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BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?

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GUEST 29 Dec 01 - 01:45 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Dec 01 - 01:57 PM
Amos 29 Dec 01 - 02:12 PM
wildlone 29 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Dec 01 - 02:38 PM
GUEST, Cookieless Member 29 Dec 01 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Gareth Cookieless pro tem 29 Dec 01 - 04:19 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 01 - 04:28 PM
Rolfyboy6 29 Dec 01 - 04:51 PM
Little Hawk 29 Dec 01 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 29 Dec 01 - 05:01 PM
Liz the Squeak 29 Dec 01 - 05:46 PM
Jon W. 29 Dec 01 - 05:46 PM
Rolfyboy6 29 Dec 01 - 06:25 PM
Amos 29 Dec 01 - 07:03 PM
GUEST 29 Dec 01 - 10:34 PM
wildlone 30 Dec 01 - 05:04 AM
John P 30 Dec 01 - 07:49 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Dec 01 - 10:54 AM
Amos 30 Dec 01 - 11:12 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Dec 01 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,cookieless Hille - still floating in occasio 30 Dec 01 - 04:40 PM
Amos 30 Dec 01 - 05:08 PM
Liz the Squeak 30 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM
Paul from Hull 30 Dec 01 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 30 Dec 01 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 30 Dec 01 - 10:59 PM
Willie-O 30 Dec 01 - 11:50 PM
Les B 30 Dec 01 - 11:51 PM
Willie-O 31 Dec 01 - 12:15 AM
Melani 31 Dec 01 - 12:40 AM
GUEST,Spot (at the kennels) 31 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Desdemona 31 Dec 01 - 04:17 PM
Burke 31 Dec 01 - 05:15 PM
Deda 31 Dec 01 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Nerd 01 Jan 02 - 03:42 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 02 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Desdemona 01 Jan 02 - 08:00 PM
Steve Parkes 02 Jan 02 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,what ! 02 Jan 02 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,ok so i meant strong typos eh? :) 02 Jan 02 - 04:39 AM
GUEST 02 Jan 02 - 10:47 AM
Jon W. 02 Jan 02 - 12:04 PM
mairsilin 02 Jan 02 - 12:08 PM
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Subject: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 01:45 PM

And do you feel that the story would be better served by including something steamy?

There will be a quiz later.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 01:57 PM

Because it's not that sort of ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:12 PM

You wouldn't recognize genuine sex if it bit ya!! There is a steamy seen where the Elven princess gives away her very immortality for the sake of one lifetime at the side of Aragorn, prince and heir apparent to the throne of Gondor, who has been pursuing other business in the guise of the Ranger known as Strider.

The DNA positively vaporizes with hyperexcitation and the deepest vibes that the male-female thing can generate! The rest, as in the very best art, is left to the imagination of the viewer.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: wildlone
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM

Read the bloody book
If you want steamy sex you are on the wrong site

dave


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:38 PM

Tolkein based the books on the Norse and other medieval sagas. You won't find much steamy sex in those either.

Now as for steamy sex on this web site, its mostly kept hidden. Except for Blake Madison, that is. He's an animal.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:46 PM

Its just some little idiot who thinks he can embarrass the grown-ups by mentioning 'the *S*-word' cos it used to embarrass his parent(s)...

...& of course, Folkies are all REALLY old.... back from before sex was invented....*L*


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Gareth Cookieless pro tem
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:19 PM

Possibly they did not want the Orcs to pick up any dirty hobbits.

Ouch !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:28 PM

It depends how crowded the theater is. You don't want to be too obvious.

Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:51 PM

Tolkien was an Oxford 'Don' from the old England of 'Empire and muscular christianity'. Sex was not an option.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:56 PM

There's plenty of sex in LOTR, it's just not onscreen. Kind of like real life (most of the time).

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:01 PM

Personally, I've always wondered what that groovy chick Goldberry saw in Tom Bombadil, but assumed it was something not to be discussed in polite company!

However, they didn't make it into the movie, so it must remain a mystery......!

