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BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue

Mudshark1 26 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM
kendall 26 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM
Rory B 26 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 26 Oct 01 - 08:07 PM
Rory B 26 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Mid Life Crisis 26 Oct 01 - 09:02 PM
marty D 26 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM
Uncle Jaque 26 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM
Mark Cohen 26 Oct 01 - 11:29 PM
Art Thieme 26 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM
Janie 27 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM
DougR 27 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,Guest LostinAmerica 27 Oct 01 - 12:25 AM
kendall 27 Oct 01 - 10:34 AM
Dharmabum 27 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM
Stev 27 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM
Little Neophyte 28 Oct 01 - 12:04 AM
Lyrical Lady 28 Oct 01 - 12:17 AM
kendall 28 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,yeah, me too 28 Oct 01 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,LostinAmerica 28 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM
Little Neophyte 28 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM
Tom French 28 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM
LR Mole 29 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM
CarolC 29 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM
kendall 29 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Fiver 30 Oct 01 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,CarolC (unable to set my cookie) 30 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Fiver 30 Oct 01 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,CarolC (without cookie) 30 Oct 01 - 09:11 PM
DougR 30 Oct 01 - 09:13 PM
kendall 30 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,CarolC (no cookies) 30 Oct 01 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Fiver 31 Oct 01 - 11:36 AM
DougR 31 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM
kendall 31 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM
kendall 31 Oct 01 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,GUEST 01 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM
kendall 01 Nov 01 - 09:10 AM
Jeri 01 Nov 01 - 09:37 AM
balladeer 01 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Fiver 01 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM
DougR 01 Nov 01 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Fiver 01 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,GUEST 02 Nov 01 - 11:15 AM
Trevor 02 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM
Noreen 02 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Fiver 02 Nov 01 - 01:46 PM
Mudshark1 02 Nov 01 - 05:36 PM
CarolC 02 Nov 01 - 05:47 PM
Mudshark1 02 Nov 01 - 05:50 PM
Mudshark1 02 Nov 01 - 06:05 PM
kendall 02 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM
CarolC 02 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Fiver 02 Nov 01 - 08:00 PM
kendall 02 Nov 01 - 10:43 PM
Shall 02 Nov 01 - 11:58 PM
Mudshark1 03 Nov 01 - 12:27 AM
Mudshark1 03 Nov 01 - 12:44 AM
kendall 03 Nov 01 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,GUEST 03 Nov 01 - 07:56 AM
DougR 03 Nov 01 - 01:55 PM
kendall 03 Nov 01 - 08:40 PM
Mudshark1 04 Nov 01 - 02:38 AM
kendall 04 Nov 01 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Anne 04 Nov 01 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Sledge 05 Nov 01 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Shallow woman 05 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM
Mudshark1 05 Nov 01 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,Fiver 06 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM
wendall2 06 Nov 01 - 02:14 PM
kendall 06 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM
Little Neophyte 06 Nov 01 - 05:03 PM
kendall 06 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM
Mudshark1 06 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Fiver 06 Nov 01 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,shallow woman 06 Nov 01 - 07:37 PM
CarolC 06 Nov 01 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Jane Doe 06 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM
kendall 06 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Shallow woman 06 Nov 01 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,Fiver 06 Nov 01 - 08:34 PM
wendall2 06 Nov 01 - 08:49 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 01 - 11:30 PM
Trevor 07 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM
kendall 07 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM
Mudshark1 07 Nov 01 - 07:58 PM
Max 07 Nov 01 - 09:55 PM
Susan from California 07 Nov 01 - 10:48 PM
GUEST 08 Nov 01 - 12:49 AM
kendall 08 Nov 01 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Fiver 08 Nov 01 - 05:50 PM
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Subject: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM

If you are like me,I hope to communicate with you.As musicians we are extremely sensitive and found my wife of three years not the same woman I married!I probably will be bailing out soon because I have tried everything to bring life into the marriage, I'm one who is extremely affectioate and loving where my wife could care less.The one thing we can't do is let the marriage affect our music. I am a music teacher who is dedicated to my profession . Also I am a performer as well.I am 49 years old,make decent buckaroos and really think I would need to meet someone who carries those same vibes artists carry. She hasn't got a clue.She even told me to split and that her girls have the edge over me.If anyone out there wants to talk to me or even vent feel free.. All The Best,Mudshark


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM

Just know you are not alone. It happenes to the worst of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Rory B
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

oh gosh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:07 PM

If you're trolling for chicks, Mudshark, you might want to think about changing your screen name. Some ladies might find it a bit intimidating. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Rory B
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM

Double gosh!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Mid Life Crisis
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:02 PM

I can empathize.
I'm going through my own personal rut and have been dealing with it for about 5 years now. Male mid life crisis? I dunno. Maybe paritially. Seems like as soon as I turned 40 my body started sending me little signals of various things that no doubt will start to really plague me later on in life and one of which will ultimately kill me. The libido is shot. I see a nice looking woman and in one half of me brain I think, yeah I'd like to jump her bones, and with the other half think, why bother? too much hassle and then she'll want a relationship. I've been feeling like I'm dead inside for a long time. The only thing that keeps me going is playing music. I have many male friends of a similar age to me, who woke up one day and said life's too short, I'm miserable, my marriage sucks, and I'm tired of feeling dead inside. So they walked. They support their families and have new younger girlfriends. Their libidos are better than ever and they feel alive again on the inside and the outside and they don't regret the decision. I personally think it takes a very high degree of total selfishness (self preservation?) to walk (especially when there are children involved) and a lot of balls as well. But I can understand the reasons for doing it. In most of their cases the spark and the love was gone from the marriage. They were taken completely for granted, or made to feel inadequate, unloved, miserable and useless. I cannot bring myself to leave. I figure either way I'm fucked. If I stay in the marriage, I remain dead inside where my mood fluctuates between deep depression to a feeling of powerlessness. You reach a point where you become joyless and nothing gives you any satisfaction including personal achievements, your children, whatever. (Clinical depression symptoms?) And if I leave the marriage, I can never have a moments peace of mind in the solitude of a new apartment, because I'd be plagued with feelings of guilt for having walked out on my family. I'd be made to feel like an outcast by my inlaws, wife and children, and utterly humiliated. I don't wanna see a shrink because I like clinging to my own self pity. There's a certain morose comfort in it that I cannot describe that feels comfortable, familiar and reassuring in a very demented and dark way.

