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BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings

Homeless 15 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM
Morticia 15 Dec 01 - 02:57 PM
wysiwyg 15 Dec 01 - 03:00 PM
catspaw49 15 Dec 01 - 03:00 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 01 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,ermintrudeclaire 15 Dec 01 - 03:15 PM
catspaw49 15 Dec 01 - 03:24 PM
GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit 15 Dec 01 - 03:34 PM
Amos 15 Dec 01 - 04:34 PM
Mudlark 15 Dec 01 - 04:38 PM
GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit 15 Dec 01 - 04:39 PM
gnu 15 Dec 01 - 05:01 PM
gnu 15 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Paul 15 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM
Banjo-Flower 15 Dec 01 - 05:57 PM
Clinton Hammond 15 Dec 01 - 05:59 PM
Ebbie 15 Dec 01 - 06:09 PM
GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit 15 Dec 01 - 06:23 PM
Clinton Hammond 15 Dec 01 - 06:43 PM
katlaughing 15 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM
Amos 15 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM
Amos 15 Dec 01 - 08:10 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 15 Dec 01 - 08:11 PM
GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit 15 Dec 01 - 09:34 PM
Homeless 15 Dec 01 - 11:53 PM
JenEllen 16 Dec 01 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 16 Dec 01 - 12:10 AM
catspaw49 16 Dec 01 - 01:05 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 01 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Dec 01 - 07:15 PM
Clinton Hammond 16 Dec 01 - 07:28 PM
Kim C 17 Dec 01 - 03:57 PM
Cappuccino 17 Dec 01 - 04:10 PM
fat B****rd 18 Dec 01 - 10:55 AM
Steve in Idaho 18 Dec 01 - 11:23 AM
gnu 18 Dec 01 - 03:22 PM
artbrooks 18 Dec 01 - 04:49 PM
Celtic Soul 18 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM
Kim C 19 Dec 01 - 10:15 AM
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Subject: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Homeless
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 02:49 PM

First off, I'm not much keen on non-music threads, but I need some alternative points of view, and this seems like it will be the best place to get them. So my apologies to anyone whom this thread annoys.

I have a pretty solid belief system that I try to stand on and not compromise unless absolutely necessary. Among this beliefs is that I am very anti-Christmas. I don't take part in parties, do gifts, etc. I've been living with my girlfriend for last 4 months, and we've talked about Christmas extensively, so she knows my feelings and thoughts on it. Yesterday after we woke up, she mentioned something about it being the first day of Christmas. When I got up, there was a new CD sitting on my desk. Oh boy, a (twelve days of) Christmas present.

Now, this wasn't just any present, like socks or something. She knows I'm starting to get into folk music some (I first came here 'cause I like blues) and she's heard me mention Steeleye Span and Fairport in passing. So she goes and hunts down "Troubadors of British Folk" with the two aformentioned bands, as well as Lonnie Donegan, Ian Campbell, Pentangle, among others.

This morning, a Spider John Koerner CD was in the same place. Two for two. She's done research and put thought and effort into these gifts. She knows how important music is to me, and has found stuff that's she's heard me attempt to play on guitar. These aren't off the cuff gifts, and she's really got me pinned (and I'm a very hard person to "buy for").

So my dilemma is, do I stand on my principles and refuse the gifts as gently as I can, or do I swallow my pride and accept them gracefully (but very self-conciously)? I need the viewpoint of someone outside my situation, and I just can't formulate it on my own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 02:57 PM

Wow, toughie!! Have you discussed this with her? Does she understand that in accepting her thoughtful gifts she is asking you to compromise your beliefs?Is it a fundamental lack of respect for your beliefs or is it that she doesn't feel you would be compromised unless you jump right into buying her stuff out of guilt? She sounds like a lovely and very thoughtful woman, one you don't want to lose due to misunderstanding. My advice.....talk to her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:00 PM

Well, my first thought is that she is celebrating her own feelings and beliefs about Christmas. If you leave it in the area of who is violating whose boundaries and beliefs, it comes down to do you let her violate yours or do you violate hers? This leaves a no-win dilemma between two people who seem to care for one another. Control struggles are lose-lose situations.

