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Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?

DigiTrad:
DO YE KEN JOHN PEEL?
D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL [parody]


In Mudcat MIDIs:
John Peel ( -W. Metcalfe's version, 1868. This is referred to in more detail above; bear in mind that the tune usually used nowadays is just the third part (refrain) of the original. )
Red House (ancestral to 'Do YOu Ken John Peel' from Playford's Dancing Master (1706). The tune first appeared in the edition of 1695 in a slightly different form. )
Tycoch Caerdydd (The Red House of Cardiff) ( -from Alawon Fy Ngwlad, c.1896. Described as a pib-ddawns (pipe-dance). ancestral to John Peel)
Where Will Our Goodman Laye (from Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion for the Flute, vol.II, c.1750. ancestral to 'John Peel')


Stilly River Sage 03 Feb 12 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,bob siecker 0414653209 australia 03 Feb 12 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,kendall 22 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Robin Tell 22 Jun 11 - 11:30 AM
Matthew Edwards 19 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM
Susanne (skw) 18 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM
Sue Allan 15 Oct 09 - 06:30 PM
Sue Allan 15 Oct 09 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,roberta 15 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Rebecca Sim 24 Sep 09 - 07:37 AM
Paul Davenport 23 Sep 09 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Rebecca Sim 23 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Rebecca Sim 23 Sep 09 - 08:30 AM
Sue Allan 27 Jul 09 - 04:41 PM
Tug the Cox 27 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM
Tug the Cox 27 Jul 09 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Rebecca 27 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM
Jim Dixon 27 Mar 09 - 12:34 AM
GUEST, Sminky 06 May 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,PMB 22 Jan 08 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,PMB 22 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM
Mr Happy 22 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,f0xldy 28 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,Sue Allan 19 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM
greg stephens 19 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,meself 19 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Sue Allan 19 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM
GUEST 19 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM
Snuffy 19 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM
Mr Red 19 Jun 07 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Young Buchan 19 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 18 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Sue Allan 18 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM
GUEST 18 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 18 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Marij Sak 18 Jun 07 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,Sue Allan 04 Feb 07 - 11:55 AM
greg stephens 04 Feb 07 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Sue Allan 04 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Jim in Tucson, Arizona, USA 22 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Elizabeth 10 Aug 06 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Elizabeth 10 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM
Barry Finn 06 Apr 06 - 08:00 PM
Susanne (skw) 06 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM
cambo 05 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM
Le Scaramouche 24 Jul 05 - 02:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,kirsty_tearney@hotmail.co.uk 24 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Sep 03 - 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 11:29 PM

Read from the top, Guest Bob, and you'll find an answer.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,bob siecker 0414653209 australia
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 08:55 PM

ive just discovered an old drawing of a boy on a horse and under the drawing it says DYE KEN JOHN PEEL?.............can anybody tell me about it


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM

When I was in 6th grade in school I had a teacher who was into folk music. John Peel was one of the songs she taught us.

One line I remember was...Do ye ken John Peel ......he lived at Trouthbeck once on a day, but now he's gone away far away we will na're hear his hounds in the morning.

Rachael Higgins, I will always remember and love you.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Robin Tell
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 11:30 AM

Pardon me if I'm being thick, which is likely. People repeatedly note that the common tune now is that of only the refrain in Metcalfe's tune; but where is there any refrain in these lyrics?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

Here's another go at a link to Sue Allan's excellent article Song Hunters and Foxhunters: John Peel and Cumbrian Identity. The appendix gives the original Cumberland dialect version of the song as written by John Woodcock Graves which I find much more vigourous than the verision I learned at school.

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM

Still doesn't work for me! Could you write it out, please, Sue?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:30 PM

Oops, link didn't work - here it is again:
Song Hunters and Foxhunters: John Peel and Cumbrian Identity


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:28 PM

Goodness, first time I've seen a version with HAIR so grey! It should of course be his coat. This is one of the earliest other versions fo the song I have ever seen Paul, but post-dates the occasion that William Metcalfe sang his version of the song at an event in London, which began the popularisation of the song - although it was the occasion he sang it for the Prince of Wales in 1874 which really made it top of the Victorian pops. More in my paper for a postgraduate history conference at Lancaster University in 2008 (and later revised for a Leeds University conference 'Music and the Spirit of the North' (but please note they've, irritatingly, spelt my name wrong: surname should be Allan NOT Allen). Here's the link to it: Song Hunters and Fox Hunters: John Peel and Cumbrian Identity

