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BS: Space program - real or faked?

Little Hawk 02 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM
JohnInKansas 02 Aug 01 - 06:09 AM
Amos 01 Aug 01 - 08:51 PM
Little Hawk 01 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,petr 01 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM
SharonA 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM
JohnInKansas 01 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM
Bill D 31 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM
Wolfgang 31 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM
Gareth 27 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM
Gareth 27 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM
DougR 27 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,JTS 27 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM
DougR 27 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM
Wolfgang 27 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM
Wolfgang 27 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM
rea 27 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,smoking man 27 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM
Little Hawk 27 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM
English Jon 27 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM
JohnInKansas 27 Jul 01 - 03:33 AM
DougR 26 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM
Grab 26 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM
UB Ed 26 Jul 01 - 07:35 AM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM
MMario 25 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM
Rick Fielding 25 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Smoking man 25 Jul 01 - 10:28 AM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 24 Jul 01 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Souter 24 Jul 01 - 08:12 PM
BanjoRay 24 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM
Amos 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM
M.Ted 24 Jul 01 - 02:14 PM
Gareth 24 Jul 01 - 01:49 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM
Mark Clark 24 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM

John - Actually, as a boy and an adolescent I did firmly believe that "There's nobody out there.". I also firmly believed that "there is no God" and "there is only physical reality". Why? Because I grew up in a family that had such beliefs, and because I was a very intellectual and scientifically-minded kid, interested in empirical evidence, as mentioned by Amos.

Later in life I changed my mind due to actual experiences. I now believe in God, in spiritual aspects of life that are not materially based (although they project into and affect, indeed create, the material world...), and I believe that there is definitely somebody out there...quite a variety of them, in fact.

It seems that the world just wouldn't leave me alone in the comfort of my empirical beliefs, but insisted on confronting me with alternative experiences which brought my chosen assumptions crashing down.

This, of course, will not suffice to convince anyone else of anything, because it has been my experience, but not necessarily theirs.

The notion that "there's nobody out there" is no longer a tenable or conceivable one for me, which is why I didn't include it in my list. The notion that "they're out there, but they haven't got this far yet" falls in the same category.

However, you are right, unquestionably, that everyone has an agenda, and that it colors what they say with hidden messages. That's why it's so hard for people to communicate without getting ticked off at each other, because they don't like hidden agendas that contradict their own hidden agendas. The moment they sense one, their back goes up. One man's brilliant perception is another man's utter foolishness.

And so it goes...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:09 AM

Little Hawk:

Not the message hidden in what "appears."

The "agenda" of the person who believes.

I note that your list of reasons for no contact does not include "There's nobody out there." (Or they haven't gotten this far yet.).
Some might think you "want" to believe we are not alone?
Not accusing you of anything, mind you. Just trying to clarify that it seems, often, that what one wants to see has more real effect on what is "seen" or "believed" than what is actually there.

And yes, there are probably more than enough faeries right here to keep the locals busy.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:51 PM

Problem is, LH, that the human mind is infinitely plastic and capable of generating experience, as well as recording experience and recording experiences it itself has generated. While your arguments are perfectly sensible, the tendency of the western intellectual community under 'iffy propositions' like these is to resort to some sort of empiricism. And there is really precious little empirical evidence to make your explanation a preferable one! That said, of course, it may -- in fact probably IS -- the case that so-called empiricism is just a convenience and fundamentally not the convincing final court that it is used for. But it is a fairly robust convention and shouldn't be thrown out lightly.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM

SharonA - Good point! I am sure the space program was not faked, especially the failures...but I think there were some aspects kept secret about what DID happen on some occasions. I think they know way more than they are telling us. That doesn't mean they faked what they ARE telling us, necessarily.

JohnInKansas - I don't know about any "hidden" messages...? I know some people think crop circles are a hidden message, but I have no strong opinion on that matter at this point.

One thing that always strikes me...when we write a fictional story about some alien world, we virtually always picture it as a world with a single, united society with a homogenious culture, and all that. Well, look at this world. It's incredibly fragmented and disunited. The old "take me to your leader" thing could have about 180,000 completely different results, depending on where you landed and whom you spoke to...and then which language would you have to know in order to speak to them? The mind boggles. This planet could be pretty damn confusing to an interplanetary visitor with peaceful intentions.

