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Folksingers with phony identities

GUEST 03 Sep 01 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Little Jewford 03 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM
Amos 03 Sep 01 - 04:36 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 03 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM
Liz the Squeak 03 Sep 01 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,AliUK on the works computer 03 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Raggytash 03 Sep 01 - 05:21 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,John Nolan 03 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
Cllr 03 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Hille 03 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM
Mr Red 03 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM
toadfrog 03 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 01 - 07:43 PM
Sorcha 03 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 03 Sep 01 - 08:05 PM
GUEST, Dan 03 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM
Sorcha 03 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM
AliUK 03 Sep 01 - 08:23 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 03 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM
GUEST, Dan 03 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM
artbrooks 04 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM
Robo 04 Sep 01 - 12:40 AM
Crazy Eddie 04 Sep 01 - 01:00 AM
Deni 04 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM
Mudlark 04 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM
KingBrilliant 04 Sep 01 - 05:31 AM
Terry K 04 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM
Steve Parkes 04 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM
clansfolk 04 Sep 01 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,AliUK on the works comp. 04 Sep 01 - 08:39 AM
Bat Goddess 04 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 01 - 08:57 AM
guinnesschik 04 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 01 - 09:46 AM
Steve Parkes 04 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM
Peg 04 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM
Big Mick 04 Sep 01 - 11:18 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 01 - 11:23 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 04 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,john_lockhart@yahoo.com 04 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM
GUEST, phylophisationer 04 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM
Jeri 04 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM
catspaw49 04 Sep 01 - 02:16 PM
Bert 04 Sep 01 - 02:55 PM
SINSULL 04 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 04 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM
Jeri 04 Sep 01 - 04:47 PM
Mr Red 04 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM
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Subject: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:22 PM

I always thought that folk music was the music of "real" people but I've seen that some folksingers have recreated themselves with phony identities or characters. Some of them include:

Ramblin' Jack Elliott (Elliott Adnopoz), the son of a Jewish doctor from New York;

Bob Dylan (Robert Zimmerman), the son of a Jewish appliance store owner from Minnesota;

Utah Phillips (Bruce Cohen), the son of a Jewish movie theater owner from Ohio.

Are these people ashamed of who they are? Is being Jewish not acceptable for a folksinger?


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,Little Jewford
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM

That's right, we have to cover up our Judaism. The reason that Jack, Bob and Utah all wear hats is so that you goys don't see the horns.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:36 PM

Judaism has nothing to do with it!! It is a matter of simple economics and market perception. These guys all created identities which resonated with the heroes of folk music in the English language, which is predominantly a legacy of Anglo Saxon types -- including those who wrote most of the Childes' ballads, the cowboy songs, the chanties, plough-songs, pioneer songs, Appalachian tunes, moonshining music, railroading songs, drunk brawl ballads and chanties and love songs and rebel tunes which make up the mass of that legacy. If you're going to sell records in Rome, sing as the Romans sing. You'll sell more records that way then sweating in a niche category trying to have a global impact.

This is a statistical observation, not a political or sociological issue.

A


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Guest, who started this thread,... Although I am not Jewish, you are courteous encouraged, BY ME, to spend the rest of an exquisite (for the rest of us) eternity in that sacred and exclusive region expressly set aside for the eternal damnation of the souls of people who have SO much in common with you... ttr


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:50 PM

Not only Jewish people, Ewan McColl, regarded by some as the founding father of the present day folk revival, totally reinvented not only his name, but his employment history, his lifestyle and entire past. The only person to surpass this work of biographical fiction was L Ron Hubbard!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,AliUK on the works computer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM

hmmm. Inflamatory thread? I think Bob actually used the name Dylan in homage of his favourite Poet Dylan Thomas. I honestly believe that he didn't actually start out to make a quick buck, but was/is genuinely interested in his heritage. And heritage he has, for though his birthright is jewish he is also a North American, and he has the right of all North Americans to explore their own traditions. I suspect that with Ramblin'Jack and Utah the reason was the same. And I wouldn't say that they are phoney identities but certainly nome-de-plumes/guerre, which has been a tradition in itself for many centuries.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:21 PM