PS Rebecca - have contacted you on Facebook


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,roberta
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM

robert peels family was originally from peel fold in bolton, north west england. i'm also meant to be related to john peel, though my grandfather, not found any details yet, may just be a family story but i have got back to the Lees of Kendal eary 1800 so far.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 07:37 AM

Hi Paul

I have just been doing some more reading up on John Peel, and various versions of the song. I believe it became quite popular with cockneys at one point, of course many of them would not be familiar with John Peel, or the Lake District; in fact some of them thought he was a myth! Anyway, in the cockney version I saw it used 'Troutbeck' and 'once a day' in it.....maybe you have uncovered a manuscript of the version cockney's used to sing???

Rebecca


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:41 PM

Just to add a little confusion to this thread, here's a version noted down in a manuscript notebook in the possession of a friend of mine. She produced this book the other day as we were having tea. I nearly fell of my chair to see this;

JOHN PEEL

Did ye ken John Peel with his hair so grey
He lived at Troutbeck once on a day
But now he has gone, far, far away
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

        For the sound of his horn brings me from my bed
        And the cry of his pack he has often led
        John Peel's view holloa will awake the dead
        And the fox from his lair in the morning

Yes, I ken John Peel with his hair so grey
He lived at Troutbeck once on a day
But now he has gone, far, far away
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

Did ye ken that hound whose voice is death
Did ye ken her sons of equal birth
How oft has the fox with his latest breath
Cursed those hounds as he died in the morning

Yes I ken that hound whose voice was true
Ratlin, Reefer and Belmont too
From a find to a chase, from a chase to a view
From a view to a kill in the morning

Yes I ken John Peel with his coat so red
But now both himself and his hounds are fled
All, all far away, far away have sped
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

Then here's to John Peel with my heart and soul
Fill up, fill up another bowl
We'll follow John Peel through fair and through foul
When we're wanting a hunt in the morning

From the ms. Notebook of Mary Beresford Sherbrooke of Oxton Notts.
Who died in 1887 aged 78 years.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM

Oh Sue, John was my Great, Great, Great, Great Uncle LOL

Rebecca.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:30 AM

Hi Sue, are you on facebook?
I'm on there under Rebecca Elizabeth Sim if you want to look me up, I'm not a member on here and can't work out how to PM you, LOL.
Plus I don't really want to post my email on here, I'm sure you understand.....
I am descended from John Peel's sister Lettice Peel.

Thanks,
Rebecca.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:41 PM

Hi Guest Rebecca - why don't you PM me... we must be related! John Peel was my great, great, great, great, great uncle. My grandmother was a Peel. Her mother apparently always used to complain "Ah divvent knaw why they aal gan on aboot John Peel - he was nobbut an auld drunkard!"
I've also written an article and academic paper about him and can email if you let me know your address.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?
Film Information
        
Titles         D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?
CAPTAIN MOONLIGHT
Main Director         HENRY EDWARDS
Year         1935
Length         81 Minutes
Countries         United Kingdom
Genre         Drama
Series         
Actors         JOHN GARRICK
WINIFRED SHOTTER
STANLEY HOLLOWAY
JOHN STUART
MARY LAWSON
LESLIE PERRINS
MORRIS HARVEY
CHARLES CARSON
WILFRED CAITHNESS
Directors         HENRY EDWARDS
Director Of Photography         SYDNEY BLYTHE


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

The Pepsi jingle is solid in my memory, from childhood, and I have it as being slightly different from what Farrara and Bill D. posted.

It went:

Pepsi-Cola hits the spot
Twelve full ounces, that's a lot
Twice as much for nickel too       (Comment: Remember nickel soft drinks?
Pepsi-Cola is the drink for you!
RAH-duh-dah-dah
DAH-duh-dah-dah
DAH-dahhh-duh-DOT!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 11:42 AM

I remeber seeing an old black and white 'biopic' of John Peel.



