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BS: John Walker. What to do?

GUEST,fo 07 Apr 02 - 08:20 PM
GUEST 06 Apr 02 - 11:21 PM
GUEST 06 Apr 02 - 04:32 AM
GUEST 05 Apr 02 - 06:04 AM
Rick Fielding 31 Mar 02 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,DM 30 Mar 02 - 08:43 PM
InOBU 30 Mar 02 - 07:40 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 02 - 01:30 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 02 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 04 Jan 02 - 01:35 AM
JedMarum 20 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM
Sorcha 19 Dec 01 - 01:53 AM
Sorcha 19 Dec 01 - 01:48 AM
Ebbie 19 Dec 01 - 01:07 AM
Amos 19 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM
Art Thieme 18 Dec 01 - 11:45 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Dec 01 - 11:20 PM
Lepus Rex 18 Dec 01 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 18 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM
Art Thieme 18 Dec 01 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,both eyes open 18 Dec 01 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM
GUEST 18 Dec 01 - 03:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 01 - 11:46 AM
Steve in Idaho 18 Dec 01 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,both eyes open 18 Dec 01 - 02:35 AM
DougR 18 Dec 01 - 01:16 AM
marty D 18 Dec 01 - 12:56 AM
Art Thieme 17 Dec 01 - 10:57 PM
DougR 17 Dec 01 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,McGrath 17 Dec 01 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 17 Dec 01 - 08:39 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Dec 01 - 10:13 AM
Steve in Idaho 17 Dec 01 - 10:12 AM
JedMarum 17 Dec 01 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 01 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Dan K. 16 Dec 01 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM
DougR 15 Dec 01 - 06:29 PM
heric 15 Dec 01 - 06:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 01 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 15 Dec 01 - 05:36 PM
gnu 15 Dec 01 - 05:28 PM
sc 15 Dec 01 - 05:18 PM
heric 15 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM
Amos 15 Dec 01 - 04:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 01 - 03:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 01 - 03:36 PM
Amos 15 Dec 01 - 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,fo
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 08:20 PM

Like it or not, Walker did nothing wrong. He simply expressed his religious freedom through his right to free speech and related expression.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 11:21 PM

Thread Creep?

>The Hobbit, was clearly the one of those in that tale who were real tragic hero types.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 04:32 AM

An excerpt from the book:

"Yes, I Supported" the 9/11 Attack on America. - John Walker Lindh

Sweet, shy, sensitive, John Walker Lindh, at age 14, was a confused, unhappy, angry little boy with a fascination for the violent rhythms of hip-hop music. By age 16, his anger was directed at Jews, Gays, Zionists, Christians, and White America. In 1998, after converting to Islam, and while still living in California, John Walker Lindh joined a "Pakistan-based jehadi organization" with suspected links to terrorists and Islamic extremists dedicated to the overthrow of "moderate" Islamic governments and the United States of America. That same year John Walker Lindh left for Yemen to attend language school, but then dropped out and disappeared after just two weeks. For the next eight months he apparently made contact with militants at the Islamic University, only to be apprehended and returned to the U.S.

John Walker Lindh wanted to be a holy warrior. The presence of U.S. forces and U.S. ships off the coast of Yemen and other Muslim nations was "an act of war against Islam" he declared. In the year 2000 he returned to Yemen on a mission which coincided with the bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen--blamed on al-Qaeda and Islamic militants attending Yemen's Islamic University.

Mission accomplished, John Walker left Yemen for Pakistan where he met with Taliban officials, and then journeyed to Afghanistan where he swore allegiance to al-Qeada and Osama bin Laden who personally thanked John Walker for his assistance and his help.

Osama bin Laden had preached: "Death to America!"

But was it the United States which John Walker wished to destroy, or his unknown face?

The story of John Walker, is a story of a young man at war with himself for he hated and repeatedly sought to jettison and destroy his true identity.

John Walker Lindh convinced himself that imitation is reality. "If you imitate a people, you'll be regarded as one of them... even if you commit unimaginable sins."

John Walker Lindh was on a quest for personal purity. He joined a religion that encouraged him to pick up a gun and to kill his fellow Muslims, and American women and men.