Don't quote me on this but I think McColl was born Jimmy Miller in Salford


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM

Ian McGeachie annoyed a lot of people in Glasgow, years ago, when he took off for London and became The Folksinger John Martyn. Bad enough changing his name, but sticking a "y" in for an "i" - well I'll be knocked down, hog-tied, horse-whupped, dipped and double-dipped in dog shit, as Mick Broderick of the Whistlebinkies used to say.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,John Nolan
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

Last entry was JN with a wiped out cookie


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Cllr
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

indeed Jimmy Miller it was, but I'll forgive him for some of his rather strange ideas if for nothing else because of the wonderful singing of his daughter.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,Hille
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

Strangely enough, we thought we'd try a phony identity down at our club this week. It apparently involves me having my hair in plaits and wearing a t-shirt with the legend "Britney" on it. (I think it's been done before, yawn.....) but, apparently, anything for a laugh, so, in the end it all comes down to marketing, one way or another..


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

Jimmy Miller was, I believe, born in Glasga and of Scottish parents who, perforce, had to find work and Salford (aka Dirty Old Town) was the nearest ---- to their hearts!
So said Tam Kearney who ran the Fiddlers Green FC in Toronto upto the late 80's.
It is also said that E.McC put in his book of songs (published under his nom de guerre) about some if not most songs - "from the singing of Jimmy Miller"! Psuedonyms have a use!!!


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: toadfrog
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM

It does bug me that people strike poses and take on phoney identities to sing folk songs. On the other hand, threads with anti-semetic overtones, signed by "GUEST," bug me a whole lot more.

By the way, two of my favorite Anglo-Saxon folksingers are named John Cohen and Tracy Schwarz.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:43 PM

At least Cohen and Schwartz don't hide their Jewish names.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

:>(


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:05 PM

I found the most delightful CD (at my local thrift store) called "LIBERTY HORSES"... and the twa brothers on it are Ewan and Peggy's sons. Kitty, their sister is also on it, and I am quite fascinated by it. It isn't 'folk', but pop/rock, and could have commercial appeal... Great music of the genera it occupies, and it is so good for me to hear what they are up to... Also, has anyone ever heard of a pop band called "THE BIBLE"? It seems the MacColl brothers were in it... and in the states, I have found no reference to them at all....ttr


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST, Dan
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

At a Neil Young concert recently I was quite surprised to hear him tell a vignette about his daddy the farmer when introducing "Daddy Went Walking." Unless I'm losing my marbles, his dad was a newspaper editor for the Toronto Sun (Star?) and wrote a book called "Neil and Me" which is in my garage somewhere. Country is decidedly cool.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

Wow, the weather here is really getting hot again. Tomatoes and peppers ripening fast. I am going to be canning my butt of this week!

The Briard puppies, (4) and the Basenji puppies (3) are all doing well; growing sooo fast; new homes soon!

The transmission is going out on my car; name of John Lee, anybody want to volunteer to come fix it? (The Wrench's Mother...........)


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: AliUK
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:23 PM

since when has Neil Young been Country? He's Neil Young and great in any genre.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Guest-Why the concern with peoples names/identities? I notice you dont share yours.john in hull


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Harvest Moon is pretty close in my estimation...


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST, Dan
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

AliUK: I didn't say he was country I don't know what you're talking about. And don't give me any crap I named my son after him. Tell it to someone else.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM

Hummm...Jewish guy named Cohen marries a shicksa named McGuire...kids are named Cohen but they aren't considered Jewish any more by "observant" Jews. Do that a few more times and even Brother Adolph would let them pass by. Schwartz...isn't that German for black? Does GUEST think everyone named Black, in any language, is Jewish?

BTW, Utah Phillips was once Bruce Phillips, and he was even "U. Utah Phillips, the Golden Voice of the Golden West" at one point. At least he HAS a name!


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Robo
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:40 AM

I thought Utah was actually from West Virginia?


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:00 AM

I thought Virginia Woolf was from Utah?