I think if you can walk Mudshark1 and do it with peace of mind, and still look after your obligations to your wife and family, and in the long run be happier and feel it was the right thing to do, more power to you. Me? I'm almost tempted to commit a crime that would give me a sentence of 10 years of solitary confinement just for the private space and being left the fuck alone and devoid of all responsiblity. But I won't because then I'd be even more depressed about causing harm to some innocent victim. This male mid life crisis thing just sucks. The only time I feel productive is when I change the strings on a guitar.

Thanks for allowing the rant. I've wanted to get this off my chest for a long time, and the cloak of anonymity afforded by not using my member name, has made it possible. For that I am grateful as there is no one I am comfortable discussing this with in my real 3D life. Hopefully this fog will eventually lift, and the sun will shine again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: marty D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

I've been there as probably a lot of us have. For Gawd's sake don't stay in a bad marriage. We only live once, and if you stick it out another year, that's one less year you have to find that special someone who will really value you. Same for your partner. Whatever you do, don't use the kids as an excuse for staying either. It's not great for them, but they'll know quite a few other kids in the same boat. There's no shame in divorce anymore, because although we may not be smarter than our 'stick it out til the bitter end' parents, modern society has made us far more complex. To find a partner who plays your music is divine.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM

Guest MLC; methinks a lot of us here know all too well that of which you speak.

Being in no position to credably advise, allow me to at least share this reflection;

I rather wish that you were not so reluctant to seek competent clinical evaluation and treatment; I'm no big fan of "Psychotherapy", and can't say that "Counselling" has done us much good... but there are a number of very effective medications out there that can (and for a lot of people do) make a really significant difference. And watch out for your health; depression can raise hell with the immune system, and disrupt sleep cycles to the point that functioning on the job is compromised. Depending on what you do, this can lead not only to unemployment but can be a major safety issue to self, co-workers, and sometimes even innocent bystanders.

It seems that your music is about the only thread, currently, that keeps you connected to life, such as it is. We can relate.

Should you ever get the feeling that you are the only poor shmuck who's ever been flushed down this hole, let me (and I think I'd be safe in assuming "us" here) assure you;

You ain't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:29 PM

MLC, you asked: "clinical depression symptoms?" Absolutely, and good for you for recognizing it. As Uncle Jacques indicated above, much of this is due to plain old chemistry--changes in neurotransmitter levels in the brain--and can be helped with chemistry as well. If you don't want to see a psychiatrist or psychologist, then go to a COMPETENT family doctor or internist. Check with your county medical society or local hospital if you don't know one. But go.

Caution: if you find yourself having thoughts about ending your life, don't wait for a doctor's appointment, but look in the phone book NOW for the number of your local crisis line, and call. Now. Even if you think it's embarrassing or foolish. Or at least call a friend you trust. Depression can be a fatal disease, and it's treatable.

Don't even try to figure out what to do about your marriage until you get yourself back in working order. Even if you are absolutely certain you're not depressed, and you don't need to see a doctor...give yourself the benefit of the doubt and go anyway. People who are in the middle of a state like this don't always have the best judgement about their own situation. The fact that you posted this message is a good sign that you don't like where you are and want to make it better--stay with that.

This happens to lots of people, and there are many people out there who can help. Send me a personal message if you have more questions or just want to talk more.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM

There was once an old timey fiddler and his wife who, at age 98, went before the judge to get a divorce. The judge asked them why, at this late date, they were splitting up!? The couple told him, "Once we were very much in love. But those feelings left us long ago. We stayed together for the sake of the kids, but now that they're all dead..."

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM

MLC,

I strongly second Mark's advice---all of it.

Please take care of yourself.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM

Anybody have, or know anyone who has, a perfect marriage?

I was married 49 years, and though I never knew anyone else I'd like to be married to, ours was not prefect.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Guest LostinAmerica
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:25 AM

Mudshark1 and GuestMLC, no you're not alone. I'm one of those guys keeping it together for the sake of my 7-year-old son. The wife and I stopped having sex shortly after our son's arrival. Things were wrong for a long time before that. My wife has for a long time shown nothing but contempt for me. I once summed up our problems as this: She likes nothing about me and the only thing I dislike about her is the fact that she doesn't like me. We both do well in all other aspects of our lives. We have friends (she has hers and I have mine), we are each well-liked at our jobs. We like each other's families. We just don't like each other. I once heard marriage called "the minimum of privacy and the maximum of loneliness." That pretty much sums it up. I'm glad I had some good relationships years ago. That way I know what can be. I don't drink to excess, don't do drugs, don't gamble, don't have affairs. My son is my foremost priority. Why did we marry? We each thought the other would "change." I can't bear to leave my son, and I can't stand to put him through the whole divorce/custody thing. I'm not looking for an answer. There is none. Just wanted to let you know there are others "out there."


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:34 AM

Ask yourself this question. What is the payoff here? What am I getting that I cant do without. There must be something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Dharmabum
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

Marriage is like a three ring circus,
You have your engagement ring,
You have your wedding ring,
And then you have your SUFFER RING!

Try to laugh once in a while. It helped me through a rough marriage & it's ultimate demise.

DB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

When my wife and I were married, at age thirty-three, she asked if I'd love her forever.

"Well, 'forever' is a long time, and personalities change. Tell you what: I'll put you on probation. You've got seventy years to prove yourself; if you're still okay at the end of that time, I'll keep you forever; if not, out you go!"

I have to say, she'd been doing so well for the last thirty-seven years that I recently canceled the probation and gave her that "forever" commitment. Big of me, eh?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Stev
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM

Try to maintain some perspective boys. Go help someone in need and don't forget to pray. This is what I've learned working 20 years in the ER. Keep pickin, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:04 AM

What boggles my mind is this....
If you have a bad marriage and you decide it is best not to leave, why don't you go for marriage counseling?
From my experience (it appears) that some men are reluctant to go for marriage counseling. Why? I don't get it. You decide to stay in a miserable marriage yet decide not to work on making it a better marriage. Doesn't make much sense to me. This is your life.

