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Origins: Reynardine: Info?

DigiTrad:
REYNARDINE
REYNARDINE 2


Related threads:
Lyr/Chords Req: Bert Jansch: Reynardine (8)
Lyr Req: Reynardine (from Pentangle) (15)
Tune Req: Reynardine.tef file (8)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
One Night Upon My Rambles (first published in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (vol. I, number 3, 1904). W. Percy Merrick got it from Henry Hills (c. 1831-1901), of Lodsworth, near Petworth in Sussex. He had learned it from his mother tune used for Reynardine (2))
Reynardine (Donegal tune, as published by Herbert Hughes.)
Reynardine (version sung by A.L. Lloyd, which he had originally from Tom Cook, of Eastbridge, Suffolk. Tune collected by Merrick from Henry Hills, a Sussex farmer." )


Steve Gardham 16 Aug 15 - 04:51 AM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 15 - 01:35 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM
Felipa 15 Aug 15 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 11 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Nerd at work 11 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM
Gwenzilla 11 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM
Malcolm Douglas 11 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Lighter 10 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Nerd at work 10 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Lighter 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Lighter at work 08 Dec 05 - 09:44 AM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Dec 05 - 02:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Dec 05 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,PRKJ 07 Dec 05 - 11:44 PM
Scotus 28 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM
freda underhill 28 Apr 05 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Yorkie Bartram 28 Apr 05 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Nerd 02 Mar 05 - 10:25 PM
michaelr 01 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM
Stephen R. 01 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Aged 01 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Lighter at work 25 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM
Muttley 25 Feb 05 - 02:30 AM
Gray D 24 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM
Gray D 24 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Muttley, GUEST 24 Feb 05 - 08:03 AM
Nerd 24 Feb 05 - 02:05 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Feb 05 - 12:33 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Feb 05 - 11:27 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Feb 05 - 11:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Feb 05 - 10:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Feb 05 - 09:53 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM
michaelr 22 Feb 05 - 10:05 PM
Grab 22 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM
Nerd 22 Feb 05 - 12:43 AM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM
michaelr 21 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM
Desert Dancer 21 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM
Desert Dancer 21 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM
Weasel Books 03 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Jane 02 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,maranjo 11 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM
Nerd 07 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 04:51 AM

Yes, my comment is on the suggestion that the song could somehow be based on something from Broadway. To me the original is much more likely to be Irish.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:35 AM

I combined threads, so Steve's comment about the bizarre suggestion might be hard to understand. I think he's talking about this message, which was posted above. Martin Ryan and Malcolm Douglas comment on it above, both with at least mild disbelief:
    Thread #4260   Message #728950
    Posted By: whitefell
    13-Jun-02 - 01:42 AM
    Thread Name: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
    Subject: reynardine (again)

    Hello, I'm familiar with this song. Still, I'm not sure, is this a bit of a lycanthropic theme (werewolf or animal)? I've always liked it and the tune,I''m trying to write a short story about a shapeshifter and wonder, would the lyrics be appropriate? patti I know you all have discussed this song before, have looked at the message threads. Still, I wonder if anyone has something new to add. Thanks

Is that the one you're referring to, Steve?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: reynardine
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM

Just about every British printer of broadsides printed it, from the late 18thc onwards. Almost all versions mention Pomeroy (Co. Tyrone) in the first line. I haven't got any early Irish printings but no doubt they existed. The normal route for such material was originated in Ireland (often the north) and brought into England via Liverpool and dispersed from there northwards and southwards and fairly soon across the Atlantic.. The earliest version I've seen is titled 'Rinordin, or The Mountains High' (British library).

Early 19thc versions were printed by Nathaniel Coverley of Boston and then by the 1840s in such as The Forget-me-not Songster, but still with Pomeroy as the setting.

The above suggestion is somewhat bizarre!


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Subject: RE: reynardine
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 04:13 PM

I would have like to add this link to the thread on origins of Reynardine or the one requesting information on Reynardine. Both are closed, I know not why.