One with warlike intentions, of course, wouldn't care, and would just do what was necessary to overcome resistance and take over.

Fortunately, that hasn't happened.

I think the most likely explanations for why contact has not been more open up to now are:

1. This place isn't ready for it, and the aliens know it.

2. This place isn't important enough for them to bother.

3. We are presently too dangerous, too paranoid, and too disunited to be worth dealing with.

4. Or all of the above.

Plus a hundred other possibilities.

GUEST - How do you know there aren't faeries around right now in nature? (Quite regardless of aliens) I have read a number of interesting books about faeries, and other forms of nature spirits. What's that got to do with space aliens?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM

I havent read most of this either but it reminded me of the recent NOVA documentary that said the first man in space was not Yuri Gagarin but rather another Soviet Cosmonaut who was also a aerospace engineer and either is still alive or was until recently. Gagarin flew only a couple of weeks later and apparently the reason he was chosen as the first was that politically he was a better choice and also younger good looking etc. Ill see if I can look that up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 PM

I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread, so maybe someone has pointed this out already, but...

Why would anyone believe that the US government would WANT to fake the FAILURES of the space program such as the Apollo fire, the Apollo 13 mission and the Challenger explosion? Not to mention the little Mars explorer that couldn't, the problems with the Hubble telescope, etc., etc....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM

JOhn in Kansas , I don't think wishfullment is the motivation. I think aliens are the 20th centuries fairies. Some believe aliens are gonna land on the capital steps and despense wisdom, others think they are gonna anally probe them , funny world views , but , believed on merits other than tapping their shoes together " iwish it where , I wish it were"


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

An old story that I vaguely recall (I think it may once have been a TV episode)
relates how the aliens landed.
The leaders of earth were iformed that this planet was "kinda in the way,"
They were about to destroy it; but they had seen some signs of progress, and potential value in our earth population.

We weren't really doing too well, but they were willing to give us another chance.

They said they would go away for a couple of years.

When they came back, they would decide whether we had "done better."
If we had done better, they would let us continue to exist. If not, they would destroy this planet that was "kinda in the way."

This naturally scared the p... out of everybody.

World leaders met.
Treaties were signed.
Everybody tried really hard to do better.

World Peace Came!

And then the aliens came back.

They said - "You were doing so well at developing the weapons that we need
FOR OUR INTERGALACTIC WAR.
You've done NOTHING useful in the time while we were gone."

"BYE"


One of the things that seriously detracts from most arguments presenting "unshakable opionions" that we hear from "true believers," in almost any situation, is the very consistent existence of a disguised "message." The "If I really believe THIS, then it will prove that THAT is true" seems almost always to be present.
Hidden, even to the believer, agendas

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM

well, Little Hawk has made the point...VERY impressively....that some people have seen things that they are unable to easily relate to known phenomena.

And I am perfectly willing to admit that, given our relative newness to scientific knowlege, there certainly 'could' be things out there that we can barely imagine now.

I am also aware that so VERY many reports of alien phenomena are pure mistakes, delusions, hype, fuzzy photos poorly interpreted, and sometimes, total fraud....that I simply will have to do as LH says, and wait till it happens to ME.

If an alien ship decides it's "time", and settles down on the Mall in front of the Air & Space Museum, wilh newsreel cameras running, then..........well......

There is a very important point to make to Little Hawk and others who are now sure.....'not' believing you is not the same as DISbelieveing you.....convincing proof simply requires more than adamant sworn testimony.

I, for one, TRULY hope LH is right, and that 'proof' happens in my lifetime!....in the meantime, I can only shrug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM

Little hawk,

I only used the satellite example to argue that the man doesn't really know what he is talking about otherwise he should have mentioned the energy problem involved.

The pyhsics to place a satellite over Delos is straightforward and well known today. There is only one 'little' problem. You need all the time additional energy as for a helicopter hovering. It can be done in principle but it would be silly.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM

Little Hawk

not to sure
I spent most of my Saturdat Evenings covering behind the Sofa in case the Daleks "Exterminated" me !!

