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AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE

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DougR 13 Sep 01 - 02:15 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM
Kim C 12 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM
Paul from Hull 12 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM
Lonesome EJ 12 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM
Turtle 12 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 03:52 PM
Firecat 12 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM
Cappuccino 12 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,War Pigs 12 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM
Firecat 12 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM
Turtle 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM
Steve in Idaho 12 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,CHP 12 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM
Cappuccino 12 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 12 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Les B 12 Sep 01 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,I, hurricane 12 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM
Pseudolus 12 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM
Cappuccino 12 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM
Cappuccino 12 Sep 01 - 01:53 PM
Don Firth 12 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM
SharonA 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,Nick 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM
Willie-O 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM
SharonA 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM
bet 12 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,I, hurricane 12 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM
Lonesome EJ 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM
Willie-O 12 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM
Lepus Rex 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM
Airto 12 Sep 01 - 12:18 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 PM
GUEST, I, hurricane (on a different computer) 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM
Willie-O 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM
Amos 12 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM
Fibula Mattock 12 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:15 AM

Dammit, McGrath! Comparing Hiroshima to this is ludicrous! That was WWII! You can be damn well glad that the bomb was dropped or else many more Brits, as well as other Allies, including the U. S. would have lost a lot more lives! And how could you, a Brit, object to the the other bombings in WW2, inclucing Dresden? Would you prefer that the national language in Great Britian today be German, insead of English?

This is an act of Terriorism. It could happen to any major city in the world!

And Arafat giving blood! My God, I can't believe you folks are taken in by that!

Well ...yes...I guess I can.

DougR


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

This thread is closed. Please do not post any more messages in this thread. Additional messages will be deleted.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

Okay.....One last thread maybe? Here's #6

Love you all and thanks for playing......Tell 'em what they won Johnny!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM

Thanks kat

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Thanks, guys, I wasn't sure how it would be received, but felt it offered some balance to the other images of celebration.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM

I think that most Palestinians, and most Muslims, are horrified at this turn of events. Most people who are HUMAN would be. Seems like every group has a few bad apples that don't do anything but wreak havoc and make everyone else look bad.

I do not think for one second that Arafat had anything at all to do with this. Mister agrees, but adds that Arafat has pretty much lost control with the younger Palestinians because he has tried to play nice, at least part of the time.

The thing that really gripes me is, these people used civilian resources - our own resources - against us. I have heard a lot of comments about "military intelligence not being good enough" ... but these people didn't go through military channels. Who would have been looking at commercial airlines for something like this?

We have a lot of great new technological marvels in the military but it looks to me like we are going to have to go back to fighting the Indians, so to speak. When we white folks were first fighting the Native Americans, we found out real quick that our learned military tactics were no match for guerilla warfare. We may have a great missile defense system, but it ain't going to work against people who aren't firing missiles.

Did anyone see Brokaw's interview with Schwarzkopf last night? They did the interview, then as they were wrapping it up, the General said, I have one more observation I'd like to make. When we were in Desert Storm, we went out of our way, and even endangered the lives of our own people, in order to avoid civilian casualties. And what these bastards have done is deliberately kill our civilians. [and boy was he MAD - you could see it in his face]

And Brokaw said, Well put, General.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM

Yes, well done in posting it Kat.....Thankyou.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

Whatever Arafat is, that gesture shows his best nature. Thanks Kat.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Turtle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM

Thanks for posting that, Kat.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:52 PM

I know Arafat is no prince, but the other parts of this news story are a nice antidote to the images from yesterday os some Palestinians rejoicing. Please read on:

Arafat Donates Blood for U.S. Victims Photos By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Yasser Arafat donated blood Wednesday for the victims of the terror attacks in New York and Washington while other Palestinians held a vigil in Jerusalem in sympathy with the United States. ''God bless them,'' Arafat said as medical staff prepared to draw his blood in Gaza Shifa hospital. Palestinian officials said his donation would be the start of a blood drive for the casualties of Tuesday's attacks.

It was unclear if arrangements had been made to transfer the blood from Gaza and the West Bank to the United States. Thousands of Israelis donated blood Wednesday, health officials said.