I also agree with Rolfyboy....."steamy sex" is not the term I most readily free-associate with "Oxford don", but maybe that's just me?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:46 PM

Oh boy, you don't know Oxford very well do you!!!

And I wondered about the whole Goldberry/Bombadil thing too....

But I agree with one of the earlier postings, read the books. Barely even a chaste kiss amongs the elanor in Lothlorien, the emphasis is on love and trust rather than shagging like orcs as soon as the halflings have gone to sleep......

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Jon W.
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 05:46 PM

Read "Bored of the Rings" (The Harvard Lampoon parody). There's some there.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:25 PM

In LOTR everything has consequences, many of them sad and unavoidable. This is different from a simple no-guilt consumer society. 'If it feels good, do it' ain't much like Middle Earth. "Like, uh, Frodo is groovy, man."


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 07:03 PM

Speaking for older men generally I see absolutely nothing questionable about Goldenberry's attachment to Tom Bonbadil. He just had a better attitude, is all.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:34 PM

I've read all the books, seen the movie, and read the parody.

I LMAO reading Rolfyboy's reason! Dead on, IMO.

All the great manly epics which Tolkien based his tales on had a good amount of steamy sex, so why the sorry lack in LOTR?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: wildlone
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 05:04 AM

The sorry fact is that the censors will allow scenes of great violence to be shown to all but as soon as there is any sex the film is concidered not to be suitable for children [or in the case of an 18 cert]young adults.
dave


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 07:49 AM

Tolkien, unlike most purveyors of modern entertainment, understood that sex is a private activity for most people. Anyone with any adult understanding knows that when you have great and enduring love and children in the same family, you also have steamy sex. I, for one, don't have to see it to know its there. I still have the use of my imagination.

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:54 AM

Amos - there are older men and there are older MEN!!! If Tom Bombadil were played by Sean Connery, then Goldberry's attraction might be a little better understood.....

(Ooh now there's another fantasy role play for me.......)

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 11:12 AM

Go for it Liz!! But you see my point. Tom Bombadil as written is obviously one of the Men who exerts the same kind of influence as Sean Connery. Certain of us have it, and some of us don't. :>))

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 11:19 AM

I've always imagined TB as a sort of Peter Pan, one of those blokes who look the same at 60 as they did at 20 - Cliff Richard (dragging this back to music of a sort) is one of those sorts, but frankly, I can't see him with Goldberry. I think it would have to be Sean....

Aaaaahhhhh.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,cookieless Hille - still floating in occasio
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 04:40 PM

Well, I was in the bookshop yesterday and overheard a young woman was explaining very patiently to her very elderly grandmother(?) that it was all about a 4 foot Dildo.... confusion will doubtless reign in the Day Care centre lounge later?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 05:08 PM

What good is a dildo with feet? Don't they...um...get in the way?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM

Depends what you do with the toes.....

There goes another bunch of grapes.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 06:38 PM

*LMAO*


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:28 PM

Yes, National Lampoon once composed a LOTR satire called "Bored of the Rings", as has been noted above in this thread somewhere...

It was puerile, tasteless, and about 1/15,000 the length of the original story...and had all the typical American humour about stupidity, ugliness, social irresponsibility and sex...standard fare.

It did also have some genuinely funny bits, I believe, so it wasn't a total loss.

The name they chose to give Bilbo Baggins in "Bored of the Rings" was...get this...

"Dildo Bugger"

This may help explain the confusion of the young woman in the store. I hope so, anyway. She may have read the wrong book.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:59 PM

Simply put, JRR lived in another era when he wrote the books, and didn't write any in.

We don't need no steenkeeng quizzes.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 11:50 PM

Hey, Bored Of The Rings was REALLY funny. As explained in the forward, if it had been truly tasteful and clever and inoffensive, it would have been quite pointless.

Besides, it was the first (and about the only) book I ever shoplifted. Seemed appropriate, somehow. I read it a lot of times, to get my money's worth, I suppose.

As for sex, ever try doing it on a rickety footbridge?

