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AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE

Related threads:
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Masters of war who build the big guns (45)
Fly the FLAG!!! (175)
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American Attacks**Part Fifty - Got him! (56)
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AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is (116) (closed)
AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO (116) (closed)
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AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts (101) (closed)
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Prayers/Thoughts for all involved (32)
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Non-music: God Bless America (Sept 2001) (6) (closed)
PLEASE STAY OFF THE PHONE LINES (2)
Partial list of casualties - more later (6)
AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR (115) (closed)
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catspaw49 11 Sep 01 - 11:13 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM
wysiwyg 11 Sep 01 - 11:32 PM
mmm1a 11 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM
momnopp 11 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM
flattop 11 Sep 01 - 11:55 PM
GUEST,maire 12 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM
Art Thieme 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM
DougR 12 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM
CarolC 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM
DougR 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM
Lepus Rex 12 Sep 01 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,Chip2447 12 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM
flattop 12 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM
flattop 12 Sep 01 - 12:57 AM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM
CarolC 12 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM
flattop 12 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM
Troll 12 Sep 01 - 02:42 AM
Ella who is Sooze 12 Sep 01 - 03:55 AM
Jelly bean 12 Sep 01 - 04:19 AM
mooman 12 Sep 01 - 04:22 AM
Wolfgang 12 Sep 01 - 04:44 AM
Fiolar 12 Sep 01 - 05:53 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM
kendall 12 Sep 01 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,BanjoRay 12 Sep 01 - 06:10 AM
Trevor 12 Sep 01 - 06:10 AM
English Jon 12 Sep 01 - 06:21 AM
CarolC 12 Sep 01 - 06:43 AM
English Jon 12 Sep 01 - 06:47 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 08:06 AM
KitKat 12 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:13 PM

We heard from annamil earlier in the day and she was upset but okay......Check thread two I think.

One more thread..........

PREVIOUS THREAD #4

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

It just keeps getting worse............all I can do is pray for all on the planet. The paranoia has hit little old T-town Wyoming.......Mr Sorcha was home (finally) for supper break at 8:30 our time.......as he was leaving, we saw two males crossing our front lawn......."Gentlemen, you need to come back over here, please"......all was actually OK, but holy crapola. Gasoline here is stilll under $2/gal, but not on the Interstate near here......o dear, where will it end?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM

800 reported dead at the Pentagon............


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:32 PM

fixed broken link


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: mmm1a
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

There are no words to describe this feeling, shock,horror, sadness come no where near. my prayers and thought to all. mmm


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: momnopp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

I just noticed on katlaughing's post on thread 4 something that probably lots of others already saw:

9-11 (today's date in US format) 911 (emergency number dialed in US)

UGH!

My voice goes out to all humanity in a wish for peace.

JudyO


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:55 PM

Perhaps I miss-interpreted what you were saying Spaw. Sorry.

Troll wrote, 'Those who are guilty must pay. Those who are innocent should not.'

We can completely ignore the fact that he used a weaker verb to protect the innocent than revenge the guilty. What I'd like to know is, if these enemies of the U.S., feel that Americans have been guilty of destroying their families and their lives and they say, 'Those who are guilty must pay, those who are innocent should not,' where does the game end? who has the high moral ground? who has the right to kill who?

The other issue that is being ignored in the heat of the moment is that this attack proves that our western countries are completely vulnerable to attack from people with limited resouces. I thought that we were vulnerable in hundreds of areas but I would never have imagined such a dramatic attack on major centres. Billions of dollars in armaments and all the conceit in the western world did not prevent this attack.

This must be obvious to anyone that we pick to be our enemies. What if they feel that justice will be done if they kill one of us for each one of their killed? Are we ready for games like that?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,maire
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

In spite of the understandable stress and tension that have cropped up occasionally in today's threads, I'd just like to say 'thank you, all' for being out there. The support and concern you folks have shown has been a real comfort to many of us.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

yes


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM

Flattop: "people with limited resources." What in the world leads you to believe that these Terriorists had limited resources, and that such an attack could have been launched with "limited resources?" This attack was well planned, well executed, and it required a great deal of money to train and equip the perpetrators! Where are you coming from, my friend?

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM

Flattop, I think after reading your last two posts we are on similar, if not exactly, the same page.

What if they feel that justice will be done if they kill one of us for each one of their killed? Are we ready for games like that?

And even moreso, if, and I mean IF, it is Islamic Freedom Fighters, they would view that as an honor and great victory.....which is what makes it even more frightening because we don't understand that mindset.....and we need to or we can never stop the cycle.

I'd go on, but I'm tired tonight, and saddened by the day. Perhaps the next few days will bring more reason to us all.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM

Art, you may be ready for games like that, but I am not.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM

Ok, Spaw, my friend, then I have to direct my remarks to you as well as flattop, since you are so in accord with his views.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:19 AM

How would a bunch of guys with box cutters be expensive? And so they could steer a plane into a building... So could you, Doug, with minimal training. And a lack of money has no effect on someone's ability to plan such an attack.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM

Peace to all of the families who have lost loved ones today. I havent read all five episodes of the thread and if I'm repeating someone I apologize. May those guilty burn in whatever hell they believed in, May those innocents bask in whatever afterlife they believed in.
May the innocent Muslims who live in the USA be spared from ignorant retribution.
Pax....


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM

What Lepus said.

Actually Doug, they certainly DO have resources, but in the grand scheme of things and on a comparitive basis, I'd have to say they were pretty limited. But it did take experience at this type of thing, committed people to do it, a place to train, and the ability to organize and execute a well coordinated plan.

Let's all just concentrate on the ones who are dead and injured, on their families and friends.........And let's act with reason and do things that will end terrorism worldwide and not just garner revenge for this attack.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: flattop
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

A lot less money than any one of your aircraft carriers, Doug?

I agree spaw. It's a confusing day for all of us. I feel that no one should be condemned or censured for their thoughts on a day like this. However, we may have to rethink carefully before taking any action. Perhaps or brains will work better in the morning or a few mornings down the road.

Anyone who can't sleep tonight, try writing your feelings to mudcat or PM mudcatters or send e-mails. Do it anonymously if it helps. Don't worry about what other people think. Let it out. Scream it, cry it, whisper it, but let your feelings out.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

Just had a good cry with my one child near enough to wrap my arms around. She has so many friends who are of draft age, as well as my sister's son. This has to be resolved without sending our young ones out to wholesale slaughter!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: flattop
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:57 AM

I think a draft would be highly unlikely as a result of this business. The U.S. has turned to technology and away from massive amounts of manpower. All our opinions floating around the internet will also be a problem for military leaders. Any action will be second guessed and discussed worldwide.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM

Good point, flattop, thank you and I hope that you are right.

She just nailed the feeling I have had ever since awakening to this. She was in my womb when I saw the first Star Wars movie. She has been raised on them. She said she has been thinking all day of what Obi-Won- Kenobi said when Darth Vader and the evil prince, sorry can't remember his name, blew up the home planet. Obie-Won, said, "I feel a disturbance in the Force." My baby hold her hand over her heart and said, with tears running down her cheeks, "Mom, I felt a disturbance in the Force."