Dozens of Palestinian men, women and children gathered in front of the U.S. Consulate in East Jerusalem, lighting candles and placing flowers along its walls.

Some of the placards they carried read: ``Terror is our common enemy'' and ``We are victims too.''

Tuesday, some in the West Bank city of Nablus and Arab East Jerusalem rejoiced publicly after hijacked planes slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi told a news conference the celebrations were ``misguided'' and ``aberrations'' motivated by a feeling among Palestinians that they have been victims of U.S. backing for Israel.

At least 569 Palestinians and 165 Israelis have been killed since a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation began last September after peace talks stalled.

Israel has used U.S.-made weapons, including F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters, in some of the fighting.

HORROR MOVIE

Many Palestinians spent a sleepless night glued to television sets as they followed the developments in New York and Washington.

``I thought I was watching a Hollywood horror movie...I couldn't believe my eyes,'' Mohammad Khaled, 20, a student in Ramallah in the West Bank, told Reuters.

``We the Palestinians are human beings and we don't celebrate when others are mourning,'' 42-year-old housewife Amal Qassem told Reuters from Bethlehem.

``Although Israel hits us every day with American Apache helicopters and uses American weapons to kill our people, we send our condolences to the families of the victims,'' she said.

Arafat condemned the attacks as a ``terrible act'' Tuesday and said he would help track down those responsible if asked by the Americans.

Palestinians have slammed the United States, alleging bias toward Israel in the Middle East conflict. They have burned U.S. flags during the nearly year-old revolt.

TRAGEDY SHOULD NOT BE EXPLOITED

Many who spoke to Reuters Wednesday said they feared Israel would exploit the events in the United States to portray the Arabs and Muslims as ``terrorists.''

Arafat delayed a planned visit to Syria Wednesday in the aftermath of the attacks. Palestinian officials said he put on hold all plans and meetings and his office was monitoring developments with concern.

For some Palestinian officials the attacks dealt a heavy blow to hopes for direct U.S. involvement to end the bloodshed and revive the peace process.

``Of course we have differences with the Americans because America supports Israel but we do not accept this tragedy against the Americans. This is a terrible terrorist act,'' said Nadia Hamadan, 33, from Nablus.

Palestinian analyst Ghassan al-Khatib said the ``human tragedy'' in the United States should not be exploited for political gains by making Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims look like the ``bad guys.''


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Firecat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Ian, it was the same clip as you got in Britain, cos I live in Doncaster, South Yorkshire!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

You need governments maybe if you are going to have to supply your own bombs and war planes and high tech weapons.

But this nightmare didn't need anything more than a roomful of people willing to die and kill, a few knives, and a timetable. The bombs and planes and high tech were there for the taking. A bit like the way viruses work in our bodies.

I'm scared that the people in charge are going to decide what to do, not on the basis of what they can do that minimises the possibility of something like this happening again, but on the basis of finding some action that will look big enough and strong enough to match the enormity of what happened yesterday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

Firecat, if that's the same clip we got in Britain, the policeman also said that his own wife was missing.

We have also had a most bizarre report of a situation in which one member of a family is said to have been working in the WTC, and another member of the family was in one of the planes.

Now that does leave you speechless.

- Ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,War Pigs
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

I agree that ill-directed reprisals can cause more harm than good. However, many terrorist attacks are only possible because of overt or tacit support by various nations. If such nations start losing several refineries, airbases, etc. per day, i can just about guarantee you that their resolve will weaken in terms of supporting terrorist organizations.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Firecat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

I watched the events yesterday with horror, but when I was watching the news today, I saw a heartwarming story amid the chaos that the attacks have obviously caused.

A mum took her two little daughters to find their father, who was in the World Trade Centre at the time of the attacks. A police officer told them to stop, so they did, still not knowing whether the girl's dad was safe or not. About half an hour later, they found him alive and (from what the pictures on TV showed) unhurt.

I was also relieved to hear about the six firemen pulled alive from the wreckage. They had apparently got into a hole, so when the towers collapsed, the rubble caused an air pocket.

Let's hope some more people have escaped like that, but my heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones.