Yet imitation is not reality, which is why John Walker Lindh, in picking up the martyr's gun, was aiming not for the "Great Satan" or the United States, but at something far more evil and full of sin... his own unknown face.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:04 AM

A Taliban detainee held by U.S. forces in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is a U.S. citizen.

The man, identified as Yasser Esam Hamdi, is the second American citizen -- the other is John Walker Lindh, now in U.S. civilian custody -- captured in Afghanistan alongside Taliban and al Qaeda fighters last fall.

The detainee's parents were Saudi nationals employed in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where Hamdi was born, the official said. The family moved back to Saudi Arabia when the detainee was a toddler.

According to a defense official, the prisoner has claimed that he was born in Baton Rouge since his capture and has a birth certificate.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 12:09 AM

In a previous post I was concerned what would happen when he got a PRESS agent. Today's paper is advertising a FUCKING BOOK about him! I guess a LITERARY agent is needed before a press agent. And some may wonder why I'm cynical.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,DM
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 08:43 PM

Name a Whiskey after him and sell it in Afganistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:40 AM

Could it be they are hiding him in the Walker family compound in Kennybunkport? in hopes that if we loose the war they can make him the leader of the American Taliban, that way the Walker Bush family has a trump either way?
Oh come on, have a chuckle, Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:30 AM

Are you sleeping?
Are you sleeping?
Brother John, brother John?


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:52 PM

What has happened? Where is he now? Why don't we read anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 02 - 01:35 AM

What Has Happened To Him? Has Anyone Written a Song?


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM

John Walker's Osama bin Laden link


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:53 AM

Please post to part II, click here.. This is message 148 in this thread, which means that some users cannot access it. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:48 AM

OK, guys. I'm not in on this, but at 146 posts, it's time to start # 2. I'll do it, and call it John Walker Part II. If it's that important, please post there, OK? Link will be provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:07 AM

Art, thanks. Good food for thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM

Hear, hear, Art. The argument of the vehement is always based on "these are the facts at this moment" -- meaning, given the facts we have, clearly, John Walker is a treasonous SOB, for example....

But ya know, moments are like rubber -- they stretch and shrink. If an entire lifetime can flash before your eyes in a few seconds, it seems wise to realize that things look a little more balanced in ten-year-long "moments" than they do in ten-day-long moments. On the other hand, we have all experienced times when the entire truth sorted itself out in moment that lasted ten microseconds and that was all the perspective that was needed.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:45 PM

And now the kamikaze pilots are meeting with our U.S. Navy guys and letting begonias be begonias bygones be bygones. Those that landed at Omaha Beach are walking those shores and chatting with some of those who were charged with trying to kill them almost 60 years ago. Norman Schwartzkopf is meeting Viet Cong soldiers in Viet Nam and trying hard to put those ghosts to rest. I'm just trying to see John Walker with shades of gray instead of Bush's-- "You're either with us, or against us !" -- it's either black or white kind of all-or-nothing reasoning. Here and now, in these latter days, I would hope that we have evolved way past that. But I know that many fail to recognize the possibility that evolution even exists at all. So I guess we must not be much past the Neanderthals after all.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:20 PM

Guest - both eyes open,
I rarely do unless provoked into the recall. It's my job to remember. For all of those who can't.

Mary Garvey - (((((HUGS))))) be well Sis.

This one's over for me - Need more - PM me.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:11 PM

Wow, this thread's still going, huh? Lots of interesting thoughts. Lots of amusing/disturbing patriotic/nationalistic crap that was already lame 40 years ago. Fun! :)

And 'Creepus Lex,' fake GUEST? Please, stop. Nonsensical rhyming insults are my Achilles' heel.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM

she should never be allowed to drop from history. Her name should live on forever right along Benedict Arnold. It should be synonymous with traitor. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM

People get into these thigs for all kinds of reasons. My father fought in Spain as a volunteer - but he was on the other side.

To him the Republicans in Spain were the people who were burning churches and killing nuns, sort of Black and Tans, the sort he'd seen in action in Ireland. He found himself on the other side to people he'd fought alongside in the Civil War in Ireland - and on the other side to where I'd place myself for that matter.

And after Spain was over, he came back, and joined the British Army and fought against the Germans for six years all through North Africa and Italy.