Little Neo who is puzzled


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:17 AM

Yes Little Neophyte ... you are quite correct in your observations ... there are some men who would risk losing all that they have rather than go to counselling ... they would rather make the same mistakes with someone new, rather than do the nessessary work to save a marriage. Please note ... I said "some" men ... and 'some' women too, I might add.

LL


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM

Why? because it is easier to lay blame than to work on the problem. I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars trying to fix a marriage that just wasn't meant to be.

Some years ago, a game warden found a car off the road, down over a steep bank. Inside was a skeleton, and without opening the door, he knew it was a man. Poor bastard just would not ask directions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,yeah, me too
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 07:27 PM

25 year marriage.
Took me almost 20 of 'em to figure out she was (probably clinically) frigid. Like some women must assume, she thought I'd be satisfied with her willingness to "service me". Yeah, that's enjoyable. You lay there and take it babe, while I do the most embarrassing act a human can do (at least when you're the only one lost in the rapture of it).

All the unspoken agreements arrived at to keep peace. They finally stack one on top of the other until they finally break the plane of rational behavior and neither of you even notices anymore.

And yes, I'll continue to live with it and wait for a miracle.

I don't want a counsellor---I want an arbitrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,LostinAmerica
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

tried for years to get her to a marriage counselor...she always said she didn't want some "stranger" to know our business...now, like guestY,M,T, I don't want a counselor 'cause I don't want to fix it...just want to hang on 'til I can get out without losing my son...


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM

Well.......I must admit I sure rather be single than in a relationship wishing I was.

Miss Bonnie who does understand. I really do feel for you guys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Tom French
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM

My former wife walked at 45. To a certain degree, she was pissed that I was happy. It was tough on me, but it taught me an important point. Being happy is something you have within you. It doesn't depend on a spouse. Whatever you are you take with you into the next relationship or non-relationship. I overcame much for 23 years, but I learned that you really can't help them with love or anything else that they might need. If they can't find it themselves, no one is going to fulfill them. If you're happy, you really have the strength to do what is best for the family; maybe you'll hit 23 years too. I recall Stan Rogers song "45 Years"; that person made it 23 years too. Used to sing it to try and understand what was happening to me. Since the divorce I have even become good friends with my x for the sake of our two kids and also because I really don't have enough of what it takes to hold a grudge and ruin myself with grudging. I am very happily remarried, but then I never stopped being happy, once I made it through the break-up. My x continues about the same, still looking for happiness. If you have kids, you'll find that they are more important than yourself. I really think both spouses, if they are still sane should knock themselves out to keep the family together; it is worth any amount of effort.
Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: LR Mole
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM

I think, myself, that EVERYBODY'S more important than I am. I just try to stay out of the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Pobrecito, Mole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Mole, get a copy of the Anneagram and look up number 9.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 01:36 PM

I have been married five times, and I have learned that marriage is a great institution, for some people. Doesn't usually work out for musicians, though. for one thing, music takes a lot of the energy and attention that most people put in a relationship, and musicians and performers need more attention than one person can give, any way. When it comes down to it, the musician puts the music first-which is bad on the relationship, and if they can't put the music first, they get bitter, which is worse on the relationship.

Another thing is that with a piece of music, you can always work problems out, but with relationships, you don't have that kind of control, and with music, once it is worked out, it is always good--

To a degree, I feel bad about the bad marriages--because at the beginning of each one, I am sure that I put a lot of energy into the relationship that I put into the music toward the end. I am sure that, at the end, each one felt like I was not the person that they married. On the other hand, people, women especially, project a lot of stuff onto performers-when the person is turns out to be just a person, they are disappointed-

Some people are best when they are alone--the thing is that you don't learn that about yourself til twenty or so years after the time you are old enough to get married--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,CarolC (unable to set my cookie)
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM

On the other hand, people, women especially, project a lot of stuff onto performers-when the person is turns out to be just a person, they are disappointed

--GUEST,Fiver

Men do it as often as women. It's something that a lot of people of both genders do, and not just to performers. A lot of people look to others to provide something that is missing within themselves. Sometimes they project their needs onto larger-than-life figures, and sometimes they project them onto people they meet in their daily lives.

It starts out with the person in question being put up on a pedestal, which can be kind of nice in the beginning. But it's hard to be human up on a pedestal. And when one's humanity shows, one gets knocked down off of the pedestal, which isn't much fun, and leads to a lot of bad feelings on both sides.

I guess the answer, and not an easy thing to do, is what was expressed by Tom French up above. Peope have to be able to find happiness within themselves. If we look to others to provide us with our happiness, we will ultimately be disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 08:39 PM

Playing music makes me happy, it always has--I like good food, too, and have a passing fondness for a bit of the bubbly from time to time--I enjoy them company of people who are enjoying themselves, but so many people are so obsessed with their own "issues" these days, that opportunities are few--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,CarolC (without cookie)
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 09:11 PM

I forgot to mention the flip side of the equation in my last post...

It's really easy for some of us to fall into the trap of needing to be the source of someone else's happiness. Which may make us feel good for a while, but it's a hell of a responsibility, and it creates unrealistic expectations that eventually cause a lot of bad feelings for both people.

It's a complicated little dance sometimes, this business of being human.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 09:13 PM

GUEST, yeah, me to" "While I do the most embarrassing act a human can do." And that would be?

I can't imagine what kind of act of love one person might do to another that would be embarrassing.

I still believe that anyone that expects to have a perfect marriage, or a perfect relationship is going to be disappointed. It takes two to tango, and the one that is unhappy should ask him/herself, is it conceivable that I, myself, am not the perfect partner, and I might be the key to making this relationship work? Sign me old fashioned, I guess, but when one enters a serious relationship, one has to assume certain obligations, and one of them is committing to preserving the relationship. If you are satisfied that you have done everything YOU can do to make it work, and it still doesn't, then get out of it.

One never realizes until it is gone, I think, how much is lost when even a relatively good relationship is over. My thinking anyway.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM

Carol C you are wise beyond your years. Doug, for once I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,CarolC (no cookies)
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 09:52 PM

Either that, or I've been around the block a few times. (*BG*)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 11:36 AM

I think CarolC must be fairly special, since she managed to get Kendall and DougR to agree on something--and she can play the accordion, too--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

I'm in shock! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM

I'm on life support! Seriously, Doug and I have agreed on other things, he said Dick Armey is an ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 08:04 PM

I've been down the road a few times too Carol C, and, I would not hesitate to go again. I'd rather feel pain than to feel nothing at all. Old Maine proverb, "You have to get out on the limb, that's where the fruit is."


