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The Hobbit

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twister 19 Aug 01 - 02:29 AM
Crazy Eddie 19 Aug 01 - 04:10 AM
Jenny the T 19 Aug 01 - 08:14 AM
Clinton Hammond 19 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 19 Aug 01 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,fisssh 19 Aug 01 - 11:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 01 - 12:37 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,fisssh 19 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM
Don Firth 19 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,fisssh 19 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Aug 01 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,from 11:45am 19 Aug 01 - 05:32 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Aug 01 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,a RB RFT (and what exactly is that, CH?) 19 Aug 01 - 09:48 PM
Clinton Hammond 19 Aug 01 - 10:56 PM
twister 19 Aug 01 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,from 5:32 19 Aug 01 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 19 Aug 01 - 11:31 PM
Jenny the T 20 Aug 01 - 11:16 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 01 - 11:20 AM
Jenny the T 20 Aug 01 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,JohnB 20 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM
BK Lick 20 Aug 01 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,from 11:20 20 Aug 01 - 06:04 PM
Liz the Squeak 21 Aug 01 - 01:39 AM
Clinton Hammond 21 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM
Clinton Hammond 21 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Hagbard 22 Aug 01 - 12:29 AM
John P 22 Aug 01 - 02:04 AM
Clinton Hammond 22 Aug 01 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,from 6:04, Tolkien Scholar 22 Aug 01 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Tolkien scholar 22 Aug 01 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Again 22 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM
Hollowfox 22 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM
Clinton Hammond 22 Aug 01 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Hagbard 22 Aug 01 - 08:35 PM
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Subject: The Hobbit
From: twister
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:29 AM

Okay I have to do this really stupid ABC Hobbit book and I need words that have to do with the story beginning with either an I, P, V, X, Y, or Z. If anybody can think of any words thatare in the bookor can go with the story or can be connected, PLEASE HELP!!!!


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:10 AM

X: There are very few words which begin with X. I don't recall Gandalf playing the Xylaphone. However, you could probably describe orcs as being XENOPHOBIC.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Jenny the T
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 08:14 AM

Can the words come from just the one book, or the the whole Trilogy fair game?

Here's a couple, anyway:

"Yrch" means "orc" in Elvish.

Isuldur was Elendil's son. If that's no good, "Imladris" is the Elvish name for Rivendell.

"Palantirs" are found in the Trilogy. There's also the "Paths of the Dead."

It's a start ...

JtT


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM

I is The Iron Hills, east of Smaug's Desolation...

P... as in Pine Tree, where they climbed to escape the goblins in "Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire"

V... as in "Voiceless it cries, toothless it mutters", from "Riddles In The Dark"?? Or is that too vague?

Y "Yammer and bleat" part of the song the goblins sing as the haul the dwarves into the caverns in "Over hill and Under hill"

These may all be wayyy too vague, but atleast they're all from the Hobbit...

Go to ringbearer.org, and ask on the message board... I'm sure some of the RTF's over there can help ya!

;-)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:45 AM

Actually, Palatirs, Imladris, yrch, Paths of The Dead, and Isildur are never mentioned in The Hobbit.

--Iron Hills for "I" is a good one!
--For "P" try "Ponies"...they are an integral part of the story.
--"V" for the Vinyards of Dorwinion, where the Elven King (Thuranduril) of Mirkwood received his wine from.
--"Y" maybe for Yellow, Bilbo's favorite color of waistcoats...
--Hmmmm...."Zirik-Zigil" never appears in the The Hobbit..."Azog The Goblin" may be closest you'll ever get...
--X you may never find. The letter is not a part of Quenya or Sindarin, is never seek in Khudzul, and the only Mannish words that start with X are ones that come about in the far far far future...