When people do what they think is right it can get them into some strange places. And there's some good advice in the New Testament about throwing stones.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:07 PM

My friend Ed Balchowsky, an American member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade who lost an arm in the Spanish Civil War only to be addicted to morphine for the next 30 years as a result of being given too much as pain medication following his recouperation, was a man who I admired tremendouly. Some saw him as a hero of sorts. Others saw Ed as a villian. I saw him as a youthful, advernturous and typical idealistic young person who did what comes naturally to the young. He followed what was CORRECT/RIGHT for him at the moment when possibly too much testosterone was colliding with his extreme ignorance to shape, and maybe warp, his impulses and choices. I made my own share of those "choices" when there, really, seemed to be NO CHOICE at all. It was clear in his mind what had to be done---and fully half of the people who went to Spain were killed there. Personally, I am still inspired by their dedication and their adventure. BUT I think the Gollum character, in The Lord Of The Rings and The Hobbit, was clearly the one of those in that tale who were real tragic hero types. (He was no Frodo, but an archetype nonetheless. He, like Walker, is not admirable or to be emulated. But I see some of myself in both of these creatures---and, indeed, in most people I know.-------------These are the people I'd rather be with in a bar swapping songs with when obligation and guilt haul me to less compelling family doings. -------- And yes, I'd love to have a beer or two with Walker ten or a dozen years down the pike. I think it'd be a great conversation.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,both eyes open
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 07:12 PM

Well, I looked up the text of what Jane said during the war as well as subsequent apologies. Lots of good stuff at http://www.snopes2.com Her (spoken) offenses were far greater than I had ever believed. Her (half-assed) apologies were ridiculous. One would think she just doesn't get it. People like that...I guess I'd have to say the hell with Jane Fonda. She's pretty much dropped out of the public eye and hopefully will stay there. Steve, if I were you I think I would consider the woman unworthy of another thought. The less her name is in print or mentioned, the sooner she will be forgotten. While I stand by the rest of what I said, I stand corrected on the issue of "that woman."


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM

Just in case of misunderstanding - when I said there about "none of the people who ran the war and caused the killing ever having apologised" I wasn't talking about the people who were out there in Vietnam doing the fighting, I was talking about high-ups who ran the war, and ran the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 03:58 PM

I'm sure that people like Creepus Lex who object to CNN will find Al-Jazeera's balanced reporting more to their liking.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:46 AM

I notice Norton ignored the point about how none of the people who ran the war and caused the killing ever having apologised.

And the killing is still going on, remember - people are still dying from the effect of Agent Orange out in Vietnam, and babies are being born mutilated.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:44 AM

When did Jane apologize? I watched that interview and I think she may have alluded to an apology - but do you have a quote? And after doing some negative things does that excuse it?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,both eyes open
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 02:35 AM

Who caused more young American lives to be lost for nought? Jane Fonda? Or Richard Nixon? Or Henry Kissinger? At least Jane apologized for her idiocy. Nixon (the great crook) and Kissinger (who some would still love to try as a war criminal) grew older and became (God knows how) respected senior spokesmen. Just because we're right at this point in time to destroy Bin Laden and the Taliban doesn't mean we have a squeaky clean record over the years. And once this current mess is over, or nearly so, hopefully we as a country will take a look at the bigger picture and see that we are not entirely blameless. When Malcolm X spoke of the "chickens coming home to roost" after JFK's assassination, there was much public indignation. There was also some sound logic behind his comment. If we, as a country, spent more time and energy exporting true democracy, and less support for petty tyrants we might find ourselves viewed as something other than the "great satan." If we forced our corporations to pay a living wage and real benefits to all workers instead of utilizing sweat shops and exporting work to "developing" countries, we might be less despised. We have the potential for greatness. Unfortunately we settle for mediocrity and millionaire politicians with special agendas. John Walker, like so much else, is a symptom, not a cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 01:16 AM

Well Art, you have a right to admire whomever you please, of course, but I do too. I admire those young people who make good choices, Walker doesn't seem to have made many in his young life, at least that's the way it appears to me. Had he chosen to become a good Muslim, as the majority of them appear to be, I would agree with you. His choice was to join a radical wing of Islam that plans and executes innocent people. There's nothing much to admire about that in my view.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: marty D
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 12:56 AM

Well put Art. I SORT OF agree with you. I'm perhaps not objective enough yet about the guy to see it that way, but I understand where you're coming from.

