mudcat.org: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II

Related threads:
BS: The Cursed Child (J. K. Rowling) (15)
BS: Deathly Hallows Part 2 (55)
BS: Harry Potter film (Goblet of Fire) (21)
BS: If you had to spend the rest of your... (49)
BS: Harry Potter-isms!!! ... your caption (10)
BS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (143)
BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers (79)
Harry Pottering (130)
BS: Harry Potter - Order of the Phoenix (movie) (121)
BS: Harry Potter VII (Deathly H )Predictions (47)
BS: Stuff left out of Harry Potter (85)
BS: New Harry Potter cover revealed (16)
BS: New Harry Potter Book- green! (8)
BS: Harry Potter: Book 6 (Half-Blood Prince) (177)
BS: Harry Potter Book VII, Title competition (37)
BS: Harry Potter VI--HP & 1/2 Blood Prince (28)
BS: New Harry Potter Film (Prisoner of Azkaban) (143)
BS: Harry Potter, term 2 (48)
BS: Harry Potter: next book (Order of the Phoenix) (45)
BS: What Will Harry Do? (5)
BS: Harry Potter & the Chamber of Secrets film (47) (closed)
BS: Harry Potter Folklore (27) (closed)
Harry Potter: Good Witch or Bad Witch (108)
BS: Better Kid Flicks than Harry Potter (45) (closed)
BS: Harry Potter (110) (closed)
BS: Harry Potter, Official WB Website (75) (closed)
BS: Non-Music: Harry Potter (38) (closed)


Noreen 22 Nov 01 - 04:14 PM
Noreen 22 Nov 01 - 04:22 PM
John Hardly 22 Nov 01 - 08:40 PM
CarolC 23 Nov 01 - 12:00 AM
John Hardly 23 Nov 01 - 05:14 AM
CharlieA 23 Nov 01 - 06:04 AM
catspaw49 23 Nov 01 - 06:19 AM
CarolC 23 Nov 01 - 11:26 AM
Cappuccino 23 Nov 01 - 12:50 PM
Cappuccino 23 Nov 01 - 01:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 01 - 01:39 PM
wildlone 23 Nov 01 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 01 - 06:58 PM
lamarca 27 Nov 01 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,traveller 27 Nov 01 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 01 - 04:59 PM
lamarca 27 Nov 01 - 05:12 PM
Gareth 27 Nov 01 - 07:07 PM
SharonA 27 Nov 01 - 07:34 PM
Steve Latimer 27 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 01 - 08:58 PM
Celtic Soul 27 Nov 01 - 09:10 PM
Wolfgang 28 Nov 01 - 04:56 AM
lamarca 28 Nov 01 - 10:21 AM
PeteBoom 28 Nov 01 - 10:42 AM
John Hardly 28 Nov 01 - 11:30 AM
mousethief 28 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM
CarolC 28 Nov 01 - 04:56 PM
Steve Parkes 30 Nov 01 - 09:47 AM
Steve Parkes 30 Nov 01 - 09:52 AM
Noreen 30 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 01 - 06:36 PM
Hollowfox 01 Dec 01 - 11:08 AM
Nigel.Parsons 01 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Dec 01 - 05:19 PM
Grab 02 Dec 01 - 05:11 PM
twister 02 Dec 01 - 09:52 PM
Steve Parkes 03 Dec 01 - 03:13 AM
Steve Parkes 03 Dec 01 - 05:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Dec 01 - 06:51 AM
Troll 03 Dec 01 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,emily 03 Dec 01 - 04:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Dec 01 - 07:13 PM
Penny S. 04 Dec 01 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Amy Sue 04 Dec 01 - 05:54 PM
SharonA 04 Dec 01 - 06:35 PM
mousethief 04 Dec 01 - 06:48 PM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:








Subject: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 04:14 PM

John Hardly says: "I'll wait 'til someone makes a "Part II" thread and see if anyone is still interested in this topic.