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

Have an affair, have several affairs But make sure the person you have the affair with is well and truly tied to their SO and understands your reasons This way you can enjoy yourself without risk and without hurting your partner Its worked for me for 16 years, my husband doesn't know. Music is a great way to hide an affair as you tend to go out a lot and there are no questions asked. Just be careful to choose the right people and I believe it helps you to tolerate family problems and the mundane chores of family life. Most important of all it makes you a happier person to live with


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:10 AM

Guest Guest, Thank God I'm not married to you! How do you sleep nights?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:37 AM

From the outside looking in...

I was once a young man's supervisor. He sat with me in the office one day and poured his heart out. Seemed he'd had one of those one-night affairs while his wife had been out of town, and he felt horrible about it. He asked what he should do. He talked, cried, talked some more, and finally answered his own question. He could not NOT tell her, To hell with the possibility she might throw him out of the house - he couldn't stand the thought of a lie remaining between them. She got very, VERY pissed off, but they were still together 15 years later, and still in love.

They had known each other since childhood, and were best friends before they were married. I think the pedestal, the blindness of being in love, gets in the way, and if you don't start out as friends, or find a way to become friends after the honeymoon phase wears off, you're in trouble. I think sometimes people come out of that phase, and find they don't like the person they married very much.

I never found a guy I could love both romantically and as a friend - it's always been one or the other. I don't think it's a very easy thing to do, but the combination is what makes marriages that last, and are happy. There are two whole and separate people, who trust one another and choose to share their lives. Wish we could all find that sort of love.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: balladeer
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM

Wow! So much sorrow on this thread. The hardest thing about being married,I find,is to avoid blaming my partner for the things that make me unhappy. He lives here, it must be his fault. If I lived alone, I would be forced to first look inside myself for the roots of my turmoil and despair, but because he stands so close to me, it is just so much easier to shine the spotlight on his inadequacies rather than my own. God bless, everyone! Balladeer


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM

A marriage is a lot like playing music--it forces you to confront your weakesses and limitations on a moment to moment basis--if you confront your own weakness and deal with them, you can make it work, but only if your partner is doing the same thing--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:08 AM

I genuinely fear for my mental health. I agree, AGAIN, with Kendall.

GUEST GUEST, at some point I have to believe that your extramarital relationship is going to affect your married life. It's amazing after fourteen years that it hasn't already. A one-night stand like the one Jeri describes is one thing, but a fourteen year relationship with the same person is another. Just having to "cover up" the other relationship is a terrible burden, I would think. And it is difficult for me to believe that your spouse doesn't know, or suspect something by now.

I think before one takes Guest Guest's advice he or she should ask themselves, 'If I lose my marriage over this other relationship, will it be worth it?' Another question: 'How would I feel if I found out that my spouse is having an affair with someone?'

Sorry if I sound preachy, but I'm one who really believes in trying to make a marriage work, and I think it takes two to do that. If it simply can't work ...get out of it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM

I missed your post before, GUEST GUEST, but I wonder if you ever thought about why your husband isn't responding to the fact that you have been carrying on for all these years? Don't kid yourself, on some level, he does know--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:15 AM

Don't get me wrong guys. I am best of friends with my husband. It's just the mundane domestic side that gets you down. He's not interested much in me as a woman and never really has been. We got hitched because we have a great friendship..... so maybe he does have an idea but chooses not to worry about it. It's not affecting our friendship and it is wonderful to have someone to be romantic with. Every time we meet it is like starting over. My lover is in a similar situation. Neither of us would wish to leave our homes and realise that if we did we would probably just end up in another stagnant marriage. An affair isn't a marriage substitute it's an addition!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Trevor
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM

I've always thought that one tolerates a situation because it isn't intolerable. When it is, you do something about it. So one needs to figure out where, on the continuum of ecstacy - total, complete and absolute misery one is situated 'cos that can at least tell you how prepared one should be for the inevitable aggro that comes with the ending of a relationship, no matter how horrible it has become.

The other thing that has become apparent to me (two divorces and a couple of, what I considered to be important, relationships) is that if a relationship is based on need, rather than want, ('how am I going to survive without a partner/my kids around me/security' and so on) then it is flawed. Get away from being reliant on other people for your happiness and explore your own resources - that means that you can take full responsibility for your own misery and stick with it if you like the attention it brings. Or, of course, make some happiness for yourself.

Amazing what you resources you'll find if you start having a real good look inside yourself - and you'll realise what a waste of breath your excuses to yourself have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM

Wise words, Trevor my friend- you just summed up my life in two and a half paragraphs...

Noreen


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:46 PM

Don't understand why you would stay married to someone who isn't interested in you as a woman, when you obviously need someone to be interested in you as a woman. As to being the best of friends, friends don't need to keep secrets from one another. As it stands, you don't know how your husband feels about this, and don't seem to care--you get what you want--You said that you " would probably just end up in another stagnant marriage." There is only one person to blame if that happens, and that is yourself--Why are you married, why did you marry, why even think about marriage, if you are unwilling to make and keep the committments?

I have been around the block a few times, and seen a few like you on the trip--sooner or later, the reckoning comes, and it generally is pretty unpleasant--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 05:36 PM

Hey,Guest mlc and Lost in America, Thanks for your thoughts. I bet there are many out there that don'y have the balls to admit what we all are saying.We all got tricked by false promises by our spouses. It isn,t right because I know I'm real and giving. I would die for the right woman who could just be who they say they are and don't lie about it years later with kids as their sheild. As for all the woman out there who think I am women surfing...your full of it big time! You missed the whole point and are shallow as to not understand what I was talking about.We have heavy crosses to bear with our wives who took advantage of us and the courts are to fault by not listening and giving us justice that we deserve in the divorce courts.If we hung on to our marriage for our kids we made a huge sacrifice.Most of the bad marriages have women hanging on to the sheild of guilt that they have bringing the kids into the picture.I hope you guys find happiness somehow through your music. But you deserve a woman who can work with you instead of against you. You desrve better and don't blame you if you find it.We are getting too old for this crap.Keep in touch guys. And by the way, my nickname was mudshark from the Frank Zappa days.I'm not trying to intimidate anyone.Please don'nt get on my name I get on yoursif you like!Lighten up for God Sakes