Does anyone else want to do a part two of this? I thought we'd get about 40 posts, but Walker's story appears to be just starting. I think Rick is spot on that it's going to be a TV public relations battle from now on. But I wish it wasn't.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:57 PM

He ought to be held up as a prime roll model for any young person seeking his own road less travelled---someone who went down a certain path because he was dedicated to his beliefs as much as John Payne, Che Guevara, La Passsionaria (Delores Ibarruri) or my own mentor, Pete Seeger.

The mistake he made was being on the side that is losing. For sure, his story will not be told by friendly biographers. I feel that is probably as it ought to be. I don't stand behind what he did. But I admire his misguided attempt to be the master of his own adventure while being true to a youthful ideal. That's what youth is for as I see it. Not for going down the wrong road (hopefully) but choices are always a bit of a crap-shoot. It's a classic tragedy---the person whose fall is ordained by his own failings and shortcomings. I doubt it'd make a very good folksong---but it might make a great opera ! And if Shakespeare was still around----and enough time went by to allow hatreds to fade and one more good story to inspire art once again...

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:21 PM

Latest news reports that Walker was a trained membre of Alqueda (sp?), McGrath. Does that mean he committed an offence?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:48 PM

"If Hicks was working with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and not connected to hostilities against parties outside the country, he may not have committed an offence."

That was essentially the point I was making in respect of Walker. If it turns out he was involved in other ways, that's be another matter. I'd be reluctant to rely on anything said in military interrogation - there's too much history in Northern Ireland for example that throws very severe doubt on that kind of stuff. Those are circumstances in which people are likely to say anything at all, if they think that is what the interrogators want to hear.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:39 PM

It now seems that an Australian,David Hicks,has been involved in Afghan politics.
This was reported in todays (18th) 'Sydney Morning Herald', I cut and paste most of this report as they only keep the page active for 24 hours.

Start Quote

Australian David Hicks, who trained extensively with Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist group, was handed
over to United States authorities early yesterday, more than a week after his capture by the Northern Alliance.
Hicks's capture raised "a number of legal questions relating to potential offences under Australian law"
which were still being considered, the ministers said.

"We can assure Australians that if Mr Hicks has committed a crime against Australian law, the Government
will do whatever is necessary to bring him to justice."

But the legal position is unclear. If Hicks was working with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and not connected to
hostilities against parties outside the country, he may not have committed an offence. If he was with al-Qaeda, he would have.

Meanwhile, reports that a second Australian had been captured by Allied forces in Afghanistan could not be confirmed yesterday.

End of quote.

Stories are starting to be printed about the possibility that Britons have become involved with the losing side of the Afghanistan conflict too.


More videos have been found in abandoned Taliban/al-Qaeda caves,it is not certain what the contents are but reports
suggest they are Arnold Schwarzenegger/Sylvester Stallone/Bruce Willis type of movies that the Taliban
have been using,for training purposes,in an attempt to 'know your enemy' and find out what will be 'on the other side of the hill'.

Tongue out of cheek.
CD.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:13 AM

And moot also -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:12 AM

Well it is all a mute point - he has an attorney now.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:01 AM

It was clear from some of John's earliest comments that he had been trained for terrorist actions, and that he had direct conact with al Qaeda training, camps and activities. I don't think any of that changes the argument much. He took up arms against his country, based upon his beliefs. Assuming he stands by those beliefs he will face the consequences of his actions. If he changes his stand, and either fights through legal means any court actions, or if he decides he was a victim of some powerful foreign brainwashing oranization, he will face the consequences of his actions based upon how well the court believes him.

If I were deciding his fate I'd decide how to proceed with his case depending upon how he cooperated and how strong a man of conviction I thought he was. The best he could for is a US Civil court, and I'd only go there if I was sure of the evidence and his level of cooperation.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 09:56 PM

A large pinch of salt with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,Dan K.
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 06:32 PM

Whatever the facts, this boy did take a walk on the wild side.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/673497.asp?cp1=1


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM

Attacking the World Trade Centre involving the deaths of people from all countries was surely very much an attack on the world as a whole, specifically an attack on America.