" Oh Klingons on the Starboard Bow,
etc"

I recall one very drunken Barge Race night at Hollow Shore (Faversham Creek) when the assembled Yachties / Old Gaffers, were singing this one in the early hours of the Morning !!!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM

Yeah, Doctor Who was a lot of fun, wasn't it? Personally, I think the Daleks were one of the Pentagon's less successful secret projects...:-)

They definitely were not advanced enough to be of alien origin.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM

Oh dear,

Reality is in danger of breaking out.

The Tardis awaits, and the Doctor.

Who did you say ?

Profoundly,

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

You appeared to be encouraging folks to go to Wal-Mart because they were having a terrific sale on today! I just assumed you were not a big fan of Wal-Mart, that's all.

OH! I'll bet you were just kidding!

Doug


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM

JTS - I saw something undeniable. I am not going to talk about it here anymore, because it doesn't achieve anything useful to do so. Believe me. With all these things, you have to actually be there...or you have to get the story from someone whom you already know and trust so well that you simply cannot doubt their word...and you don't know me that well.

Besides, I get so angry at the endless nitpicking of people whose emotional health seems to be based on not believing I could possibly have seen or correctly interpreted what I saw...when they don't know a damn thing about it (not having been there)...I get so angry that it's bad for my health, okay?

I hope you see something yourself, instead. That would be much more convincing than anything I could possibly tell you. And...there are hundreds of books and testimonials out there from people with more impressive credentials than mine.

Wolfgang - Ah, now I see who Bill Kaysing is... I figure he's either out to swindle people (starting at a $25 bid)...or maybe he's a true believer...in which case I think he is entirely, hugely mistaken in his belief. As I've said before on this forum, people are capable of believing or not believing absolutely anything, no matter how incredible it is. And that includes apparently sane and rational and well educated and highy qualified people too...in many cases. I've met some, including my departed uncle, the nuclear physicist, who figured he knew everything.

Doug - I boycott WalMart and I last ate at a McDonalds...um...well, several years ago. It was in a weak moment, but there you are. It's not real food anyway, it's a cheap form of entertainment, sort of like bad pizza. I appreciate your sense of humour, as always... :-)

Wolfgang (again) - you point out that "A geostationary satellite above Delos cannot exist (if it orbits freely only under gravity influence)for simple physical reasons."

Uh-huh... Yes... Fine.... Given our present technology. Now why do you necessarily assume that it MUST have to "orbit freely only under gravity influence". Hmmmm? Why? Because we can't do it any other way than that? We also can't manuever a vehicle at extraordinary speeds and suddenly stop dead or reverse direction instantaneously, without destroying the vehicle, can we? There are some folks out there who can.

We also can't travel to other star systems yet, can we?

Why do you assume that nobody else can?

The American Indians might have made some similarly reckless and optimistic assumptions about the limitations of European weaponry and sailing ships back in the 1500's, if they had given the matter much thought prior to the actual encounter.

Just a possibility.

Here's a proposition: If there have been extra-terrestrials monitoring our activities for some time...even for millenia...and if they are not harmfully inclined toward us, but actually interested in our advancement...then would they not be extremely interested in our first primitive attempts to explore space? And why would they not observe those attempts? I would if I was them. I would be interested very much in any planet that was moving out of its primitive stage of planetary development and standing on the verge of effective space travel....getting ready, in fact, to join a much larger community.

I would also be extremely wary of a human race that is aiming hundreds of nuclear missiles around the world at each other, and testing the damn things, and fighting numerous wars with each other, and also attempting to shoot down friendly visiting craft in their airspace. Damn right I would. I would seriously consider quarantining such a planet, if necessary, until the irresponsible idiots who are running it grow up!

We may presently be among the most dangerous morons in the entire semi-civilized universe...and we are on the verge of effective interplanetary travel. Such people need watching on a regular basis, I would think.

Again, just a possibility.

Re: the book.... There's a lot of heavy mathematics in Chatelain's book, and I feel that you are better equipped to deal with it than I. Much better so.