There you go, folks...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 04:22 PM

This is a continuation of Harry Potter: Good Witch or Bad Witch (107 messages)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 08:40 PM

Well,
As a fundamentalist Christian I can tell you that I have no problem with HP. I rather enjoyed it and think it's a better than average kid's book. I would take Harry as a model for 11 year old behavior over the typical TV sitcom 11 year old any day (or is he 10?---I forget). He has a polite unassuming pleasantness to his nature.

I suppose I could acquiesce my claim to the name "Fundamentalist" 'cept that I truly believe it is I not "they" who have right claim to it. I say this because I believe in the fundamentals of the faith.

I will be quick to admit that it is tough sometimes to determine those things in which I might have a voice and will draw a line of suitable behavior for others.

I do think there are behaviors which my faith informs me are in society's best interest to adhere to. As I have a voice in that society I will take measures in my power to see that that remains the norm (no murder, theft, etc)

Here's where I think the Fundamentalist pretenders have it wrong. One of the very defining fundamentals is that God looks on the heart. Behavior, while important, is secondary (a by-product of belief, if you will). The interesting thing about how this should inform one's view of governing other's behaviors------no "fundamentalist" would ever believe that he could save a person's soul (let alone the society or the world) by forcing certain behaviors.

I will admit to personal struggles as to how this affects my views on homosexuality and the society. I am inclined to think that it doesn't affect society as a whole and therefore not make any decisions within my power to limit homosexual's rights (like, for instance vote for a candidate whose goal is to limit homosexuality). I've talked with a few of my friends who are gay and it only leaves me less convinced---on the one hand they are, to a man, very unhappy individuals----on the other hand, so are lots of us who face the day to day struggles of a confusing world. I will on the other hand be the last guy on the block to accept pedophilia regardless of how acceptable it has become. This is because the larger principle of a helpless victim is now in the mix.

I do think there is another, larger principle in question. How to deal with the religious. On this forum it is allowable and frequent that hate for Christianity is expressed. That's probably as it should be, and to be expected because of the manner in which the "Fundamentalists" seem bent on picking a fight (of the most banal and trivial nature). Still, I think the larger reason for the distain comes from a longtime western way of percieving religions living peacably together. We claim to a goal of "pluralism"----that is (or has become) a very patronizing view of religion that accepts as truth that all religions are equally duped, wrong and are to be tolerated only insofar as they understand that what they believe isn't objectively true *wink wink*

The trouble with this world veiw of "pluralism" instead of "tolerance" is that 1.The religious don't believe that they aren't believing objective truth, and 2.Though nobody can empirically prove the veracity of a religion, nobody can empirically prove the contrary either.

The world continues to hold to the pluralistic model however and then is SHOCKED when an incident like 9/11 happens. All religions are equally wrong-headed, and nobody really believes that stuff.

A "tolerance" model would understand that the religious believe what they believe and would be able to determine from those beliefs whether they could or could not share living space with those of an intolerable religion.

I didn't state that well. What I mean is that tolerance can be modified by reason----if one religion threatens the rights of another belief system, its acceptance into a society can be questioned. Pluralism makes allowance for every and anything despite its threat to the common good---------because at its core pluralism cannot make an assertion of one belief's "superiority" over another's.

As to limiting anyone's right to see Harry Potter? put me firmly in the "that's rather silly" camp.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:00 AM

John Hardly, you probably didn't mean it this way, but the way your post is worded looks like you're saying that most people who have a problem with the behavior of some religious 'fundamentalists' do not have any religions themselves.

I think it's pretty safe to say, and I'm guessing that you won't disagree with me, that people who have a problem with the behavior of some religious fundamentalists are as likely as not to be religious in some way or another themselves. Those who are religious (or spiritual) just don't appreciate their particular form of religion (or spirituality) being interfered with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:14 AM

CarolC
You're right. I don't disagree. I will say however that there are some general ways in which the offence is taken----1. It is often caused by the fundamentalist's manner. 2. It is because another's faith in what they say they believe is weak and they feel threatened by the presence of other beliefs (one reason why cults often tend to isolate----their system tends to break down in the presence of more "reasonable" beliefs). People whose faith is tenuous don't really want to participate in the arena of ideas (where they'd have to "prove" their belief system)---they want to be left alone. 3. Certain belief systems may be truly "dangerous" to a society.