Alternatively, what would be a loving response that fits the context of your relationship with her? Love is win-win, every time.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:00 PM

Fuck your principles and consider how fortunate you are to have found someone who has that much interest in what you like. She probably writes off your anti-Christmas as just a curmudgeon's bah-humbug attitude that she may well hope changes, but I doubt she expects that. Although she knows how you feel about Christmas, perhaps she has an even more important feeling toward you.

Just a thought.......

Say, want me to call her and have her order up some kangaroo scrotum stuff for you?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:15 PM

No matter what time of year it is, what Holiday, she's giving you gifts from her heart. Because of her belief system, she may have just as great a need to give them as you have to not get them, and one of you really needs to bend a bit. If she gave them to you for a reason other than Christmas, would it be a problem? Is dislike for something a more important motivation than like...or love?

I guess it comes down to deciding who will be hurt more: your girlfriend, if you reject the gifts, or you, if you accept them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST,ermintrudeclaire
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:15 PM

i'd go fo just thinking of them as presesnts and thinking of the love that went into choosing them and let the beliefs slip for a while. imho!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:24 PM

Okay, it seems we're pretty unanimous so far......you're an asshole.

No, really man, you do need to talk some more and all of that, but it seems you have a right fine partner there.....Don't let this one get between you.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:34 PM

Iecho what everyone else has said, & add that I'm off the opinion thta you should look on them as a 'love gift', & not an 'Xmas gift'.

It might be as hard for her NOT to give something, as it is for you to consider accepting it.

Just be pleased that she is willing to give you these things (with the great effort of making carefully-considered choices) while accepting the fact that your principles mean she wont be receiving a gift in return.

ENJOY...cos it seems like you have found a good 'un there!


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 04:34 PM

Besides, Christianity aside, you could look at them as celebrations of the weather!! Or the rotation of the bloody earth!! I mean you don't mind using the names of the months, do you, whether you believe in Janus or Februs or Juno, nor the names of the weekdays whether you acknowledge Thor and Wodin or not? So wass big hairy deal? If your clarity about Xmas is as clear as you make it sound you shouldn't feel too compromised because someone wants to show you they loveyou for crying out loud!!

Bite my tongue. Hug her most warmly for her kindness.

A. Curmudgeon


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Mudlark
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 04:38 PM

My husband was a bah-humbugger over xmas as well, and furthermore, disliked feeling "obligated" by any holiday to have to do the whole gift thing, on demand, so to speak. I, on the other hand, love xmas, love giving and getting gifts, the whole 9 yards. It took us a while but we finally worked it out that I did my thing, put up a tree, decorated, got him a gift, but only if and when I found something really meaningful to him, no matter how large or small. And in return he got to do his thing....nothing. As it turned out, eventually, not feeling obligated to do anything allowed him to come to really enjoy the tree and, if timing and opportunity presented itself, to even get me something too that I really wanted. No pressure on either side helped us both to have what we wanted.

Work it out. It sounds like you have a loving and caring relationship with each other...in terms of priorities far more important than the details of how a holiday is celebrated. Might help you both to know why you feel the way you do (and why she feels the way SHE does!). Good luck...and Happy Winter Solstice!



Nancy


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 04:39 PM

Good point, Amos!


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:01 PM

I shouldn't, cause I know I'm gonna catch hell, but I can't help myself... refuse the gifts. If you love her, tell her that this refusal is a symbol of that love... that you don't need gifts to appreciate her love, nor do you need her to demonstrate her love through giving you gifts.

Besides, it's just more stuff to fight over when you break up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM

Ooooops!!! I may have been too quick on that one. Are you staying at her place, HOMELESS ? If that's the case, depending on the weather, you may want not to piss her off, lest the breakup comes sooner that anticipated, resulting in loss of both key and CD's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

Well, as the '12 Days of Christmas' don't start until 26th December, her gifts clearly have nothing to do with the festival that you abhor.

