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Need help with sea term: flaked or faked

radriano 16 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,rangeroger 16 Aug 01 - 12:58 PM
MMario 16 Aug 01 - 01:06 PM
Devilmaster 16 Aug 01 - 01:07 PM
Charley Noble 16 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM
mousethief 16 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM
MMario 16 Aug 01 - 01:20 PM
Whistle Stop 16 Aug 01 - 01:27 PM
radriano 16 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM
Cobble 16 Aug 01 - 01:36 PM
Charley Noble 16 Aug 01 - 01:49 PM
Gareth 16 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM
kendall 16 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Willa 16 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Aug 01 - 02:27 PM
kendall 16 Aug 01 - 02:36 PM
Whistle Stop 16 Aug 01 - 02:46 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 01 - 02:53 PM
mousethief 16 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 03:23 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 01 - 03:48 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 03:59 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Aug 01 - 04:31 PM
Charley Noble 16 Aug 01 - 05:25 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 01 - 05:42 PM
Amos 16 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM
radriano 16 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Melani 16 Aug 01 - 07:01 PM
kendall 16 Aug 01 - 07:27 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Aug 01 - 07:36 PM
radriano 16 Aug 01 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Doc 16 Aug 01 - 08:12 PM
catspaw49 16 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,chip2447 16 Aug 01 - 11:50 PM
Chanteyranger 17 Aug 01 - 12:24 AM
Amos 17 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM
Lee Shore 17 Aug 01 - 04:15 AM
kendall 17 Aug 01 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Doc 17 Aug 01 - 05:38 AM
Charley Noble 17 Aug 01 - 09:59 AM
radriano 17 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 17 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM
catspaw49 17 Aug 01 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Doc 17 Aug 01 - 02:22 PM
catspaw49 17 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM
Les from Hull 17 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM
Gareth 17 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM
catspaw49 17 Aug 01 - 09:16 PM
Charley Noble 18 Aug 01 - 10:42 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM
Melani 18 Aug 01 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Andytwodogs 19 Aug 01 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net 19 Aug 01 - 06:28 PM
Gareth 19 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM
Cobble 19 Aug 01 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Pete M at work 19 Aug 01 - 11:34 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Aug 01 - 12:56 AM
Pete M 20 Aug 01 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 20 Aug 01 - 07:28 AM
kendall 20 Aug 01 - 08:06 AM
Charley Noble 20 Aug 01 - 09:19 AM
radriano 20 Aug 01 - 11:23 AM
kendall 20 Aug 01 - 11:52 AM
Melani 20 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM
Charley Noble 20 Aug 01 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Pete M at work 20 Aug 01 - 08:43 PM
Cobble 20 Aug 01 - 08:58 PM
Amos 20 Aug 01 - 09:18 PM
Melani 20 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM
GUEST,Pete M at work 21 Aug 01 - 12:27 AM
Terry K 21 Aug 01 - 04:59 AM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 01 - 09:42 AM
radriano 21 Aug 01 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net 21 Aug 01 - 02:41 PM
bobbi 21 Aug 01 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Doc 22 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM
Charley Noble 22 Aug 01 - 03:19 PM
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Subject: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM

One of the most famous homeward bound capstan shanties is Rolling Home. The first verse of one setting of the English version of Rolling Home is:

Call all hand to man the capstan
See the cable flaked down clear
Heave away and with a will, boys
For old England we will steer

The question is: Is it flake the cable correct or should it be fake the cable?

Richard


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:58 PM

Flaked is a term often applied to folding a sail onto a boom for instance.....Cables? Don't know Radriano........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,rangeroger
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:58 PM

Radrino, the term is "faked".It involves coiling the rope in a flat circle on the deck.

rr


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:06 PM

An article re: the transatlantic cable definatley says "flakes" of cable - which are pictured as large flat coils.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Devilmaster
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:07 PM

as a former sailor, i add my assent to rangeroger, it is faked.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM

Oh, my, this could be one of them dangerous threads that could ignite! According to THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA (not my personal knowledge and I wouldn't dare to try to "fake" it) to flake meanns "the operation of laying out the chain anchor cable of a ship on the forecastle deck for examination. It is hove up out of the cable lockers and ranged up and down the deck so that any weak or worn links can be located and the shackle of cable in which such a link occurs can be taken out of the cable and replaced with a new one." Diving below for cover...