Talk about a passion limiter.

Willie-O
Now pretty much reformed. (It's not the 70's anymore)


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Les B
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 11:51 PM

As in all fantasies, their sex organs are between their pointy little ears !


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Willie-O
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:15 AM

Well Bless Their Pointy Little Heads!


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Melani
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:40 AM

As I recall, Tom Bombadil was a high-energy kind of guy...maybe that was the attraction.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Spot (at the kennels)
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM

LtS what has Cliff Richard got to do with music:-)?

Spot


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 04:17 PM

Although he's not described as such, I've always pictured Old Tom as about 4' tall & on the stolid side, and Goldberry as quite a bit taller. Since he IS described as constantly leaping all over the place, and forever speaking in those litte rhymes & songs, the only reason I could think of for Goldberry's attachment was that A. she probably didn't get a chance to meet too many guys sittting by her lily pool; B. he could tell all those nasty willow trees what to do; C. unseen qualities he may have possesssed in common with that "Right Whale" referred to in another thread!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Burke
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 05:15 PM

I like John P's explanation but Celtic Soul has the real answer.

The real incongruity for me is all those 'foul mouthed' orcs who really used very mild language in the books. In the movie they just grunt. I wonder if in the later movies the language of Mordor's inhabitants will be as purple as it should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Deda
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 05:31 PM

I'm re-reading LOTR currently and just saw the movie. I think the reason there's no sex in it is because there are no real female characters. Goldenberry and the elf-woman are not players, they don't participate in the quest or the council, they're not actually consulted, and their roles are pretty purely decorative. Neither Frodo nor Bilbo ever have any female friends or relatives -- no sweethearts, mothers, aunts, sisters, nieces, or daughters -- except for the nasty Sackville-Bagginses, nasty grasping gossips. I've actually found myself wondering about Tolkien's sexual orientation and view of women in general. Shakespeare's women are so rich and true and various, and have so much depth and texture! This guy just doesn't know or do women characters, except for mythological glow-worm statuette goddesses who are non human. Frodo and Bilbo are wonderful because they are so non-heroic and heroic at the same time. I'm almost done with the first book and I haven't seen any women yet who actually said, thought or did anything that affects the plot in any remote way.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 03:42 AM

Deda,

I agree with what you say, Tolkien didn't do strong women characters. But that's no reason to question his sexual orientation! He was a happily married man who loved his wife and children, by all accounts. So why no good female characters?

Characters in general were not his strong suit--we know nothing about Gandalf's personal life, his likes and dislikes, etc. Characters exist in Tolkien's works in order to serve story functions; this is because he based his work on old myths and epics and romances, which are all very similar in this regard. What is Guenevere like in "The Knight of the Cart?" What are the women like in Beowulf? The Iliad? What, for that matter, is Beowulf like? They just don't have much personality.

In these stories, some hero-characters are fated to marry (Aragorn, Samwise, Tom Bombadil) and so women appear to fullfil that role. To ask Tolkien to supply women hero-characters would be a little anachronistic, in the sense that he was basing his works on male-dominated genres before the women's movement told us this was offensive to some people...


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 10:38 AM

Yer absolutely right, Nerd. Now let's just be sure no women get in there to ruin the story for the fellas, and the women who love them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 08:00 PM

You're right, Nerd; LOTR is basically a "buddies on an epic quest" story, and the literary forms on which Tolkien based it didn't tend towards a lot of strong female characters, or a great deal of character developmeent & background. I think it was Clinton who pointed out that sam Gangee is really the most fully-realised character in the entire story.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 03:31 AM

The book is over a thousand pages as it is--how long would it be with steamy sex scenes?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,what !
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 04:38 AM

I agree there is a lack of string female characters but surely you are forgetting the influence galadriel had on the whole company! and what about rohans princess who kills the morgul lord ?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,ok so i meant strong typos eh? :)
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 04:39 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 10:47 AM

The epic is a male genre, in both literature and film. However, that doesn't mean that other epics don't have sex in them, and some have plenty of it.