   The tune is used for
'cats on the rooftops,
   cats on the tiles,
   cats with the clap and cats with piles ( etc.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM

Hi
I am a 'lateral descendant' of John Peel. (I am descended from his niece Nancy Peel, who married a Todhunter). I read this site with interest. There is a decent book about the Lake District which has a chapter dedicated to Peel, I must dig it out so I can put the title on here.
I can confirm though that he did at times hunt on horseback, and his pony was called Dunny, and stood at 14hh. He would often leave Dunny for hours at a time when the terrain was too rough for the ponies to continue; and Dunny would wait patiently for his master to return. My ancestor Nancy was brought up by Peel as one of his own, and she used to hunt with him regualarly wearing a green tweed habit and rode a grey pony.
The book I mention also mentions the tale about him catching a hare single handed with a whip.
He also left the house early one morning when they were due to bury one of his sons. Naturally his family were aghast, but Peel had brought back a fox's brush, which he thought a fitting trophy for his boy's last journey.
He also was determined to attend the horse fair at Rosley while his wife was in labour with twin girls!!!
Quite the character, and I get the impression he liked a drink and was 'loud and lairy', but I think behind it all he only meant well.
Rebecca


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Subject: Lyr Add: D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL? (John Woodcock Graves
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 12:34 AM

From The Songs and Ballads of Cumberland edited by Sidney Gilpin (London: Geo. Routledge and Sons, 1866):

JOHN WOODCOCK GRAVES.
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL FRAGMENT.

...Nearly forty years have now wasted away since John Peel and I sat in a snug parlour at Caldbeck among the Cumbrian mountains. We were then both in the hey-day of manhood, and hunters of the olden fashion; meeting the night before to arrange earth stopping; and in the morning to take the best part of the hunt—the drag over the mountains in the mist—while fashionable hunters still lay in the blankets. Large flakes of snow fell that evening. We sat by the fireside hunting over again many a good run, and recalling the feats of each particular hound, or narrow neck-break 'scapes, when a flaxen-haired daughter of mine came in saying, "Father, what do they say to what granny sings?" Granny was singing to sleep my eldest son—now a leading barrister in Hobart Town—with a very old rant called Bonnie (or Cannie) Annie. The pen and ink for hunting appointments being on the table, the idea of writing a song to this old air forced itself upon me, and thus was produced, impromptu, D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gray. Immediately after I sung it to poor Peel who smiled through a stream of tears which fell down his manly cheeks; and I well remember saying to him in a joking style, "By Jove, Peel, you'll be sung when we're both run to earth."

As to John Peel's general character I can say little. He was of a very limited education beyond hunting. But no wile of a fox or hare could evade his scrutiny; and business of any shape was utterly neglected, often to cost far beyond the first loss. Indeed this neglect extended to the paternal duties in his family. I believe he would not have left the drag of a fox on the impending death of a child, or any other earthly event. An excellent rider, I saw him once on a moor put up a fresh hare and ride till he caught her with his whip. You may know that he was six feet and more, and of a form and gait quite surprising, but his face and head somewhat insignificant. A clever sculptor told me that he once followed, admiring him, a whole market day before he discovered who he was....

Peel was generous as every true sportsman ever must be. He was free with the glass "at the heel of the hunt;" but a better heart never throbbed in man. His honour was never once questioned in his life-time. In the latter part of his life his estate was embarrassed, but the right sort in all Cumberland called a meet some years since, and before parting they sang John Peel in full chorus, closing by presenting him with a handsome gratuity which empowered him to shake off his encumbrances, and die with a "hark tally-ho!"

SONGS BY JOHN WOODCOCK GRAVES.

D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?

[AIR: "Bonnie (or Cannie) Annie."—The history of this celebrated hunting song is very curious, as will be seen by reference to the interesting autobiographical sketch of its author. Thirty years since no person could walk through the streets of Carlisle, without hearing some one or other either whistling the air, or singing the song. Since then its popularity has spread far and wide. It has been chanted wherever English hunters have penetrated in the world. It was heard in the soldiers' camps at the siege of Lucknow, and was lately sung before the Prince of Wales. Stray copies, and generally imperfect ones, have got into the newspapers; but it now appears for the first time in a general collection. The hunt is supposed to commence at Low Denton-holme, near Caldbeck—thence across a rugged stretch of country in a south-easterly direction—and bold reynard is finally run into on the heights of Scratchmere Scar, near Lazonby.—The old rant of "Bonnie Annie" is obsolete.]