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,fisssh
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:59 AM

How about X marks the spot where they find the treasure? It's not technically correct, but for kiddies it's OK.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM

Mainly abridged from 'A Tolkien Bestiary' by David Day

I - Istari. After a thousand years had passed in the third age of the sun, an Elven ship came out of the Western sea and sailed to the grey havens. Upon that ship were five men with long white beards and great cloaks. Each cloak was a different colour, and each man wore a tall pointed hat, high travellers boots and carried a long staff. These men were the Istari, whom men called Wizards; their hats and staffs were their signs of office. They were Maiar, spirits older than the world itself and of that race that came from Ilúvatar in the timeless halls. First named and most praised in the fourth age was Gandalf the Grey, who by the Elves was called Mithradir, by the Dwarves Tharkún and Incánus by the Haradrim.

P - Periannath. In the histories of the war of the Ring it is told how the smallest and most timid of races, the Hobbits, were the means by which the war was won. And so the Periannath, as the Hobbits were known in the Grey Elven tongue, became famed in the songs of Elves and Men and were praised for their valour.

V - Valaraukar. Of the Maiar there were many who were of the element of Fire. Melkor cam amongst these and corrupted many. From brilliant beings they were transformed to demons that burned with hate. They were hulking monsters robed in darkness and they carried whips of flames. Most commonly they were known in Middle Earth as Balrogs, the 'demons of the night'.

X - Nothing direct this time I'm afraid but look at the Dwarvish runes in 'The Hobbit'. I'm sure you will notice the rune for 'G' is 'X' - or at least close enough not to notice. Now who do we know who's name begins with G..?;-)

Y - Yrch, as mentioned earlier or Yavanna. Those of the Ainur counted amongst the Valar are: Manwé, the Wind King; Varda, Queen of the Stars; Yavanna, Giver of Fruits and Melkor, later named Morgoth, the Dark Enemy.

Z - Zirakzigil. As is told in the Red book of Westmarch, the Balrogs dominion remained uncontested for two centuries, until he was cast down from the peak of Zirakzigal by the Wizard Gandalf after the battle on the Bridge of Khazad-dum.

Hope this helps.

And have I got nothing better to do? No - listening to Scandanavian folk music and researching some fantasy works. What could be better??? :-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:37 PM

BTW - I know that I am stretching it a bit but when you consider that 'the story' of the Hobbit is inexorably linked to Lord of the Rings, the Silmarilion and all the other work Tolkien put in I reckon we can get away with it!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM

It's been a while since I read it, but I'm sure there is an X marks the spot - remember the back door? Three feet high and two may walk abreast?.... Or have I got it muddled with Indiana Jones and the last crusade, where X never, ever marks the spot....

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM

The rune that marks the back door on the map at the front of most editions looks like an X with the sides filled in.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,fisssh
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM

Yay about the X! Thanks Liz, that does look like one.

This is a book for small children, right? So the words can't be too hard. Here are some Z ideas:

Zap - for when Gandalf throws firey pinecones at the Wargs.

Zing - something to do with Sting, when Bilbo fights the spiders?

Zoom - when the eagles fly them to safety

Zoo - Beorn's menagerie could be described this way, but it's reaching!

Zero - can't think of anything, but another good easy word.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM

Small children? Nah, I don't really think so. I think Tolkien started out to write a childrens' story and then got caught up in it and it got out of hand. I read The Hobbit again about two weeks ago and found it thoroughly engaging. I'm now into the first book of the trilogy -- again!

"Never laugh at a living dragon!" -- Bilbo Baggins

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,fisssh
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM

I didn't mean the Hobbit was a children's book, I meant the book that twister is working on, the ABC Hobbit book. I assumed it was a picture book for children -- A is for Apple, B is for Ball -- using a Hobbit theme. But maybe that was the wrong impression, maybe it's more of a Middle Earth glossary. In which case you should definitely not use Zap and Zing! :)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:10 PM

Never laugh at live dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup....

Still nothing for Z and I've been reading the damned thing all afternoon now... your fault!!

It could be worse, ever read 'The Never-ending Story'? by Michael Ende. There are 26 chapters in the book, each beginning with the consecutive letters of the alphabet.... very cleverly done and not the least bit contrived as the X and Z character names are introduced so early that you don't realise...