While I hadn't considered that Tolkien was, as Rolfyboy put it:

"...an Oxford 'Don' from the old England of 'Empire and muscular christianity' (for whom) sex was not an option."

I now realize that really is the answer to my original question here. I had a good laugh, as I hadn't seen the reference to Empire and muscular christianity in a very long time, and it was great to see that someone even knew what it was, much less was able to use it in context in a Mudcat thread!

So thanks again Rolfyboy, for answering my question. It certainly "explains everything" about the lack of sex in Tolkien's works.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Jon W.
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:04 PM

I'm glad someone remembered Eowyn, the princess of Rohan. If she wasn't a strong woman character, who is? She did her best to gain Aragorn's romantic interest while remaining true to her feminist principles, she dressed up like a man and went to war (remind you of any folk songs?) and as "GUEST What!" mentions above, she did in the leader of the Nazgul. Plus she won and married Faramir over the objections of the polite society of Gondor. What more do you want?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: mairsilin
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:08 PM

There's no sex in the movie, LOTR, because there's no sex in the trilogy, LOTR, and as I understand the movie was made to be as faithful to the book as possible. Now, as to why there is no sex in the book, I love all the explanations offered especially the "muscular christianity" comment. Am now rereading the trilogy since my first reading was 30 years ago back "in the day" when all self-respecting hippie-type folkies read Tolkien in a bit of an altered state of consciousness; amazingly, I remember the story quite well but forgot a lot of details--one thing I do remember is that there wasn't any sex--not on a physical level anyway. But, despite the lack of steaminess, it's a great story and one not to be missed. So take it for what it is or isn't as the case may be and by all means just enjoy it!!


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:09 PM

I think suggesting that there are feminist characters in LOTR is pretty delusional. But people believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to the things they have strong emotional connections to it.

I realize there are a lot of people who love these books and/or the film, who are going to want to believe that Tolkien was a really progressive, enlightened kind of guy. He wasn't. He was a conservative Oxford academic, who happened to love epics, so tried his hand at writing one. He did a pretty fair job, considering he took it on as prose instead of poetry (which the majority of the world's epic literature is written in), and tried to give it that muscular Christian spin. He did it at least as well as Lucas did with Star Wars, IMO. But that is only my opinion.

But please people, let's stay grounded in reality here. A feminist character in LOTR? I don't think so...


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 03:47 PM

If "feminist" implies a generalized political drive for the promotion of women as a class, then Eowyn doesn't seem to fit. But if "feminist" refers to a female character who won't accept being put down because she's female, who insists on exercising her own abilities as freely as does a male, then that describes her.

Arwen in the book is one-of-a-kind, the only daughter of Elrond the Half-Elven. She's not developed beyond a sort of cardboard cutout figure, but what little we know is that she and Aragorn were childhood sweethearts, and she had faith in him, waited many, many, many years for him to come into his own, and when he achieved his throne was immediately ready to abandon her immortality (a choice she had by right of her descent from Elrond the Half-Elven)in order to mary him. The childhood connection and her choice (and its gravity) are only made clear in the final volume; prior to that she's at best a sort of passing background figure.

Galadriel is assuredly not a feminist. She is the top of the heap by the nature of things, and has been for centuries, perhaps millennia, and is one of if not the only remaining elf of those who personally came back to Middle Earth from the West. While she has a male consort, her status and power are greater than his. There is neither any suggestion that the betterment of others of her sex is any particular part of her motivation nor any need to struggle to establish herself against a male-dominated society; thus, she's no feminist.

Goldberry, though nominally female, is a one-of-a-kind nature-goddess type, not particularly involved in societal issues like gender equality. No feminist there.

Rosie is clearly an "unenlightened female", a homebody, the antithesis of a feminist.

I THINK that's a complete catalog of the female characters in the saga.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 03:54 PM

In my world of "definitions of a feminist" none of the characters in LOTR qualify as one. Nor does the perspective from which the books are written qualify as one even remotely connected to feminism and feminist values.