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Deni
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

Don't take it too seriously. It's only showbusiness and there are as many 'real' and 'phoney' people there as in any other walk of life.

Deni


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Mudlark
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Personally, I could care less about a folksinger's background. All I ask of a musician is that they honor the music they sing/play, that they perform with passion and heart and an authentic emotional connection with their material. I still remember talking with Utah Phillips at a party....can still see him, arms outstretched, pretending to drive a 16-wheeler. Did he ever drive a semi? Hell, I don't care. He's a story teller! And he tells well.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:31 AM

A friend of mine invented a phony Country songwriter, being a little embarassed to admit to writing his own songs. He never actually used the invention though, as none of us could say 'Slim Hoofnagle' without cracking up. Many happy hours of joy we had in contemplating it though. In the end it was easier to confess to having written his song himself.

Kris PS - we also in the end thought it might have seemed like taking the piss out of the audience, what d'you reckon?


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Terry K
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

AliUK says Bob chose Dylan "in homage of his favourite poet Dylan Thomas".

Bob is actually claimed to have said he chose Dylan because of Matt Dillon - his favourite TV western character at the time. He's also quoted as saying "I did more for Dylan Thomas than he ever did for me". So there!

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM

Our family name was actually Kissinger, but my dad changed it to Collins in the 50s to avoid creditors. When they caught up with him he changed it to Wilson, and then again to Webb, and finally to Parkes, which seems to have done the trick. You can still hear people in Walsall say "I wonder who's Kissinger now?"

Steve


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: clansfolk
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:17 AM

Why pick on individuals????

Why not all these groups/bands of people who get together to make music and then take a collective name instead of keeping their own names????? ;-p

Brian Dewhurst from Lancashire, England worked for years under his own name with groups such as the Wayfarers then when became "famous" and starting doing television he had to apply for an equity card and as there was already an artist with the name Brian Dewhurst on their membership list - Brian had to change his surname - choosing Preston to replace it! This could be one reason why people take on a stage name.

Hasn't it always been so in the entertainment industry? Though I expect in the early days of stage etc... it was done more to protect the individuals family and friends from the shame - don't put your daughter on the stage Mrs Worthington and comments such as getting a real job spring to mind.

Anyhow - a rose by any other name etc.....

clansfolk - oops - Pete


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,AliUK on the works comp.
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:39 AM

Terry, is that true Interesting story, I did'[t know that. You learn something new everyday. Dan? Sorry I misunderstood a thousand apologies and a fine name to give to your son. Though I see nothing wrong with country music, so your reaction was a little extreme I tought.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM

Other fine traditional singers who happen to be Jewish are Helen Schneyer and Dave Diamond. I certainly don't think disguising one's origins is necessary as a career enhancer. (What is this? Hollywood?)

And speaking of changing identities, I remember when Ed Gerhard was Driveway Wilson -- but fer-gawd's-sake, don't tell him I remember!!!

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:57 AM

I thought the band The Bible was Boo Hewerdine's band before he became Eddi Reader's musical partner...


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: guinnesschik
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

Kinky Friedman is also a fairly tradional "country" singer who also happens to be a Texan.

*grins sheepishly and ducks*


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:46 AM

I don't think folks did it to hide their Judaism. I think Amos is right. I don't know Utah Philips story , but, Bob and Jack wanted to be rough and tumble, western , hard knocks type heroes like their mutual hero Woody Guthrie, who told some tall tales of his own. I believe both men know damn well who they are, where they came from, and there isn't any shame involved.
I also believe that it is a shame that aliens need to show up for us all to recognize that we are members of the same race, the human one. Stupid Earthlings.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

There's a well-established precedent: Abram (Big Daddy) changed his name to Abraham (Father of the Nation).


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Peg
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

steve parkes; there was a similar joke around a few years back...about a woman who,m owing to various marital choices, would eventually wind up as as Wanda Hughes Kissinger...