I actually cried when I heard about it, and I went with JeZeBeL to the session last night. It's useful playing bodhran when something like this happens, because you can take all your anger out on the bodhran!

Love, peace, rainbows, stars and butterflies, Firecat. xo*oxo*oxo*ox


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Turtle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

Brett, the NPR report I heard said that was a high-end estimate made by the folks who are going to send in emergency response teams. Clearly they have to think about what the worst-case scenario is. Giuliani is still saying a couple of thousand in each building, for a total of 4-6 thousand. So I guess that's the range: 4,000 to 40,000. Quite a range.

Turtle


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

LeeJ said, We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

I'd like to think we could do both.

To everyone who is teaching in classrooms today, like my sister "bet", I applaud you and send you good thoughts, energy, and give thanks that you are sustained throughout this difficult day by the support you may find here and by those where you are, esp. working with young children.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I cannot conceive of anything more likely to ensure that this sort of thing happens again than massive and ill-directed reprisals, which can be guaranteed to produce large numbers of people willing to die to avenge what the will see as atrocities.

Terror breeds terror. Atrocity brings reprisal brings counter-reprisal, in an escalating spiral.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Ah Little Hawk - My Brother you speak so well - Peace, Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,CHP
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM

Folks,

I doubt that U.S. retaliation would involve anything on the scale of New York as it pertains to civilians. However, any attempt to make amends is going to be a messy business. Bombing military or strategic targets is inevitably going to result in "collateral" damage. Likewise, assasinating or kidnapping those responsible is viewed as violating the sovereignty of the nations that "host" such people. Sanctions aren't a big help because we often catch our so-called allies violating them. I think most people would agree that these people, and the nations that support them, have to be punished. The question is, do we have the stomach for it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Les, not only do I agree with you, but it reflects something I've been thinking for 24 hours or so, but didn't want to post for fear of being thought... oh, I don't know what, perhaps trivialising the situation.

In times of previous tragedies, people would congregate in certain places... village squares, churches, and so on. And now, what's the equivalent? I haven't a clue why I logged into Mudcat 24 hours ago, and stuck here virtually constantly ever since... I'm not clever enough to understand the sociology of it, but it has served a variety of quite remarkable services, from information, to support, to philosophy...

Oh, you know what I mean, don't you? Thanks, Mudcat. - Ian B


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

It seems some folks took offense at my post yesterday. I meant no offense. Now. Consider this - Wars are won by a couple of distinct ways.

First, you destroy the opposition military and its capability to make war - the non-jargon translation is, "Kill the enemy army." Americans - see the state of the Confederate Army by April, 1865.

Another option is to destroy the opposition "will to combat", their eagerness to fight. Damaging this is not enough, it leaves the chance that it will be revived. The Yanks did this to Japan at the end of WWII, AFTER seriously weakening the military. The shock value on the population and the rank-and-file military (and the emperor) of two cities destroyed by two bombs undercut the jingoism of the military high command. The concept of bushido simply does not stand to an opponent you can not touch.

A variant of this was what happened to Germany and Russia in WWI - neither could continue because of social breakdow directly related to the war.

This is also precisely how irregular forces defeat conventional military forces - resisting and avoiding pitched battles unless victory is certain, hit and run tactics - as were seen in Ireland 1920-21, Indo-China in the '50's, Viet Nam with the Yanks and, more recently, Sudan. When political concerns limit the ability of the military to conduct operations, the military will lose. Period.

To defeat irregular forces, which is the way that most "terrorists" see themselves, conventional forces must know what the rules are. Since the government of the conventional forces usually set the rules, and are influenced by the public opinion at home and abroad, most irregulars simply use the same rules against them.

The most common way is to hide in a sympathetic nation-state, whose national sovereignty prevents another nation-state from invading. They will use civillians as shields and protest bombings as murdering civillians. (Consider that schools and hospitals were flattened according to Japanese and German news reports from 1939-45, but military installations were undamaged.)