As a criminal act carried out on United States teritory there is obviously good reason for the relevant trials to be carried out under the American legal system in America.

In fact I can't see that it would count as a war crime, which is as well. War crimes tend to go unpunished, which is something I would like to see changed, which is why I would like to see an International War Crime Tribunal set up, which is something that almost all civilised governments have indicated that in principal they are agreed on.

But that's got nothing to do with Walker's involvement with the Taliban, since there doesn't seem any reason to think he was a terrorist. Being on the losing side in a war is not in itself a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:29 PM

It doesn't warrant an international war crimes tribunal, McGrath. My opinion only of course. The terrorists attacked the United States, not the world, and the U. S. should determine what happens to him.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: heric
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:26 PM

>>>If that is the defence, it looks a pretty solid one.<<<

No, not that he knew after the fact that they were conspirators. He knew (or should have known), while fighting on their behalf, that they were conspirators-after-the-fact (after the crime.) He knew (or should have known) they were harboring, aiding and abetting a criminal (and enemy of the State) after the criminal had been accused by the State. Not a good place to be. He took up arms against his countrymen to protect an accused criminal who has threatened to do more harm to Walker's countrymen. Bad, bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:48 PM

"Walker's best defense seems to be that he only knew of them as conspirators after the fact, and feared any attempts to extricate himself from involvement "

If that is the defence, it looks a pretty solid one.

Whatever involvement the Taliban may have had with Al Qaida or whatever is pretty high level stuff, hardly of any relevance to charges against the equivalent of a private.

As for the prison mutiny or whatever it was, that is very murky territory. Given the way it panned out, it sounds suspiciously like a massacre in which some of the prisoners, having been allowed to keep their weapons for some strange reason, used them. More like Wounded Knee than anything. Maybe that wasn't how it actually was - but it doesn't, on the face of it, sound much like something where an insignificant prisoner (which is what Walker appears to have been) would have had any advance confirmation to give, even if he'd wanted to.

This just isn't something where talk of trials, let alone executions and so forth, makes any sense at all. Of course that doesn't mean it might not happen that way, but if it does it will be a real own goal.

Trials after all wars should be reserved for war criminals, whatever side they are on. Roll on the establishment of a properly organised international war crimes tribunal to help that along.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:36 PM

My sentiments tend toward Gnu's. "Politically" I don't think this little snot is worth a bullet. It means next to nothing in my perspective that a nation as populous as America produces ONE lost soul. Remember the dozen or so American POW's in Korea who decided to stay with their comrades after the war. For a while; I think most eventually drifted back to the US if they could. So let him stew in his own juice. What really pisses me off--and this is so chauvinistic I'm putting my flak vest on--is that all America knows the name of this little tird and nobody knows about any of the first group of Rangers, for example, that went in on the ground in that first raid. Equal time for those doing it right, I say.

CC


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:28 PM

Gee. He's just a boy. I say send him home and let his old man spank him. Wait, spanking's not legal anymore, is it ? Perhaps that's how he got there in the first place ?

Why is he still alive anyway ? Why is he not laying beside the rest of the sonsobitches that laid the ambush that they did. They gave up, kept weapons and rose up to kill those to whom they surrendered. All's fair ? Okay then. It wouldn't have even made the news had I been in charge that day... just a smoking hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: sc
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:18 PM

Maybe he didn't know, Amos. Not everyone is privvy to every escape plan in prison ya know; particularly if they are a potential 'rat'.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: heric
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:14 PM

McGraw, I don't think it's nearly as clean as you suggest. The U.S. was accusing the Taleban of harboring the terrorist bin Laden for up to a year before the WTC, and had, I believe, threatened bombing before September 11. At the minimum, Walker was aiding an abetting a group that was knowingly, at a minumum again, providing aid, shelter, safe harbor and support after the fact to a declared enemy of the U.S. Walker was aligned with conspirators against the U.S.