Having said all that though, I will also say that I think that "fundamentalist" Christianity is acting so goofy these days for much the same reason--it has become severly weakened by (at least) two major heresies, Gnosticism and Legalism. The heresies have made Christians feel a stronger need to convert everyone out of a sense that their weak faith will be proven as it is strong enough to convert others (misery loves company?).

I'll give it a rest----I'm not writing clearly


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: CharlieA
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:04 AM

I will tolerate anything but intolerance.

Cxxx


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:19 AM

John Hardly said:

"....I think that "fundamentalist" Christianity is acting so goofy these days for much the same reason--it has become severly weakened by (at least) two major heresies, Gnosticism and Legalism. The heresies have made Christians feel a stronger need to convert everyone out of a sense that their weak faith will be proven as it is strong enough to convert others (misery loves company?).

BINGO

John, you may feel that you are having a problem making your points clear, but you could not have said this any better. I find those that are most comfortable and assured with and within their own beliefs to be far less zealotic (is that a word?) in their attitudes.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 11:26 AM

I would add another category to your list, John Hardly...

4. There are people who like the religion or form of spirituality that they practice/believe in and have no desire to change it, but who have a "live and let live" attitude about what others believe and see no reason to try to prove that their belief system is any more true or valid than anyone else's.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:50 PM

One of the greatest problems for a questioning, learning, seeking Christian (which is what I am) is to come up against the inflexibility of the 'I know I'm right' Christian. Another of the great problems is the requirement to treat them with Christian grace and tolerance when, in a most unChristian way, you think they're raving loonies! (I don't mean you, John - I mean your 'pretenders', which I thought you put very well).

And I love Harry Potter - cracking stories of right versus wrong.

- Ian B


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:04 PM

And no sooner have I written that last post than on the BBC news comes the story of the vicar in the north of England who has thrown a yoga class out of his church hall for being spiritually undesirable.

That's what I mean by loonies...!!!

- Ian B


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:39 PM

I was about to pitch in earler with my tale of how my two 15 year old daughters were frightened by a 'Christian' fundementalist chasing them down a busy shpooing street and damning their souls to hell because they wore goth clothes.

Glad I didn't. Thanks John - it is good to see a sensible and balanced view. I realise that the Christian label is just one that these loonies have hijacked for their own ends - like so many other good causes that have been kidnapped by the extreemists.

You have made me realise once again that there is good and bad everywhere. While it is the bad that gets the headlines, the good is a much larger faction and will win out in the end.

It is tarring all members of any faction, be it religious, cultural or racial with the same broad brush that generates the intollerance that creates wars.

Thanks again John.

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:35 PM

I find it is more on how you live your life. I have a friend who is a muslim, he is one of the most "christian" people I know,in that he would help anybody. He has talked about the Prophet Muhammad,sal~Allahu~alaihi~wa~sallam, But apart from giving me a copy of the Holy Qur'an has made no atempt to convert me.
I am honoured to have such a man as my friend.
As to Harry Potter the books are good reading but of course when a film is made the real cash comes from the spin offs so now children are told that they must have the latest toys that in 6 months time will be consigned to the rubbish bin.
Toy companies will find that some toys will become scarse[the lego hogwarts castle is in very short supply] so if you have one sell it on ebay and make a fortune, if you are lucky you can sell the same one several times.
christmas- humbug
dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:58 PM

The Great Hall looked magnificent...enchanted snow was falling, warm and dry, from the ceiling. Dumbledore led them in a few of his favourite carols, Hagrid booming more and more loudly with every goblet of egg-nog he consumed.

(From Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: lamarca
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:42 PM

McGrath, Susan, JohnH and Catspaw, I guess I have kind of muddled thinking about "choice", free will and security in one's faith. It's rather easy for me, from the outside, to dismiss a fundamentalist's attempts to convert others to his or her belief system as an expression of their personal insecurity in their own faith, a fear of making other choices in life. I guess that I, as an agnostic whose own religious beliefs are not well defined, feel less threatened by viewing people as poor, misguided individuals who are trying to deal with their own insecurities by trying to get affirmation that their way is the only right way by imposing their behavior rules on me.