D'YE ken John Peel with his coat so gray?
D'ye ken John Peel at the break of the day?
D'ye ken John Peel when he's far, far away,
With his hounds and his horn in the morning?

[CHORUS] 'Twas the sound of his horn call'd me from my bed,
And the cry of his hounds has me oft-times led;
For Peel's view holloa would 'waken the dead,
Or a fox from his lair in the morning.

D'ye ken that bitch whose tongue is death?
D'ye ken her sons of peerless faith?
D'ye ken that a fox with his last breath
Curs'd them all as he died in the morning?

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

Yes, I ken John Peel and auld Ruby, too,
Ranter and Royal and Bellman as true;*
From the drag to the chase, from the chase to the view,
From the view to the death in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

And I've follow'd John Peel both often and far,
O'er the rasper-fence and the gate and the bar,
From Low Denton-holme up to Scratchmere Scar,
When we vied for the brush in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

Then, here's to John Peel with my heart and soul,
Come fill—fill to him another strong bowl:
And we'll follow John Peel thro' fair and thro' foul
While we're wak'd by his horn in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

---

* These were the real names of the hounds which Peel in his old age said were the very best he ever had or saw. —J. W. G.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:28 AM

I have just picked up a copy of 'Round Carlisle Cross' by James Walter Brown, (this edition was published in 1951, 21 years after the author's death).

There is a chapter devoted to William Metcalfe which includes the following passage:

[quote]
it was through his association with the hunting song, "John Peel", that Metcalfe's name will be longest remembered, and it now remains to relate how that arose. About this I claim to speak with authority, for I was on terms of intimate friendship with those concerned in the matter, and often discussed it with them.

Up till 1868 the song, as I have said, was sung to the notes of the present refrain. In June of that year my old friend John Clarkson, who was one of that group of clever amateur entertainers whom I have already mentioned, was, on the point of his leaving Carlisle, entertained to a farewell dinner. On that occasion the late Mr.William Lattimer, younger brother of the better known Robert Lattimer, sang John Woodcock Grave's song ,"D'ye ken John Peel". Metcalfe was at once struck by its adaptability as a capital hunting song. Later he went to Mr.Lattimer's residence, at Holme Head, and took down the music from Mr.Lattimer's singing. He then, after considerable research, found the music of the Scotch "rant" "Bonnie Annie" which was in Grave's mind when he wrote the song, and from that air Metcalfe composed the tune as it now exists.
[end quote]


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:08 AM

Michael Coleman with phase- shifting piano playing Trim the Velvet.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Did you ever hear any of the Michael Coleman (Sligo fiddler) original recordings? Brilliant fiddle, with an absolute atrocity of a piano in the background. The only reason they finished together was because the track ran out. I think it could be the same pianist (pronounced however you like).


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Subject: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM

Click where it says 'midi' to hear this unique rendition!

http://jc.tzo.net/~jc/cgi/abc/tuneget?F=MIDI&U=/~jc/music/abc/mirror/kirby98.fsnet.co.uk/jo/John_Peel_Variations_1.abc&X=1&T=JOH


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,f0xldy
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM

Hey group...wow! what a great collection of info I have found from all of y'all. yes, Im from the South (Virginia) in USA! I was researching hunting songs, of coures John Peel is one and I have found much more info here. Where on the net might I also find anyone actually singing some of these great songs? There really should be a collection of them so we "newbies" can learn to sing along while toasting one (or 2) in the name of the sport! My grandfather hunted fox on foot so John Peel holds a gentle spot in my heart! In recap, Ive learned of hunting songs (besides John Peel)of:
"The Horn of the Hunter", "Joe Bowman", "Bellman","The Marndale Hunt","The Six Fell Packs" as well as "Boots and Saddles" and "A-Hunting We Will Go" from other sources. Can anyone add to this or correct these titles if Ive errored on them? Haven't seen mention of it anywhere on Mudcat, but there is a book on the life of John Peel entitled: "John Peel, Famous in Sport and Song" by Hugh Machell. I just found my copy on ebay but havent read it yet. Thanks for any more help with extra song titles and I'll look forward to checking back for MORE! Tally ho...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM

You're right Greg: I was over-egging the pudding in the interests of getting over the point that the fell packs are not your 'gentrified' Southern type of hunt!