Rhinordine
http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-Rhinordine.html suggests the song is not of European origin,not as old as some people think:

"Rhinordine has an interesting history, as delineated by Jon Pankake in his notes to the Smithsonian-Folkways CD 40040, The New Lost City Ramblers, Vol. 2 -- Out Standing In Their Field (buy the album for the full story). Jon uses the history of Rhinordine (which is not sung by the Ramblers) as an example of the commerce between professional entertainers and the folk. For us city performers, the 'original' source is the Gant Family, Austin, Texas, 1934, recorded by John and Alan Lomax, Library of Congress AAFS 67A2. The ballad probably originated in England (or perhaps France, if you take seriously the English spelling "Reynardine" to signify the foxy French). He's a long-lived supernatural being (perhaps the Wandering Jew of European folklore?) who has a castle on the mountain and a penchant for innocent young girls. The ballad has been collected throughout the British Isles, Newfoundland, and the southern U.S. The twist to the story is that a text published in The American Songster, 1836, one hundred years before the Gants, is almost identical to the Gant's version. The book described it, not as an old ballad, but a 'Modern and Popular song,' performed on Broadway!

"Its existence in the intervening century is a mystery. There are also some surprises in the text. The narrator (Rhinordine himself) waits until the end to hint at his identity, and the song avoids the usual moral message about mountaintop rakes. We would expect such techniques from the Muse of tradition, but not from the Broadway stage.

"Although usually called 'Reynardine' by Folk Revival singers, the common title of this piece in tradition is 'Rinordine' and under that title it is Laws P15. Laws lists versions from Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Vermont, and West Virginia, as well as Nova Scotia. He also lists assorted broadsheets and songsters. Interestingly, only one version from Britain is known.

"The above version# is unusual in that it lacks the ending in which Rinordine disappears, leaving the girl to warn others against the mysterious (supernatural?) figure.

"Despite its British 'look,' it seems likely that the Broadway version mentioned by Lyle is in fact the original, or nearly, and that all the traditional versions derive from that."

#Rhinordine

As I rode out this morning,
Three miles from old Saint Croix,
I spied a farmer's daughter
Here on this mountain high.
Her ivory cheeks, her ruby lips,
Her face it looked so fair,
I said, "my pretty maiden,
I'm pleased to meet you here."

She said, "young man, be civil,
my company forsake;
I have a great opinion,
I fear you are some rake.
And if my parents should hear of this,
My life they would destroy,
For the keeping of bad company,
Here on this mountain high."

I said, "Kind miss, I am a bum,
Although I'm not to blame;
I'm begging for forgiveness,
All in the judge's name.
Your beauty has concerned me,
I cannot pass you by;
With my rifle I will guide you,
Here on this mountain high."

And then this pretty little thing,
She fell into a daze.
With eyes as bright as emeralds,
How fondly she did gaze.
She said, "young man, be civil,
And I will be your bride."
And then she fell into my arms
Here on this mountain high.

I had but kissed her once or twice,
Till she come to again,
And said to me so kindly,
"Kind sir, what is your name?"
"My name is nothing extry,
Although I'm sure you'll find,
Written down in Ancient History,
My name is Rhinordine."

Thread #68760   Message #3730549
Posted By: Felipa
15-Aug-15 - 04:02 PM
Thread Name: Chord Search Help - help on figuring out chords
Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help

I would have like to add this link to the thread on origins of Reynardine or the one requesting information on Reynardine. Both are closed, I know not why.

Rhinordine http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-Rhinordine.html suggests the song is not so old.

"Although usually called 'Reynardine' by Folk Revival singers, the common title of this piece in tradition is 'Rinordine' and under that title it is Laws P15. Laws lists versions from Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Vermont, and West Virginia, as well as Nova Scotia. He also lists assorted broadsheets and songsters. Interestingly, only one version from Britain is known.

The above version is unusual in that it lacks the ending in which Rinordine disappears, leaving the girl to warn others against the mysterious (supernatural?) figure.

Despite its British 'look,' it seems likely that the Broadway version mentioned by Lyle is in fact the original, or nearly, and that all the traditional versions derive from that."