I wish my grandsons and their parents were not living next to the nuclear sub-base in CT. I wish all of my children were here to wrap my arms around.

katgrieving


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM

Moving this over from part two, since it was posted after parts three, four, and five were started, and it might be missed by a lot of people.


Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO From: GUEST,alison kelley Date: 12-Sep-01 - 01:36 AM

My friend Darren Bohan is missing. He was on the 102nd floor of I believe the South Tower. Darren is a regular at Fredy's Old Timey Jam in Brooklyn and lives in Queens. I don't know how to reach his family or other friends. Any info or news please call me 718-636-6341 or email alicat@nyct.net Please ask everyone you know!!!!!!!

Alison Kelley


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: flattop
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM

I've never been a Starwars fan, kat, not a fan of most war movies, but I understand about the force. You and your daughter and Sorcha and the other mothers have to be one of the forces pushing for a better outcome. You might even have to start a dialogue with 'the enemy mothers' because things aren't going so well with the forces that have been assuming power.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM

flattop, I have known of women's groups, in the 80's, who were trying to do just that. Maybe some good can come of this if it motivates us to rekindle those efforts, because I think you are right. If we can have Mothers Against Drunk Driving, why not Mothers Against Terrorism/Wars, or simply Mothers for World Peace? Doesn't sounds as good as MADD, but we need to do it anyway. The Mothers for World Peace, could be MoWP and have a mop as a symbol.:-)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:42 AM

A big jet is a complex piece of machinery if you are doing take-offs and landings. But you could learn to "steer" one in a couple of hours if you understood the principals behind what you were doing.
But to learn this requires a big jet to practice on and it's unlikely that anyone short of a national government would have access to one.
Osama bin Laden may have been the one who carried out the hijackings and crashes, but he had to have backing from higher up. I'd guess Iraq.
Flattop, sorry about the weak verb. I do agree with you about the draft, tho. Where does it end? Good question. But if we don't answer this act of terrorism against our nation strongly, it will only be the first of many.
It may be the first of many anyway but we have to do something. If we let it slide...

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:55 AM

I am absolutely reeling, shocked, horrified, upset and stunned by the news that hit our computer and television screens at work here in Wales.

We all stopped working and gathered round the teles in silence, all of us shocked. None of us could take in the size, and carnage of the days happenings

The first thing I did, was to phone my friend in Washington to make sure that she and hers are all ok. Thankfully they all are, but my heart goes out to all those who have lost their loved ones or still have no news of their friends and family.

I was meant to be planning to travel out to Washingtion to see my close friend, though at the moment we (my friend and I) are suspending all plans of travel, until the situation becomes more clear. But right now both my friend and I want to go see our best friend just in the flesh and give her a big hug.

I'm so sorry that this kind of terrible tragedy happened. It makes me physically sick, unhappy and angry, I just hope that things can be done for those trapped, and that all those who have lost family and friends can count on the support of their friends and family around them.

With Regards

Ellax


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Jelly bean
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:19 AM

It's all been said but just wanted to say my thoughts are with you all - words cannot express the shock and horror I feel at the events of yesterday.I keep seeing the footage on TV it's like something you would see on a movie - but this is real!! My heart goes out to the victims and their families. Kind regards Ann


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: mooman
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:22 AM

As the true horror unfolded yesterday we were in tears and speechless at the inhumanity and barbarity of these acts and the turmoil and suffering they have wreaked. Patricia and my thoughts are with you all in the US and especially for the victims and their families. Those responsible and those who support them must swiftly be brought to justice but for now our thoughts are especially with the rescue efforts.

Richard (mooman)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:44 AM

No words.br> But I have to type to post 'No words'. In Germany, many thousands have gone to the American embassies have laid down flowers or lit candles and walked away with in silence.
I join them. Everything else I have I give you, but

no words. Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:53 AM

Many experts were pontificating yesterday on who, why and other aspects. One person reckoned that it would be child's play to steer the aircraft at the target once you had it in sight. One of the things which made me so angry was the sight of so many Palestinians "celebrating." Bin Laden if it was him doesn't give a tinker's curse about the Palestinians. He has got his own madness and hatred of the West to sustain him. A comment in the Guardian this morning about suicide. According to an Islamic religious leader when asked if Islam endorsed suicide. He said and I quote. "I'll tell you what the Prophet said. That if a person commits suicide, then in the hereafter that person will be in the hell-fire committing that suicide over and over again. For instance, if a person jumped off a tall building, his punishment in the hell-fire would be to relive that over and over again. He will go to a tall building and jump off, and go back to the top and jump off again. For all eternity. So suicide is frowned upon completely in Islam because it represents an act of lack of faith. Unquote. So much for the paradise promised by the fanatics who encourage their followers to do the unspeakable. I'll bet you won't see Bin Laden strapping explosives to his evil self.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM

Hi folks. Wars against terrorism can't be won. There is no nation to surrender, and no land to "hit with surgical strikes" so nations respond to terror with terror. No end. Pray for peace, but more important WORK for peace.
Larry and Genie from Downtown New York City.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:03 AM

say, Hurricane, maybe I misunderstood, but you said you were not allowed to use your real name on Mudcat? Please explain. I've always used mine.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:10 AM

The night before these disgusting acts I was watching the Discovery channel here in the UK. There was an interesting programme on about the world's highest buildings. They had some very proud guy on saying that the World Trade centre was designed to withstand the direct impact of a Boeing 707, the biggest airliner when it was being designed. Whatever anyone tells you about how safe things are, don't believe a word of it; no-one really has a bloody clue! My deepest sympathy goes to everyone affected by this.

Ray


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Trevor
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:10 AM

I haven't read through all the other threads. I don't know how to describe the horror and sadness Helen and I are feeling at the moment. I want to express sympathy and solidarity but I don't have the vocabulary to do it. I've been on the receiving end of a terrorist attack, in Birmingham in 1974, and the world becomes a different place. I don't give a shit about the whys and wherefores - it just hurts. God bless, whichever your god is.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: English Jon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:21 AM

Just read through the entire thread again. Can't believe it. From the U.K. news, it seems Bin Laden is by far the most likely culprit. What is the military position of the U.S? Some 'catters have spoken of WAR, has a state of war actually been declared? Do we know anything further about the bombing of Kabul? The news here says that the Pentagon is still operational - is this true? There are a lot of astonishingly brave people out there who are behaving entirely selflessly to sort this mess out. Thoughts and prayers to all.

Jon Loomes


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:43 AM

The Pentagon is still operating. The military isn't saying whether or not they have any concrete evidence that Bin Laden is the one responsible, so they're not giving any definitive statements on their position. They say they want to find out who is responsible, and hold them accountable. As of when I turned off the news at 5:00 AM EDT, there was no declaration of war on anyone.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: English Jon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:47 AM

Thanks Carol.