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM

A rope laid down on the deck in such a way that it can be easily played out (coils or figure-of-eights being the most common) is "faked." I suppose with cables it would be the same thing.

From Webster's online:

Main Entry: 1fake
Pronunciation: 'fAk
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): faked; fak·ing
Etymology: Middle English
Date: 15th century
: to coil in fakes

Main Entry: 2fake
Function: noun
Date: 1627
: one loop of a coil (as of ship's rope or a fire hose) coiled free for running

-----

Alex


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM

Well this is interesting isn't it? I only know the term relating to sails and I have also known it to be used on lines as when they are coiled but I would think a cable would be hard to do the same to..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:20 PM

perhaps both are used?


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:27 PM

Another former sailor here (USCG) -- "faked" is the term I'm familiar with, defined exactly as rangeroger, Devilmaster and mousethief have already said. Perhaps there's another term called "flaking" that applies to transatlantic cable, but I'm not familiar with it.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM

Well, it's even money so far. Rolling Home appears in Stan Hugill's Shanties of the Seven Seas. In the two versions printed there the term is shown as "flaked." Chanteyranger, who works at Hyde Street Pier in San Francisco, says that the captains he's talked to say it's "flaked" but I've had other people (who are familiar with sailing and sea terminology) tell me it should be "faked."

The thing is that I've recorded this song using "flaked" and if it should indeed be "faked" I need to say so in the liner notes.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Cobble
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:36 PM

In my navy time I have flaked out more ropes than had hot dinner's. As Charley Noble said it is run up and down the deck, you can do it with cable as well, but the most common reason for flaking a rope was to pay it out etc, to take a ship in tow. Each time it is layed out the next flake is laid over the previous one, so when it payed out it does not tangle. If you look at a cadburys flake bar it is similar.

Cobble.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:49 PM

Now a Cadburys flake bar is something I can identify with. Richard, maybe you can work that into your notes. I've only "faked" by making spirals of excess line. Sounds to me that "flaking" is a different process, with at least two different functions: inspections or preparatory to letting it run out.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM

Funny that Cadbury's gets mentioned.

An old matloe (ex RN) put it very susinctly.

"A Flake is something you eat.

You fake a rope or sheet"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM

Maybe I have the wrong picture of what you mean by a "Flat circle" of rope. The picture I see is called "Flemished" It is used in boats and, unlike coiled or faked lines, it can be walked on without disturbing it.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM


Chambers dict.
fake (1); v, to fold, coil n, a coil of rope etc
flake (3) same as fake (1)
so it seems as though you are all right; choose which you like!


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:27 PM

Unless it's a typographival error that he missed reading the proofs, if Stan Hugill said it was "flaked", it was sung as "flaked". Which doesn't mean to say that it mightn't have been sung as "faked" as well.

Of course a typographical error is always possible. Does the word come up in any other shanties in the book or in the notes?


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:36 PM

faked and coiled are two different methods. Let me see if I can explain in print...faked... take a length of rope, lay it down on the deck, uncoiling it as you go, when you run out of room, make a loop at the end of your working room, then lay more down alongside the first strand until you come to the other end of your working room, make another loop and repeat the process until it is all faked down. This works well for a "Towing hawser" because it will pay out by itself.

Flaked is something you do to vegetables. English can be very imprecise at times. How often have you heard someone say "The ship FLOUNDERED, when the right word is FOUNDERED"?


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:46 PM

Yes, kendall, you are right (been a while since my last enlistment expired). "Faking" a line is laying it back and forth, as you described. Coiling it flat is "flemishing".


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:53 PM

Radioano, you will just have to go back and record a companion version so both fake and flake supporters are happy. Stuart, Seamans Catechism, 1860- "The chain cables and messengers are faked in the chain lockers." (quoted in OED). Flake: Quote from Capt. Smith, 1626- "Coyle your cable in small flakes." (also OED). Later applied to wire cable in electrical applications. Could this also be a case of shifting pronounciation? An example is asphalt, which often is pronounced ash-phalt.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

I'm not familiar with Chamber's dictionary. Is that a British thing? Webster's online gives no nautical definition of "flake." Maybe it's a UK/US difference, then?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:23 PM

Kendall, I agree on flemished but as I said, flaked does apply in terms of allowing a sail to be lowered to the boom. It is said to flaked, being folded oppositely and evenly as it is lowered (similar to the way you describe a line......It's the mos t common method used when you put a cover on the main over the boom when docked.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM

Merriam Webster's 3rd International unabridged gives flake as a variety of fake. Both words are English in origin. There is an earlier quote for fake than Stuart's in the OED but it is hard to write because it is in 15C English and does not really apply nautically. The online Webster's does not have all of the words in the unabridged, but the latter last came out (I think) in 1976 and is out-of-date.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:48 PM

Note to Kendall- flake has many meanings. Like Now I am going to flake out because I worked hard setting up a flake on which to dry my fish.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:59 PM

And of course the other meaning, as in Kendall is a flake of the first order.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:31 PM

There really is no commonality of nautical terms. I've heard both fake and flake. You probably shouldn't pay too much attention to sailors from Maine: they're the ones that call vangs "kicking straps".


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:25 PM

I doubt if there is an error in Hugil's TWO vesions which use "flake." I suppose if it were snowing, one would then have frosty flakes. I feel a lucrative shanty commercial coming on for a major cereal producer. What joy!


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM

Oh....You mean like "Kelloggs Sugar Plastered Fakes?"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:42 PM

The ship floundered through rough seas before it foundered. I think this thread is about to founder.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM

It also needs to be pointed out that in the original posting the capstan is being used to raise a cable (which is reported as being flaked) meaning the anchor cable. Depending on when this song was coined, this could have been a fat hemp cable, or a chain, the word having being carried over when chain technology got good enough to be used for anchors.

I have heard flaked being applied to chain and to sail, but I have always thought "faked" was correct for towing lines, mooring lines and other ropes -- this could just be an opinion on my part.

The American heritage dictionary provides the following for "flake":

flake 2 (flEk) n. 1. A frame or platform for drying fish or produce. 2. A scaffold lowered over the side of a ship to support workers or caulkers. [ Middle English fleke from Old Norse fleki hurdle]

and only provides the rope-handling definition for "fake":

fake 2 (fEk) n. 1. One loop or winding of a coiled rope or cable. v. tr. faked fak•ing fakes 1. To coil (a rope or cable). [ Middle English faken to coil a rope]

Note that the use of fake to coil rope goer back to the Middle English era, while the root or parentage for flake is totally different.

Regards,

A.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM

I just heard from Skip Henderson, one of the shanty singers that comes to Hyde Street Pier. According to him, the International Maritime Dictionary says "flake" and "fake" are interchangeable.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:01 PM

Well, sometimes our crew is pretty flaky, but they can usually fake it.

For the record, we flake our sails and fake out the mooring lines on Alma and the downhaul on Balclutha. But all said and done, Skip is probably correct--they are interchangable.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:27 PM

Not in the US Coast Guard they are not. I once used the incorrect term "Lapstreak" and was nearly keelhauled! The correct word is Lapstrake, or to shallow water types, "Clinker built"

Spaw, I was speaking of hawsers and other types of lines. I have "Faked" many a sail as you say. I guess you have to call it something, so, why not fake?


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:36 PM

Faking sail is acceptable in the best of circles. The OED compares with a similar Scandanavian word.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:40 PM

Well, this should prove interesting. I got a reply from Ken & Jan Lardner who run the Chantey Cabin website.

"Cannot give you an immediate reply - but we are about to set off for the 2 biggest festivals of the year (Hull and Portsmouth) so we will find the definitive answer on our travels even if we have to call in the Navy (the Portsmouth Festival is in the Naval Dockyard)."

When I hear back from the Lardners I'll post the results to this thread.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:12 PM

Well as I started all this by pointing out the "error" during the recording session, I'll weigh (tee hee) in with an opinion that faked is the original and correct term, misstated so often in recent times as "flaked" that the latter has become acceptable.

Another example that has occurred during my memory is the question, asked colloquially in New York City as, "I could care less?" This is the obverse, of course, of the statement, "I couldn't care less."

In the Army, however, that mixing bowl of argot, men from elsewhere than New York missed hearing the rising inflection at the end and turned the expression into the statement, "Hey, I could care less!" This actually has become the most frequently used form of the expression, even though it means exactly the opposit of what the speaker intends.

Another inelegant example of linguistic shift is the epithet, again from the New York area, of "scum bag". This amounted to calling someone a used condom and was used in rough company, as among groups of little boys, or by policemen on the job. But in the early days of TV the reference to semen was unacceptable, so the euphemism "dirt bag", which has no meaning whatever, was invented by TV censors.