    Hi, Felipa - the Origins thread was apparently closed because of an onslaught of Spam in 2007. I reopened the thread, hoping the Spam thread is past.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Ah, great, I've read it now. Fine work, Steve. And not least because it's always pleasant to find one's own intuition confirmed by someone who has actually taken the trouble to do the research!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

Whoa! Malcolm, you are amazing! I put that older version of the article online for my students in the folksong course at Penn. I had forgotten all about it. Yes, it has reverted to its original title and is longer than they would allow in "Folklore." It mentions the Robin Hood material but not at the same length as the new paper will. I'll renew this thread when that becomes available. For now, Malcolm's latest link is the most complete version available...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gwenzilla
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM

Nerd, I would *love* to hear about Reyanrdine/Robin Hood! Just tell me when and where that book'll be available! When I first read taht article, I had fun roaming around in its footprints and looking at all the references. It was great fun, since I've always loved the song-- and it gave me an excuse to pop over to Goldsmiths (right up the street from my house) and pilfer through Bert Lloyd's library.

I know I sound like a fangirl, sorry. I really, really enjoyed this article, and all I can say is keep up the good work. :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM

The text of the article now seems to be invisible in all the browsers I've tried, though it used to display correctly. The same problem affects other articles. If you look at the underlying page code, you'll see that the text is still there; it just doesn't display. I suspect that changes to the large amount of javascript on the site (mostly for loading ads) may have caused the problem.

What I gather is a re-working of the piece (I haven't yet compared the two), reverted to its original title (see comments above) can be seen at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~swinick/folk228/reynardine.html.  'Resurrecting Reynardine: Authorship and Authenticity in the Afterlife of a British Broadside Ballad': Stephen D. Winick.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

If that doesn't work, try this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?qt=reynardine&qf=free&qta=1&tb=art&x=0&y=0

(Copy & paste to your search pane.)

You'll see the link. No subscription fee needed, so far as I know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

Thanks, Lighter! I've been off the 'cat for over a year...just posted again for the first time yesterday. Coincidence? (Sorry, Yorkie and Scotus, I missed your messages by months.)

God willing, the Reynardine/Robin Hood connection will be published in a book of essays presented at last year's International Robin Hood Conference.

Richard, it may be that the site with the paper has restricted access. I am right now at work, which is in a Library, so if there is a subscription fee needed to see the site we've paid it. I'll see if it works from home later.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM

That URL does not seem to work


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

If anyone hasn't yet noticed, Nerd's report on Lloyd & Reynardine is now available at your fingertips here:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_3_115/ai_n8694034

Belated congratulations, Nerd! I loved it!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:44 AM

The final stanza seems to have been adapted later for "The Boston Burglar." The way I remember it:

You lads who have your liberty, preserve it while you can,
Don't never go night-walking, boys, or shun the laws of man;
For if you do, you'll surely rue, and become a lad like me,
Serving out your twenty-one years in the penitentiary.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:48 AM

That final verse is present in most broadside copies, and seems likely to have been part of the song from the start. Rinordine is in all editions of the Forget Me Not Songster except for a variant of (probably) the 1850s, but no tune is specified. Nafis & Cornish editions are likely between 1843 and 1851, but the whole publishing history is quite complicated.

See Norm Cohen's 'The Forget-Me-Not Songsters and Their Role in the American Folksong Tradition' in American Music vol 23 no 2, Summer 2005, Society of American Music & University of Illinois Press. It is the standard work on the subject, and a mine of information.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:05 AM

Thanks for posting it. Any music in the songster? Usually not, but sometimes a tune cited.

I know it is a lot of work, but could you post the song titles? There are songs in these old songsters that are hard to find. We will help you post material of interest. PM me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,PRKJ
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:44 PM

Here are the verses published in The Forget Me Not Songster, Nafis & Cornish, New York, undated. My copy has 1872 penciled on the flyleaf. It's a little handbook containing about 80 songs.

Rinordine

One evening as I rambled
Two miles below Pomroy,
I met a farmer's daughter,
All on the mountains high;
I said my pretty fair maiden
Your beauty shines most clear,
And upon these lonely mountains
Im glad to meet you here.

She said, young man, be civil
My company forsake,
For to my good opinion,
I fear you are a rake;
And if my parents should know,
My life they would destroy,
For keeping of your company,
All on the mountains high.

I said, my dear, I am no rake
But brought up in Venus' train,
And looking out for concealments
All in the judges' name;
Your beauty has ensnared me,
I cannot pass you by,
And with my gun I'll guard you,
All on the mountains high.

