mudcat.org: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Meaning of 'The Coolin'

Related threads:
Old Gordon Bok song sought-Cuillins of Rhum (13)
Help!Irish:Flower of Baile-anagurr? (25)
(origins) Origins: The Coolin (18)
Lyr Req: The Cuhlin?..or Coolin? (24)
Lyr Req: An Coolan (15)
Lyr Req: Coolin/Cuilin (10)
Recent recordings of 'The Coolin' (16)
Lyr Req: Various: Ned of the Hills, The Coolin... (18)
killin floor-coolin board (2)
Cuillins of Rhum (2)


GUEST,Martin Ryan 22 Apr 03 - 05:40 AM
GUEST,Firínne 22 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 23 Apr 03 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 23 Apr 03 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 23 Apr 03 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 23 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Firínne 23 Apr 03 - 07:35 PM
MartinRyan 24 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,Firínne 24 Apr 03 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 25 Apr 03 - 05:00 AM
Folkiedave 25 Apr 03 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Firínne 25 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM
MartinRyan 28 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 Apr 03 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,liz 06 May 03 - 06:05 PM
MartinRyan 07 May 03 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Desi C 28 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM
keberoxu 25 Nov 15 - 06:39 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:40 AM

Firinne

As mentioned earlier, Carroll Malone's poem was called "The Coolin Forbidden" and has no direct connection with the original. I've never heard it sung - not sure if it was intended to be.

Campion wrote for Thomas Davis' paper The Nation . The style is pretty distinct!
Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Firínne
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM

I don't know much about Carroll Malone, apart from the fact that he wrote 'The Croppy Boy',   the version which starts 'Good men and true in this house who dwell, etc.'.

I have never heard of him being confused with John T. Campion before,   but I HAVE heard that his real name was William McBurney, and that version of 'The Croppy Boy' first appeared in 'The Nation'.

As far as I'm aware,   his version of 'The Coulin' is translated from the Gaelic, he didn't write it.

Maybe Campion DID write a poem called 'The Coolin Forbidden,   but Malone's 'Coulin' was always spelt Coulin, NOT Coolin.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:06 AM

Firinne

Let me check the sources and get back. I have copies of a number of the main 19C. texts and tend to rely on them.

You may well be right about the Campion/Malone/McBurney confusion - I'd lost track of what his real name was - and believed the first source I found!

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:30 AM

Firinne

You're right about "coulin" - my mistake. There's a reference to Carroll Malone's poem "The Coulin Forbidden" in an incomplete online copy of the McCarthy book I referred to HERE .

I remain convinced it is a typically romanitic, Spirit of the Nation response to the earlier translations. Have you seen any reference to a Gaelic original?

Regards

p.s. Curiously enough, I see some suggestion that the pseudonym Carroll Malone was used to cover several authors. I may get a chance to check on this next week.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:49 AM

OK What happened was this: I found Ferguson's version of The Coolin and Carroll Malone's version of The Coulin Forbidden in McCarthy's 1869 book. Having forgotten who Carroll Malone was, I looked up the oldest source I could find - Sparlings Irish Minstrelsy 1898 Edn. Under "Carroll Malone" he simply says "See Campion, J.T". Under Campion, J.T. he makes the connection to The Nation and mentions that he wrote under the pen-name The Kilkennyman ! I assumed he did both! In fact, of course, McBurney (not mentioned by Sparling) is usually taken to be O'Carroll.

McCarthy, incidentally, has TRANSLATED FROM THE IRISH under Ferguson's words - but nothing under Malone's. This tallies with my belief that its not a translation.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

Ah Jaysus, lads! "...usually taken to be Carroll Malone...."

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Firínne
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:35 PM

Martin - you said above that Carroll Malone's 'Coulin' has no direct connection with the original.

How would you know?   Seeing that nobody apparently knows the original in the first place.

It's a matter of conjecture as to whether it was about a beautiful woman or a lock of hair.   Indeed it's a matter of conjecture as to whether there was even words to it at all originally!

As I said in one of the other threads, the tune was claimed to have been composed in 1295, which was when the act was passed by the English government forbidding the English settlers to wear the Coulin.
The only existing Gaelic words date back to 1641, credited to Maurice O'Dugan, a bard from Tyrone.
It was translated by Thomas Furlong, [and I doubt very much if his first language was Irish, as he was a Wexfordman] as follows:

Had you seen my sweet Coulin at the days early dawn,
When she moves through the Wildwood or wide dewy lawn?
There is joy, there is bliss in her soul-cheering smile,
She's the fairest of flowers in our green bosomed isle.

In Balanagar dwells the bright blooming maid,
Retired, like the primrose that blows in the shade;
Still dear to the eye that fair primrose may be,
But dearer and sweeter is my Coulin to me.

Oh, Dearest! thy love from thy childhood, was mine,
Oh, Sweetest! this heart from life's op'ning was thine;
And though coldness by kindred or friends may be shown,
Still, still my sweet Coulin, that heart is thine own.

Thou light of all beauty, be true still to me,
Forsake not thy swain, love though poor he may be;
For rich in affection, in constancy tried,
We may look down on wealth in its pomp and its pride.

I'm not sure if there's more of this, but this is all I have, and quite frankly, it's enough!!   Personally I much prefer Malone's Coulin!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM

Firinne

I'm not concerned, here, with the tune - just trying to disentangle the sets of words.

Can I ask where you saw McBurney's set? The only reference I can find to it is in McCarthy's book - and he makes no comment on its origin, as I mentioned. I'll make some enquiries in the Traditional Music Archive in Dublin, next week, with luck.