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 05:47 PM

Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions, Mudshark1. Your original post to this thread and a similar post to another thread read a little like a bio in a personals ad. So they come across to some of us like someone who might be cruising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 05:50 PM

Hey Guest,Guest,talk to me. I'm thinking about it.I've been through the counseling thing and found the therapists to be more hung up than I am . They tend to experiment,then create stuff that isn,t real.Meanwhile I lay awake and fantasize about how great it would be to find a woman on thwe same page.Talk to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:05 PM

HiCarol, That's O.k.,Im just frustrated as hell.Maybe I was a bit general anyways.I am a good person who has to find happiness somehow. I probably will never have an affair when push comes to shove.I'm just frightened by my age(49) and don't want to make any MORE mistakes. I just wish I could have a life where I am happy and have a soulmate who is honest and willing to be apart of me. That's all. And it is getting late in life for me to act like I'm 30 with many years to go. By the way, I'm a huge Roger Mcguinn fan. I play his music a lot, have a 12 string Rickenbacker signed by him.Also a huge beachboy fan. Check out Surf's Up! or Long Promised Road! Those songs really pick me up when I'm down. Kendall...What is a Anneagram no. 9. Sounds like a colonoscopy!!!!Honest to God Kendall... Your alright!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:38 PM

The Anneagram is a study of basic personalities. It was developed by the Sufis 2000 years ago. It can be found in any bookstore. I'm alright? tell it to my ex wife!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM

Well, good luck with it, Mudshark1.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:00 PM

Mudshark, I wanna hear your single with the bullet--Seriously, I re-read your initial post--If she told you to split--it may be that she doesn't want what you have to give--personally, any woman that would want to be with you just to get close to that McGuinn Rickenbacker twelve, but I guess I am not the most tuned in to what women need. How old are her daughters? It could be that she went looking for a man purely for someone to support the kids. Not cool to say that it happens, but it does.

I worked with a divorced woman who had two teenage daughters(her first husband had been a musician) and she joined an exlusive health club in an expensive suburb, to meet someone who could support her and her kids--she drove 40 minutes everyday, worked out in full make-up, and sure enough, she met a guy with money. She told everybody, but him, that it was just for the money, too. He's still got a lot of money, so the marriage is solid as a rock.

Meanwhile, Kendall, there were no Sufis 2000 years ago, they are Islamic mystics!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:43 PM

So, I'm off a few years, 400 or so, the main point here is the contents of the book, The Anneagram.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Shall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:58 PM

A friend shared a very interesting true story about a couple he knows that live close to New York City. On September 11, the husband departed for work, as usual, to his office located in the World Trade Center. She loaded the kids into the car and drove them to school. When she got back home, she turned on the TV. We all know what happen that morning. She was stunned, frantic, calling everyone she knew, worried sick about her dear husband. She knew from the TV, if he was in his office, that he was most likely dead. She stayed near the phone waiting for some word. At three o'clock the phone rang. She picked up the phone and her husband said "Hi honey, how's it going." She was so happy to hear his voice, and responded "Where are you? Are you okay? I have been worried sick about you". He replied, "I have been at the office working all day". Truth of the matter,he never made it to work that day. He was with another woman. The affair saved his life. Now the question, will his marriage survive. Too soon to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 12:27 AM

Hi Guest Fiver and Kendall, THanks for the input!Kendal,what is the exact name and author of the book?Sounds interesting. You have a lot of cool insights to things. Philosophies and metaphors.Thanks it really helped me. As a matter of fact I want to thank all that responded to me and gave me ideas.I hope I can help you someday.Are all of you musicians?I teach music in a public school and play music professionally.I write as well.I mention Roger Mcguinn to be my favorite but I also play a lot of jazz and blues. Kind of like Larry Carlton.Yet I love it all! Guest Fiver you broke the code with the Zappa thing!I can't believe someone out there got the Mudshark thing.(Mothers Of Invention Live At THe Fillmore 71)I'll be damned!Anyway you hit it on the head about supporting her kids.One is 15, the other 17. Both need an exorcist. I tried my hardest to be nice to the these last few years. My wife promised she would pave the way for me and command respect from them.She didn't follow through and as a result we have a power struggle in the house. I swear to God I'm living in hell.This is my second marriage and as a tip for those who get divoced,,,,TAKE YOUR TIME.DON'T RUSH! Ant this advice is for everyone male and female!I jumped trhe gun and didn't look at things from a third person perspective.I'm doing alright though. I'm just not living my life to the fullest.I still have a hot libido but try doing it with an iceberg! (how's that Kendal?)I am practicing not being victimized and she doesn't like it! She just assumes that her kids can get away with being terrorists in the marriage! Enough of this!Anybody out there at anytime needs to talk,I'm here and willin'Take care you guys.Mudshark.....sh sh sh sh sh shark!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 12:44 AM

Oh My God! What did I start.I hope this isn't going to be the "he man woman haters club" All you ladies out there,I'm sure you are great people. I hopeyou understand that from a man's point of view the issues are frightening.Take care of each other the best you can and don't ever stop trying.I hate being alone. Lost my mom around the same time of my divorce so I was quite vulnerable.Basically I'm alone in this marriage and need to bail out.I'm just afraid at 49 that no one will want me.Even if I am a good looking guy so they say!I believe that when people age they learn to cope because there is no hope of fixing there marriage. For those of you who stayed married for a long time I admire you don't get me wrong. But did you stay together for the right reasons and not out of fear of being alone?I hope this isn't the case.Well.See you guys. Sh Sh Sh Sh Shark!Mudshark


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 06:49 AM

The Anneagram has different authors, some are better than others. Just go to a good book store and compare, then pick the one you like best. I loaned mine to someone(as I'm wont to do) and havn't gotten it back. Now, I dont remember who has it! So, you are 49, and, worried that no one will want you? I'd like to be 49 again! An old friend of mine used to sell used cars, and, he had a saying, "There is an ass for every seat." Dani, maybe I should be giving lessons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 07:56 AM

Why did I get married? because I found a nice man who I could live with, have interesting conversations with, who could bring up our kids in a nice stable financially secure environment, and who wasn't going to be violent or run off with anyone else. Why do I choose to have affairs ? to keep me sane and to provide the romance that he can't. I didn't marry him for that bit. I havn't had the same other man for 16 years I've met 3. The current one has lasted for 5 years and is going strong. The others just moved away cos of jobs etc - we are still in touch. The current man and I meet regularly but even the friends who are part of our social group don't know. They may have an idea but to them we are just good friends, fellow musicians. We get away on our own for the occasional night or two a few times a year but mostly when other people are around we are just friends (and get by with a lot of inuendoes and secret signs!) and save the rest til we are alone. AND IT IS BRILLIANT!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 01:55 PM

Sounds to me, Guest Guest, that you have thought the whole thing through, and decided the route you want to take. Good luck, and Godspeed, I say!