This pretty little thing,
She fell into amaze;
With her eyes as bright as amber,
Upon me did she gaze;
Her cherry cheeks and her ruby lips,
They lost their former dye,
And then she fell into my arms;
All on the mountains high

I had but kissed her once or twice,
Till she came to again;
She modestly then asked me,
Pray, sir, what is your name
If you go to yonder forest
My castle you will find,
Wrote in ancient history;
My name is Rinordine.

I said, my pretty fair maiden,
Don't let your parents know,
For if ye do, they'll prove my ruin
And fatal overthrow;
But when you come to look for me
Perhaps you'll not me find,
But I'll be in my castle;
And call for Rinordine

Come all ye pretty fair maidens,
A warning take by me,
And be sure you quit night walking
And shun bad company;
For if you don't you'll surely rue
Until the day you die,
And beware of meeting Rinor,
All on the mountains high

The punctuation is something I couldn't have dreamed up. The last verse looks like a standard caution that was tacked onto the ballad story, particularly noticeable as shift away from the first-person narration of the other verses.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Scotus
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM

Nerd - I've PM'd you, in case you missed it.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:14 AM

i saw a fox tonight, in a neighbour's garden


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Yorkie Bartram
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:08 AM

Dear Nerd,

Earlier in this thread you said, "perhaps I'll publish a short paper or a "note" about Reynold/Reynoldyn/Reynardine somewhere... ".

Could I suggest you think again about Musical Traditions?

Yorkie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 10:25 PM

One point of confusion above is that the name "Reynard" does not come from the French word for fox; quite the opposite. The French for fox comes from a Germanic proper name that is in modern German known as Reinhart, and in English as Reynard. The original word for fox in French was goupil, but this was replaced in the late middle ages by renard because of the popularity of the beast epic of Reynard the Fox in France. The y or i that is in the proper name is original to it in the Germanic languages, and the name of the fox in the Germanic versions of the stories has the i or y. There is no reason to expect the name and other names or words derived from it to lose the y in English just because they did so in French. So the dissimilarity of "renard" and "Reynard" is not a grounds for excluding the werefox connection...but I think there are more than enough other grounds, as I've made clear.

Q, the most obvious textual grounds for assuming Reynardine is an outlaw is the line "I'm seeking for concealment," which is nearly ubiquitous in broadside, songster, and oral versions. In many versions the line is "I'm seeking for concealment all from the judge's men," which makes it pretty clear he is, if not technically an outlaw, at least a wanted man (which is all I really mean by the term). In other versions, though, the line is "all in the judge's name," which would make him the opposite: a covert operative of some kind, a thief-taker perhaps, who is on some sort of stakeout.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Guest Aged -- I play the song in regular tuning. In the key of D, it can be played with just that chord, C and G.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM

Zorro had his start in pulp fiction (1919) by a man named McCully, who applied the Spanish word for fox to his character.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

Muttley is quite right that 'fox' in French is _le renard_ with no letter y, but this is not relevant to the question of a possible connexion with 'Reynardine' in English. (Let me emphasize that I put no more stock in this connexion than does Muttley--the issue is not there.) The French word comes from the prevalence of the fable in which Renard is the name of the personified fox (the title role), as Chanticleer is of the rooster etc.; compare Italian, where the Latin word is preserved in Romance form (I can't explain what happened in Spanish; _zorro_ is not Arabic; maybe Basque?). The disappearance of the _y_ in French is of no more moment than the same disappearance in 'Ronald' (Scots < Norse), or its survival as a silent letter in 'Reynold'(Middle English < Old English). The song could simply have preserved an older form of the word than the modern French word. But I vote with those who trace its occurrence in the song to the Robin Hood literature, where it is a name of Old English origin.

Stephen


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Aged
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

Actually, it'd pretty cool to be able to play Reynardine. I fumble about on the guitar, but I've never been able to get a handle on the tuning or produce a reasaonable rendition. can any one provide a pointer?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM

Lighter, it is true that this aspect of song dispersion has not been investigated to any extent. It is an idea of mine that may be shot down by more study.
There are a few broadside collections in North America, but their contents are known only to a few, as the lists have not been published as far as I know, and certainly the lyrics have not been published. American Memory is one exeption.
Many broadsides have a tune specified, but this does not always help either.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM

Q, ballads spread by print should show up in collected versions with many unrelated tunes since the reader would have to pick one independently. Is this really a feature of ballads in America? I don't believe anyone has ever looked into this question.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Muttley
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:30 AM

"Q" wrote: Whether Rinordine (or alt. spp.) was an outlaw, a minor noble or just a charismatic young blade is not clear to me, at least from the versions I have seen so far- and interpretation is up to the individual singer -interpreter.