A more threatening view is that fundamentalists, be they "Christian", "Islamic" or "Jewish" (and major segments of all these religions will say that the fundamentalists have lost all touch with the true core of these belief systems) are secure in their beliefs, and feel duty bound because of those beliefs to ensure that theirs is the only "Truth" permitted to be publically expressed.

Unfortunately, such "true believers", be they terrorists who blow up people in the name of Allah, or the assassin who killed Menachim Begin in the name of Zionism, or a "Right-to-Life" terrorist who targets and kills a doctor or a Southern preacher who describes Catholics as "spawn of Satan" in the name of Christ - these people are all sincere and sure in their beliefs, but are easily manipulated by people who are merely using their beliefs and willingness to act on them as a way to personal and political power.

The criticisms of Harry Potter and attempts to ban it by some people in the name of their religion make me worry about my rights to my beliefs, however foggy they may be. I feel threatened in the same way (although not to the same degree) by rabid vegetarians or sports fans, who want society to conform to their world view, and for all of us to change our behavior or help pay for what they deem "right".

I wish that the Bush administration, and those members of our government who support the notion of America as a "Christian" nation, would go down and look at the Jefferson Memorial. Engraved on the walls are the words of one of our founders, who said:
"Almighty God hath created the mind free…All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens…are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion…No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively." Jefferson believed in God, but believed just as strongly that in a civil society, people should have the right to hold their own religious beliefs without coercion by society to support another's.

We get into trouble when we start trying to define the murky line between what behaviors are permitted in the interest of religious freedom, and what are limited by a society's intrinsic moral code. Jefferson may have believed that there is but "one moral code" for both the individual and society, but in a pluralistic, democratic nation, agreement on what that moral code is, without investing it with one particular religious belief, is always going to be difficult. In the USA, the division between a firmly held religious belief and a firmly held political belief isn't cut and dried.

If we look at the attempt to ban a book because it presents offensive viewpoints to a certain religion, we have to hold it up to these tests:
"Does the existance of this book somehow limit the ability of the offended group to practice its beliefs?" No, usually. "Does it create a hostile environment in which those offended find it hard to practice their beliefs?" Well, maybe yes.

This debate seems silly when the book at issue is Harry Potter, but what about "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? I have the painful ability to see a lot of different viewpoints and shadings involved in this issue, all of which have some validity. What I don't have is the wisdom to figure this out, and come up with an answer, or set of answers, that enables the largest number of people to live their lives happily in the practice of their beliefs, without fear of people who don't believe the same way.

BTW - why don't we ever hear about fanatical Buddhist fundamentalists...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: GUEST,traveller
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:57 PM

a href="http://www.sunypress.edu/sunyp/backads/html/barthobu.html">"This examination of Sri Lanka's ethnic and religious minorities links the past with the present through a treatment of Sinhala-Buddhist fundamentalist development in the late nineteenth century and its hegemony in the late twentieth."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part ll
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:59 PM

"This examination of Sri Lanka's ethnic and religious minorities links the past with the present through a treatment of Sinhala-Buddhist fundamentalist development in the late nineteenth century and its hegemony in the late twentieth."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: lamarca
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:12 PM

Oh, well - I guess even Buddhists can be intolerant...thanks, Guest!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:07 PM

Question - When HP leaves Hogwarts will he go to the Unseen University ?

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:34 PM

This thread is really moving to me. Thanks, all, for this discussion.

JohnH says, above: "Here's where I think the Fundamentalist pretenders have it wrong. One of the very defining fundamentals is that God looks on the heart. Behavior, while important, is secondary (a by-product of belief, if you will). The interesting thing about how this should inform one's view of governing other's behaviors------no "fundamentalist" would ever believe that he could save a person's soul (let alone the society or the world) by forcing certain behaviors."