Damn.

I'm going to have to read that one now.....

Bugger. Another pile of ironing not done!

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,from 11:45am
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:32 PM

Actually, the rune on the map is a "D" rune, (for "door") in the Nordic tradition, before Tolkien reworked them into the slightly different Dwarvish rune system known as the Angerthas.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:39 PM

There's always one isn't there......!

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,a RB RFT (and what exactly is that, CH?)
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 09:48 PM

Some straws for you to clutch at XL (extra large) seed cakes (or whatever it is Bilbo wishes for) :D xanthous - relating to or designating races with yellowish hair and fair skin. The elves? Lol I'm sure you could do better than that tho. xylograph - an engraving in wood xyst, xystus or xystos - a covered garden walk or one lined with trees. The trip through Mirkwood was one hell of an unpleasant xyst :D ;)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 10:56 PM

The Hobbit IS a childrens book!

It always has been and it always will be...

And it's the best thing JRR ever wrote in my opinion...

Ya wanna find out what an RTF is?? Come to ringbearer.org and ask on the message board... You'll find a community every bit as close nit and as dysfunctional as mudcat...

;-)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: twister
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:01 PM

My goodness do you people know your Hobbit!!!!The book is actually for a school project. I've decided to use ponies for P, voiceless it cries for V, and I'm still looking into if zip, zap, or zoom are actually in the book. Thank you so much. You've given me hope again!!!


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,from 5:32
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:18 PM

Yes, LTS, there is ALWAYS The One!


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:31 PM

Why be a duffus?

Go to where your teacher got her ideas: http://www.randomhouse.com/BB/teachers/tgs/hobbit.html

Skim down the page...you will then find some truely GREAT vocabulary....If you are going to "use the net" be careful to not "get caught in the net" by using TOO many of those grand words.

Z - how about scimitar (mis-spelled with a Zcimitar --- however, in ME the s was a z)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Jenny the T
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:16 AM

yet another nameless GUEST points out:

>Actually, Palatirs, Imladris, yrch, Paths of The
>Dead, and Isildur are never mentioned in The Hobbit.

Really? What would we ever do without you? And just what do you suppose I meant by

>Can the words come from just the one book, or is the
>whole Trilogy fair game?

Thanks for nothing.

JtT


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:20 AM

I'm sorry, I didn't see that part...


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Jenny the T
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:35 AM

Eh, you know, 'sokay.

I'm testy in the morning before I've had my gallon of coffee.

Sorry for being snappish ...

JtT


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM

Surely Hobbits still go Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz when they sleep. JohnB


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: BK Lick
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:31 PM

Ponies for P is good—and there are also two things Bilbo is fond of that begin with P: his Pipe and Pocket handkerchiefs.

      – Bruce


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,from 11:20
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:04 PM

And the most important "P" of all, Preciousssss...


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:39 AM

~Hey, hobbits may not go Zzzzzzz when they sleep, but I bet poor old Bombur did when he was alseep in Mirkwood after falling in the enchanted stream.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

Here ya go...

Go here... http://www.odessa.net/moshkow/koi/TOLKIEN/hobbitengl.txt

Save it and open it in yer favorite word processor, and then just scan it for words starting with X,Z, or whatever...

;-)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

The only words that begin with Z in The Hobbit are zig-zag... decriptive of the path that leads down to Rivendale...

So I guess that's gonna have to do...

;-)


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,Hagbard
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:29 AM

Somewhat on a side note, I was at Pennsic last week and was requested to sing a few songs from the LOTR Trilogy. Two of my favorites are Legolas' Lay of Nimrodel and Galadriel's Lament. Unfortunately for me, the adaptations I've heard all have used notes way out of my range. While waiting my turn in the circle, I was playing with different tunes to see what would work within my range..... and thus it came to pass that Galadiel's Lament and the Lay of Nimrodel were sung to "Ghost Riders in the Sky".