Now middle-aged cops, who grew up watching early TV, call the perpetrators, "dirt bag", having not a clue as to where the term came from. In a movie I saw on (unfaked) cable the other night a cop called a guy a, "motherfucking, cocksucking dirt bag!" (That last bit must have really hurt.)

Flaked, like floundered, is simply a careless mispronunciation of the word: an error that has become acceptable only to those who are more pragmatic than they are respectful of tradition. The fact that a small number of people have been making the mistake for centuries doesn't make it any less a mistake. One should take into account, I believe, that for very good reason there has been a traditional insistance that young sailors learn proper nautical terminology.

On my ship the term is faked, and only landsmen and lubbers say flaked.

Doc


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM

Doc, you'll be happy to know that I have called several people around here both Scumbags and Douchebags....I like to be gender specific.

Kendall.....you fake your sails, I'll flake mine. Say, there is a sail loft up your way that I never bought from, but I wore one of thier T-Shirts anyway. The company is Hard Sails and of course their T-Shirt says, "Sail With A Hard On"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,chip2447
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:50 PM

Tossing a head fake out there and going for the frosted flakes instead of the goal...
Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:24 AM

Well, I've learned something from this thread about the term. Though I've only encountered "flake" it looks as though "fake" is just as acceptable. As the old adage goes: "Different ships - different long splices."

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM

Excuse me, but "dirt bag" has a very well-established meaning. The difference between a Hoover anda Harley is the location of it. It is the replaceable paper bag that captures the stuff a vacuum cleaner brings up.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Lee Shore
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 04:15 AM

A sail is flaked down on the boom. A line is faked down on deck in loose figure eights in preparations for running. If it's coiled flat it's flemished. Flake with regard to laying out line is a mispronounciation of fake, but there's a lot of that, even among seasoned sailors. Many fishermen insist on pronouncing "hawser" as "howser", just as many weekend sailors refer to "knots per hour." But don't get me started on that one.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 05:23 AM

Lee shore and guest Doc, you are right on the money. Carelessness in the civilian area is acceptable, but, in the military it can get you introduced to the Bos'ns "Starter".


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 05:38 AM

The collection bag in a vacuum cleaner merely fits the descripion of a "dirt bag" by coincidence. The term arose as I said as a wholly invented, ad hoc euphemism at a time in the sixties when "scum bag" wouldn't yet get by the TV and movie censors, but could be suggested, insofar as many people would recognize what term "dirt bag" was supposed to represent.

I hope none of you folks who say "flake" ever has trouble with your "prostrate". God forbid you should ever need any "nucular" radiation.

As someone said earlier, this discussion is beginning to "flounder". I'm not sure the old terms matter any more anyway, in these days of "alunimum" spars. (They're better anyway because they won't burn, being "inflammable".)

Nautical terms can themselves be quite tortured. Sitting in the half-darkened Purser's Office on B deck at about five one morning in mid-Atlantic, in August of 1952, bored by inactivity since the annunciator board wouldn't start lighting up with calls for the bellboy for another hour or more, I began to ponder what to call the rather deep embrasure into which the porthole was fitted. Because of the inward slope of the hull (is that also called the "tumblehome" or is the tumblehome only at the stern under the counter?), anyway; because of the slope of the hull and the vertical inner bulkhead, the bulkhead was about 18" in from the plane of the porthole.

On the S.S. America the Third Class Purser's office was on the starboard side of the ship. But had it been on the other side I reconed, the nautical name of that deep embrasure would have been the "port port hole hole".

Oh, yes, and there's "dead" reconing for Ded(uced) Reconing.

I once had a patient with fibroids in her uterus tell me she had fireballs in her eucharist. 'Nother guy with cirrhosis said he had a "ferocious" liver.

But in my game terms were not always safely interchangable. Remember the old story about guy who demanded to be castrated and eventually got his way. The day after surgery he was told by his roommate that the roommate was in for a circumcision. "THAT'S the word I was trying to remember !!", the guy exclaimed.

Doc


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:59 AM

Wasn't it one of Magellan's ships that first circumcised the world back in 1522? (beware thread creep!)


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM

Now, Doc, bless your sweet little sticky heart. I'm still not thoroughly convinced although it seems like you've come into this discussion determined to prove that you're right. But just for the sake of argument why couldn't flake have been the original word that kept getting mispronounced as fake?