First of all, John, I love the term "Fundamentalist pretenders"; what an accurate description! A fundie-pretender would very likely counter your characterization of behavior as "secondary" with the Biblical quote "Faith without works is dead" in order to justify his "work" of trying to control the behavior of others. He would emphatically agree that no person could "save" another's soul... but I have seen him and others like him comparing – and bragging about – the number of souls each of them has "brought to Christ". And I have seen him and others like him convince themselves that their attempts to govern the behavior of others will somehow bring those others to him to ask him how they might be "saved" like him.

Of course, few if any of the fundie-pretenders consider the number of souls driven away (except to dismiss them as "lost" or as having given themselves to Satan).

Kevin (McGrath of Harlow) says, above: "The issue is what you do when you have made a choice - when are you entitled or duty bound to try to get other people to go along with it, and when are you duty bound to stand back and let other people make the choice." My experience has been that the fundie-pretender feels duty-bound to get other people to go along with his choice not only by "witnessing", or testifying to his faith, but by roundly condemning any other choice (to lead them to water – even if it means to drag them, kicking and screaming), and duty-bound to stand back only when the other people make the choice to see things his way and to seek salvation on his terms (to drink, or to walk away and be dragged back to the trough).

To borrow Susan's (WYSIWYG's) phrase in part 1 of this thread, this is "the picture [the fundie-pretenders] show of themselves, on the outside." On the inside, many of them truly love and care for and want to help their fellow human beings (not all, but many). Unfortunately, those loving people have no clue that what they're doing is far more damaging than helpful, for the simple reason that they've had their behaviors and their way of thinking drummed into them as the "one way" of behaving and thinking. As lamarca said in part 1 of this thread, they're frightened (by the threat of eternal damnation AND by the threat of condemnation by their peers in their church community) of behaving and thinking in any other way. So, for those fundie-pretenders who truly care for the souls of the "unsaved", that fear for themselves extends to fear that others will be damned, which drives them to desperate attempts at rescue. For those fundie-pretenders who consider the "heathen" to be soulless tools of the devil and already headed for hell unless God intervenes, that fear of their own damnation drives them to desperate attempts at removal of the temptation (and even of the temptors) from their midst. They figure God is able to rescue these "Satan-spawn" if he wants to, but they have no interest in helping other than to "witness" from afar (pushing them toward the water and away from themselves).

In both cases, they believe that their behavior is an example of Christlike living, and will quote the Bible to prove it. But whether it is or isn't, it's still not up to the fundie-pretenders to govern anyone else's choice of behavior or thought, anyone else's choice of what to read or where to live or whom to love... but that's not what gets drummed into them from their pulpit.

In my humble opinion, based on personal experience from "the inside" and from removing myself to "the outside".

Sharon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM

I've seen the movie, I just finished the second book and I'm looking forward to the next one. My eleven year old daughter has read all of them and I'm glad she has.

This is fantasy, and very well written fantasy. However, there is a constant clash of good versus evil, and Harry always chooses good (so far). Religion, and I don't care what denomination is supposed to teach us that given the choice, choose the right(eous)path. I think that the characters of Harry and his sidekicks Ron and Hagrid are excellent role models for my children.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:58 PM

There are "fundamentalists" in every faith, including the faith of people who would deny they have any faith.

As he often managed to do, Bob Dylan has a tag that fits:

In a soldier's stance I aimed my hand
Ay the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not thta I'd bevome my enemy
In the instant that I preached.

I agree with John H that it is unfortunate that the term "fundamentalist" gets adopted by, and used as a label for, people who are, through their intolerance and openness to hate and violence, opposed to the fundamental principles of the religion they claim to represent. And I don't just mean Christian fundamentalists here either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 09:10 PM

My daughter and I discuss the differences between Harrys world of witches and the ones here (Pagans, Wiccans, etc.) The fact is, HP's universe is a "Magic instead of Science" world...magic is nothing more than a tool. So far, there have been no references to *any* religion *except* Christianity (through it's holidays).

I still don't see what the hubbub is. The attraction for most kids is a world where you can ride a broomstick, make things float, and become invisible, which doesn't exist here, even for those who call themselves witches in our world.