However, you don't want to waste your time reading it. I understand perfectly. I don't want to waste my time reading romance novels or the Wall Street Journal or Billy Graham's latest book on salvation. We all have different ways of evaluating what we think of as "wasted time", and that's why most of us remain much the way we already are...barring some extraordinary event that alters our personal perspective in a really notable way.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM

LH,

What exactly did you see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM

LH? You do business with Wal-Mart??? I'm shocked! You will totally disillusion me if you confess to eating McDonald's hamburgers!

:>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM

Bill Kaysing

I haven't read Chatelain's book and I doubt I shall. I've read two long critiques and excerpts from chapter 4 (the one with the Maltese cross in the Agean) and that was enough to convince me that it would be lost time to read the whole book. Not for the conclusions that might be contrary to my convictions (I actually love reading books contrary to my convictions for I can learn more from them) but for the man doesn't get the simplest facts right. He's postulating that ancient astronauts have managed to place a geostationary satellite above Delos (a Greek island). A geostationary satellite above Delos cannot exist (if it orbits freely only under gravity influence)for simple physical reasons. And I have a prejudice that someone who gets his basis physics wrong cannot be trusted in other parts as well.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM

And I have no idea who Bill Kaysing is...

I am the person whom I consider reliable.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM

Okay, Wolfgang, you may be right for all I know...I was not there at NASA to witness it, after all...but try reading the book. It's got some very interesting stuff in it. What harm can it do you? You could still decide not to believe it after all, in any case, after reading it.

Do you realize how silly blind faith is, no matter which side of the issue it is on? I'm sure you do.

So read the accounts of those who hold a different viewpoint, and give it some fair consideration.

Remember, the reason I believe in alien visitors is because of something I saw not because of something I heard or read about or was told by my chosen peer group.

Naturally, I am curious to follow up on my own direct experience in any way I can. I don't know that what Chatelain says is true...but perhaps it is. What if? What would be so terrible if reality is a little different in some way than what your lifetime of training has taught you?

If I had not seen UFO's myself, I would probably be talking about something else right now, instead of butting heads with you endlessly.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Little Hawk,

I do wonder why you have not yet mentioned Bill Kaysing who should to you be as reliable as Chatelain. Bill Kaysing has speculated that the astronauts Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee have been deliberately burned to death because they 'knew too much'.

Maurice Chatelain was not a top level NASA scientist, involved at a high position in the Apollo space program, from its inception right through to the final missions but was an low-level engineer employee of a NASA sub-contractor and he was not longer employed at the time of the Apollo 11 flight. But the UFO-scene lunatic fringe has never cared about facts when facts could come into collision with a good story.

I'm rather tired of these discussions but I think I'd just mention one of many scientific theories for the sightings of astronauts regarding 'companions': Debris travelling with the same speed.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

smoking man - I don't think he did feel entirely safe...but he did feel fairly safe, because he had returned to France and published the book there, instead of in the USA.

He is fairly reticent about a number of things...showing a reluctance to discuss the alien connection beyond a fairly general synopsis.

He also states that a number of UFO researchers in the US that he knew personally had received death threats and had been visited by people who advised them to shut up or pay the consequences, and that a few had indeed died unexpectedly, and that all their research materials had vanished.

I think he did feel safe, on the whole, in France.

The usual story.

Buffy Sainte-Marie was completely blacklisted off North American radio for over 10 years (due to certain protest songs she recorded), but she was able to pursue her career without interference in Europe and Asia. I guess the "long arm" only reaches so far...

It has a lot to do with just how much public attention someone manages to get. I don't think Chatelain got much. As long as only a few people are interested, why should the government worry? A few people can always be brushed off as cranks, and soon forgotten.

As to whether the aliens could be visiting or not...well, one can theorize about that until one is blue in the face. They either are or they aren't. Having seen their ships myself in the late 60's I know they are. What I don't know is...from where?