Accept them as simply as gifts from someone who loves you, and enjoy.

Paul

PS She sounds nicer than you


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:57 PM

Ancient chinese proverb"Man who who cannot compromise finish up very lonely"


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Subject: grumblings is right! :-)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:59 PM

There is nothing intrinsically christian about Christmas... (Dec 25th was NOT Jesus birthday!!!!) It's just one of the many many ancinet pagan festivals co-opted by them because they knew that the locals would RIOT if the 'priests' of old told them they were no longer allowed to celebrate their festivals!

That said, just about every 'traditional' belief structure that I can think of off the top of my head has some kind of 'mid winter' celebration... and gifts are often part of those parties...

So my advice is to enjoy the hell out of the gifts, because they are obviously given in love!!

And I hope Dickens 3 ghosts pay you a visit some time soon, Scrooge!

"COME IN ANF KNOW ME BETTER, MAN!"

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:09 PM

The way I try to accept 'Christmas' gifts is to acknowledge them as a gift for the upcoming new year, because a new year is special to me. In between times, I make a point of saying that I much prefer to buy/give something because some item reminded me of the person rather than because of a particular day or season. Yes, even birthday gifts. I realize mine is a lonely voice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:23 PM

Why is 'Homeless' getting given such a hard time here???


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:43 PM

Cause we love Homeless, so we give him a hard time...

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM

Homeless, from what I've heard, you two have had good comunication from the start and also something very special between you. This needs to be discussed openly and honestly between you two. Personally, I love to give and receive, and if I were you, I would accept them and see them as a Solstice celebration, Yule, whathaveyou.

When there's two of you, compromise/accomodating each other's differences/beliefs is a good way of staying together. Sometimes, for the other person's sake, it is better to be a gracious receiver and not make too much of an issue. If you do that instead of talking it out right now, later in the year, you might bring it up and talk some more about it and decide on some guidelines you both agree to, for next year or any other types of situations like this.

I hope this helps and that you pay no attention to the negative predictions of others. I know something of this "love story" and it is special! (Sorry, if that makes you blush!)

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM

Trust the Wnechnet to have the inside scoop on every love story in town!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:10 PM

I mean, of course, the Official Authorized Mudcat Wenchnet. An auxiliary organization of the Mudcat Green Tea and Literary Society.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:11 PM

If you expect someone to respect your beliefs, the best way to start is to respect theirs. I've exchanged "Christmas" presents for years with Atheists. When they give me a gift, I graciously accept it out of love. They know that Christmas means a great deal to me... not because I like getting gifts. I get those every morning when I get out of bed and walk across the room. I know that they don't share my belief, and that their gifts are given out of love, not in celebration of the birth of Christ. I respect their beliefs(believing God doesn't exist is still a "belief," and they respect mine. I love them for who they are, and they love me for who I am.

I thought that's what it's all about....

Jerry

Sounds like you got a mighty sweet woman..


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:34 PM

Do they 'Save' women, Amos, like the Salavation Army do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Homeless
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 11:53 PM

Y'all have given me a bit to think about, which is what I was looking for. Thanx, everyone.

Upon reflection, my anti-Christmas feelings stem more from the percieved obligation, the thoughtless/worthless gifts, the extreme overcommercialization, and the way that one religeon's holiday is crammed down our throats.

When I wrote that message earlier today, I was seeing this gift from that viewpoint. What's she's given me the past two days obviously doesn't fit any of that description. She and I are constantly giving each other gifts, from little things (last night when we were out I took the plastic ring off the lid of a bottle of water, folded and twisted it up into a star, and handed it to her. Tonight I see that she's brought it home and it's now in her jewelry box) to much larger or more expensive things (right now I'm working on a crochet shawl because she always wears sweaters at work and mentioned in passing at the store that she really liked a particular yarn. While I don't think I can crochet a sweater, I think a shawl should be within my meager abilities). It was just that she had mentioned it being the first day of Christmas that was bothering me. And yes, we both know that those 12 days are the days following the holiday, not preceding it, but she prefers to lead up to it.