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM

I've heard "Flemish(ed) fakes" somewhere - probably Patrick O'Brian. Not beyond the bounds of possibility that that's where the l crept in.

Regards

p.s As they say in Dublin "Meself? I think this thread is a bit of a damp squid!"


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:05 PM

I know it kills you traditionalist types, but many racing sailors shitcanned some the lingo awhile back. It wasn't done with the thought of losing the heritage, but simply for the sake of communication. Nothing really wrong with Prepare to Jibe/Jibe Ho (or Gybe), or Ready about/Hard Alee........It's just a lot more efficient in crew work to say Tacking in 10/Tacking in 5/Tacking in two/Tacking the boat.

I like the older terminology but at times it simply doesn't fit what is happening on a race course. And flake is still the proper term for folding down a sail onto the boom either for mooring or when taking a reef.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 02:22 PM

Jibe. That's another one. Many people say, "that doesn't jive with what he said," instead of, "that doesn't jibe with what he said." Jibe in this sense means, to agree. (One wonders whether jibing come from that meaning: to turn with, or in agreement with, the wind instead of into, against or across it.) People unfamiliar with jibe substituted a familiar one that sounded similar. I believe they must have thought "jive" was what they heard when they first encountered the expression.

Or perhaps they learned it that way from someone else who had made that mistake.

Well I don't think I'm merely trying to hold back the passage of time by banishing change in this age when time is synonymous with change, although that is possible. What do I think is that one of the greatest strengths of any culture is the commonality of its language. I think a certain amount of effort should be made to protect a language from erosions of meaning and syntax when they appear to come solely from error compounded by apathy. Nevertheless, old friend, you remind me that I do not aspire to convince. I am grateful merely that I am given a chance to be heard.

Doc


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM

Actually Doc, I agree with you. One of the most enjoyable things around here at the 'Cat is running down the meaning of words.....or whether or not the word we're discussing actually was the right word! See the thread on "Wabash Cannonball" for a good example.

Spaw - (and when my sailing partner of many years and I are together in a two man event such as Lightnings, we tend to take away the concentration of the rest of the fleet with a loud call of, "Ready Your Head....Hard To Cum")


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

Fake or flake are interchangeable asccording to John Harland's 'Seamanship in the age of sail', which I consider to be the best source I've got for this sort of thing. English sources usually mention flake, but this may be a transatlantic thing. We're not talking about coiling ropes on deck, but laying cable in the orlop or cable tiers.

Apart from that we've always sung 'flaked' in this song and we're not going to stop now!

Les


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

Gibe. Jybe however you say it has the advantage of being universal Meaning "duck" theres a long lump of wood or metal swinging over at head height.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:16 PM

That's why they call that "large lump" a BOOM.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:42 AM

This thread may be getting unbearably tedious to some but allow me (try and stop me!) to quote some more from THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA with regard to "fake" which they define as "a complete turn of a rope when it has been coiled either on deck or on a drum. When a rope has been properly faked down, it is clear for running, each fake running out without fouling those below it." "Flake" was earlier defined as coils laid out for inspection rather than running.

Linguists might argue that they are the same term, with the "l" having worn away over the last hundred years through hard usage by those who actually sail.;-)


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM

Both are old terms as noted in the OxfordED (my post of long ago). Fake is also allied to the Scottish faik (I made a mistake and called it Scandanavian). No one seems to have the Navy Seamans Manual at hand to find current naval usage but fake is the proper term as far as I can see. All those cds with "flake" will have to be withdrawn and recycled as Lawrence Welk schottisches and performers who use flake will immediately be apprehended and placed in public stocks until they recant.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:07 PM

When we fake out our lines, we lay them on the deck in big long zigzags shoved up close next to each other, but not overlapping, so they will be clear and ready to run. When we flake our sails, we fold them in sort of accordian pleats laid on top of each other on top of the boom. The boltrope makes sort of a zigzag, so this leads me to believe that the two terms were originally the same, but which came first I wouldn't try to guess.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Andytwodogs
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:46 PM

Yes, I have heard the term flaked for coiling a rope, a thick rope can be a cable, Iv'e never come across the term faked in this context but(tongue firmly in cheek) the atlantic does separate the languages!

Iv'e not come across it with regard to sails, but have 'brailed them up' and of course reefed them.