Regards

p.s. Mind you, I'd love to see a Gaelic equivalent of "Her palfrey was pillioned"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Firínne
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:50 PM

Martin,
The Carroll Malone [McBurney] version comes from a song page in the 'Irelands Own', dated March 9th, 1963.

The Furlong version comes from an article about 'The Coulin', [which I mentioned in one of the other threads], in an issue of the 'Irelands Own', dated September 14th, 1963.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 05:00 AM

Firinne

Thanks for that. Does the article refer to it specifically as "The Coulin" i.e. without the "Forbidden" tag?

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 05:09 AM

Pete Seeger told Joe Heaney it was the nicest air he ever heard in Ireland. That was Joe's version of course.

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Firínne
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM

Martin,

Yes - it does. The article was written by a Josephine P. Smith, who appeared to be something of an authority on Irish traditional songs and airs. I always found her articles both interesting and informative anyway!

I have to say that I have never heard of the 'Forbidden' tag either, up to now!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM

Firinne

just back from a visit to Dublin - including the Traditional Music Archive. The earliest trace of the Carroll Malone poem I could find was in Mac Carthy's book, where it appears under the "Coulin Forbidden" title. A later American edition has it simply as "The Coulin", as do several other 19 C. collections. It looks like the "forbidden" got dropped fairly soon. Mind you, I think McBurney had left Ireland and most likely knew nothing about it!

Rooting through the old books it is clear that apart from what we might call the mainline song collected by Hardiman, both the tune and the story about the hairstyle caught the imagination of a number of the patriotic writers for The Nation and Young Ireland - Martin McDermott, for example, wrote one.

Furlong, incidentally, did have Irish, as far as I can make out. He was one of several translators/versifiers used by Hardiman the collector - who was a native speaker.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:13 AM

I also asked Frank Harte about this one. He was aware of the story of the banning - but had never heard/heard of either a song or a poem about it.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,liz
Date: 06 May 03 - 06:05 PM

a message for Martin Ryan, Firinnes computer is off line at the moment and she will get back to you as soom as possible


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:27 AM

Thanks, liz

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

CHÚILFHIONN was a hairstyle worn by Irish men dating before the 1400's an outlawed as all things Irish were at the time as the "Plantation" of Ireland was underway and thus began the 800 years of rule.

Irish men were required by law to shave their long flowing tresses know as the CHÚILFHIONN or... Coolin.

Thomas moore wrote words to the Air in around 1800,s that originated in around this time but no one really knows when and became known as "The FAIR haired One"

The music or tune is a piece of genuine genius from a time that no one can remember.

This is fact. This is the origin. This is the Coolin.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

Bredan Behan's version .....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRFWEVDjxo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

Bredan Behan's version ... here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRFWEVDjxo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:32 PM

Whether this is a translation, a reinterpretation or a travesty, I've felt for a woman like this (sadly it doesn't fit the tune as I play it- that was nicked from Leo Rowsome):

Have you seen my fair-haired girl walking the roads
A bright dewy morning without a smudge on her shoes?
There is many a young man envious and longing to marry her
But they won't get my treasure
.....no matter what they think.


Have you seen my beautiful woman, a fine day and she is alone
Her hair curling and twining, hanging down about her shoulders?
Sweet young woman with the rosy blush on her brow
And every worthless man hopes she will be his lover.


Have you seen my maid beside the sea
Gold rings on her fingers she is making up her mind?
Mr. Power, who is the master of a ship, said
He would prefer to have her than the whole of Ireland.

Nicked from here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

The song you may be referring to is one of my favourites, it's The Spinning Wheel, where in one verse The Grandmother says to the heartstruck girl
'what makes you be shoving and moving your stoool on, and singing all wrong, that old song of the Coolin'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Meaning of 'The Coolin'
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:39 PM

This is the English version by James Clarence Mangan. As Martin Ryan remarked in an earlier message on this thread, this version is a short one at only three verses. There is formal rhythm and rhyme in Mangan's version. Thus it is likely not to be all that accurate a translation from the Gaelic. I cannot answer the inevitable question, whether or not Mangan's English is intended to fit any tune, if it is singable to a melody associated with the original. After data-entry of Mangan's English versions, I will conclude this post with bibliography source; it is from the Collected Works of James Clarence Mangan, which has only been around since the 1990's.

T H E    C O O L U N    An Cul Fionn: "The maiden of the fair flowing locks"

Have you e'er seen the Coolun when daylight's declining,
With sweet fairy features, and shoes brightly shining?
Though many's the youth her blue eyes have left pining,
She slights them, for all their soft sighing and whining.

Have you e'er on a summer's day, wandering over
The hills, O, young man, met my beautiful rover?
Sun-bright is the neck that her golden locks cover --
Yet each paltry creature thinks she is his lover!

Have you e'er seen my Fair, on the strand, in her bower,
With gold-ringed hands, culling flower after flower?
O! nobly he said it, brave Admiral Power,
That her hand was worth more than all Erin for dower.

pp. 169 - 170, Volume 4, The Collected Works of James Clarence Mangan: Poems
(Volume 4 covers 1848 - 1912 publications, mostly posthumous)
Author: James Clarence Mangan
Editors: Jacques Chuto, Tadhg O Dushlaine, Peter Van de Kamp
Publisher: Dublin, and Portland OR: Irish Academic Press, 1999

Endnote: "Admiral Power": this character has not been identified.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 3 December 5:53 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.