Yesterday when I saw the CD she was sitting here in the office. I kind of went pokerfaced, which she noticed right away. Later in the day she asked if I was annoyed at her giving me a gift, and told me it wasn't for Xmas, it was just because she wanted to give me something, which I knew was an offer of compromise. It's been a little uncomfortable for both of us, because we both know of the belief conflict, but it hasn't caused any real problems.

Yes, I saw it as a no-win situation, and knew that I was being an ass to come from my viewpoint, but there I was. I just needed a little kick in order to see things another way. So tomorrow, if she gives me something else, I'll try my best to accept it gracefully and joyfully. Good enough?

Amos - funny you should mention Thor and Wodin...
Spaw - sure, I've wanted a kangaroo scrotum pouch for years. But it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing you'd get for yourself. And anytime I've tried to drop a hint to someone they always look at me like I'm crazy.
gnu - yeah, I'm staying at her place. But hell, if it ain't gonna work I just as soon get out now, damn the weather. Wouldn't be the first time I've woken up with frost in my beard.
Paul - yeah, I think she's much nicer than I am.
Clinton - and if the ghosts did show up I'd more than likely tell 'em to go piss up a rope and that I'd rather talk to my grandad and to please send him this way.
Biscuitless Regular - While I'm not so conversant in threads anymore, I've had PM or e-mail conversations with lots of these people, so they know me well enough to give me a hard time. And besides, I think that's what I was looking for.

So thanx for straightening me out, y'all. I (we) appreciate it.

Oh, and after listening to that Troubadours CD a few times, I beginning to think that you folkies might have something worth paying attention to after all. *bseg*

Homeless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: JenEllen
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:08 AM

Well, as a member of the Wenchnet, I have to tell you that ya done good in talking it out with her. You have a really great foundation to start from, and if this is the worst thing you have to complain about....*g*
yours in br's
~spritey


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:10 AM

I think if she gives you one or two gifts somewhere in the season, you should graciously accept them. If she is giving you a heartfelt gift every day for each of the 12 days, that is a bit imposing on her part. In fact it is an attempt to control I would say. That goes way beyond what most people do in terms of gift giving unless she is from a culture that routinely does that. You can respect each other's policies while maintaining your own, unless it gets extreme on either side. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:05 AM

Tonight Karen and I went out together for the first time in months. Connie and Wayne kept the kids and for a few hours we had a date. It wasn't a big deal, just a Christmas Party for the Lab at the hospital where she works. Great meal in a posh country club and in the midst of a few hundred people we still managed to feel renewed.

Tonight for the first time in far too long we danced together and by the look on her face, the look in her eyes, I knew this simple thing was as great a gift as I could give her this Christmas. And that same look was for me the very best thing I will get too. There will be a few other tokens here and there, but our gifts have been passed between us. If you have the love of your life and the one you never expected to find, if you can provide a moment between you that enrichens all that yoor lives mean.......It doesn't get any better than that.

Wayne, the best gift you may ever get for a long time is the feeling you got when she put that simple star in her jewelry box and it may well be something she will cherish as well. Take all the gifts there are between the two of you and be happy with them all.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:19 AM

'enrichens', 'Spaw? *GRINS*

..not mocking you, fella, it was as much of a typo as anything else, I guess, but it just reminds me of a thing in the 'Simpsons', about "something-something-something (I FORGET what it is) EMBIGGENS the Soul"....

*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:15 PM

Homeless,

It is my opinion that you haven't given us enough information about the situation. On the one hand, you say the two of you discussed your feelings about Christmas extensively, but did you also: 1) discuss her feelings about Christmas extensively, and; 2) come to a mutual agreement as to how the two of you would celebrate/not celebrate this year specifically?

If you simply told her you hate Christmas, and don't celebrate it, with no further understanding of how the two of you would get through the holiday season together, then you were being manipulative.