EJ


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

The BBC are now broadcasting as yet unconfirmed reports, that there were 8 hi-jacked planes, 4 of witch were shot down by the US Air Force.
We have enquired about donating blood for use in America, it appears that USA does not accept Brittish blood, this is because of the risk of BSE (Mad cow disease) contamination.We were told this by local hospital (Hull Royal Infirmary).
I know it is of very little real help, but we are all thinking of you.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM

Hi John, just spoke to friends in England, and let all know, that you are thinking of us is great help in deed. All the best Larry, from Downtown New York


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:06 AM

Woke up this morning and it was a few moments before I remembered about all this. It's as if we're holding our breath, waiting to see what happens next, and knowing it won't be anything good.

"Not all Muslims are good Muslims". And not all Christians are good Christians, and not all Jews are good Jews, and so what? "The only good Injun..."?

I can't see that the mindset of the people who did this terrible thing is all that different and alien. It seems to be made up of two components which are all too readily available..

The first component is the willingness to kill. A conviction that vengeance in the face of terrible injustice is just, and that, once it is war, any way of striking at the enemy is permissible - we've seen that expressed in these threads, time and time again. And even those who reject it have no difficulty in understanding it.

And the second components is a willingness to die for what we believe in.And is there anything unfamiliar about that in any of our cultures. Hunger strikers in Ireland - "Remember the Alamo" - Masada. What's so different?

And what's the big difference between "Jihad" and "Crusade"? (And I'm sure that there's an equivalent term in other cultures).

This isn't something alien and strange and incomprehensible. It's not Space Invaders. It's people with the same kind of motives as the rest of us and capable of doing appalling things, and of justifying them to ourselves.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: KitKat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

To all catters

I am so sorry for your loss and appalling tragedy. Everyone I've spoken to in the UK feels that we are all now under attack in the Western world and that things will never be the same again. It's hard to see where we can go from here.

Pat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,from skarpi Iceland.
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:42 AM

Hello all, as I told all last night we had preyer time in most Icelandic churches and today as this is written My nation flag has taken down to half in all Iceland. I will come again later, All the best skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:51 AM

To all my dear friends over there. I have been visiting America for nigh on thirty years now. I have, without fail, been met with friendship, hospitality, and unstinting kindness. I have grown to love your country and to regard it as my home away from home. Right now I am in shock as I see the pictures of the barbarity that has been wrought upon you. My thoughts, and those of my wife, are with you at this awful time. May the injured recover. May the dead rest in peace. May the bereaved families find some small measure of comfort. May the evildoers be found and punished. God Bless America. ROY and Elaine Harris.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Jingle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:05 AM

Am shocked more than I can say by this act of utter wickedness. I hope with all my heart that those of you waiting to hear from loved ones will get the news you are hoping for. I hear on the local news this lunchtime in Yorkshire that our rescue services are mobilising ready to fly out to help. This is a tiny island but we will give you whatever help we can. My heart and mind are full of thoughts for you. Peace and music go together, violence has no place here.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:11 AM

No state of war has been declared here. One exists, but we can't declare it because the enemy failed to leave his card.

Re suicide and the Prophet's words, I don't believe the data is applicable. These people think of themselves as soldiers dying for the glory of God. Doesn't qualify as suicide but as an act of religous war.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM

FWIW, I want to apologize for any offensive posts yesterday.

I was not fully rational.

I realize that that implies that I am fully rational today. But that's a matter of degree, I guess...

Peter.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

If this attack originated outside the country in which it was carried out, it WAS an act of war whether we chose to call it that or not.

Retaliation is not an answer, it merely heightens the justification already felt by the perpetrators.

We need to see MORE footage of the dancing in the "enemy" streets. People outside of that world need to understand what Americans represent to those in that world. That is what needs to be addressed, how America is perceived, not how we are. Let's not change what we do - eliminate the personal liberties that allowed this to happen, start a complete war, or do anything else with our hindbrain and other body parts rather than our intelligence. Dubya, I'm talking to you!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:34 AM

You're a good guy, Peter (Midchuck). Everybody's been right out of it the past 24 hours.

I think North America woke up with post-traumatic stress, just beginning. Going to start another thread.

If there's anything that can be done...the focus should be on helping people right now.

Bill.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:37 AM

I've been reading all of this and I understand the logic behind the comments that you can't win a war with terrorism, and the children celebrating are just puppets and only think it's a party, and we need to think about the innocent people etc. etc. etc. My question to all of you is what exactly IS the solution?? If Bin Laden is the culprit, and we find him, do we jail him? Kill him? If so will the people left behind be frightened by this? I think not. Will they retaliate? Definitely. This needs to be dealt with in a way that the people responsible can understand. The ability to organize and execute an act like this needs to be eliminated. It will not be pretty. More lives will be lost. But there is no reasoning with someone who wants you dead, is willing to kill you and who thinks it a badge of honor to die trying. To not strike back to me would mean that yesterday's loss of life was in vain and worse, it would mean that it could happen again. To allow that would be not only tragic but just plain stupid......

Frank


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Subject: Joy Bennett checks in OK for JGirls & friends
From: GUEST,lynnoel@att.net
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:53 AM

this just in from Joy:

Hi Lynn and all

- hope to finish this before the provider disconnects in the middle for the third time. I haven't have email access till today and not through my regular provider. Thanks so much for your kind thoughts. I am fine and was in Brooklyn when the tragedy occurred. The devastation is unimaginable.

The rest of Johnson Girls and families are fine as well, though shaken. Alison's friend Darren worked on the 102nd floor of WTC and we haven't heard from him as yet (but hoping he's safe, but not able to get through), so she's not in a good place mentally. - Her brother Brad and friend Dan are with her. Please pray for Darren and the rest of the still yet anaccounted for.

Other NYC chantey folk who have benn in contact and are fine are:David Kleiman, Ellen Weiss, Dan Milner, Jan Christensen, Frank Woerner, Matt Bram. I will update as emails come in and I have service.

I managed to make it home with one of my co-workers and we picked up 3 hitchhikers on the way, our small contribution to the cause. My friend marsha and I will try to give blood today. The blood banks were overwhelmed yesterday by all the people wanting to help.

Still waiting to hear from some friends and colleagues who worked in the WTC. Some have called me safe at home, others no word as yet. A feeling of helplessness is all over right now.

One thing -- people say many things about NYC and New Yorkers, but in a crisis and in a pinch, the people of this city band together to help one another. It is truly an amazing place.

Hope you are well.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:56 AM

Yesterday evening Rebecca and I went to Martin's Point in Portland to have a picnic supper before I went to Roll & Go rehearsal. We watched the bay shimmer under blue skies, two sailboats enjoying the late afternoon, wavelets lapping the rocks, and thought of what was happening in New York. It was hard to believe the suffering that was going on as we enjoyed the peaceful scene and each other's company.

As I said yesterday I cannot condone any violence being used as retribution for what happened yesterday. The deaths of Afghanis canot bring back the dead in New York. The shattered lives of the innocent victims cannot be rebuilt by dropping bombs on the guilty.

There may be some measure of satisfaction in flexing our enormous muscles but does that do any real good? Does the bully feel any better even when his attack is justified? Can our unilateral action be better than the concentrated action of a group of allies?

