierarchy they've got. Since catholics by definition believe in God, why not settle for a relationship with God and let the churh take a back seat?

I agree - that is precisely the sort of decision they may have to make. But many peoples direct experience is more like SINSULLs opening paragraphs. Also, because of the real world we live in, many Catholics' social lives are caught up in this, and leaving the Church could involve, to a greater or lessor extent, cutting themselves off from some long standing friendships when their own local Church may be entirely innocent. It is not easy.

Dicho: I said individual Catholics must decide their relationship with the Church not with God. I reckon I have escaped the Inquistion on this one, but no doubt they can get me for something else!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

The only solution is for Catholics to rise up and insist that from here on, the Church does not 'police' its own. 'Render unto Caeser what is Caesar's' is not just about worldly money but about worldly criminality. It is not up to the bishop what's to be done about such 'sins', it is up to prosecutors. And a bishop who seizes such public authority needs to find himself stripped of church authority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

That makes a lot of sense, Guest; after all it is patently kinda absurd for a "spiritual" leader to be shielded for the most heinous of fleshly sins, while poppycocking about on issues such as adultery and abstinence. A commitment to sheilding them, I would offer, is tantamount to a commitment to betraying any glimmer of genuine purpose in the institution itself, since what is being so energetically protected is the betrayal of the deepest trust.

Of course this might mean a number of guys in pointy hats end up getting ten to life, but, hey, you take your chances when you opt for a life of crime, no matter how fancifully you pretend it isn't so.

Down deep, even the most violent criminals did what they did believing it was the right choice of the moment, given all factors. The problem was they had no perspective from which to weigh their factors against values or more enduring "truths". This perspective is one of the products of spiritual leadership. When the leaders themselves cannot or will not provide it, it is a clear symptom of deep distress in the premises, practices, and insights of the organization.

'Nuff said.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

it just got worse..

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020318/wr_nm/crime_pornography_dc_2&printer=1


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:25 PM

That link above is worth following. Click here for an easy way in. Non-USA catters who, like me, are not fully up to speed with what's going on over there might like to avail themselves of the search engine. I entered "bishop" and "priests" with impressive results.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:33 PM

Well, it isn't that it just got worse, Mary -- it was worse and to some tiny degree it just got better -- first of all because of the exposure, pardon the term, and second of all because of the busts. I think more people should think about busts and exposure! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

Hi Amos, unfortunately it's difficult for me to think of the Police forces, and Govt. officials, and Children's Aid societies (in Canada) who should have been on the side of the kids, but chose to protect the shamefully guilty for so many years. The perpetrators were driven by hormones, but the rest are always driven by conscious, well thought out decisions. It no longer makes me ill (it used to), it simply makes me have no respect for any and all authority.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

The Washington Post article: porn ring
The Washington Post, a fine newspaper, may not be known to many outside the United States. It carries all of the best editorial cartoons from the top newspapers, news of all kinds, many of the daily and Sunday comics, etc. etc. Use their site search to find things. No registration required. Home page: Post
The New York Times home page: NY Times
The home web sites clickies are to www.washingtonpost.com and www.nytimes.com. Much to enjoy on both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:22 AM

Kat - I hope I'm misreading your post, but I think a lot of people would be dismayed about your reference to gay men. Homosexuality does not equate with pedophilia! These people are perverts, not gays.

Just thought I'd point that out.
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM

Point out what you like michaelr, but try reading Kat's post again. More slowly.

In the last hour, BBC TV has broadcast a catholic scandal of horrific proportions. I knew it was coming up and had assumed it was the case that gave rise to this thread. But no, it was a completely different scandal! As usual the arrogance of the seniors, most specifically a Bishop Brendan Comiskey (who is still in post), was breathtaking. And the shattered lives these criminals have left in their wake (at least three of which ended in suicide) was upsetting to behold.

I would urge anyone remotely interested in the catholic church to follow this link to the relevant page on the BBC website. (It's a site that leaves the WP site standing Dicho - and it's their own stuff, not agency copy.*G*)

For anyone who really doesn't want to follow the link, I will just say that the most damning indictment came from a Father Tom Daly who worked in the Vatican's Washington embassy until being shunted out because he wouldn't fall in with the church's cover-up policy. According to Daly the hierarchy was not merely arrogant but actively aggressive, directly and via attorneys, towards victims of abuse and their families.

A Church? It's a ring of paedophiles in extravagant frocks. Daly said that to his own knowledge the pope himself had been briefed on many allegations against clergy in the USA if not elsewhere. One of the victims in the Beeb report is suing the whole damn lot of them, including the pope. More strength to his elbow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:30 PM

crap like this has nothing to do with hormones or celibacy or anything sexual.....it has to do with power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:34 PM

I think ;that is nonsense. It has to do with twisted hormones and twisted thoughts and celibacy in the sense that their terror of normal sex makes other stuff almost OK in comparison. But people who want power don't aspire to buggering helpless boys in the confessional. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM

that is pure and simple bullshit, mary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM

What has all this vitriol and venom got to do with Traditional Music?
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:16 PM

The distortions of power in th espiritual racket are many. It might help to recall that those whose sins are now in the headlines were themselves so violently abused, whether physically or emotionally, that they were able to fall into such a criminal position. This makes it no less forgiveable, certainly. But these are people whose whole sense of power has been deeply twisted and wrenched into a perversion , which they then perpetuate and dramatize.

I think you'll find that celibacy does contribute some part to the syndrome, if I may use that word, because as an authoritarian enforcement it can easily become aperversion of its own no matter how spiritual it may have seemed at first blush (so to speak). But I don't think it is core.

Rick -- forgive me if I implied I feel otherwise about complancency and collusion on anyone's part in such a sordid tragedy. I think they should all be sold down the river and made to wash cookpots the rest opf their days. I was simply glad to see the ugly business opened up to a little daylight.

Regards,

A


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