Hagbard


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: John P
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 02:04 AM

The runes on the map of the mountain have an X in them. Of course, the X rune doesn't mean X, but it does mean Z . . . and it's the beginning of a word, so in the message on the map is a word that looks like XRMA and spells ZBOA.

OK, so that doesn't make any sense, but it's the best I can do this late at night.

John P


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 02:48 AM

Makes me glad I wasn't at Pensic this year, Hagbard...


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,from 6:04, Tolkien Scholar
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:01 AM

Actually, I found out some time ago that the Lament of The Ents & The Entwives fits perfectly to Riders In The Sky as well.

John P, the dwarf-rune that looks like an "X" is the rune for "G". The words that appears in the moon-letters on the map that looks like "XRMA" actually says "grey". It must be remembered that the runes Tolkien used as dwarf-runes are exactly the same as the Nordic runes, as I said earlier. If the words are translated using Tolkien's own runic invention Angerthas, (which is found in the appendix of the LoTR) a variation on Nordic runes to be made more original and "dwarvish", then the words on the map do not translate right. I used the Nordic runes table in my 1990 edition of World Book Encyclopedia to translate all runes on the the maps (and runes on the front cover of the edition I had) when I was 12, and it translates out perfectly. I was unaware of the difference myself, when I tried to translate Balin's Tomb using Nordic runes, receiveing meaningless gibberish. Of course at that time, I was still reading the Fellowship, and didn't know there was such a thing as the Angerthas, and that there was a table in the appendix of The Return of The King.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,Tolkien scholar
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:03 AM

Ah, I had meant to say that the runes used in The Hobbit are straight Nordic runes. The runes used in LoTR are Angerthas.


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,Again
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM

From theonering.net:

Why were the Dwarves using Anglo/Saxon Runes for these inscriptions instead of the Angerthas/Cirth Runes (described in "The Lord of the Rings", Appendix E) ?

In order to write "The Hobbit", Tolkien had to developed a culture for the Dwarves. The Dwarves were known for and prized their expertise in mining and their craftsmanship in wood, stone and metal- working. Although they were equally skilled as calligraphers, employing most of the writing systems in Middle-earth, when writing for themselves, they preferred to a Runic style alphabet.

I believe that Tolkien planned for the Dwarves to use a Runic alphabet unique to Middle-earth, but when "The Hobbit" was written (in 1937), he had not yet invented the Elvish Angerthas/Cirth Runic alphabet that the Dwarves would eventually come to use.

In "The Hobbit", the words of the Hobbits, the Elves, the Goblins and the Dwarves are all translated into English. Likewise the Runic inscriptions are written with the more familiar English or Anglo/Saxon Runes rather than the Elvish/Dwarvish Angerthas/Cirth Runes of Middle-earth.

Primary sources:

"The Hobbit" by J. R. R. Tolkien
Houghton-Mifflin
ISBN 0-395-28265-9

"The Return of the King" by J. R. R. Tolkien
Appendix E
Houghton-Mifflin
ISBN 0-395-27221-1


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Hollowfox
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM

Dang, Hagbard, you should have stopped over at the Great Dark Horde camp for a visit. Are your Tolkein tunes the ones written by Donald Swann?


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 02:18 PM

ICK!!! Hfox said the unholy name!!!

*throws a big rock at Hfox!!!

DRIVE OUT THE FOX!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: The Hobbit
From: GUEST,Hagbard
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:35 PM

Hollowfox, I was just down the hill from you then, at the House von Draken camp across Brewer's Road from Settmour Swamp. I was hoping to sing more this Pennsic, but I pulled a calf muscle late in the first week and couldn't navigate some of the steeper hills. I did get to Chalkman and Howling Mouse a couple nights early and sing. I only did the Tolkien Songs in my own camp though.

The tunes I know are the ones written by Caspar Reiff and Peter Hall with the Tolkien Ensemble and recordings by Avalon Rising to tunes by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Kristoph Klover, and Margaret Davis.

Hagbardr Leorfotr


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