If they'd only read the blinking things without prejudice, maybe they'd see the underlying messages that exist there...ones that *any* reliigion could use to it's advantage. Good can triumph over evil...evil takes all sorts of forms...and love is the strongest thing anywhere.

But I am a rabid fan, so...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:56 AM

Menachim Begin has died peacefully. However, Yitzhak Rabin fits the example and might be meant.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: lamarca
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 10:21 AM

Oops, Wolfgang - you're right!

I found a fascinating article on fundamentalism and the law at The Indiana Journal of Global Legal Studies here if anyone is interested. It has an excellent and non-judgemental, although lengthy, definition of the concept of religious fundamentalism as one way of coping with the maelstrom of changes in the modern world. It examines three fundamentalist movements: the ultra-Orthodox Jews, or haredim in Israel, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Theravada Buddhist fundamentalists in Sri Lanka mentioned above. In each section, there is an examination of the history and core beliefs of the group and an exploration of how the group interacts with and tries to change civil society around them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: PeteBoom
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 10:42 AM

"When one person's technology is so far advanced beyond another's person technology that it appears to be magic. Then, it is magic." I stole that bit from a fellow I used to do a little gaming with 20+ years ago.

I proposed something once on a Celtic board where some eejit came in wanting to know about becoming a Celtic. Yup, that was his question. "How do I become a Celtic?" We finally figured out that he wanted to work magic(k). Then he came back a couple of months later telling us we were all devil worshippers because we did not try and talk him out of it, and some fellow directed him to some neo-mysticism site or other.

I asked him the same question I asked other folks before and since who were "good Christians" (which by their definition, I am not...) "Is a tool in itself good or evil, os is the use of the tool good or evil? A knife heated to red hot can blind a person or permanently maim them. In an emergency, the same red hot knife can cauterize a wound and save a person's life. If Biblical Saints could work miracles through the power of the Divine, how did they do it? The records are a little vague and were written long after the events. If one channels energy that is around us into a focused place to manipulate or control events, is the ability to channel energy good or evil, or the use to which it is put?"

Pete


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:30 AM

I think a good, valid question in regard to this discussion is: What religion(s) if pared down to their actual "fundamentals" would be a threat to a culture or society.

Some to whom we refer as "fundamentalists" are actually NOT following the fundamentals of their religion-----this is the current claim of many moslems right now, and it is my claim regarding Christianity.

I personally question whether this is right---in other words, though I don't believe the name "fundamentalist" applies accurately to the fundamentalist Christians to whom most of this thread refers, I do think that it is aptly applied to fundamentalist Islam

I think that the true fundamentals of Christianity at the very least would do no harm in society, and at best would be a boon to it. Islam on the other hand, though it started its life as an enlightenment to it culture, has not been so for centuries.

What religions would you really fear for life and limb if their fundamentals dominated your society?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM

Yes the thing that most marks most so-called "fundamentalists" is their "majoring in the minors" as a friend of mine once put it. They take things that are NOT fundamentals (e.g. (for some "Christian fundamentalists") might be how one dresses, or how long one's hair is), and make it a touchstone of a person's devotion to their religion.

I applaud your attempt, John, to rescue the word "fundamentalist" from these people, but fear you will not be able to. The word has picked up a lot of cultural baggage since 1905 or whenever it was that it was coined.

Alex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:56 PM

As a woman who is still in my child-bearing years, I would fear life and limb if anti-abortion Christian fundamentalists dominated my society. Many more women have lost their lives through childbirth and illegal abortions than through legal abortions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:47 AM

Just read this in the Express & Star ( Wolverhampton Express & Star:

Row over band's 'satanic' t-shirt
By Stella Stokes
An up and coming Wolverhampton heavy metal group say they are being unfairly being blamed for the expulsion of an Canadian teenager from school.
The band, Lucys Drowning, told how the 15-year-old was excluded for turning up to school wearing their t-shirt which displays a logo deemed by the local education authority in Winconsin to be satanic.
They say the girl, a member of the group's website fan base, explained in vain that the symbol was in no way cult-related, and that her furious parents are now taking legal action against the school.
The school, Good Hope High, uses a list found on the internet as a guide to what symbols are not acceptable and has also banned the Star of David and the CND sign as they believe it to be mocking the crucifix.
As a result the local council has also barred Lucys Drowning, who have recently played at The Varsity and will headline their first major gig in London in the New Year, from ever performing in the district.
The band, who are all aged 20-24, consists of singer Liam Fisher, who designed the logo, bass guitarist Kurtis Thorne, keyboard player Purity, drummer Richard Hill and guitarist Barry Defect.
Dee Spencer, of Medusa Management which represents the band, said she can't understand the controversy surrounding the design, which is V-shaped and incorporates a circle.
She added: "The band logo is in no way satanic related and does not represent any kind of alternative cult religion.
"The band has been in touch with the school to express their disgust that symbols such as the Star of David and the CND sign are also condemned.''

BTW, the CND symbol is derived from the semaphore signals for the letters N and D, as formerly used by that crypto-Satanic organisation, the Boy Scout movement.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:52 AM

And you can see the logo here. Well, I know what it remnds me of, but I've got "O" level biology.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

Amazing...

(A sheep's head isn't it, Steve? *smile*)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:36 PM

Just noticed today that my ex-employers (Hewlett-Packard) have jumped on the bandwagon. Now then - how cheap is that shot? HP I ask you? I think I'll start a series of books about a teenage Wizard called Ian Bartholemew Martin. Do you think I'll get any sponsors???

I have also just finished the last book. I loved the way JK Rowling has used very sensationalist press that have vilified her works in certain quarters to get a good laugh. Think about Rita Skeeter reporting for the Mid West Christian Gazette (Apologies if there really is one!). Set me off giggling anyway.

Ah well. Small things, small minds and all that;-)

Luv and peas to all

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Hollowfox
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:08 AM

John Hardly, your words are as good as any and better than most on this subject. Ah, names and labels...I have friends and relatives that I love and respect for themselves and their personal qualities. They are honest, honorable and I'd trust them with my life and sanity. they could also be labeled variously as anarchists, bikers, Primitive Baptists, Republicans, witches, etc. As one of these friends put it, "We've accepted Christ into our hearts and been born again, but we aren't assholes about it."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Nigel.Parsons
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM

Pete Boom: The quote from your gaming friend appears to be a misquote from Arthur C Clarke. "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." As a major SF writer, he knew what he meant. See how often the various Star Trek casts are mistaken for gods etc., by primitive races.

Of course, with books such as Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, The Discworld series, Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea novels etc., maybe we need a corollary: "Any sufficiently codified Magic system is indistinguishable from Science"

Nigel parsons


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 05:19 PM

So far as I have seen HP Sauce has managed to avoid getting involved in all this. Rather surprising really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Grab
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 05:11 PM

Nigel and Pete Boom, there's a corollary to Clarke's Law (by whom, I can' remember), which says "Any science indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced." In other words, if you need to know the details of how every part of your car works in order to drive it, the car ain't designed right! Some software manufacturers could take note of this...

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: twister
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:52 PM

I don't know about all this fundlimentist stuff and most of what you're talking about, but I do know that the Harry potter books are wonderful stories about friendship, love, kindness, and believing in yourself. If that's not Christian, that frankly I don't want to know what is. -Twist


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 03:13 AM

Graham, the corollary to Clarke's Law is quoted in Pratchett's "Science of Discworld", so he's one step ahead of us. (Strong;y recommended reading for everyone except fundamentalists, creationists, phillistines, etc.)

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 05:21 AM

... and the message from C S Lewis's "Narnia" stories is that God is on the side of the big battallions. And as for Edgar Rice Burroughs, even I think he should have been locked up!

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:51 AM

"the message from C S Lewis's "Narnia" stories is that God is on the side of the big battallions."