I think: ALL OF THE ABOVE is a fair interpretation of a character was, in all likelihood' fictional or at best, an amalgam of other identities.

It's entirely probable that he was all three!

I forgot to mention the other night that, though I have not heard other versions I LOVE the Maddy Prior rendition - that woman has such a penetrating an powerfully clear sound. Quite apart from the musical sound; I tend to believe that she GAVE Steeleye Span their true voice.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gray D
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM

or possibly "ghatified".

Gray D


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gray D
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

On the subject of versions, you may wish to check out Sheila Chandra's "ragafied" version, called "The Enchantment" on her "Weaving My Ancestor's Voices" CD. Real World CDRW24.

It is "ragafied", mind you. Spooky, beautiful, but maybe not for the strict traditionalists.

Gray D


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

My main interest in this song is that it seems to be one of those whose wide dissemination in America depended largely on broadsheet and songster publication. There is not much variation in 'story line' of the versions collected.
I believe that many of the ballads collected here were spread by printed media rather than through primary verbal transmission by immigrants from 'the old country.'

Whether Rinordine (or alt. spp.) was an outlaw, a minor noble or just a charismatic young blade is not clear to me, at least from the versions I have seen so far- and interpretation is up to the individual singer -interpreter.

Possible connections with the Robin Hood or continental European outlaw stories are interesting as speculation, but "Where's the beef?"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Muttley, GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:03 AM

Have been reading the thread entries (The title kinda leaped out at me and "rang bells" as I perused the threads titles) - trying to get a feel for the group before 'joining' - if allowed, of course!

Reynardine stuck out as it reminded me I had seen / heard of / read about the title / song in the past. Have an odd mind that sort of works that way, sorry.

The only version I have actually heard live was by Maddy Prior here in Melbourne about 3 years ago or so and I resurrected my copy of "Arthur the King" by Maddy and sure enough, Reynardine was there. Read the lyrics and then followed the links to REYNARDINE and REYNARDINE 2 on this thread - one (R-2) is almost identical to Maddy's version and the other is not far off that.

HOWEVER!!! I also recall reading the lyrics many years ago by a source I now cannot recall (I'm 46 and I was quite young, then) However, I do recall that the first version mentioned EYES in place of TEETH. I feel that the use of the teeth was either someone's effort at individuality or a genuinely alternative version - A step away from the "well-worn beautiful-eyes" track, if you will.

One also feels that it is this mention of "shiny teeth" that has given rise to the Vampire / Lycanthrope interpretation. One also feels (as has, I think, been mentioned) that this is inaccurate. Generally (and I am a student of Vampire Lore) that a vampire's teeth are never referred to as teeth but as fangs - except as by way of introduction: To paraphrase Bram Stoker when he discovered Count Dracula asleep in his coffin - he described "a healthy, robust man with ruby lips and full, dark hair drawn into a Widow's Peak and his eye teeth (which we might call the canine teeth) were now protruding below his lower lip as veritable fangs". Remember, when he first met the Count, Dracula appeared as an older man of pale complexion, pallid lips and white, wispy hair!
I am quoting from memory as my only copy has been loaned and has as yet not been returned - miserable mortal - it was an OLD copy, too!

Sketchy, but many theories start out that way.

As for the Huguenot angle; it is interesting and plausible except for one thing. The majority of the Huguenots fled from France during the Catholic (or Roman) persecutio - NOT to England: many did flee in that direction, but were turned away - England and France were at war with each other at that time (as usual)- and even the prospect of resettling more Protestants to swell the numbers against the dreaded "Papist Threat", they still didn't trust FRENCH Protestants any more than they trusted ANY Frenchman. In fact, the vast majority of the French Huguenots fled not to England, but to Holland (Belgium was too Francophilic and not genuinely its own entity entirely and the Dutch, despite being predominantly Catholic as well, were, in fact, very liberal in their attitude to the "New Faith". Protestants and Catholics existed side-by-side with little rancour. Thus the Huguenots flourished. The Huguenots also fled to Spain - VERY surprising, but also very tolerant. They had little or no status there, but they were not hunted down. Despite the rampant Catholicism in Spain (the spiritual home of the Inquisition) the Spaniards hated the French more than they disliked non-Catholics - after all, they'd been ruled by the Moslem Moors for a few hundred years and not suffered TOO greatly as a result!
This information comes from my Mother-in-Law; a French Huguenot of Spanish extraction and from a small history tract entitled: "Les Histoire Des Huguenot".