Let justice prevail, not revenge. Let time pass so calm and rational minds can identify the guilty parties and work with our allies to bring them to the justice they deserve. Their deaths under a rain of US bombs will make them martyrs to the cause. Their jail time will not.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM

As a Canadian, I grieve for our friends and allies in the United States of America--for the dead and injured, and for their families, and for all American Mudcatters who must surely feeled grief and anger today.

Where my wife works, in Ottawa in a Canadian government office, there is a young man who is working with her as a trainee. He is a young palestinian whose wife just had their first child. My wife organized a baby shower for them, with office workers attending.

Issam was very proud to become Canadian; he grew up in refugee camps as a person without a country. His family is proud of him too; he is the first one in the family since 1948 to become a citizen. I can't imagine what it's like to be stateless.

I hope and pray that he along with other innocent Muslims will not become targets of this anger that has engulfed us all.

My thoughts and prayers are with Americans today. We grieve with you.

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

I know that anyone can do an Internet search on terrorism and find information, but I sometimes prefer to use links that have already been tested and recommended by someone I know and respect.

Here is a links page from Robin Higgins who is one of the most articulate and eloquent persons I know. She has devoted much of her life the last 12 years to learning about terrorism, after her husband was murdered by terrorists. http://www.higginspage.com/hot.htm

I also just learned that my other friend is safe...sigh.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Their Jail time will not? I disagree. The second plane crashed 18 minutes after the first, plenty of time for news agencies to be set up, cameras on, for the world to see the second plane. I think intentional. Will the media blitz be on for the arrest and trial of the ones responsible? Absolutely, and then they have a world stage to play on!! How many more lives are WE willing to sacrifice by allowing "cooler heads" to prevail?!? How many parents will have to get a cell phone call from their son or daughter telling them that they have been hi-jacked and are going to die?!? There is a time for reason, I agree. I just don't think this is one of them. Yeah, we need to be careful and sure in determining who was responsible, but once we are sure, we need to be strong and precise and complete.

Frank


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

Larry, There you are! :-)

Add to the list of images I will never forget as long as I live - that plane slicing through the tower like a knife through butter.

Whenever there's a disaster, people always say, It's like a war zone. Most of the time it's NOT like a war zone, it's like a demolished building. This time, it's like a war zone. Rubble and chaos in the streets. Field hospitals. Gotta find out who we can save and who we can't. People searching frantically for loved ones and friends. It's like a war zone all right.

I hope we don't see any more of them.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

I have mostly spent the last 24 hours in silence, prayer, meditation, inner reflection. I have read all 5 of these threads and heard some good thoughts here from many of my friends.

I regard any violent act, whether committed by a government, a hidden group, or an individual...as TERRORISM. If you deliberately terrorize people, you are committing terrorism.

I don't support it. Nor do I support revengeful acts of counter-terrorism against anyone, and they will not help.

Addressing the original huge inequities and problems in the world that have led to existing conflicts would help, but it would require much more patience, generosity of spirit, and courage, and wisdom than is required to drop bombs on people or fly airplanes into buildings.

My thoughts are with the victims of terrorism and their loved ones...in New York, in Washington, in Lebanon, in Israel, in the West Bank, in Gaza, in the Balkans, in any place where people have forgotten that the other person is made of the same essential stuff as themselves...and with essentially the same original hopes and dreams. Those hopes and dreams have been blighted and twisted by our inequities and our blindness, our inability to see the face of God in each other person whom we meet, our inability to share the bounties of the Earth in an equal fashion, our forgetfullness of our human responsiblity to behave as equals with mercy toward all.

I am very sorry that these things have happened. I hope for something better.

- LH


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Subject: RE: What IS the Solution?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

To understand what a solution would be, you would have to understand the problem.

The problem is not that some bunch of people thinks of us as an enemy. I would have danced in the street the day the USSR collapsed, having grown up with the faint threat in the back of my mind that I could be wiped out by a Russian missle.

The line of thinking that identifies their celebration as the problem -- the fact that the "United States" is perceived as an enemy for helping the Israelis, with anti-Palestinaian consequences -- leads to a solution of "everybody in the human race in communication andf agreement".

Nice idea. On more practical grounds, the simple and immediate statement of the problem is "US attacked in an act of war". Well, that's a fact, not a problem. The problem is we have an enemy without a face.

The problem of having an enemy cannot be properly posed unless you know who it is. If Osama bin Laden or the moguls of Kabul are the enemy, we have one problem.

If the Japanese Red Army is the enemy we have another one.

Assuming it is the former, the hard truth is that if you are facing a group dedicated to your extinction, and you wish to survive the only "solution" is the complete dissolution of that group, disbandment of its members, extinction of its "group" identitiy, mission, and group existence. . If this could be acheived through administration, management, or communication it would be wonderful. I doubt it is possible. I believe that the disbandment of this hypothetical group will only occur when the core of people generating it have been dissuaded by force. This may mean individual force.

I do not think it is useful to call for "revenge" or "make 'em pay". But it is imperative for our national survival that we ensure the dissolution of any group exercising this kind of warmaking against us. Not for moral or retributive reasons. For survival.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

Not to detract from the appalling tragedy that has occurred, or to diminish the grieving and suffering of those that have been affected by this heinous act...but from the stance of political fallout, looking ahead to the not-too-distant future: any opposition from congressional members to President Bush's defense proposals has, by now, crumbled like the Towers. After yesterday, to oppose any sort of defense spending increases, especially in the area of intelligence gathering, would be political suicide. No doubt Bush's handlers have already made the President aware of this, and in the ensuing weeks Bush will invoke this tragedy advantageously to bolster his political agenda. It would not be surprising to expect an avalanche of jingoistic rhetoric to follow soon from the White House and Capitol Hill.

Big Brother agencies, like the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency, will probably get a huge financial shot in the arm as a result of yesterday's tragedy. While budget increases to these agencies may reduce the probability of terrorist acts like the ones that occurred yesterday against the United States, the temptation nevertheless, will be to compromise what little is left of the average citizen's privacy.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:53 AM

I don't think I have aby words to describe my feelings on waht has happend over the last 24 hours or so.

It is totally unimaginable that any living thing could do this. All that goes through my mind is what kind of lowlife souless THING could have done this.

It is undescribable the feelings that go through you when one so close gets murdered in any shape or form as I experienced a year ago. But to brutally murder thousands of innocents intentionally...Ijust can't even imagine.

All I have done since this has happend is think of the poor souls who have died or who haven't been found yet and of those families who are hoping and praying for this terror to end and their loved ones to phone home safe and well.

I went to a session last night to try and take my mind off of this monstrosity, but my heart wasn't in the music or in anyone elses and I could quite happily have just sat and cried forever.....

today I had to go to work and wish I didn't. I did not sleep one bit last night, just meditated and prayed and hoped.....

I will be doing the same when I get home from this internet cafe.

I will be attending the jug tonight, but only to say goodbye to a dear friend who leaves for university on friday and to find comfort in the other mudcatters there.

PEace and love to everybody involved in this terror.

If anybody would like someone to talk to pm me and I will try to help you as much as possible.

Blessed be

The gods/goddesses are watching over us all, whomever yours may be.