On the other hand, if you did listen to her feelings about Christmas (which are obviously pretty pro-Christmas from your description of her gift giving to you), and the two of you still agreed NOT to exchange gifts, then she is being manipulative.

If you have done none of the above, I'm with the recommendations of people above, which is to accept graciously--and reciprocate in kind. Not necessarily with consumer goods--as Spaw pointed out, maybe doing something really special or meaningful for her will make you feel you haven't compromised your values for hers, yet will still make you feel as though you have been loving and giving in return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:28 PM

Heh!

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 03:57 PM

People give you things because they want to bless you. They feel moved to do it. At least that's why I give people things, anyway, and it sounds like that's why she's giving you something - because she wants to make you smile.

I can't really say as I blame you, Homeless, because I have had some of those feelings too. I would really rather that my family members not give me anything at all. And I have told my mother that before... Mom, I don't need anything, really you don't have to get anything for me. But she does, 'cause she's my mom, and she just wants to give me something nice. So I smile and say Thank You, and if I get it home and decide it's really not for me, I'll pass it along to someone who can appreciate it.

Mister and I decided this year we were only going to get each other One Thing. That didn't last very long.

Personally, I really enjoy giving people presents, especially when they don't expect it. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Cappuccino
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:10 PM

Yes, giving is fun. The older I get, the more I enjoy giving things, and if people accept them in the same spirit, so much the better.

Clinton, that was a woonderful phrase: 'there is nothing intrinsically Christian about Christmas'. With greatest respect, old boy, there has to be something Christian about Christ-time... but indeed, not necessarily about Dec 25th!!!

Mudcatter Jeannie and I led worship at an Oxfordshire church service on the feast of Tabernacles (October-ish) and wished the congregation Happy Christmas, on the grounds that it was one of the likely dates. We got a very strange reaction!!!

Happy december - Ian B


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:55 AM

Lucky you, Homey As she's got off to a great start, keep us posted as to the next 10 CDs. Merry Bloody Christmas from the fB


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:23 AM

I want to know who stole Spaw's cookie. About the only thing of consequence here is the rantings of the old looney - now where the f**k are you?

And for the thread - I worked on Indian Reservations for much too long and they have a saying, "Accept and acceptance." If you accept your partner then you accept who she is. And vice-versa - she accepts you as you are. Just try not to be grumpy about it. When I get grumpy it always bites me on the ass. But good for you for accepting things with your partner.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 03:22 PM

Yeah, Clinton. True word of wisdom. Apparently, there aren't many posters to this thread that share your knowledge and understanding of the fairer sex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:49 PM

I stopped being a believer (if I ever was one) 40 or so years ago. However, I gladly celebrate Christmas with family and friends as a folk holiday, which it was long before the winter soltice was co-opted by Christian missionaries to the north European pagans and heathens. It sounds as if your friend has taken a great deal of trouble to find gifts that will please you, and is respecting your (dis)belief by coming up with an alternative to giving you a whole pile of stuff Christmas morning. Treasure what you have, and good luck to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM

There is a difference between a "gift" and a "present" in my definition. A "gift" is something someone gave to you for *you*, purely because they knew you would like it, and for no other reason. Gifts are altruistic. They are selfless.

A present is something that the other person wants you to have. Sometimes presents are entirely for the person giving them. When a man gives slinky lingerie to a woman, that is a "present".

In my own way of thinking, when someone goes to the trouble of selflessly searching for the exact right thing to give me (for whatever occasion...X-mas or other), I say sincerely "Thank you! You went to a lot of trouble for me, and I appreciate it".

I am a little perplexed as to why X-mas gifts are against your principals. Could you elaborate some?


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Subject: RE: BS: Xmas beliefs/pride grumblings
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:15 AM

Oh, I dunno, Celtic, I like lingerie just as much as Mister does.............. that's the sort of present that's really for both parties. ;-)


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Mudcat time: 4 August 10:29 AM EDT

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