Peel's hunting territory was in fact much wider than that of the current six fell packs, and although the Blencathra Foxhounds traditionally declare their hounds to be the descendents of Peel's hounds and they are 'the John Peel pack' - and they hunt on foot - they don't cover anywhere near the same ground and go the distances that Peel would have done. His territory extended to that included in today's mounted packs - the Cumberland and the Cumberland Farmers hunts.

John Peel and his cronies would have been on foot when they needed to, on the higher fells, and on horses (Peel's was called Dunny) to cover the ground in the pasture lands below the fells and heading out over the Solway Plain. The horses would have been sturdy, a little bigger than fell ponies - and faster - but not as big as those used by mounted packs today.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM

Hunting in the actual lake district (the mountainous area in Cumbria to the west of the Lune and Eden valleys) was(sic) carried out on foot. But north of Skiddaw (or back'o'Skidda as he would doubtless have said) it was not quite the same. I think you will find that Peel hunted a great deal on horseback.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Good to have you in the thread, Sue Allan. (Don't worry; some people are reading what you're contributing!).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM

Sorry, forgot to sign my name again. And I am related to John Peel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM

To Mr Red: I repeat that John Peel's coat was grey, made of Herdwick wool ... he was never one of the gentry. The Cumbrian fell packs hunted on foot over the fells (still do, but after aniseed trails these days) and are nothing like mounted hunts in the rest of England, not being made up of the aristos, gentry, monied classes etc.
Oh, and John Peel was not related to Sir Robert Peel.
    Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM

Thanks YB. You can always rely on Mudcat for an answer, even if it did take six years!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:50 AM

FWIW Green coats and Pink coats were usually red

because Mr Pink and Mr Green were rival tailors to the hunting oi paloi.

And Sir Robert Peel is buried (he and the other Robert Peels that are descended from him) in Drayton Bassett churchyard about 100 yards from my cousin's house.
He owned the estate that is now (what is left of it) the Drayton Manor Park funfair type pleasure ground.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

Snuffy: That song, or a close version of it, was collected by Alfred Williams in the Oxfordshire area probably before the First World War, and was published in Folk Songs of the Upper Thames in 1922. His informant referred to it as the OLD John Peel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

Thank you for that clarification. Too bad I had to wait 57 years to find out that our songbook authors were ill-informed. If I didn't suspect research sloppiness, I could write it off to clerical error. However, knowing our public schools...........


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

Oops sorry, didn't mean to make that last post anonymous, I was over-keen to correct mistakes and misapprehensions about John Peel!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

John Peel was a yeoman farmer in the north of the Lake District in Cumbria (he lived at Ruththwaite, near Ireby, and is buried at Caldbeck), and he never 'led the gentry' - he ran a pack of fell hounds. Their descendants are hounds of the Blencathra Hunt, who still do their hunting on foot in the fells, as John Peel did most of the time. His coat was not 'gay', it was gray - being made of the wool of the local Herdwick sheep. 'Ken' is Cumbrian as well as Scottish, and mean 'know'. Oh, and he was also my great-great-great-great-great uncle.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

I learned this little ditty in the fifth grade, which would have been in 1950. It was in a standard school songbook at the time. We were told that "John Peel" was the sobriquet of the huntsman with his hounds, leading the gentry on a fox hunt. The chorus was approximately as follows:

"D'ye ken John Peel at the break of day?
D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gay?
D'ye ken John Peel, when he's far, far away,
With his hounds and his horse in the morning."