E xxx


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM

This is the first time I've had internet access since yesterday. It was frustrating and frightening not knowing how the people we interact with everyday are doing. We watched the events unfold in horror, hardly believing what we saw. I have family in NYC, and fortunately they are safe and were able to contact us. My uncle was there; he saw it happen. We are so thankful that he wasn't hurt.

Everything has altered in the world today. My thoughts are with the American 'Catters. Take care.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:11 AM

I saw the clip of Palistinians "Dancing in the street". What I saw was a small knot of people mugging for the camera. Most of them too young to know what they were doing. As Barney Miller would say, "Let's keep it in perspective."

Can someone explain to me why the Empire State bld. didn't collaps when that bomber hit it during WW2?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:17 AM

Thanks. Through these hours I've been touched by your humanity,tempted by your anger, and cheered by the reporting in of Catters who made it through, but most importantly because of you I have not been alone. "I have a rendezvous with death", said Alan Seeger, and so have we all. Still, time passes. In the long view, this is not new stuff. Pax tecum, y'all.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:31 AM

"All I can say is give peace a chance."


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

kendall - as far as I know that was a B25 - smaller plane, probably less fuel on board, and the Empire State building has a completely different structure.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM

It was announced today that the hijackers who took the boston planes traveled left for Boston from the Portland (Maine) Jetport. They left a rental car that contained Arabic language documents and other evidence. Also one of the bags checked by the hijackers did not get on to the plane and is said to contain a copy of the Koran.

Please note these terrorists obviously believed they were headed for heaven as the result of their actions. This points to the easy manipulation of the word of God by religious leaders. We must be cautious.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Excerpts from a discussion on the architectures involved FWIW, kendall:

Very tall buildings are hard to build, not only for the obvious strength and safety reasons, but also because needed services (i.e. elevators, plumbing, wiring, stairs, air-conditioning ducts) require increasing amounts of overhead as the building gets taller. In addition to bigger beams and columns, tall buildings need more elevators, bigger pipes, etc. than short campus-style buildings. As building height increases, these overhead items grow faster more quickly than the usable floor space, making very tall buildings hard to justify economically. Making very tall buildings make business sense requires a significant architectural and engineering effort.

The World Trade Centers existed because of their architecture and the supporting engineering. Unlike other skyscrapers, the exterior walls of the World Trade Centers were load bearing. [See for a brief discussion]. The whole building was a vertical truss, and the interior was column free. Without this design, it is unlikely that the WTC could have been built on that site. The architecture enabled the existence of the building.

As we saw in the painful to watch news footage of September 11, 2001, when the load bearing walls were damaged, the whole structure became unstable and collapsed.

Simply telling the engineers to make the building stronger is not a viable answer. Of course they could make it stronger, add redundancy, or both. But at the cost not only of the material and labor to add the strength, but at the cost of substantially increasing the overhead of the building itself. If the building's internal overhead becomes larger, the economics of the project quickly disappear. There are hard numbers of dollars behind the decisions not to build buildings bigger than the Empire State Building up until the WTC towers, and if the WTC architecture is not feasible or acceptable, then the density it enables will not be possible.

The implications for the city are huge. Successful public transportation requires that large numbers of commuters go to the same place at about the same time. Similarly, the density of people is what enables the wonderful shops, markets, theaters and clubs of New York. The lack of density is a direct cause of the decline in quality of life.

The attacks on the World Trade Centers caused a horrible loss of individual human lives today, and there is a significant chance it will cause a significant loss of life of the city in the future.

***********

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:25:30 -0700 From: John Young

The '45 Empire State Building crash is oft studied in architectural and structural engineering to learn why the building withstood the hit. The plane was a B-24, I believe, but in any case a much smaller craft than the ones which hit the WTC and the Pentagon. The '45 plane's engines did penetrate the building, shooting out the far side and falling to the ground and killing passersby, but most of the plane remained inside the structure for it was made of far more fragile materials than a building. A relative small amount of damage was done to the structure of the building though fire was devastating, especially from flaming gasoline cascading inside.

The fireball that shot from the second WTC tower hit, opposite where the jetliner penetrated, blew out windows and perhaps part of the latticework exterior structure. Flaming fuel probably cascaded down the shafts of elevators and ductwork and stairwells whose fire-protection enclosures would have been destroyed by the explosive crash and ballistic heavy plane parts. These fuel flames, and fires started from them, would have weakened interior structural support beyond protection provided by code-required fireproofing. Once the interior structural supports were weakened, and the exterior lattice lost its integrity collapse was inevitable.

I modify my first evaluation to speculate that the interior supports appear to have given way before the exterior lattice (whose girdle of closely-space columns and thin vertical windows between gave the buildings a unique look compared to use of large panes of glass elswhere) The lattice amazingly contained the interior collapse and the whole mess dropped vertically, almost, as newscasters report, as if executed by a demo expert.

I did not expect the Twin Towers to collapse. To suffer terrible fires and localized interior damage but not total collapse. The first was unbelievable, and as I said, I thought only the portion above the crash fell. Then the smoke cleared momentarily to show the totality. Then the second tower, collapsing in a near-perfect copy of the first. The sudden dropping of the floors above the crash, that impacting load overpowering the remaining system, and the straight drop collapse, neither tower falling much to the side, indicated what had happened.

Close-ups of the exterior show the latticework bridging the crash penetrations, reminding of sales pitches from the 19th Century when cast-iron manufacturers promoted their architecture with structural compoments missing with no apparent destabilization -- the load automatically shifting to remaining components. Their prognostications failed at the first intense fire which overheated and cracked the cast iron, sometimes collapsing more quickly than predecessor masonry bearing wall and wood floor system composites.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM

It is totally unimaginable that any living thing could do this.

I find it unimaginable too. But for all that, there is nothing unusual in it. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Dresden. Hamburg. And the list could go on a lot longer, and it is all that likely to get longer still.

All we need is to believe that this is something that we need to do and are entitled to do as a way of balancing some atrocity that "we" remember and "they" ignore. And that is the way a lot of people seem to be thinking today in the wake of yesterday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

Brett (Naemanson), good to hear from you, and you're taking a very level-headed view of these terrible events. Your point about going-to-Allah's-garden has been made many many times.

There were two stashes of these incriminating materials found, so far: one in the rental car, and another in the checked-in bag that didn't go on the doomed plane with its apparent owner.

We should bear in mind that these were so obviously planted, so that they could be found and their contents would tell a story, that we must ask what the motivation for leaving this evidence was.

It could have been to tell the world that this was "propaganda of the deed" by Moslems.

Maybe it was. But if it wasn't, it sure is a good way of putting all the suspicion on the Arabs, and shifting it away from someone else.

Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST, I, hurricane (on a different computer)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

Bush used the term "war" in his speech today which he didn't do yesterday. Reporters hit him with that Act passed in the Reagan years about going to Congress for any Act of War, and he didn't respond. I don't know if there is any legally recognized way to use the term war where another nation state is not involved.

kendall: I meant I couldn't use my real name Dan or Danny and I didn't even bother to try DannyBoy. I could have used a string of numbers, I guess, but that's no fun.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 PM

Hi Willie-O,

Yeah, that is one thing we have to keep in mind. We cannot jump to the conclusion that any one group has done this. Evidence can be planted, claims can be made, and the wrong people get the wrong idea. One group develops plans for vengeance and another group celebrates. Both could be wrong!