It seems likely that the Taleban were conspirators before the fact, as well, even if they were not the direct actors in the WTC. They knew what bin Laden and his gang intended against officials and civilians of western nations, what he had been accused of and what he had taken credit for in the past. They had negotiated his "extradition," (according to news reports), to no agreement, before 9/11. They also (according to news reports) accepted his money in exchange for their "protection," such as it was. The degree to which Walker may have known the Taleban were enemies of the U.S., before the U.S. declared it and made it official, is a question of fact, known currently only to him.

Walker's best defense seems to be that he only knew of them as conspirators after the fact, and feared any attempts to extricate himself from involvement. That's a weak defense when the loss of others' lives is at stake.

Still, I can't imagine wanting to kill him. I can readily understand wanting to cut him loose and let him drift away.


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 04:26 PM

The only specific I have heardis that he was interrogated by the CIA guy who was later killed in the prison uprising, and failed to tell hm any such uprising was in the offing or even that theprisoners were heavily armed and still bloody-minded. So it could be said he betrayed the United States by that omission, electing to continue his role as a Teleb. But if he had not, he might have been in grimmer risk of his life.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:42 PM

I can't really see what he's supposed to have done wrong.

The man goes out to a country where the regime in power is in fact one which has been armed and supported by the USA, gets recruited by the organisation that is ruining the place. Not a regime I like, but that's not relevant. Right, he's in uniform, insofar as they have uniforms. Probably does some fighting in the civil war against the Northern Alliance that has been going on for ever. But in no sense did joining the Taleban mean that he was taking up arms against the USA.

Then the Americans get involved, after September 11th, which noone suggests was a Taleban operation. The only reason they came into the picture was that they refused to hand Bin Laden over, which may have been foolish, but wasn't an act of war in itself.

So the Americans respond by getting into the war in support of the Northern Alliance - but they aren't exactly in range of a foot soldier with a gun, even if he wanted to take up arms against the, They are dropping bombs and sending missiles and so forth. The actual fighting is still against the Northern Alliance. It doesn't seem particularly likely that an ordinary foot soldier would ever have come up against any of the relative handful of non Nor then Alliance ground soldiers, American or British or whatever.

Then he gets captured and taken at a holding facility where a confusing time was had by all, and large numbers of prisoners were killed during and following a mutiny. And an American is killed by some of them - no suggestion that John Walker has any involvement in this either.

And then he turns up as one of the handful of survivors.

What's he supposed to have done that was wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:36 PM

I can't really see what he's supposed to have done wrong.

The man goes out to a country where the regime in power is in fact one which has been armed and supported by the USA, gets recruited by the organisation that is ruining the place. Not a regime I like, but that's not relevant. Right, he's in uniform, insofar as they have uniforms. Probably does some fighting in the civil war against the Northern Alliance that has been going on for ever. But in no sense did joining the Taleban mean that he was taking up arms against the USA.

Then the Americans get involved, after September 11th, which noone suggests was a Taleban operation. The only reason they came into the picture was that they refused to hand him over, which may have been foolish, but wasn't an act of war in itself.

So the Americans respond by getting into the war in support of the Northern Alliance - but they aren't exactly in range of a foot soldier with a gun, even if he wanted to take up arms against the, They are dropping bombs and sending missiles and so forth. The actual fighting is still against the Northern Alliance. It doesn't seem particularly likely that an ordinary foot soldier would ever have come up against any of the relative handful of non Nor then Alliance ground soldiers, American or British or whatever.

Then he gets captured and taken at a holding facility where a confusing time was had by all, and large numbers of prisoners were killed during and following a mutiny. And an American is killed by some of them - no suggestion that John Walker has any involvement in this either.

And then he turns up as one of the handful of survivors.

What's he supposed to have done that was wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 11:24 AM

Kind of tough on his folks, though.

Thing is, if he were to transition to a more balanced place in the world, less fixated on the Beyond and less ready to dramatize violent killing, he'd probably be a very smart and able guy. I guess its up to him which turn in the trail he wants to follow. If he is fixed on martyrdom, he is stupider than I'd have thought, and will just be stuck porpoising through the life cycle one more silly time.

He's not central to the unfolding politics of the larger stage by any means. We can afford some tolerance here with as many gray issues as there are surrounding rights and wrongs. The final deal will probably be that he may be tried for taking up arms against the US, which he arguably did do. Arguably, although we were just fielding "advisors" and forward air-strike control troops at the time.

A


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