There are a lot of strong women characters found in literature, but that doesn't make their character or creator "feminist" or enlightened, regardless of the gender of the author/creator.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 04:42 PM

Well if the couple behind me were anything to go by, there's plenty of sex in LOTR, but they could well have been doing it during Harry Potter as well!!!

LTS - who's just got back from seeing it, and wishes the back of her head would come back - it's very loud!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 05:15 PM

If you think of the Quest in terms of War, and the Fellowship in terms of a small group of soldiers, then (especially for Tolkiens time) women would not have been around much. Even in todays world, a woman on the front lines is nearly unheard of.

And I would add that, were *I* being chased by Nazguls, Orcs, Balrogs, Golum, and all sorts of nastiness as such, I'd likely not be thinking about getting laid. I'd likely be thinking about keeping moving, and trying to stay alive long enough to finish what I had to do...

Then I'd go home and attack my honey! ;D

But, in the end, I really do think it was simply the times in which Tolkien lived that made for the story as it was written.

And anyway....are there not *enough* stories in the world rife with sex? You want sex in the fantasy genre, read the ElfQuest series of graphic novels...hell, there's an orgy in book 4, complete with pictures!


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 05:42 PM

Methinks Guest needs a cold bath for initiating this thread. A Clean Mind In A Clean Body (or is it v. v.?) and all that stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 06:19 PM

Sex? Feminism? I think this whole thread misses the point by a helluva lot. Lord of the Rings is an epic fantasy and a very good one. But that's all it is.

Consider. The fact that there are hobbits, elves, dwarves, wizards, orcs, and humans throughout the story tends to indicate that hobbits, elves, dwarves, wizards, orcs, and humans all have sex, otherwise where did they come from? The stork? (Well, maybe. In a fantasy, anything is possible. If I remember correctly, Athena was born from Zeus's forehead, which is quite an obstetric achievement, especially for a male.) One does not find mentions in the story that any of the characters engaged it acts of dental hygiene or ever stopped to go wee-wee, but I think one can assume that this is implied by the simple nature of their existence (but in a literary world, of course, where that which is not essential to the story is generally not even mentioned).

I don't think you'll find any card-carrying feminists among any of Tolkien's characters. But you won't find anti-feminists either. In Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil obviously adores Goldberry and she seems to feel the same way about him. Galadriel has a tremendous amount of clout and everyone loves and respects her very highly. Éowyn is chosen, by popular acclaim, to lead the Eolingas while Théodon is away. And on and on. Granted, there are not all that many women in Lord of the Rings, but all who do appear are very strong, and pivotal to the story.

Was Tolkien trying to put some message across here? No, I don't think so. But I certainly don't think his sexual orientation can be called into question. He obviously likes and respects women very much. And to try to judge him by today's standards is less than fair.

This is like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 07:00 PM

Take it easy Don. I think we all know that the books are in the (male) epic literary genre.

I agree that some attempts here which may or may not call Tolkien's sexual orientation into question, or suggestions that the female characters might be viewed as feminist characters to be extremely far fetched, and said so.

But then again, it has been a pretty amusing thread too. No need to get all upset, really. I never meant to offend anyone by starting the thread. I'm a fan of the books and the film. I just found myself wondering why there was no sex in the books. Honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 09:10 PM

"All the great manly epics which Tolkien based his tales on had a good amount of steamy sex."

Just read Beowulf, for one, and you'll see why I think that quote there is balderdash. Generally speaking this genre just didn't have sex scenes. Sometimes as in King Arthur some highminded romance - heroes and their ladies lying chastely with a sword between them, that kind of stuff.

Different modes for different music. Don't expect or demand blue notes in the kind of music that doesn't have blue notes.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 02:08 AM

I'm not upset, GUEST, I'm just amused and amazed. I'm equally amused and amazed by people who claim to be able to see things of significance in tea leaves or the entrails of birds. It has been, as you say, a pretty amusing thread.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 09:09 AM

I agree there is no really graphic sex in male epics. But there is often romance of rather sexy sort, shall we say? ;-) There is Tennyson, after all. The Odyssey. Certainly the creators of the Icelandic sagas were no prudes. I mean, what is a fella supposed to do when trapped on those idyllic islands with all those lovely, lonely nymphs and the wife so far away?