Mr. Bush's speech last night set out in very strong diplomatic language that there would be counter-strikes. These strikes are not limited to the issues of nation-states (which would mean war) but also to the group immediately responsible for the actions and any group or nation-state that supports, protects or shelters them. Thus, if a nation-state initiated this, we will make war on that state. If a nation-state shelters those who did this, we will make war on them as well.

Now, this is not new. It has long been the view of most nations that weapons respond to weapons. Attacks are responded to by like attacks.

The attack yesterday was on the US Military infrastructure, and the US and international financial systems. Thus, while the attack was directed at the US and involved Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and any other nation which had corporations with offices in the WTC. This attack was intended to strike both a symbol, and the actual fact, of international trade and the world economy.

To let this stand unanswered is to let the concept of democratic government be abandoned and let the war-lords have their way. THIS is why you'll see much diplomatic activity in the near future.

Finally, Islam is based on love. The Pillars of Islam include charity and compassion. It is not Muslims in general who made this attack, but people of the same ilk who kill people of one Christian sect because they belong to another sect. Jihad is meant to spread the faith, not slaughter non-combatants, no matter what fanatics say. When Hammas condemns the attack as cowardly, that carries far more weight than George Bush in some circles.

When retribution comes (not if) it will be swift and terrible.

I wish it could be different, that talking would fix everything. The fact is, some folks simply will not talk.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:21 PM

After yesterday's stunning events, I've been amazed at the warm and thought-provoking contents of these threads. While I couldn't access the news web sites yesterday -- I assume they were overloaded -- I found much more pertinent info here.

I was about to ask what Bin Laden's "beef" with the U.S. was, but see that Lonesome EJ has answered that -- although, as has been pointed out here often, it's still a question of "if" it was him.

Beyond that, if Bin Laden is a millionaire, what is his money in ? Wouldn't destroying the Trade Center affect some of his wealth ? Or maybe not.

It's also been interesting to me to see how the media has covered this. TV is/was hands down the most immediate - in terms of the visual. But as several people have pointed out, their substantive material is, as always, suspect. I couldn't help thinking that it was these same talking heads who authoritatively pronounced Gore the winner, until quite late, in the Presidential election.

Radio, to me, was mostly useless. Harried announcers describing plumes of smoke just didn't handle it. Once in a while there was an interesting interview with a terrorism expert, but... mostly useless.

Even more useless, our local newspaper decided to put out an afternoon edition, of material that was several hours old, and mostly saying nothing. And to make it more obvious how far behind they were, they advertised it with a bottom "banner crawl" on the local TV station. They are so old fashioned in their thinking, it's hopeless !!!

And, as mentioned above, while I thought the news web sites would be the most informative, I couldn't get on. But then I looked here at Mudcat, and found much more thoughtful commentary than most professional media outlets were offering. I love this place !!!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

>>>"reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

IanB <<<<

One of Dana Carvey's best was when he did an imitation of George Bush talking to Hussein in "language he could understand." Full of ridiculous images: "I am a growling Tiger and you are a slithering snake in the desert," or something.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

They just announced the ESTIMATED death toll in New York is 40,000!

What a terrible thing to hear! The hospitals in New York are not being overcrowded. The doctors are waiting and no influx of casualties is arriving.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM

Naemanson,
The time to prevent the NEXT incident is now. The goal should not be the destruction of human life but to eliminate the ability to carry out another attack. I believe lives will be lost but even those lives will be lost in vain if retaliation is not swift, presise and complete.

You're right, the loss of ANY life is horrific, but to stand idly by and allow this type of horrer to happen again is irresponsible.

Frank


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM

7.10pm English time. BBC reports that Saddam Hussein has said that America is "reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

Kendall! I just heard that they are calling for the reinstitution of the Sky Marshall program. It's probably the most useful thing they could have done.

You know, a friend pointed out last night that GWB called the attack an act of terrorism BEFORE the second plane hit the WTC! How did he know?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

Anyone who has played even the simplest of Flight Simulator games knows how much can be learned from a computer program for just a few bucks.....Something maybe LIKE THIS for a start............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Regarding our potential retaliation:

The President has called the terrorists a group of people who have no regard for human life. If we respond with a massive attack are we not doing the same thing without regard for human life?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:53 PM

This appeared on a news feed, 6.41 British time:

Police in America tonight made the first arrests in the investigation into the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.