Just another bit to throw in

Andy


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:28 PM

Tha Admiralty manual of seamanship 1964 Volume one uses the term 'fake', and states on pg 121 that the term 'flake' is incorrect for one of the turns of rope when stowed or coiled.

The instructions 'To fake down a rope' are to ensure that a rope which may have to be paid out quickly is faked down in as long fakes as the stowage allows, and falls should be faked down from bight to the end. When faked a rope does not require as many turns as when coiled and it will therefore run out with less chance of becoming snarled. Care should be taken that each bight at the end of a fake is laid under that immediately preceding it to ensure a clear run - that is a clear run from the bight, not the end.

The term is also used for the way hose is stowed in a cradle. The hose is flattened and laid in the cradle in a straight zig zag starting at the hydrant end and ending with that closest to the spray pipe.

There is a little ditty to identify the pipes carrying water of different types and pressures:

Fire mains are red, my love Sea water is blue Fresh water is green, my love, But not so green as you - oo - o -oo - o.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM

Andy - As I have always understood matters to brail a sail was to stow a loosefooted sail (ie no boom) up against the gaff or sprit ( see the Thames Barges, or Medway Bawleys. As This stow is conducted by hoisting up rather than furrling down on to the boom. It tended to be used by those commercial boats that relied upon minimum crews.

Traditionaly the Thames barge - upto about 150 ton burden was crewed by two men and a dog.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Cobble
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:51 PM

From the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship 1937, word for word:-

FAKE:- A circle or ring formed by coiling a rope.

FLAKE:- To arrange a rope or howser in layers so that it will run clear.

I also was in the RN, dont try to teach your granny to suck eggs :-)

Cobble AB Royal Navy, Thank You.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:34 PM

Coming in rather late, although we use the term 'flake' on the Spirit of New Zealand I always understood the distinction to be as defined by cobble above, 'coiling down' prior to use is 'faking' laying out in long parallel lines for a fast snag free run out is 'flaking'. Nonetheless, I agree with chanteyranger, there is probably no universally 'correct' usage. Go with the term used on the ship you are currently sailing.

On the subject of origins etc, the OED includes in the original (ME) definitions of 'flake' a bundle of parallel threads' which seems to me to be a pretty accurate description of a flaked line.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:56 AM

re: "knots per hour", or "knots an hour"

Appears in at least 4 shanties I know of. Stan Hugill said, "Of course it's wrong, but it never stopped sailors from singing it.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Pete M
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:01 AM

Haven't got the 1964 edition Anne, but the 1951 edition Vol 1 page 99 Para heading To flake down a rope (Fig 88) A rope which may have to be paid out quickly should be flaked down in as long flakes as stowage space allows, etc,

Similarly Vol II page 126 Para headed To pay out a heavy hawser. When paying out a heavy hawser it must be kept under control ....It should be flaked in as long fleets as the deck space permits, ... and in Appendix A Glossary, Fake - a coil in a coiled rope.

Just to add some variety, I presume that what Spaw and others have refered to as 'flemish coils' is cheesing down?

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:28 AM

Pete M.

Aha! "in as long fleets as the deck space..." Where does that one come from - and is it related to the "fleeting" of capstan bars - the origin of which word has baffled me for a long time?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:06 AM

If you "Call all hands to man the capstan." who is going to man the sails? We have always taken liberties with the language, so, flake or fake makes little difference, especially in this day and age.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:19 AM

"Call all hands to man the capstan!" But, Kendall, when the "mudhook's" up and down, don't you then reallocate some crew members to loose the headsails to break free of the bottom?

Looks like we'll never get this ship off the ground, Capt. Kirk. Time to re-boot!


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:23 AM

Calling all hands to man the capstan means, I would guess, that all available manpower not involved in other work should come to the capstan.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:52 AM

There are only so many bars on the capstan, so, with all hands there, it could get quite crowded.

How about, "Call just enough hands.." etc.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM

"Call just enough hands..." doesn't scan as well.

To indulge in a trifle of thread creep on the subject of reefing, I have just read an article in an Aussie magazine called "Windjammer" reviewing a cruise ship called the ROYAL CLIPPER. She is apparently the only five-masted full-rigged ship ever built besides the PREUSSAN, but the resemblence apparently ends there. She is a luxury cruise ship which can carry 200 passengers in great comfort. The editor reprinted parts of the cruise company's press release, largely because the writer was apparently not a sailor and used inaccurate terminology. The editor was not impressed with the ship or the PR guy. The part that caught my attention, however, was the revelation that she has ROLLER REEFING on all sails--the square sails roll up into the yards like window blinds! Shades of Paddy West!