Shark: you gonna take lessons from a guy that's 400 years off? Geeze, you are desperate. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 08:40 PM

Only on one thing Doug!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 02:38 AM

hey Kendall, If that is true I'm gonna buy a bus this time.My wife was nasty tonight! Bad enough I had to watch my Yankees get creamed.She has been nagging me all day! She's 44 and going through menopause. Wanna try something different?Next time when your in the sack play Brewer and Shipley's Witchi Ti Ti. Honest to God it will act as an Aphrodisiac! It's even better than Ravel's Bolero. You know... in 10 with Bo Derek.Now I don't do drugs but tried a little herb called Yohimbe the other day.Made love....knocked the struts off the headboard clear off.Don't do this too much because it will make you hyper and may elevate your blood pressure a little.On a rare occasion this can be an explosive experience.Remember the wise words of Greg Maddox who pitches for the Braves said "the chicks dig the long ball!!!!".So make it go a looong time!Whenever we can get the luxury of getting to bat!sh sh sh sh sh sh sh shark!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:07 AM

Try a little empathy man! remember, a soft answer turneth away wrath. She cant help what's going on with her body, and, if you appear to be more interested in some ball throwing thing, no wonder she nags!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Anne
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:25 AM

Hi Mudshark 1, . It's easy to say, but don't worry about your age. I'm 42 & thinking over the last year, I've found the men that I've been drawn to are 47, 53 & 54. If you have decided to start a new relationship, disentangle yourself & go for it 100 %, what makes the person who they are is the most important factor by miles. Best wishes, Anne


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:59 AM

Guest,Guest I am horrified at the way you live such a decietful life. Its taken me a few days to think what I could possibly say but I don't have the words. I have found some that come close though. I was in a position similar to your Husbands and the discovery of the lie damn near destroyed me.

Natalie Merchant "seven years"

How did I love you?
there was no measuring
far above this dirty world
far above everything
in your tower over it
you were clean

so warm and insightful
were you in my eyes
I was sure the rightful
guardian of my life
damn you betrayer
how you lied

but for seven years
you were loved
I laid golden orchid crowns
around your feet

for seven years
I bowed down
to touch the ground
so wholly your devotee

you were
all I could see

I've got my sight now
I see everything you hid
so don't you try to right now
all the wrong you did
I might forget you
but never forgive

but for seven years
you were loved
I laid golden orchid crowns
around your feet

for seven years
I bowed down
to touch the ground
so wholly your devotee

for seven years
you were so revered
I made offerings of
anything and everything I had

you were
all I could see


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Shallow woman
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM

Mudshark1. What are you waiting for? You obviously don't have a marriage. It's time to split.

As the counsellors say, let's list the pros and cons. You are extremely affectionate, earn decent buckaroos, would die for the right woman and you're good looking. She, on the other hand couldn't care less, hasn't got a clue, didn't command respect from her unbearable children (and you a teacher too) and is having an early menopause.

You should obviously just leave. There is no need to feel guilty about the children. After all they are not yours. But you say you hate being alone and walking out alone is a bit like jumping off a cliff (I know). Perhaps it would be better to take a leaf out of Guest Guest's book and start an affair. A man with your attributes shouldn't have a problem. Get a younger woman who won't hit the menopause until about the time you start having trouble with your prostate, then she'll be able to sympathise with you. When the affair's well established you can just tell your wife and leave immediately.

Or you could try being totally honest about your feelings and listen to her point of view. Then you will be able to make the most amicable arrangements possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:28 PM

Hi Guest Shallow Woman, Thank you for your thoughts!Please contact me privately as soon as you can! I would love to find out more about you!If you are interested? We seem to be on the same page!!!I'm interested


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM

Mudshark,

I saw the Mothers on that tour in '71, and saw the Mudshark number, live--and for once, the "Live" album caught the energy and excitement of the show--and of course, as a long time Turtles/Flo&Eddie Fan, the Mothers version of "Happy Together" was one one the highpoints of my life! Shallow Woman, you better dig up a copy of that album, so you hnow what you're getting in to!

As to your marriage, only you know how bad it really is, but the signs aren't good--if you are only married because you afraid that you are too old to be interesting to women, forget it--there are a lot of interesting and attractive women out there who are unattached, from ages 17 on up(I won't say anymore about that)--I am about the same age as you, a musician, chronically broke, with bad credit(my 2nd wife put my name on her student loans when I was unconscious in the hospital, and opened dozens of charge accounts in my name) and I have plenty of inquiries. I am careful not to make promises that I can't keep, which is hard to manage sometimes, but I don't mind sleeping alone--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: wendall2
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:14 PM

Hey Mudshark, New to the cafe and forum. Would strongly advise you to move on as it seems as though your needs aren't being met within the framework of your marriage. And I don't mean need in the needy sense, but are your efforts appreciated and does your spouse verbalize it? Do you do the same? It seems in marriage as in any endeavor you have to genuinely like the person(s) you live/work with. You have to be ruthlessly honest w/yourself and ask what attracted you to her in the first place? Do you feel safe or threatened in your home? I don't mean physically I mean emotionally? If you weren't married would you hang out w/her or her children? Is there any common ground? I would encourage you to find a place to stay w/a trusted friend until you get a place to live on your own. Sometimes it's just a matter of being comfortable with the level of not being happy and resigning ones self, which is why many stay in situations in which they are unhappy, It's scarey to be alone, but then you've got room to move around, do your own laundry(not that you don't now), pick out your own curtains and eat what you want. It seems that you've never treated yourself well. Maybe I'm being a bit general, but you're entitled to fulfillment, at least and it truly doesn't sound like that's the case. Don't feel guilty, she's probably as miserable as you and it's obvious her children are. You all may breathe a huge sigh of relief if and/or when you take the step. I read almost all of the comments contained herein and the reason I responded was that for the most part folks related and genuinely have tried to be helpful. You're not alone in this world just alone in your situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM

And furthermore mudshark, you are never too old! If you want details, PM me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 05:03 PM

Wendall2, how much do you charge per hour? You're good!