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 10:33 AM

Although not explicitly described, I seem to recall that Sam and Rosie did quite a bit of begatting towards the end of the tale??


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:05 PM

Since hobbits are very fond of gatherings and parties, eating, drinking, singing, story-telling, and generally enjoying the more pleasant things of life, they are probably just as fond of many enjoyable things that Tolkien never got around to cataloging. Not unlike most folksingers I know.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: lamarca
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:40 PM

There was a good article in the Washington Post this week (that I can't seem to find on their website) about women characters in Lord of the Rings. The author mentioned that Tolkien was patterning LOTR after Nordic and Anglo-Saxon hero stories where females don't play a big role, but that he was writing the story partly to entertain his children. He would send chapters to his son Christopher, who was serving in the RAF. The Post article said that he created Eowyn's character to please his younger daughter as she grew up.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Deda
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 02:51 PM

I am not far enough along in re-reading this to comment on Rosie or Sam's eventual marriage. But I re-read the Odyssey last year and it is full of strong women -- so the original epic, the prototype of epics, in dactyllic hexameter if I remember right, includes many powerful females, both human and divine, both heroines and villainesses. Even the Iliad, which I haven't read for a long time, has human women like Helen, Hecuba, Clytemnestra, Cressida, et aliae, not to mention the goddesses who take part in the war. Wars affect women, too, and women can be included in the stories of war. We all know songs about women affected by war in one way or another. They just weren't included in LOTR, and maybe not in the norse sagas either.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 03:05 PM

I can recall a few strong women in the Norse sagas, although not many. Most of the ones that are there are "evil queens," and the like.

But many of our versions of Norse legends were preserved by monks of the middle ages -- the originals may have included many more women, but I doubt that their status would have been much higher, even in the originals. But Graendal was a woman. (Or at least female.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 05:59 PM

And why aren't there any respectful silences on TV political debate forums? Answer me that!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:06 PM

Deda,

not to be disrespectful, but it's obvious you haven't read the Iliad in a while! You're confusing the epic itself with the whole complex of stories about the Trojan war. The Iliad recounts the incidents in the war from Achilles' revolt (because he and Agammemnon both have the hots for the same slave girl, actually) until the funeral of Hector. Cassandra and Hecuba figure as grieving mother and sister, but do not perform any important actions. Clytemnestra is only mentioned when Agammemnon says the slave girl is just as beautiful as she is. Cressida, I believe, does not appear at all, though my own memory may be shaky there. I know that Troilus is only mentioned in passing.

In this regard, the Iliad is a much more typical epic than the Odyssey, and almost certainly older, too. As another poster said above, look at Beowulf. No sex, no strong women (except Grendel's mother, who is an ogress--strong but foul and evil). Most of the Norse epics and even early romances are the same way. The epic/romance format was simply not one in which strong women characters were usually foregrounded. Look instead to tragedies and other dramatic recountings (The Sack of Troy, The Oresteia, etc), or to later (medieval) versions of these stories, which is when Cressida became such an important figure.

Similarly, in old Arthurian romances, women had minor roles. It was later in the tradition (Pearl-poet, Malory, etc) that women came to have larger roles, and even then they were principally of the evil-queen/temptress variety. It took Marion Zimmer Bradley to remake that corpus with strong, positive women and lots of sex! But Bradley was later, she was a feminist, and she was writing her book for very different reasons than Tolkien.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 12:50 AM

There were powerful sex scenes, you plebian groundlings saw them ... and did not understand the metaphor. They were graphic and messy.

Both scenes with women and Frodo include volumenous voluptuous sex. Look at their faces when they are on horseback, watch the motion (there is much more than a gallop there), the stream is the orgasmic phase; with Frodo first and the woman's a gushing, seven swelled cascade, of rapturous delight.