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:18 AM

Ahhh..........I love my Mudcatters!! Here we have another of the miscreants, using a legitimate topic, baiting it with anti semitism........then sitting back and waiting for the predictable outrage. And what happens? No one bites..........a couple even point out the inconsistency of one who refuses to name themselves complaining about a phony identity. And by the way.........don't you supposedly brilliant manipulators of all us poor, simple unfortunates generally adopt "cute" Guest names? You are not nearly as smart as you think you are, and the good citizens of this village have you pegged.

And best of all............they hijacked the thread back to the subject. I love it!!

I am not sure why these folks adopted a different ID, but I think the answer can be found in the times. Stage names were not at all uncommon. Remember that during the late 40's, the 50's, and into the 60's, for marketing purposes the stage name was used that promoted you to the market you were trying to reach. The middle class was burgeoning, so you didn't want to be in any way controversial. Even the supposed counter culture artists would try to appeal to marketing. In middle class America was the market place. I am not sure what the answer is, but I suspect it is a combination of all those factors such as anti semitism, marketing, pressure from the record company exec's........and so on.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:23 AM

Ali: Yeah I was grumpy last night, eh? Maybe I was disappointed in Neil rather than myself or you. (Actually I know who has me on edge but that's a different story.) Regards Dan (I'll dig that book out, someday, and maybe find that his Dad did plant potatoes or something.)


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM

Or... Why don't we all just post with our real names, and make public who we are, where we live, et all... I believe that privacy is also a concern... Then again, a lot of the flaming and harshly provocative "GUEST" posts would be eliminated if we had to post under our home phone number...


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST,john_lockhart@yahoo.com
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

Clansfolk, thanks for the info on Brian Dewhurst - I was wondering what had happened to him - I remember him in the 70's in the North of England, and he was one of the best, a good singer and a great guy.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: GUEST, phylophisationer
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to ME?

Look, I just apologized for a cavil about as big as a boil on a gnat's ass. I live on Terwilliger Blvd. And, no, you can't have my phone number.

Dan


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM

Steve Parkes, that was HORRIBLE! (You have my admiration.)

Sort of gives us an idea why people change their names, if people care more for the names than the people and what they've accomplised. And this coming from someone who doesn't use ANY name! I'm shocked, I tell you - shocked!

You know, we ought to start a permathread on all the classic wind-ups so people won't have to keep trying them over and over. Then again, maybe not.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:16 PM

Gawd I love being gone for awhile....Such nutso shit to return to!!!

Names are great things to change........I knew a guy named Smith that went by Jablonski. Who cares?

Patterson isn't my actual name either......One of those wonderful Ellis Island things from an Italian name the guy couldn't understand so........

My Dad's best friend was Joe Pickenstein....sounds Jewish, but one look at the family and the Italian is unmistakable. Joe's gone now, but his son Mark (my best friend in childhood) recently met a Marcellus Pickenstein who had done the entire geneology thing......They live in Northern Italy, have lived there for several centuries, but originally came from Germany.......

I'm thinking that Mick oughta' change his name from "Lane" to "Spudnuts."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Bert
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:55 PM

Hey Spaw, I've got a recipe for spudnuts.

BTW what would you (and other Mudders) choose as a stage name. None of this formula stuff though, the 'Limp Banana Bush' theme has been done to death.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I'm leaning towards "TaterTots" myself. Just read that Hank Snow chose Hank because it sounded "country". Worked for him - a Canadian. My name was changed from Sinclair to Mary because of the miracle of my birth. I have been pissed ever since. Does that make me an anti-Papist? Or only if I become famous?


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM

john in hull is my real name, although I am no relation to Les, rob, Paul or any other hull's.


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:47 PM

I was Djiryl on AOL (yes, I confess to having been an A-OLer). It was after Gordon Bok's 'Seal Djiril's Hymn' only I spelled it wrong, and probably have done so again. I figure if there really were such a thing as seal people, then I probably would have some selkie genes. I used to practically live in the water, and my nose is cold and wet most of the time. (who's going for the cheap shot?)


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Subject: RE: Folksingers with phony identities
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Just a thought - how many catters regard themselves as folksingers and how many of them hide behind yet more bizarre names?

My answer machine message is a short song - My God I must be a folksinger with a phoney identity.
GUILTY as charged and unrepentant.


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