Let's keep a clear head and wait for the evidence.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Airto
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:18 PM

I am completely shocked by what has happened. My brother from Dublin was somewhere in Manhattan yesterday and I was so relieved to hear he is OK. Countless others, from all over the world, are not so fortunate.

My thoughts are with everybody caught up in this terrible atrocity, and I'm keeping fingers crossed for all of those who call in here, for their loved ones and friends.

Meanwhile, let the voices of reason prevail. Yes to strategic action to stop terrorism. No to blunt acts of revenge.

My impression of atrocities in Ireland is that the victims and those closest to them generally aren't the ones who call for vengeance. They know too much about the consequences to ever visit them on others.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM

Could it be that these "incriminating materials" might have belonged to a Muslim victim on one of the planes? Or have they now identified the hijackers and their cars?
---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

There's a chain of circumstantial evidence developing. The materials found included:
  • a Koran
  • a flight-training video for commercial airliners
  • a fuel-loading chart for airliners.

Could be:

  1. "Moslem" terrorists who wanted to fly a plane and were interested in the fuel loading factors
  2. Someone who wanted the above to be suspected
  3. a coincidence, somebody studying to be an airline pilot.

    Except, and I hate to mention this, the car was found from information from someone who remembered seeing and having words with 5 "Arab" men in a parking garage. Once again, its CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence.

    Remember "John Doe #2" in OK City? The swarthy fellow whose only problem as a suspect or witness was that he seemed not to actually exist...despite being the most wanted man in the world for a few days, in the media.

    The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

    Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

Someone mentioned that now opposition to all of Bush's proposals for greater defense expenditures would "collapse like the Twin Towers". Aside from the obviously distasteful comparison, I think the indication is contrary to Bush's security linch-pin : The Starwars System. If anything, this event showed how vulnerable we are to the new form of terrorist attack, one which Starwars would have done nothing to prevent. I certainly support increased security expenditure, but put it where it will do some good, not into some Maginot Line designed to fight a war of the past century.

It seems more and more that Bin Laden was involved. I believe he will be located and , I hope, executed. I don't want to see a prolonged trial with its potential for "Free Bin Laden" demonstrations and attacks. I am under no illusion that killing him will end this. We are entering a new phase of this war, but it is a war that has been going on for some time already. There will be retaliation against the perpetrators, but new villains will arise in his place, true believers in the sanctity of his cause. I believe that most renegade nations such as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran will bow down before the wrath of the US, but the Terrorist Organizations themselves will gain strength and martyrs, and will only become more covert in their relationships with these governments.

Apparently Bin Laden's primary issue with us is the continuing presence of American troops in the Middle East after the end of the Persian War, a presence that serves to protect the more moderate governments, such as Saudi Arabia, who welcome our presence there. As such, our troops prevent the ascendence of additional Islamic Extremist governments, which is Bin Laden's actual goal. There is also no doubt but that oil is at the crux of our national interest in the area. The Saudis can be counted on to keep the spigots open, while Islamic fundamentalists would have no compunction about shutting off supply to achieve political ends.

What are our options? We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

One thing is sure : It took years of tangled-web weaving to get to this point, and no surgical strike or other quick solution will grant anything but short-term gratification.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

>>>The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

Bill <<<<

Whoa, they sure do. Are we to believe those guys were watching and learning from the video on their way to the airport?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: bet
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

As I planned for my day at school thinking that I should do something special for the day the only thing that came to mind was sing patriotic songs. Our children are to young to truely understand it all but we have some great songs. How our lives will be changed. It is comforting to know that we have friends around the world sharing in our greif and disbelief. Stay safe all! bet


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

News: Police FBI agents are searching on the 16th or 17th floor of the Westin-Copley (sp?) Hotel in the Back Bay area of Boston, Massachusetts. A SWAT team entered the hotel about 15 minutes ago, heavily armed with bulletproof vests on, with shields up. Rumors of a bomb inside, but building has not been evacuated.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

Hurricane: that''s my point. These items were left there as a message, not because they were in use until they were left behind. (unless its an unlikely coincidence, the least likely explanation). Who actually left them, and why, is anyone's guess right now.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

1 suspect has been arrested at The Westin Hotel according to CNN, it is said the suspect has POSSIBLE links to Bin Ladin. Fox News & CNN are covering this now.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Just one thing to be thankful for, and that is that this thing didn't happen at the height of the Cold War. Nobody is going to be taking reprisals against people with a massive nuclear arsenal.

The assumption that this is a huge conspiracy involving governments and all that just isn't necessarily true. All it needed was a bunch of people willing to die, and ready to kill as many people as required, together with the kind of information about flights and aeroplanes and so forth that any of us with Internet access could get together within a few hours if we really had to.

Plus the knowledge that there was a virtually non-existent security system for internal flights in the USA.

The key component being the first - the bunch of people willing to die and kill. If the response to this is the kind of response that some people are predicting, the effect will be to create a whole lot more of that component.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

The bag was checked was it not? If it was checked and was intentionally not put on the plane then you have a bagage handler, or other airline employee as an acomplice. Or was it just a case of airline screw-up?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

News: One suspect in custody at the Boston hotel. One officer reported wounded.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Just to keep the incidental information tidy, the plane that hit the Empire State Building was a B-25 Mitchell bomber, the same type that bombed Tokyo during WWII. Twin engines and small enough to take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier. The twin towers of the WTC were built to withstand being hit by a 707 (they hoped), which, I believe, was the largest airliner at the time.

Don (just bein' picky and pedantic) Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:53 PM

This appeared on a news feed, 6.41 British time:

Police in America tonight made the first arrests in the investigation into the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.

Several people were held at gunpoint in a hotel in Boston, the city from which the two hijacked flights which slammed into the World Trade Centre in New York, killing thousands, left.

And more people were taken into custody in southern Florida, where FBI agents and local police were concentrating their efforts on flying schools with flight simulators and were said to be "very interested" in one student at Huffmann Aviation School in the state.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Regarding our potential retaliation:

The President has called the terrorists a group of people who have no regard for human life. If we respond with a massive attack are we not doing the same thing without regard for human life?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

Anyone who has played even the simplest of Flight Simulator games knows how much can be learned from a computer program for just a few bucks.....Something maybe LIKE THIS for a start............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

Kendall! I just heard that they are calling for the reinstitution of the Sky Marshall program. It's probably the most useful thing they could have done.

You know, a friend pointed out last night that GWB called the attack an act of terrorism BEFORE the second plane hit the WTC! How did he know?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM

7.10pm English time. BBC reports that Saddam Hussein has said that America is "reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

- IanB


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM

Naemanson,
The time to prevent the NEXT incident is now. The goal should not be the destruction of human life but to eliminate the ability to carry out another attack. I believe lives will be lost but even those lives will be lost in vain if retaliation is not swift, presise and complete.