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM

I've been single for 4 years now, and, it's not all that bad. I get to come and go as I please, I dont have another person to consider, I can stay out all night if I want, I can take off to England or almost anywhere I choose to go. My house is furnished with stuff I picked out, if I feel like driving a ten penny nail in the wall and hanging up a banjo, I damn well do it! I've learned to get along on my own. I used to cook, clean and do dishes and laundry even when I was married, so, dont have to deal with learning all that stuff. (My wife worked, I was retired, so, I did all that stuff, AND without complaining, I might add) Yes, there is a down side. Humans were never designed to be alone all the time, and that gets to be a drag.But, it sounds like you are alone now. In fact, it's worse for you, because you are married and you have no options. Hell man, you cant have it all, where would you put it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM

Thanks Kendall, wendal and all, Your comments are well taken!I've worked hard my whole life in trying to be the best at all I do whether it be a marriage, teaching, a band or a golf game. The problem is that I am getting out of my funk since the divorce four years ago,my mothers death,my daughter's eloping with a former Latin King against my will, and a marriage promised but full of deception. I am like a damaged ship at sea struggling to stay afloat. I made wrong decisions because they were quick one's out of desparation .If I had the chance to move on and find a great lady that would be my soulmate I would do it tomorrow.It's hard to trust again after all I've been through.But you guys are right, I will look ahead and split soon! I have to do it before I lose myself!Thanks for listening you guys!I wish I could meet you all someday. I wrote a lot of songs about the things I had gone through. Ups and downs. I don't need pity, but real people and a real relationship!All The Best, JIM


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:29 PM

Beware of this idea of yours, Mudshark: "If I had the chance to move on and find a great lady that would be my soulmate I would do it tomorrow" thinking like that will just get you into another bad situation--when you make your happiness dependent on finding or being with someone else, life will be just another ride down forty miles of bad road. Business about "my daughter's eloping with a former Latin King against my will" is a bad mindset, too--it is her life, not yours, don't tie your happiness to her doing what you want.

I know the drill though, you feel very responsible for people, and you feel like you need to be involved and giving all the time--you need to figure out how to let go of all the "obligations" and "commitments" especially the ones that really only exist in your head--You need some vacation time---maybe permanent vacation time!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,shallow woman
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:37 PM

Hi Mudshark1,

This doesn't often happen, but your response was almost exactly what I had expected, and goes a long way to confirm my reading of your character. The only thing was, it was a piece of deepest irony and you never noticed. The actual advice was contained in the last paragraph. My pseudonym should have given you a clue; your own words, remember? So super intelligence isn't one of your many attributes.

You are obviously living in a house which is awash with unstable female hormones. Puberty and menopause are troublesome times, for the person experiencing them no less than for all within range. Nobody commands respect from a teenager for a third person. You either form a relationship or you don't. You must have known that your wife came as part of a package deal. Did you expect her just to ditch the kids? You could have been building a relationship with the children while you were courting her. Maybe she did just want somebody to support her children if their father isn't doing so. Throughout history women have done whatever is necessary to safeguard their children. I would guess, though, that she was looking more for emotional support and thought you could provide it.

I would guess that you've got another five years of high drama before those girls turn into charming young women. Of course it's perfectly reasonable to insist on your own personal space, but why does there need to be a power struggle beyond that? It sounds to me as if you rushed without thought into a ready-made family and then realised that it is not what you wanted. The most honourable thing would be to tell her so and then split.

Everybody else seems to be very sympathetic towards you. I'm sorry to differ, but I read your posts very carefully and found them full of self-praise – "Sensitive, affectionate, decent buckaroos, good looking". It didn't sound like a man broken in spirit. It sounded like someone who can't get his own way. On the other hand there is not a single positive or sympathetic word for your wife. Surely there must have been some reason for marrying her only three years ago. Telling her she's cold will hardly make her feel sexy. Have you tried telling her she's beautiful? If nothing else she must be pretty devastated at hitting the menopause so early. It does have a way of making you feel like a dog.

How kind of you to be interested in my totally fictitious persona. If you want a relationship without all those nasty hormones I could be just right, but you'll probably need a special pair of glasses to see me. Ever since I got to fifty I've been gradually been becoming invisible (it's been years since I could get served in a bar) and can now only be detected by salesmen, Jehovah's Witnesses and my own daughters, whose support and encouragement never wavers.

My greetings to your wife, and tell her from me that there are worse things than loneliness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:46 PM

Mudshark1, you said you were in an emotionally difficult state when you met and married your current wife due to your divorce, your mother's death, and the other things you mentioned. From what you've said, it looks like the results of that were not good.

The emotional state that, based on your description, you seem to be in now, sounds like it could be described as somewhat extreme (frustrated, like a damaged ship at sea struggling to stay afloat, etc.) Based on your prior experience, and speaking from my own experience, I think it is safe to say that any involvement you get into while you're this state will be very likely to produce results that you will not be satisfied with in the long run.