I'd say at a guess you never got round to reading the last book in the series "The Last Battle", if you think that, Steve. The big battallions win the day all right, but they aren't the good guys. Or the God guys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Troll
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:04 AM

There exist in this world of ours, people who must have a Satan to contend against or their lives mean nothing to them. At the present time, Harry Potter is the target.
In another couple of weeks, Lord of the Rings will take center stage.
It doesn't matter what explainations you present in defense of either of these works; in fact, the more the better. Your explainations simply show how pervasive and tricky Satan really is and how much harder the saved must work to counter his influence.
So keep up the good work. You are furnishing employment for a lot of otherwise out-of-work true believers.
See? Something good DID come out of Harry Potter!

troll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: GUEST,emily
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 04:31 PM

On the topic of Harry Potter not being about any particular religion, I totally agree. I am a witch, and yes, I use magic(k) and other non-mainstream arts and sciences, but these are simply a means of living -- tools. Sometimes we use them to communicate with our subconscience, or other spirits. This "magick" often does play a role in our connection with our religion, but is not neccesarily "fundamental" to pagan belief. Likewise, paganism, "new age", Wicca, Druidism, Satanism, etc... are not fundamental to magic.

Rowling doesn't ever specify the religion of either "muggles" or witches & wizards (as far as I know from what I've read & seen). I think the opposition (which was there before the movie was even announced), is mostly caused by people who fear the acceptance of magic as good or secular in our mostly Abrahamic society. I think this is the root of many people's fear of my faith, as well. The fear is not of our different belief system, but that we presume to study and work with powers and "technologies" that are usually reserved for very holy people, saints, or gods.

Yes, this may all transfer to the Lord of the Rings when it comes out, and indeed, there are people of every faith (witches, too!) who will look for a scandal or proof of Satan's presence in anything, but we can't be quiet for fear of giving them more fodder.

Despite its non-religious story-line, Harry Potter has done for pagan religions what years of our silent acceptance & secret magic-working for peace has not achieved: it has brought into the mainstream (worldwide!) media the notion of magic as a secular, innocent, and useful tool, which, like a knife (thank you, Pete) can be a saviour or a killer. Once more people recognize that, it will be like the harnessing of fire: more people will learn to use this valuable tool, and it will enhance ALL of our lives in ways we cannot yet imagine.

Of course in the book it is still fantasy. But it's a beautiful fantasy, and can open our minds and inspire us to a world most people ignore.

thanks for listening. This is my first time posting at Mudcat, so I hope I haven't broken any code of conduct with my post. --Emily


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 07:13 PM

But when it comes to dealing plausibly with magic, or imagining how a school for magicians might be, Ursula Leguin's Wizard of Earthsea is a much more thoughtful and far better written book. That's not to knock JK Rowling's enjoyable stuff, but it's not in the same league.

Incidentally, I see there's a fifth Earthsea book out - here is an extract


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:44 PM

Thanks for that link, Kevin - I didn't know that there was a new Earthsea book - I'm off to the bookshop tomorrow!

Penny


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: GUEST,Amy Sue
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:54 PM

I am a Christian. This book is a fairy story like Hansel & Gretel or The Swan Princess. I don't see where there is any connection. Do you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:35 PM

Kevin (McGrath): Wow, I've been away from the science fiction/fantasy genre too long; I didn't know there was a fourth Earthsea book!!! Methinks I have some catching up to do! Thanks for the nudge.

To "GUEST, emily": Welcome, welcome, welcome! Relax, you've broken no code of conduct; quite the opposite, in fact. What an intelligent post! I'm especially impressed by your statement: "I think the opposition (which was there before the movie was even announced), is mostly caused by people who fear the acceptance of magic as good or secular in our mostly Abrahamic society. I think this is the root of many people's fear of my faith, as well. The fear is not of our different belief system, but that we presume to study and work with powers and 'technologies' that are usually reserved for very holy people, saints, or gods." Yes, yes, I agree wholeheartedly!

I hope you'll return and post again, many times, and decide to join us as a member. Enjoy the Mudcat!

Sharon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Harry Potter: Good or Bad Witch part II
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:48 PM

SharonA: For my money, I'd advise you to skip the fourth Earthsea book. It's not in the same spirit or tempo as the first 3 books, and rather unnecessarily complicates the whole basis of the world she created so brilliantly in those books. I was bitterly disappointed and found myself wishing I hadn't read it.

Alex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 5 December 10:53 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.