The scene in Rivendale I'll let you work out on your own. You need to have a poet's pure and loving heart, combined with teenage horniness.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 02:00 PM

Uh-huh. The really amazing part of all this is that someone was silly enough to even start a thread asking such a question in the first place. It speaks volumes about the decadent and ridiculous commercial culture we live in.

The positive side though, is that it provides so many good opportunities for humorous responses, and that may well have been GUEST's actual intention...

And here's another neat question: So, why isn't there a genuine sense of fairness, compassion, equality, and a desire to see and appreciate the other guy's point of view shown by opposing attorneys in courtroom battles...like the glorious O.J. Simpson travesty. Why, oh why?

And why do barbarous fools with a lower consciousness than even the most primitive animals not appreciate higher human and spiritual ideals? Why, oh why?

Sheesh.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Jane 2001
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 05:34 PM

There's plenty of sex in LOTR. I've been in love with Aragorn for years. I haven't seen the film yet, so I hope I won't be disappointed. I'm glad to hear,though, that my imagination is not going to be stunted by someone else's version of the gynaecological details.

So there aren't many female characters. The few female characters are larger than life, each representing a particular virtue; Galadriel - wisdom, Eowyn - courage, Rosie - domesticity etc. I don't find the lack of females a problem. I can identify just as well with the male characters since they have qualities which we can all share.

By the way, does anyone agree with me that Jane Austen was one of the most erotic writers ever? 400 pages of build-up and then.....well just imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM

Jane 2001---have you ever seen "Pride & Promiscuity"?! It's a spoof of Jane Austen novels purporting to be "The Lost Sex Scenes", and it is hilarious! Check it out (sorry I can't make blue-clicky-thingies...stop me if my terminology gets too technical!):

http://www.nerve.com/Fiction/Ashton/prideAndPromiscuity/


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 08:29 AM

No offense Little Hawk, but your condesending and arrogant manner when it comes to preaching your personal "higher human and spiritual ideals" is really off-putting to me. It makes you seem very full of yourself, too self-important.

This isn't meant as a personal attack. But I've been around Mudcat awhile, and it seems to me you have a tendency to to become very condesending when you go into preacher mode.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Gillie
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 10:26 AM

It certainly isn't Mills and Boone!! I started to read LOTR at the tender age of 10 at school. I got so enthralled with it that I even read it in bed, when I had chickenpox.

I concur with Little Hawk. Guest I would suggest that you visit your local newsagents to find the reading material you require.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Gillie
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM

It certainly isn't Mills and Boone!! I started to read LOTR at the tender age of 10 at school. I got so enthralled with it that I even read it in bed, when I had chickenpox.

I concur with Little Hawk. Guest I would suggest that you visit your local newsagents to find the reading material you require.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Gillie
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 11:01 AM

ooooooooooooopppppppssss


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 12:15 PM

Self rightous Little Hawk learned her style from some of the best here at the Mudcat. They have chased away and dampened more spirits than the man who waters the beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Gillie
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Sounds like sour grapes to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Deda
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 03:13 PM

(Several days ago) Nerd, you're absolutely right, it's been decades since I read the Iliad and it's turned to mush in my head. Disrespect would be perfectly in order. Thanks for setting me straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 03:36 PM

Have to throw my hat in the ring (pun intended) with John P and Little Hawk. Taking a stand for decency, good taste, intelligence, beauty and social responsibility (note most of these are simply opposites of what J P and L H were decrying) is bound to draw fire from those (usually anonymous) who feel otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 05:07 PM

Two reactions to the above...

1. I can readily understand how GUEST might find me sounding "self-righteous" when I get worked up about defending the things I value most dearly. I react similarly to GUEST when I hear fire and brimstone style Christian preachers railing on about "sin" and threatening people and society generally with hellfire and damnation...or fiscal conservatives talking about "trickle-down" economic theory and "bleeding heart liberals"...etc.

It all depends on where you feel you're standing in relation to the subject matter at hand...and what traditions and cultural modes you tend to automatically work from most of the time.