One thing for sure...if there is life "out there" (and there is)...it WILL visit eventually. Ask the Tahitians, the Hawaiians, and the other once isolated peoples of this world about that...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

LH ... Alien space craft..... Apollo 13 .... Santa Claus ... I think the fake moon landing would be easier to cover up. A lot of astronauts have claimed to see unexplained phenomena. But that would seem to be stretching it. I want to belive you, but I have seen a classified document saying that WalMart does not have sales. They have everyday low prices. Talk about science fiction.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: rea
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM

ask you friends how they feel about Challenger. that was a conspiracy. The engineers knew that the low temps from the night before had and could cause malfunctions in the materials which exploded, and they called nasa and told them to hold off. and nasa didnt because they were afraid of loosing funding. and then they tried to make it sound like a very complex, hard to understand problem. and it wasnt. and people died. tell you friends to tell the sons of the teacher who died that the space program doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,smoking man
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM

Little Hawk, how come this guy felt safe coming out with such top secret info? I have agreed with you so far in this thread , but , I have a hard time with this one . I heard once that if the sun was the size of a basketball, the earth would be the size of a pea and the nearest solar system outside the Milky way would still be more than 10 real miles away and the likelyhood that there would be a planet currently supporting life in that nearest solar system is slim at best. And even less likely still that it would be intelligent life that has advanced to sophisticated space travel, Our own space travel being primitave at present.
I believe that there is life out there. I just don't believe they visit. I also believe that the quality of UFO evidence has grown and changed in direct porportion with Hollywood type special effects. As far as our Ancestors coming from outer space, I find that idea silly and it always beckons the question "who put the Aliens there?".
Keep on searching , the truth is out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM

Yeah. I'd just as soon catch a nasty disease as own a cell phone. As if life wasn't stressful enough already...

I have just finished reading a fascinating book published in 1975 in France by Maurice Chatelain. He was a top level NASA scientist, involved at a high position in the Apollo space program, from its inception right through to the final missions.

The book is full of technical and mathematical details that are too much for me to deal with, since I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist...but here's the kicker:

Chatelain states, with no doubt whatsoever, that every single one of the American space missions was shadowed at either close range or longer range by alien spacecraft. That those craft were clearly observed, tracked, and photographed on numerous occasions by the astronauts (names and occasions are given, as to when and by who). That the astronauts sometimes referred to the presence of alien vessels as "Santa Claus", so as to not alert the public (they made it sound kind of like a cute joke). That Mission Control enforced absolute silence on the astronauts, as far as making any public statements about these incidents, so as to avoid "causing a general panic" (presumably...hell, I would have celebrated!). That Appollo 13 was probably disabled deliberately by one of these alien craft because it was transporting a nuclear device to the moon in order to do seismic testing there...and evidently the aliens decided that that was not permissible. Apollo 13 had to abort and return early to the Earth.

Now take a deep breath and think about it. Then don't bitch and complain to me...just read the book, if you can find it. It was translated from the French language into English in 1977, and published by Doubleday & Co under the title "Our Ancestors Came From Outer Space". It makes Von Daniken look like a space cowboy. Maurice Chatelain is a very serious and persuasive witness.

If your state of mind does not permit even contemplating this kind of thing, then ignore my post and carry on as usual. There is doubtless nothing out there that they haven't told you all about already, and WalMart has got a great sale on today...

Toodle-oo.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

Cell Phones.....Anyone who will put a microwave trasmitter next to their skull for extended periods of time deserves what they get. Think of it a evolution in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM

Cell Phones.....Anyone who will put a microwave trasmitter next to their skull for extended periods of time deserves what they get. Think of it a evolution in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: English Jon
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM

Good God - I wouldn't drink American Beer even if it's country of origin did exist. Actually, that's bollocks. Of course I'd drink it (in the abscence of meths.)

EJ (Very thirsty)


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:33 AM

Be afraid of something REAL!

New Federal (US) regulations require all cell-phone servers to be able to locate any person using a cell-phone withing a very short space.
The purported purpose of this regulation is to allow emergency response when a person reports a problem.
A pilot program has been launched to monitor cell phone traffic on the streets and highways of a major metropolis, in order to continously monitor traffic conditions, in real time, so as to improve the flow of traffic

THEY KNOW WHERE YOU ARE!

But the thing we must REALLY be afraid of, is the coming believe that IT IS YOUR PATRIOTIC DUTY TO USE YOUR CELL-PHONE IN TRAFFIC, because it helps to avoid traffic jams!