If you want to attract someone you can be happy with in the long run, you need to have, within yourself, the qualities that you would like to encounter in another. With the state you're in right now, there's a pretty good chance that you will attract only emotionally needy people, and it doesn't sound like that's what you really want to end up with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Jane Doe
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM

Mudshark1,
The best advice I can give you is under NO circumstances get involved with ANY Mudcat wimmen except perhaps as platonic, on line friends that you never intend to meet. You don't want to cross the line and take it any further. If you do, and it doesn't work out, you will regret it, and the troubles you are currently experiencing will seem miniscule by comparison. Don't use this forum as a match making service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM

Shallow woman, reread my other post. I did have a word of sympathy for his wife. Mudshark, if you dont remember anything that has been said before, remember this, if you split, you MUST spend some time alone. A year or two at least. You must not go into a relationship looking for what you can get from it. If you do, you will fail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Shallow woman
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:31 PM

Kendall, I was referring to Mudshark's words, not yours. I did note your sympathetic comments and your sensible advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:34 PM

The main thing is that when you are an emotional mess, you tend to gravitate toward people who are an emotional mess--good for conversation, but bad for making lifetime commitments(and don't try to start a business with them, either)--

As for you Shallow Woman, you've got some axes of your own to grind, after you reach fifty, I guess you're entitled--but don't pass it off as advice--


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: wendall2
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:49 PM

Thank you shallow woman for the greater revelation of character or should I say lack thereof in yourself. Any credibility to your perspectives has been completely destroyed by the condescending air of your last entry. How sad it is that you have become so bitter. To have answered someones genuine cry for help with duplicity in a forum like this is quite beyond anything I've seen on the web. I suppose it gives you a chance to feel smug and superior. Nobody's a genius when it comes to relationships and we all put our pants on one leg at a time. Yeah, Mr. Mudshark's got some growing to do and needs to do some self-examination, but all in all I'd take his honest ignorance and lack of 'super intelligence' over your sanctimonious claptrap, anytime. You revealed a great deal more about yourself from your last paragraph than it would seem you intended. Read it very, very carefully...it is seething w/ rage and frustration. Thank God you've been blessed w/dutiful daughters. Ultimately, you didn't intend to help, but to deceive and to hurt. And as I re-read your last sentence it struck me that it's not that your advancing in years that's the real sin here, but that you're doing it with no grace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:30 PM

Where are you MAX?

We and your ex are waiting for your tale.

But, you are the Mudshark, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Trevor
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM

I know, let's all blame someone else for the way we feel, then we don't have to take any responsibility at all for ourselves, and not only that but we can carry on feeling yucky until THEY change. After all, to be in control of our own lives is a bit of a challenge, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM

We get what we expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Mudshark1
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:58 PM

I didn't expect this! No one really knows unless they are in the situation or can actually see what is happening! Shallow Woman you are 100 % wrong about me. I am very giving to my wife's kids. I knew what I was getting into and I am exactly the same person I was when we first got married. I didn't fake it. You want to take my wife's side and condemn me.That is fine but you need to know that you and some of your friends just stuck a knife in my heart! I thought i found friends but I guess not. You won't be hearing from me anymore so you guys can argue all you want .Good bye Wendall and Kendall.You made the most sense. I'm sorry I started this.Shallow woman you put down my intellegence?Perhaps I have some problems but I am not stupid.If there is any one who lacks intellegence it might as well be you for making such an offensive statement!I 'll work things out!The only two people that I want to thank is the two I mentioned earlier. I wish you much happiness.All The best,Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Max
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:55 PM

Well, no, I am not Mudshark. I left my wife and child over 2 years ago. Went to start a thread once, not too long after I left, but never posted it. Never really talked about it here till recently. Nor have I ever posted anonymously. I am unashamedly me, always.

I won't post my story, though I've told it to a few Mudcatters I've met, and probably will continue to do so. I will say this though. I was married for 8 years, committed for 10. My daughter is now 11, and yes, I'm only 29. It took everything I had to walk away. And I realize now that it was the best thing I could have done for all of us. If anything, maybe I should have done it sooner.

I believe that when marriages start to go bad, the whole thing becomes incredibly and exponentially destructive. It hurts everyone involved more, and over a longer period of time to stay for reasons of responsibility or fear of what people think or guilt. The worst injustice is to sacrifice your happiness for some metaphysical concept. I could not let my child watch us be unhappy. I could not teach her that this was acceptable. I could not let her see spite, I could not let her see someone getting walked all over. I could not let her see resentment, hate.

Counseling did not help us. Nor is it really necessarily supposed to. Counselors are simply well educated arbitrators. In my case, our counselor confirmed that too much was wrong to be able to fix without starting over and changing completely. It happens, and it is supposed to happen. My mechanic is supposed to fix my car, but he says it will cost more to fix than it is worth. Hell, people choose to put their beloved pets to sleep because the treatment is too expensive. Counselors can't fix everyone.

Marriage is a religious concept. Marriage is a legal concept. Marriage is a moral concept. Marriage is a commitment to another, and so on. These various definitions do not agree with each other. When we get into these circumstances where things are just not working out, we get really upset and confused because of this. The whole concept is too rigid, and dogmatic. Marriage is a word. Marriage is not love. Marriage is not parenthood. Love is love, and a parent is a parent.

I take care of my child. My relationship with her has improved since I left. There was resentment there before. I was unhappy in my marriage, I was married because I had a child, it's a no-brainer that there would be psychological implications. Staying for the wrong reasons is just wrong, and it cost me at least a year, maybe two, maybe more with the bond that is father and child, or mother and child for that matter.

My advice? Have some balls. Sure, it is probably going to take everything you have to get do this, to get through this. But your cheating yourself, albeit slowly, and your wife and especially your child if you "tough it out" for stupid reasons. Be a real person first, one that you yourself are proud of, then everything else. All we can really ever do, especially with our children, is to show by example. Our kids will take note of that before any of our words. I want my daughter to see me for what I believe in…

We are here to be happy. (period)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: Susan from California
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 10:48 PM

Max, thank you for saying what I have been thinking about staying for the kids. The healthiest thing I ever did for my kids was to leave a horible marriage. I did not want my kids to see a toxic relationship as a model for what marriage should be. They now have a positive and healthy relationship as a model for marriage, and we are all the better for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 12:49 AM

Three options in a bad relationship: 1. Work on it (this takes two, obviously). 2. Live with it. 3. Get out of it. Simple enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: kendall
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 01:46 PM

Max, I'm amazed that your experience is exactly like mine. A carbon copy! One of my daughters told me in later years that she would have really resented it if I had stayed in a dead marriage for her sake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musicians who have the bad marriage blue
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 05:50 PM

What about me, Mudshark? I am on your side, and I said what needed to be said to Shallow Woman in a couple sentences, not a couple of run on paragraphs that no one will read(Sorry wendall, but brevity is the soul of wit)--


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 21 September 5:06 AM EDT

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