More, I cannot verify. The use of the word "ken" certainly leads toward the likely Scots origin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Marij Sak
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:03 AM

Since this tale of the railings of St. David's Park seems to be spreading may I put it straight! The bars and musical staves are actually on a monument to John Woodcock Graves which was erected in St. David's Park in 1958.
(click)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:55 AM

Greg - your typing's appalling!! (and almost racist here!!!) Please note his album is called Beggar Boy of the North - and it's MUCH better than the Ellen Valley Band one! ( but I'm the only one allowed to say that)

Sue


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:45 AM

If you can locate Sue Allan's article, do so. There's not much about this of thing that Sue doesn't know.
    And, good as the Ellen Valley Band tune medley is, might I also diffidently mention an early(Metcalfe-ish) version of this tune, on the recently reissued record "The Neggar Boy of the North (Greg Stephens and Crookfinger Jack). This is a CD(Harbourtown HARCD051) version of the 70's LP. Incidentally, it contains a rather fetching youthful portrait of the present writer.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM

Sorry can't help you Jim, but I must say reading this complete thread has helped me waste most of a Sunday afternoon. Glad to see there were plenty of people talking sense as well as those who weren't: honorable mention to Malcolm Douglas, Greg Stephens and the person putting everyone right about the Blencathra hunt.

Keith Gregson wrote about the evolution of the song D'ye ken John Peel in 'English Dance & Song' magazine in 1978, focusing particularly on the evolution of the tune - with examples.

I have also written an article on the origins and evolution of the song for a more general audience, with lots of pictures and rather more of a focus on the PEOPLE involved. It will be in the next issue of 'Yesterday' magazine, published by CN Magazines in Cumbria - the history and heritage-led sister magazine of 'Cumbria Life' magazine. This will be out in a couple of weeks time. Here's a link: www.cumbrialife.co.uk/Yesterday/ - but details won't be up there until end Feb.

When I was in the Ellen Valley Band we did medley of three of the versions of the tune: Bonnie Annie/Metcalfe's version of it/National Song Book version (which everyone knows today) on our first album.

Like thousands of other Cumbrians - and Mudcatters - I am also related to Peel: he was my 5xgreat uncle. However, my great grandmother used to say that she didn't know why everyone made such a fuss about John Peel as he was 'nobbut a ne'er-do-well and an owld drunkard'!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Jim in Tucson, Arizona, USA
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM

Was it the truth, or was it just one of my dreams, that "John Peel" was the BBC "General Overseas Service" signature tune (pre-time signal) in the 1948-49 period?

Any help welcomed.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Elizabeth
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:04 AM

Kirsty,

I just noticed that you are related to John Peel!! Is'nt that cool? I'm related to John Woodcock Graves - the man who wrote the song about John Peel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Elizabeth
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM

D'ye ken John Peel was written by John Woodcock Graves. I know this because I am related to him. He was born in 1795 and died in Hobart in 1886. When he came to Australia he was granted alot of land in Bruny Island. He got married twice and came to Australia with his six children. I am unaware if there are any "Graves" left in the family today. There was a memorial service held for him there around the 1950's. I'd like to know where I could get a copy of the song, otherewise I'll have to record it on the piano. If you googlesearch "John Woodcock Graves" you will find a heap of information on him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:00 PM

My daughter just called & sang me a hunting song.

"If you're happy & you know it,,,,shoot a duck".

Barry


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM

The only recording I know of is an old one by The Spinners, on 'Folk at the Phil' (1964). If nobody else sings it over the phone to you I might send you a tape.


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Subject: Do ye ken John Peel recording
From: cambo
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM

I remember being made to learn this song at school, mid fifties and hated it at he time, however grown to like it now.
Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the sung version.

Cambo


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:26 PM

There is a fabulous recording of Arthur(?) Moscrop performing John Peel along with improvised hunting horn sound.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

Thanks, Kirsty. John Peel lives on!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,kirsty_tearney@hotmail.co.uk
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM

while my grandmother was researching our family tree she discovered that john peel is my great x6 grandfather!!! what a discovery!! i thought this might interest you all in some way! p.s this is no joke. i am kirsty tearney from england/newcastle and im 14 years of age. i am proud to find out that john peel is my relation! :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 10:48 AM

Queensland folklore...

Do ye ken John Peel?

was taught in Primary schools in the 1950's as part of the "music Education" stuff... only other song I can remember is...

ahh, "hole in head syndrome" again...

the song about the convicts coming to australia in chains...
which apparently was composed for a musical in the 1800's

last verse was
oh had I the wings of a turtledove,
I'd soar on my pinions so high
straight to the arms of my polly love,
and in her sweet arms I would die.

Ch
Singing, Too - ral i oo ral i addity, etc...
...
and we're bound for botany bay.

mustn't have learnt it so well ... :-)

Robin


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