You're right, the loss of ANY life is horrific, but to stand idly by and allow this type of horrer to happen again is irresponsible.

Frank


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

They just announced the ESTIMATED death toll in New York is 40,000!

What a terrible thing to hear! The hospitals in New York are not being overcrowded. The doctors are waiting and no influx of casualties is arriving.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

>>>"reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

IanB <<<<

One of Dana Carvey's best was when he did an imitation of George Bush talking to Hussein in "language he could understand." Full of ridiculous images: "I am a growling Tiger and you are a slithering snake in the desert," or something.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:21 PM

After yesterday's stunning events, I've been amazed at the warm and thought-provoking contents of these threads. While I couldn't access the news web sites yesterday -- I assume they were overloaded -- I found much more pertinent info here.

I was about to ask what Bin Laden's "beef" with the U.S. was, but see that Lonesome EJ has answered that -- although, as has been pointed out here often, it's still a question of "if" it was him.

Beyond that, if Bin Laden is a millionaire, what is his money in ? Wouldn't destroying the Trade Center affect some of his wealth ? Or maybe not.

It's also been interesting to me to see how the media has covered this. TV is/was hands down the most immediate - in terms of the visual. But as several people have pointed out, their substantive material is, as always, suspect. I couldn't help thinking that it was these same talking heads who authoritatively pronounced Gore the winner, until quite late, in the Presidential election.

Radio, to me, was mostly useless. Harried announcers describing plumes of smoke just didn't handle it. Once in a while there was an interesting interview with a terrorism expert, but... mostly useless.

Even more useless, our local newspaper decided to put out an afternoon edition, of material that was several hours old, and mostly saying nothing. And to make it more obvious how far behind they were, they advertised it with a bottom "banner crawl" on the local TV station. They are so old fashioned in their thinking, it's hopeless !!!

And, as mentioned above, while I thought the news web sites would be the most informative, I couldn't get on. But then I looked here at Mudcat, and found much more thoughtful commentary than most professional media outlets were offering. I love this place !!!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

It seems some folks took offense at my post yesterday. I meant no offense. Now. Consider this - Wars are won by a couple of distinct ways.

First, you destroy the opposition military and its capability to make war - the non-jargon translation is, "Kill the enemy army." Americans - see the state of the Confederate Army by April, 1865.

Another option is to destroy the opposition "will to combat", their eagerness to fight. Damaging this is not enough, it leaves the chance that it will be revived. The Yanks did this to Japan at the end of WWII, AFTER seriously weakening the military. The shock value on the population and the rank-and-file military (and the emperor) of two cities destroyed by two bombs undercut the jingoism of the military high command. The concept of bushido simply does not stand to an opponent you can not touch.

A variant of this was what happened to Germany and Russia in WWI - neither could continue because of social breakdow directly related to the war.

This is also precisely how irregular forces defeat conventional military forces - resisting and avoiding pitched battles unless victory is certain, hit and run tactics - as were seen in Ireland 1920-21, Indo-China in the '50's, Viet Nam with the Yanks and, more recently, Sudan. When political concerns limit the ability of the military to conduct operations, the military will lose. Period.

To defeat irregular forces, which is the way that most "terrorists" see themselves, conventional forces must know what the rules are. Since the government of the conventional forces usually set the rules, and are influenced by the public opinion at home and abroad, most irregulars simply use the same rules against them.

The most common way is to hide in a sympathetic nation-state, whose national sovereignty prevents another nation-state from invading. They will use civillians as shields and protest bombings as murdering civillians. (Consider that schools and hospitals were flattened according to Japanese and German news reports from 1939-45, but military installations were undamaged.)

Mr. Bush's speech last night set out in very strong diplomatic language that there would be counter-strikes. These strikes are not limited to the issues of nation-states (which would mean war) but also to the group immediately responsible for the actions and any group or nation-state that supports, protects or shelters them. Thus, if a nation-state initiated this, we will make war on that state. If a nation-state shelters those who did this, we will make war on them as well.

Now, this is not new. It has long been the view of most nations that weapons respond to weapons. Attacks are responded to by like attacks.

The attack yesterday was on the US Military infrastructure, and the US and international financial systems. Thus, while the attack was directed at the US and involved Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and any other nation which had corporations with offices in the WTC. This attack was intended to strike both a symbol, and the actual fact, of international trade and the world economy.

To let this stand unanswered is to let the concept of democratic government be abandoned and let the war-lords have their way. THIS is why you'll see much diplomatic activity in the near future.

Finally, Islam is based on love. The Pillars of Islam include charity and compassion. It is not Muslims in general who made this attack, but people of the same ilk who kill people of one Christian sect because they belong to another sect. Jihad is meant to spread the faith, not slaughter non-combatants, no matter what fanatics say. When Hammas condemns the attack as cowardly, that carries far more weight than George Bush in some circles.

When retribution comes (not if) it will be swift and terrible.

I wish it could be different, that talking would fix everything. The fact is, some folks simply will not talk.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Les, not only do I agree with you, but it reflects something I've been thinking for 24 hours or so, but didn't want to post for fear of being thought... oh, I don't know what, perhaps trivialising the situation.

In times of previous tragedies, people would congregate in certain places... village squares, churches, and so on. And now, what's the equivalent? I haven't a clue why I logged into Mudcat 24 hours ago, and stuck here virtually constantly ever since... I'm not clever enough to understand the sociology of it, but it has served a variety of quite remarkable services, from information, to support, to philosophy...

Oh, you know what I mean, don't you? Thanks, Mudcat. - Ian B


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,CHP
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM

Folks,

I doubt that U.S. retaliation would involve anything on the scale of New York as it pertains to civilians. However, any attempt to make amends is going to be a messy business. Bombing military or strategic targets is inevitably going to result in "collateral" damage. Likewise, assasinating or kidnapping those responsible is viewed as violating the sovereignty of the nations that "host" such people. Sanctions aren't a big help because we often catch our so-called allies violating them. I think most people would agree that these people, and the nations that support them, have to be punished. The question is, do we have the stomach for it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Ah Little Hawk - My Brother you speak so well - Peace, Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I cannot conceive of anything more likely to ensure that this sort of thing happens again than massive and ill-directed reprisals, which can be guaranteed to produce large numbers of people willing to die to avenge what the will see as atrocities.

Terror breeds terror. Atrocity brings reprisal brings counter-reprisal, in an escalating spiral.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

LeeJ said, We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

I'd like to think we could do both.

To everyone who is teaching in classrooms today, like my sister "bet", I applaud you and send you good thoughts, energy, and give thanks that you are sustained throughout this difficult day by the support you may find here and by those where you are, esp. working with young children.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Turtle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

Brett, the NPR report I heard said that was a high-end estimate made by the folks who are going to send in emergency response teams. Clearly they have to think about what the worst-case scenario is. Giuliani is still saying a couple of thousand in each building, for a total of 4-6 thousand. So I guess that's the range: 4,000 to 40,000. Quite a range.

Turtle


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Firecat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

I watched the events yesterday with horror, but when I was watching the news today, I saw a heartwarming story amid the chaos that the attacks have obviously caused.