People always sound self-righteous when they get upset about things they care deeply about...providing it's an even slightly different set of things than the one listening happens to care deeply about.

Yes, I get carried away sometimes. We all do. I'm not about to apologize for it, but I will certainly admit to sharing in what is a universal human characteristic. Whether you like what I say or not is not dependent so much on my style, but rather on whether your buttons get pushed by the same stuff mine do...or not. 'Nuff said about that.

2. "Self rightous Little Hawk learned her style from some of the best here at the Mudcat..."

Not true!!! My "style" was worked out long before I ever heard of Mudcat! :-)

But........

"her style"? "her"??? Gosh, I didn't realize my feminine side was so effectively developed as to show that well! GUEST, I am flattered! Though born a male in this particular lifetime...or perhaps because of that...I have always admired women tremendously. On the average they are smarter, more grounded, more socially responsible, and more cooperative than men. As the Lakota said "a nation is not destroyed until the hearts of its women are on the ground".

*(This general observation of mine is not altered by the fact that some individual women are fools and some individual men are brilliant...)

Given a chance to share equally in running the world, I suspect that women would do a far better job than men have during this last lamentable patriarchal age, which hopefully is in its deaththros.

Long live equality and to hell with the patriarchy that presently runs the world.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: hesperis
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 08:17 PM

There is sex in tLotR, it's just that the story is not hitting people over the head with the obvious. It's subtle, and very romantic. (And as Gargoyle pointed out, if you're obsessed with sex you can see it anywhere. *evil grin*)

As for Hawk, he can get *very* pompous, I think we can all recognize that as fact. But he was also right, if a little off-topic for this thread. ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:20 AM

Hey! Anybody who takes such an extreme attitude of self-righteousness over a fantasy movie and book series, ie claiming their right to passionately defend it as "something they care deeply about" is pretty damn over-the-top.

Remember, Tolkien's books aren't sacred texts. His work doesn't exactly rival the writings of the Dalai Lama.

Now, breathe deeply...then exhale.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:32 AM

And BTW, no one here seems obsessed with sex.

But a number of you "there is sex in LOTR, it just isn't necessary to show it..." are obviously obsessed with romanticism. Which is a much worse addiction, not to mention very, very bad for healthy human relationships.


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:11 PM

That's true, GUEST. Romanticism can lead people far astray, and often does, and it most certainly IS an addiction.

It's always the question on this forum...do I respond seriously to that last post, do I respond humorously, do I respond whimsically...or do I not respond at all?

It wasn't LOTR I was suggesting that I "care deeply about", it was general human dignity and moral sensibilities, which are under constant assault in a commercial culture such as ours...for no other reason than to make someone a quick buck.

I haven't read the writings of the Dalai Lama, but I am sure they are MUCH more significant than LOTR. LOTR is just a darn good fantasy novel, and little more than that.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: So, why isn't there any sex in LOTR?
From: GUEST,Penny S (elsewhere)
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:21 PM

I agree about the the female characters in the Odyssey - who are very complex, as well, not lending themselves to stereotypical evil/good polarities - Homer is the author I usually compare Tolkien with when complaining about the absence of females. I am not sure that Norse myth and saga is short of females, by the way. Or, indeed, sex. Read about the way Freya gets the necklace Brisingamen. Or how Loki taunts her, and the other goddesses. And what was going on in the Ring cycle? There were some strong women involved in the settlement of Iceland and Vinland. But not a lot in Oxford colleges.

When I first read LOTR, I identified with Eowyn, but then began to find that unsatisfying, since she is only active in a masculine way, and I grew out of wanting to do that. There is another female - very minor but important in plot terms. I think her name is something like Iorwerth? She works in the house of Healers in Gondor, and is the only one who knows where to get athelas for Aragorn. she is active in a female way, but talks too much! Possibly like the college cleaning women. (Sorry, can't remember whether they are scouts or bedders, and I don't care about the invented differences between Oxford and Cambridge anyway.)

Penny


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Mudcat time: 5 June 5:42 PM EDT

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