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:49 PM

Love that creep. "Shades of Paddy West" LOL

Can anyone paste in this article so we can have some more "shanty" fodder to scoff.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:43 PM

Ah, now a visit to the remains of the Preussen used to be a regular trip for me when I were a lad and I imagine still is for the youngsters in Dover, if the council or someone hasn't decided that access to the OP's pillboxes etc in the area are dangerous and shut off the path down the cliff.

Sorry Martin can't answer that one. As Wallace Greenslade used to say "I only read this stuff, I don't write it!"

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Cobble
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:58 PM

What happened to my Cadburys Flake.

Cobble.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:18 PM

Any well organized ship has a watch, quarter and station bill, and the different evolutions such as raising anchor, warping ship, making sail, trimming sail, helm watches etc., are manned by people who know in advance what they have to do. Odd lots such as the cook and the Supercargo are refered to as "idlers" since they don't have action stations for the various evolutions used in normal operations.

A


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Melani
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM

Charley, I have it on regular old paper and couldn't find it online. It's from a last-year's issue. The ship boasts a crew of 105, only 20 of whom are needed to actually sail the thing, because of all the fancy labor-saving devices. The other 85 crew members spend their time pouring wine, serving meals, and tidying up. From the press release: "All sails are raised, lowered and positioned from the security of the deck by skilled sailors who use power winches...No seaman ever needs to climb the masts to handle sails." They add that two of the lowest sails are handled in the traditional way for demonstration purposes, and that passengers are encouraged to go aloft and help out. Passengers are also encouraged to ascend to the top, wearing safety harness and belayed from below by a crew member, to take advantage of the "all-weather comfortable teak settee" that has been installed there for their comfort while taking in the view. They can also have the steward hoist up a glass of champagne. The running rigging is described as "what gives support to each mast against sideways strain...Other rope halyards at each mast form slanting rope ladders, or ratlines..." At this point the editor says in parentheses, "I am not making any of this up." There is, in fact, a photo of the teak settee.

For the further amusement of Mudcatters, the editor has written a chantey:

The Flash Packet

'Tis of a flash packet--a packet o' fame,
She's a rorty flash packet; ROYAL CLIPPER's her name.
She's bound to the west'ard where salty winds blow,
Bound away in ROYAL CLIPPER to the west'ard we'll go.


Cho: And it's No! Nay! Never!

No more hazing for me!

When I want to go sailing,

In ROYAL CLIPPER I'll be!

We'll go if the lottery one day we might win,
For to be on ROYAL CLIPPER costs plenty of tin.
The cash it do take for to go on a cruise
Would keep an old shellback in a lifetime of booze.

Leave behind your old gansy and tarry old smock,
For the rig of the day is black tie and best frock.
Forget your lobscouse and the cook's cracker hash,
On board ROYAL CLIPPER that passes for gash.

We'll stroll round the deck wearing all our posh togs,
With no watches to keep we can all sleep like logs.
We'll sit all the day just admiring the view,
Taking everything easy--just like the crew!

She's five lofty masts which reach up to the sky,
But the sailors don't go there--you might well ask why.
They've got gadgets and gizmos to do all the work,
And if these do it for you, then why be a b***?

There's hardly no need for to hand, reef or steer,
So the sailors can sit with a glass of cold beer.
They don't stir to reef when it comes to a blow,
'Cos they wind up their sails from the deck far below.

There's no "Man the braces!" and no pulley-haul,
And the work for a sailor is near b****r all.
They're push-button seamen with little to do,
But they wear their striped jerseys and look like a crew.

ROYAL CLIPPER is big, and ROYAL CLIPPER is fast,
With her holds full of toffs and her decks full of masts.
Yes, she's a flash packet; the best that there be,
BUT SHE AIN'T GOT THE GRACE OF A CLIPPER AT SEA!

It seems to be to the tune of "The Wild Rover". Have fun. And by the way, what is the word "b***" that rhymes with "work"? I'm not familiar with Aussie slang.


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:27 AM

Thanks for that Melani,

the missing term is presumably 'berk' though why anyone would wish to asterisk this out is beyond me.