Several people were held at gunpoint in a hotel in Boston, the city from which the two hijacked flights which slammed into the World Trade Centre in New York, killing thousands, left.

And more people were taken into custody in southern Florida, where FBI agents and local police were concentrating their efforts on flying schools with flight simulators and were said to be "very interested" in one student at Huffmann Aviation School in the state.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Just to keep the incidental information tidy, the plane that hit the Empire State Building was a B-25 Mitchell bomber, the same type that bombed Tokyo during WWII. Twin engines and small enough to take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier. The twin towers of the WTC were built to withstand being hit by a 707 (they hoped), which, I believe, was the largest airliner at the time.

Don (just bein' picky and pedantic) Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

News: One suspect in custody at the Boston hotel. One officer reported wounded.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

The bag was checked was it not? If it was checked and was intentionally not put on the plane then you have a bagage handler, or other airline employee as an acomplice. Or was it just a case of airline screw-up?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Just one thing to be thankful for, and that is that this thing didn't happen at the height of the Cold War. Nobody is going to be taking reprisals against people with a massive nuclear arsenal.

The assumption that this is a huge conspiracy involving governments and all that just isn't necessarily true. All it needed was a bunch of people willing to die, and ready to kill as many people as required, together with the kind of information about flights and aeroplanes and so forth that any of us with Internet access could get together within a few hours if we really had to.

Plus the knowledge that there was a virtually non-existent security system for internal flights in the USA.

The key component being the first - the bunch of people willing to die and kill. If the response to this is the kind of response that some people are predicting, the effect will be to create a whole lot more of that component.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

1 suspect has been arrested at The Westin Hotel according to CNN, it is said the suspect has POSSIBLE links to Bin Ladin. Fox News & CNN are covering this now.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

Hurricane: that''s my point. These items were left there as a message, not because they were in use until they were left behind. (unless its an unlikely coincidence, the least likely explanation). Who actually left them, and why, is anyone's guess right now.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

News: Police FBI agents are searching on the 16th or 17th floor of the Westin-Copley (sp?) Hotel in the Back Bay area of Boston, Massachusetts. A SWAT team entered the hotel about 15 minutes ago, heavily armed with bulletproof vests on, with shields up. Rumors of a bomb inside, but building has not been evacuated.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: bet
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

As I planned for my day at school thinking that I should do something special for the day the only thing that came to mind was sing patriotic songs. Our children are to young to truely understand it all but we have some great songs. How our lives will be changed. It is comforting to know that we have friends around the world sharing in our greif and disbelief. Stay safe all! bet


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

>>>The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

Bill <<<<

Whoa, they sure do. Are we to believe those guys were watching and learning from the video on their way to the airport?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

Someone mentioned that now opposition to all of Bush's proposals for greater defense expenditures would "collapse like the Twin Towers". Aside from the obviously distasteful comparison, I think the indication is contrary to Bush's security linch-pin : The Starwars System. If anything, this event showed how vulnerable we are to the new form of terrorist attack, one which Starwars would have done nothing to prevent. I certainly support increased security expenditure, but put it where it will do some good, not into some Maginot Line designed to fight a war of the past century.

It seems more and more that Bin Laden was involved. I believe he will be located and , I hope, executed. I don't want to see a prolonged trial with its potential for "Free Bin Laden" demonstrations and attacks. I am under no illusion that killing him will end this. We are entering a new phase of this war, but it is a war that has been going on for some time already. There will be retaliation against the perpetrators, but new villains will arise in his place, true believers in the sanctity of his cause. I believe that most renegade nations such as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran will bow down before the wrath of the US, but the Terrorist Organizations themselves will gain strength and martyrs, and will only become more covert in their relationships with these governments.

Apparently Bin Laden's primary issue with us is the continuing presence of American troops in the Middle East after the end of the Persian War, a presence that serves to protect the more moderate governments, such as Saudi Arabia, who welcome our presence there. As such, our troops prevent the ascendence of additional Islamic Extremist governments, which is Bin Laden's actual goal. There is also no doubt but that oil is at the crux of our national interest in the area. The Saudis can be counted on to keep the spigots open, while Islamic fundamentalists would have no compunction about shutting off supply to achieve political ends.