Finally, I too have heard the legend of "Reynoldyn" or "Reynauldynne" from the Robert of Locksley (Robin Hood) tradition. Again, I have to agree with this 'person' as being the inspiration for this name. It fits the 'outlaw character'of the titular character.

As the lyrics suggest: Reynardine was an outlaw of sorts as he is "...searching for concealment all from the Judges men...". At this point our heroine falls for the "black sheep" (the good girls always fall for the bad men)- the implication being the age-old premise that "her love can change a rogue into a gentleman".

Finally; one also feels that the constant referral to Reynardine as a fox, were-fox or similar is drawing FAR too long a bow. Granted "renard" IS the French for fox - NOT Reynard! The assimilation of the latter name with 'fox' is undoubtedly due to the rather pathos-inspiring English poem: "Reynard the Fox", written, I believe in either the very late 19th or very early 20th Century and often included in school poetry anthologies - I had a copy which belonged to my sister who began school in the 1950's and it was an OLD poem then! Reynard is the anglicisation of 'renard'.

Thus, In summation, one draws the following:
1. Reynardine is NOT about a fox or were-fox.
2. One cannot accept (however good) the Huguenot angle.
3. Reynardyn of Robin Hood fame is the most likely source of the
    name.
4. The song is NOT about a vampire or Lycanthrope; as I recall the
    (apparent) originalversion of the song, confirmed by an earlier
    posting on this thread that the "shiny" anatomy referred to was
    eyes and not teeth.
And Finally
5. I feel that confirming the 'vampire' interpretation by simply linking the Irish writer Bram Stoker of 'Dracula' fame with an Irish version of the song waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too long a reach!

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I LOVE a good muso-historical mystery - actually, I love ANY kind of historical mystery.

Thanks

John "Muttley" Waters

PS - I'm off to 'join up' now - if I'm still welcome!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:05 AM

Q, one thing to be clear about: The Mountains of Pomeroy is a later song, written with the original Reynardine in mind and maintaining the name for the central character. It uses only two lines from the original song, however: "your life they would destroy" and "with my gun I'll guard you." So it's a very different song, and I treat it as such in the paper.

If anything, the existence of this song lends credence to my belief that the "original" understanding of Reynardine among regular folks was that he was an outlaw, since the person who re-worked it, George Sigerson, put his Renardine in that role. But there's no proof either way.

When writing this paper, I was very aware of the loss of my mentor, Kenny Goldstein, who passed away in 1995. Kenny was the producer of the A.L. Lloyd album on which the earlier version of Reynardine was recorded--the one that tipped me off that the Tom Cook story was unlikely. He also was a collector of the Forget Me Not Songster, and had at least one of every edition when he died. I had to go to the rare book room at the library to see a copy of it; when Kenny was alive I would have gone to his top story book room in West Philadelphia and gotten a better selection!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 12:33 AM

Roud includes indexes for 1835 (Nafis & Cornish, New York/ John B Perry, Philadelphia) and c.1850 (Locke, Boston); also -partially- The Negro Forget Me Not Songster (Turner & Fisher, Boston, 1845) which was a different series; largely Minstrel songs. My copy of FMN is the 1835 edition (or a later printing of it) with 256 pages; I've seen a partial contents listing for another, possibly earlier, edition with a variant selection of songs, but I can't find any record I may have made of it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 11:27 PM

The Forget Me Not Songsters were published at least between 1820 and 1847, with at least three different publishers; 250 pages or more, which was a good size for a songster of that period.
It would be interesting to have the indices.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 11:14 PM

It also appeared in the enormously popular Forget Me Not Songster (New York, Nafis & Cornish, 1835) as Rinordine.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:55 PM

One American broadside of the song with the name "Ranordine" was printed in Boston ca. 1813 (Ford, Massachusetts Broadsides, 3318- noted by Flanders et. al., "New Green Mountain Songster," p. 65.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:53 PM

The song was heard by Washington Irving in Kentucky ca. 1832. It was collected in Missouri (Belden, as Rinordine, coll. 1906), Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, Vermont, Arkansas and elsewhere. Also collected in Canada (See Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1, pp. 379-380.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM

Nerd,

Just read the paper and let me say that I was engrossed. I stumbled upon this discussion back in September (bringing up The Green Fields of America) and only today remembered it.