A mum took her two little daughters to find their father, who was in the World Trade Centre at the time of the attacks. A police officer told them to stop, so they did, still not knowing whether the girl's dad was safe or not. About half an hour later, they found him alive and (from what the pictures on TV showed) unhurt.

I was also relieved to hear about the six firemen pulled alive from the wreckage. They had apparently got into a hole, so when the towers collapsed, the rubble caused an air pocket.

Let's hope some more people have escaped like that, but my heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones.

I actually cried when I heard about it, and I went with JeZeBeL to the session last night. It's useful playing bodhran when something like this happens, because you can take all your anger out on the bodhran!

Love, peace, rainbows, stars and butterflies, Firecat. xo*oxo*oxo*ox


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,War Pigs
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

I agree that ill-directed reprisals can cause more harm than good. However, many terrorist attacks are only possible because of overt or tacit support by various nations. If such nations start losing several refineries, airbases, etc. per day, i can just about guarantee you that their resolve will weaken in terms of supporting terrorist organizations.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

Firecat, if that's the same clip we got in Britain, the policeman also said that his own wife was missing.

We have also had a most bizarre report of a situation in which one member of a family is said to have been working in the WTC, and another member of the family was in one of the planes.

Now that does leave you speechless.

- Ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

You need governments maybe if you are going to have to supply your own bombs and war planes and high tech weapons.

But this nightmare didn't need anything more than a roomful of people willing to die and kill, a few knives, and a timetable. The bombs and planes and high tech were there for the taking. A bit like the way viruses work in our bodies.

I'm scared that the people in charge are going to decide what to do, not on the basis of what they can do that minimises the possibility of something like this happening again, but on the basis of finding some action that will look big enough and strong enough to match the enormity of what happened yesterday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Firecat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Ian, it was the same clip as you got in Britain, cos I live in Doncaster, South Yorkshire!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:52 PM

I know Arafat is no prince, but the other parts of this news story are a nice antidote to the images from yesterday os some Palestinians rejoicing. Please read on:

Arafat Donates Blood for U.S. Victims Photos By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Yasser Arafat donated blood Wednesday for the victims of the terror attacks in New York and Washington while other Palestinians held a vigil in Jerusalem in sympathy with the United States. ''God bless them,'' Arafat said as medical staff prepared to draw his blood in Gaza Shifa hospital. Palestinian officials said his donation would be the start of a blood drive for the casualties of Tuesday's attacks.

It was unclear if arrangements had been made to transfer the blood from Gaza and the West Bank to the United States. Thousands of Israelis donated blood Wednesday, health officials said.

Dozens of Palestinian men, women and children gathered in front of the U.S. Consulate in East Jerusalem, lighting candles and placing flowers along its walls.

Some of the placards they carried read: ``Terror is our common enemy'' and ``We are victims too.''

Tuesday, some in the West Bank city of Nablus and Arab East Jerusalem rejoiced publicly after hijacked planes slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi told a news conference the celebrations were ``misguided'' and ``aberrations'' motivated by a feeling among Palestinians that they have been victims of U.S. backing for Israel.

At least 569 Palestinians and 165 Israelis have been killed since a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation began last September after peace talks stalled.

Israel has used U.S.-made weapons, including F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters, in some of the fighting.

HORROR MOVIE

Many Palestinians spent a sleepless night glued to television sets as they followed the developments in New York and Washington.

``I thought I was watching a Hollywood horror movie...I couldn't believe my eyes,'' Mohammad Khaled, 20, a student in Ramallah in the West Bank, told Reuters.

``We the Palestinians are human beings and we don't celebrate when others are mourning,'' 42-year-old housewife Amal Qassem told Reuters from Bethlehem.

``Although Israel hits us every day with American Apache helicopters and uses American weapons to kill our people, we send our condolences to the families of the victims,'' she said.

Arafat condemned the attacks as a ``terrible act'' Tuesday and said he would help track down those responsible if asked by the Americans.

Palestinians have slammed the United States, alleging bias toward Israel in the Middle East conflict. They have burned U.S. flags during the nearly year-old revolt.

TRAGEDY SHOULD NOT BE EXPLOITED

Many who spoke to Reuters Wednesday said they feared Israel would exploit the events in the United States to portray the Arabs and Muslims as ``terrorists.''

Arafat delayed a planned visit to Syria Wednesday in the aftermath of the attacks. Palestinian officials said he put on hold all plans and meetings and his office was monitoring developments with concern.

For some Palestinian officials the attacks dealt a heavy blow to hopes for direct U.S. involvement to end the bloodshed and revive the peace process.

``Of course we have differences with the Americans because America supports Israel but we do not accept this tragedy against the Americans. This is a terrible terrorist act,'' said Nadia Hamadan, 33, from Nablus.

Palestinian analyst Ghassan al-Khatib said the ``human tragedy'' in the United States should not be exploited for political gains by making Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims look like the ``bad guys.''


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Turtle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM

Thanks for posting that, Kat.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

Whatever Arafat is, that gesture shows his best nature. Thanks Kat.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM

Yes, well done in posting it Kat.....Thankyou.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM

I think that most Palestinians, and most Muslims, are horrified at this turn of events. Most people who are HUMAN would be. Seems like every group has a few bad apples that don't do anything but wreak havoc and make everyone else look bad.

I do not think for one second that Arafat had anything at all to do with this. Mister agrees, but adds that Arafat has pretty much lost control with the younger Palestinians because he has tried to play nice, at least part of the time.

The thing that really gripes me is, these people used civilian resources - our own resources - against us. I have heard a lot of comments about "military intelligence not being good enough" ... but these people didn't go through military channels. Who would have been looking at commercial airlines for something like this?

We have a lot of great new technological marvels in the military but it looks to me like we are going to have to go back to fighting the Indians, so to speak. When we white folks were first fighting the Native Americans, we found out real quick that our learned military tactics were no match for guerilla warfare. We may have a great missile defense system, but it ain't going to work against people who aren't firing missiles.

Did anyone see Brokaw's interview with Schwarzkopf last night? They did the interview, then as they were wrapping it up, the General said, I have one more observation I'd like to make. When we were in Desert Storm, we went out of our way, and even endangered the lives of our own people, in order to avoid civilian casualties. And what these bastards have done is deliberately kill our civilians. [and boy was he MAD - you could see it in his face]

And Brokaw said, Well put, General.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Thanks, guys, I wasn't sure how it would be received, but felt it offered some balance to the other images of celebration.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM

Thanks kat

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

Okay.....One last thread maybe? Here's #6

Love you all and thanks for playing......Tell 'em what they won Johnny!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:15 AM

Dammit, McGrath! Comparing Hiroshima to this is ludicrous! That was WWII! You can be damn well glad that the bomb was dropped or else many more Brits, as well as other Allies, including the U. S. would have lost a lot more lives! And how could you, a Brit, object to the the other bombings in WW2, inclucing Dresden? Would you prefer that the national language in Great Britian today be German, insead of English?

This is an act of Terriorism. It could happen to any major city in the world!

And Arafat giving blood! My God, I can't believe you folks are taken in by that!

Well ...yes...I guess I can.

DougR


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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