What are our options? We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

One thing is sure : It took years of tangled-web weaving to get to this point, and no surgical strike or other quick solution will grant anything but short-term gratification.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

There's a chain of circumstantial evidence developing. The materials found included:
  • a Koran
  • a flight-training video for commercial airliners
  • a fuel-loading chart for airliners.

Could be:

  1. "Moslem" terrorists who wanted to fly a plane and were interested in the fuel loading factors
  2. Someone who wanted the above to be suspected
  3. a coincidence, somebody studying to be an airline pilot.

    Except, and I hate to mention this, the car was found from information from someone who remembered seeing and having words with 5 "Arab" men in a parking garage. Once again, its CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence.

    Remember "John Doe #2" in OK City? The swarthy fellow whose only problem as a suspect or witness was that he seemed not to actually exist...despite being the most wanted man in the world for a few days, in the media.

    The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

    Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM

Could it be that these "incriminating materials" might have belonged to a Muslim victim on one of the planes? Or have they now identified the hijackers and their cars?
---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Airto
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:18 PM

I am completely shocked by what has happened. My brother from Dublin was somewhere in Manhattan yesterday and I was so relieved to hear he is OK. Countless others, from all over the world, are not so fortunate.

My thoughts are with everybody caught up in this terrible atrocity, and I'm keeping fingers crossed for all of those who call in here, for their loved ones and friends.

Meanwhile, let the voices of reason prevail. Yes to strategic action to stop terrorism. No to blunt acts of revenge.

My impression of atrocities in Ireland is that the victims and those closest to them generally aren't the ones who call for vengeance. They know too much about the consequences to ever visit them on others.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 PM

Hi Willie-O,

Yeah, that is one thing we have to keep in mind. We cannot jump to the conclusion that any one group has done this. Evidence can be planted, claims can be made, and the wrong people get the wrong idea. One group develops plans for vengeance and another group celebrates. Both could be wrong!

Let's keep a clear head and wait for the evidence.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST, I, hurricane (on a different computer)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

Bush used the term "war" in his speech today which he didn't do yesterday. Reporters hit him with that Act passed in the Reagan years about going to Congress for any Act of War, and he didn't respond. I don't know if there is any legally recognized way to use the term war where another nation state is not involved.

kendall: I meant I couldn't use my real name Dan or Danny and I didn't even bother to try DannyBoy. I could have used a string of numbers, I guess, but that's no fun.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

Brett (Naemanson), good to hear from you, and you're taking a very level-headed view of these terrible events. Your point about going-to-Allah's-garden has been made many many times.

There were two stashes of these incriminating materials found, so far: one in the rental car, and another in the checked-in bag that didn't go on the doomed plane with its apparent owner.

We should bear in mind that these were so obviously planted, so that they could be found and their contents would tell a story, that we must ask what the motivation for leaving this evidence was.

It could have been to tell the world that this was "propaganda of the deed" by Moslems.

Maybe it was. But if it wasn't, it sure is a good way of putting all the suspicion on the Arabs, and shifting it away from someone else.

Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM

It is totally unimaginable that any living thing could do this.

I find it unimaginable too. But for all that, there is nothing unusual in it. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Dresden. Hamburg. And the list could go on a lot longer, and it is all that likely to get longer still.

All we need is to believe that this is something that we need to do and are entitled to do as a way of balancing some atrocity that "we" remember and "they" ignore. And that is the way a lot of people seem to be thinking today in the wake of yesterday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Excerpts from a discussion on the architectures involved FWIW, kendall:

Very tall buildings are hard to build, not only for the obvious strength and safety reasons, but also because needed services (i.e. elevators, plumbing, wiring, stairs, air-conditioning ducts) require increasing amounts of overhead as the building gets taller. In addition to bigger beams and columns, tall buildings need more elevators, bigger pipes, etc. than short campus-style buildings. As building height increases, these overhead items grow faster more quickly than the usable floor space, making very tall buildings hard to justify economically. Making very tall buildings make business sense requires a significant architectural and engineering effort.