A fantastic read and I look forward to any additional information you put together regarding the song and its history.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM

"Renaldine 2," in the DT, apparently taken from "The New Green Mountain Songster," Flanders et al., where it is printed with music as "Renaldine, or the Montains of Pomeroy," pp. 64-66, should be noted in the DigiTrad heading.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 10:05 PM

Ah, silly me... I guess I was distracted by the Mudcat handle vs real name red herring.

Good work, Steve -- guess you've been outed! I should have known it was you from your Dirty Linen columns (where you kindly reviewed two of my CDs [Greenhouse is my band]). After all, how many Celt Nerds could there be?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM

For reference, Show of Hands repeat the were-fox theory, which maybe explains the mysterious, hypnotic feel they used for the song.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:43 AM

Yes, it's been my theory for about three or four years, which is how long it took me to write the thing, get advice from people like Malcolm, make the rounds of conferences, get it out for publication...and then the lag time to get it into print. So I've been blabbing about it here for so long it seems like old news, but the paper just came out in December! So he is saying the exact same thing as I am...he is, in fact, I!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM

They are one and the same person, which rather improves the odds.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM

Winick's article is interesting, but looking back over this thread, it appears that the theory he's trying to prove, i.e. MacColl's de facto authorship of the revival "Reynardine", has been pretty much the accepted wisdom around here.

Nerd, is he saying the same thing you are? And what are the odds of two major papers on the same folk subject should be published at the same time?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

P.S. I should say: thanks to John C. for mentioning this link elsewhere.

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

Here's a link to Steve Winick's article, A. L. Lloyd and Reynardine: authenticity and authorship in the afterlife of a British broadside ballad in the December 2004 issue of Folklore.

The abstract:

'This paper presents new evidence concerning the broadside ballad "Reynardine," which became popular in the British folksong revival movement of the 1960s and 1970s. It argues that the revival versions of this ballad were not products of the folk tradition, but rather descendants of a text authored by A. L. Lloyd, who was both a singer and a folksong scholar. The paper goes on to suggest reasons why Lloyd might have authored the ballad, and reasons why he might have concealed that authorship, placing its evidence and observations in the context of folkloristic concerns about authenticity and authorship, folklore and fakelore.'

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

I think "brought up in Venus's Train" means rake. Not any Hugeneot beliefs on pagan origins of Christian traditions. Reynardine is telling the young woman not to be afraid, as he is not a rake (HA!).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Jane
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM

Maranjo says she (hope that's right!) got here having listened to Show of Hands' version of the song. I got here exactly the same way. It was playing, they were fabulous, I thought I must find out more -- and what a lot I've discovered!

Maranjo is right -- Show of Hands version is, indeed, beautiful, and powerful and hypnotic. Highly recommended!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,maranjo
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM

Fascinating reading. I 'googled' to this discussion in search of background, having listened to the beautiful version of Reynardine on the (2003) album Country Life by UK duo Show of Hands. The page at that link gives a number of track samples as mp3, but sadly one isn't available for Reynardine. Lyrics are on the album, again a slight deviation from the examples referred to above. Strongly recommended.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

A.L. Lloyd and "Reynardine": Authenticity and Authorship in the Afterlife of a British Broadside Ballad.

Originally it was Resurrecting Reynardine: etc, But the journal thought it would be more eye-catching to more potential readers if Bert Lloyd were mentioned in the title! I'm looking forward to it myself. The only regret is that, due to length, they made me cut out a good deal, and it ended up being the "Reynoldyn" material that brought me onto this thread in the first place! That now turns up only in a footnote. Since then I have turned up another "Reynold" text clearly associated with the Robin Hood tradition, so perhaps I'll publish a short paper or a "note" about Reynold/Reynoldyn/Reynardine somewhere...


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