Just to totally confuse you, 'Berk' is pronounced as spelt, but is originally a contraction of the rhyming slang "Berkshire/Berkerley hunt" both pronounced "Bark...". Nonetheless a great modern shanty.

I was intrigued by your original posting and did a quick search to try and find anything to add, and found that amongst other delights, this company offers 'clothing optional' cruises and there are pictures to prove it! I must admit the last thing I would want on a sailing ship was anything swinging free to get caught by any passing line. Gives a whole new visualisation to "Irish pennant" though.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Terry K
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 04:59 AM

"no seaman ever needs to climb the masts to handle sails"

- hah, a likely story - given the number of times I've witnessed an unfortunate crewman up the mast releasing the stuck roller furling kit on sailing cruisers, the most recent being just a week ago.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 09:42 AM

A simply amazing find, Melani! Thanks ever so much. It certainly belongs in that fine suite of songs beginning with "Paddy West" and continuing on with Jon Campbell's "Tanqueray Martini-O." Let this thread drift where it may. Lord knows what flotsam we'll run across.;-)

Oh, does anyone have a clue what that other "B-word" which ends in "r"? Of course, "bugger all".


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: radriano
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:39 PM

Nice thread creep, Melani. Just driftin' with the tide..


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:41 PM

The 1964 MoS is the only one I have - and only Vol one anyway - and personally I say flaked for any vertical stacking of cable or sail 'cos it looks like flakes, and fake down for making the long loops of cable or whatever on a deck or in a locker. I heard faked down from a lifeboat man back in the 60's when describing how the line for a rocket was laid in the box - wonder what whalermen did to their harpoon lines.

Most modern yachties don't use any vocabulary the skipper doesn't know, at least not in his hearing, so terms vary from one vessel to another - and a lot of skippers just bugger off below with a 'get that lot stowed away' and reappear dressed to go ashore for jollies just after the decks are washed down.

I started to sail in the early 70's, so the modern vessels with their GPS and roller reefing isn't doing it the right way at all.

Quite a few chaps didn't think that clothing was required once past the fairway bouy. From what I remember it only took a few moments out in the wind for anything dangling to take in a couple of reefs which greatly reduced the possibility of something vital getting caught up.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: bobbi
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 04:48 PM

Tuna fish is FLAKED... I say flaked! tsk!


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: GUEST,Doc
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

Not all "window shade" sails are of modern design. A few years back I owned a 66-foot, 32-ton steel, pilot-house schooner, designed and built by a Belgian maritime historian as a replica of a nineteenth century French fishing schooner. She was gaff-rigged and had the usual complement of for-and-aft sails, including main and foresail, main-gaff topsail and and fore-gaff topsail, flying jib and staysail, and a small main-topmast staysail called a "fisherman".

But strangely, there was in addition a square sail suspended from a yardarm on the foremast. The yard, of a length twice the beam of the vessel, was situated just slightly above the point at which the gaff met the foremast and the sail was quite large, falling nearly to the deck. The sail was furled vertically, so that it lay not against the yard, but against the mast. It was only flown (with or without the foresail) when going downwind but was emminently convenient for the reason that, having removed the gaskets, it was opened and closed like two wings of a center-mounted drape, with one halyard rigged to pull both halves of the sail head out to their respective ends of the yard, and a second halyard (or "hauldown"), hauling the heads of the sail back in against the mast.

I've not seen anything like it before or since, but my experience with square sails has been more limited than I might have liked. If anyone knows the terminology for that kind of sail and rig I'd be very curious to learn it.

Thanks for the drift in this direction, Melani. This whole topic, which arose from an objection I made during a recording session to radriano about "flaking" the cable, (an objection I now realize was entirely too dogmatic), has generated an incredible amount of information, very pleasantly imparted by a fascinating group of people. Whereas I had taken the position that there was a term of global if not cosmic correctness, it has now been made abundantly clear to me that the nautical terms "fake" and "flake" have changed from ship to ship, captain to captain, navy to navy, and even, as evidenced by quite opposit statements in successive editions of the same naval manual, from time to time. On reflection it seems, as several have said, that safety and expediency will be served as long as it is agreed what terms shall be used on a given ship at a given time, and that in this case the existance of a single "true, traditional meaning" was a figment of my fevered imagination.

Doc


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Subject: RE: Need help with sea term: flaked or faked
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 03:19 PM

Nicely said. Now let's cheerily stow this thread below.


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