The World Trade Centers existed because of their architecture and the supporting engineering. Unlike other skyscrapers, the exterior walls of the World Trade Centers were load bearing. [See for a brief discussion]. The whole building was a vertical truss, and the interior was column free. Without this design, it is unlikely that the WTC could have been built on that site. The architecture enabled the existence of the building.

As we saw in the painful to watch news footage of September 11, 2001, when the load bearing walls were damaged, the whole structure became unstable and collapsed.

Simply telling the engineers to make the building stronger is not a viable answer. Of course they could make it stronger, add redundancy, or both. But at the cost not only of the material and labor to add the strength, but at the cost of substantially increasing the overhead of the building itself. If the building's internal overhead becomes larger, the economics of the project quickly disappear. There are hard numbers of dollars behind the decisions not to build buildings bigger than the Empire State Building up until the WTC towers, and if the WTC architecture is not feasible or acceptable, then the density it enables will not be possible.

The implications for the city are huge. Successful public transportation requires that large numbers of commuters go to the same place at about the same time. Similarly, the density of people is what enables the wonderful shops, markets, theaters and clubs of New York. The lack of density is a direct cause of the decline in quality of life.

The attacks on the World Trade Centers caused a horrible loss of individual human lives today, and there is a significant chance it will cause a significant loss of life of the city in the future.

***********

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:25:30 -0700 From: John Young

The '45 Empire State Building crash is oft studied in architectural and structural engineering to learn why the building withstood the hit. The plane was a B-24, I believe, but in any case a much smaller craft than the ones which hit the WTC and the Pentagon. The '45 plane's engines did penetrate the building, shooting out the far side and falling to the ground and killing passersby, but most of the plane remained inside the structure for it was made of far more fragile materials than a building. A relative small amount of damage was done to the structure of the building though fire was devastating, especially from flaming gasoline cascading inside.

The fireball that shot from the second WTC tower hit, opposite where the jetliner penetrated, blew out windows and perhaps part of the latticework exterior structure. Flaming fuel probably cascaded down the shafts of elevators and ductwork and stairwells whose fire-protection enclosures would have been destroyed by the explosive crash and ballistic heavy plane parts. These fuel flames, and fires started from them, would have weakened interior structural support beyond protection provided by code-required fireproofing. Once the interior structural supports were weakened, and the exterior lattice lost its integrity collapse was inevitable.

I modify my first evaluation to speculate that the interior supports appear to have given way before the exterior lattice (whose girdle of closely-space columns and thin vertical windows between gave the buildings a unique look compared to use of large panes of glass elswhere) The lattice amazingly contained the interior collapse and the whole mess dropped vertically, almost, as newscasters report, as if executed by a demo expert.

I did not expect the Twin Towers to collapse. To suffer terrible fires and localized interior damage but not total collapse. The first was unbelievable, and as I said, I thought only the portion above the crash fell. Then the smoke cleared momentarily to show the totality. Then the second tower, collapsing in a near-perfect copy of the first. The sudden dropping of the floors above the crash, that impacting load overpowering the remaining system, and the straight drop collapse, neither tower falling much to the side, indicated what had happened.

Close-ups of the exterior show the latticework bridging the crash penetrations, reminding of sales pitches from the 19th Century when cast-iron manufacturers promoted their architecture with structural compoments missing with no apparent destabilization -- the load automatically shifting to remaining components. Their prognostications failed at the first intense fire which overheated and cracked the cast iron, sometimes collapsing more quickly than predecessor masonry bearing wall and wood floor system composites.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM

It was announced today that the hijackers who took the boston planes traveled left for Boston from the Portland (Maine) Jetport. They left a rental car that contained Arabic language documents and other evidence. Also one of the bags checked by the hijackers did not get on to the plane and is said to contain a copy of the Koran.

Please note these terrorists obviously believed they were headed for heaven as the result of their actions. This points to the easy manipulation of the word of God by religious leaders. We must be cautious.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

kendall - as far as I know that was a B25 - smaller plane, probably less fuel on board, and the Empire State building has a completely different structure.


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