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM

MMario: you were in the same room with these folks? A dozen of them? Were you nervous? I suppose they DO believe there was a holocaust though, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

As Pterry and Neil Gaiman pointed out in "Good Omens", the same ppl who believe that the government has this highly-planned coverup going on also believe that the government are all cretins and are not intelligent enough to run the country...

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: UB Ed
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:35 AM

MMario, you're "friends" sound like a bunch of idiots. Learn this for them:

Man On the Moon

Mott the Hoople and the game of Life
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Andy Kaufman in the wrestling match
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Monopoly, 21, checkers, and chess
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Fred Blassie and a breakfast mess
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Let's play Twister, let's play Risk
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
I'll see you in heaven if you make the list
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are we losing touch

{Refrain}
If you believe
They put a man on the moon, man on the moon
If you believe
There's nothing up their sleeve, then nothing is cool

Moses went walking with a staff of wood
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Newton got beaned by the apple good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Egypt was troubled by the horrible asp
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Charles Darwin had the gall to ask
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are you having fun

{Refrain}

Here's a little agit for the never believer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Here's a little ghost for the offering
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Here's a truck stop instead of St. Peter's
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Mr. Andy Kaufman's gone wrestling
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Now Andy did you hear about this one
Tell me are you locked in the punch
Andy are you goofing on Elvis
Hey baby, are we losing touch

{Refrain lots}


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

"Lifelessness is the great enemy" - Bob Dylan

Nice thoughts there, smoking man.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM

rick - me too, me too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Morning Mario.

Jeez, I don't know. I was thinking that at least two or three folks would come in (even anonymously) and SERIOUSLY tell us why they DO believe that the space stuff was faked. Not a one. Now I'm gettin' worried about the company YOU'RE keeping.

Why not print this out and pass it around at your next get-together. Then DUCK!!

Rick (not my real name!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Smoking man
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:28 AM

I believe their motivation for their odd beliefs is anti-science. Science's greatest accomplishment is putting a man on the moon. So being reactionary against science would make one who can't articulate his/her problem with science, want to pull down the curtain and show the wizard as what he is, a charleton.They want to do this because they feel threatened by science. Science types have accused their beliefs of being superstition for as long as there has been Science. Science has many True Believers,Science beaters and They ,like Bible beaters, are annoying.
The Nihilist Church of Galileo and later day Scientists.
Folks who think reason or common sense are synonyms for science
folks who think the Christ story is a myth , but, Galileo was REALLY crucified for his beliefs.
Folks who don't discern the diffrence between knowledge and wisdom
Folks who think the big bang theory even hints at anything that resembles an explanation for anything
Folks who are learning to speak Klingon
Folks who think they are not participating in a belief system when they use "It's a scientific Fact" like an weapon in argument and frequently are practicing blind faith in these "facts".
folks who think science can ever go that last mile and know the universe mechanically, ignoring the true mystical nature of the place


Please note I didn't mention anyone acctually validly practicing SCIENCE. Just the cult of Scientific Dogma, and also let me say that I am not a fan of the oppositions Dogma either. The western world is so dualist in thought patterns that everything gets setup as polar opposites.Science Vs. Religion, dems vs reps, us vs them. Many people just get caught up in the tides of one camp vs the other. They don't recognize the motivation behind their belief so they get into some strange places.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM

The thing about "the sheer number of people who would have to keep their mouths shut" doesn't necessarily work like that...

example: there have been a great many individuals from various government agencies (covert and otherwise) in the USA and elsewhere willing to testify in public that they have either seen UFO's (alien vehicles, I mean) or know about a coverup of same. These people have appeared in public forums, before the press, over and over again, but....it seems to be ignored or quickly forgotten by most people...or never noticed in the first place.

This is largely because the mainstream media do not focus on it very long, if at all...because they are busy marketing Hollywood movies, Nintendo games, and events like the O.J.Simpson trial instead.

And maybe it's because they've been instructed to do just that...or not...I don't know. I do know that there is not much money to be made most of the time through UFO disclosures (a little, but not much...).

So...a lot of people haven't kept their mouths shut about that one...and it didn't make a dang bit of difference to the non-believers.

Not that I'm suggesting the space program was faked. I'm just suggesting it's fairly easy to maintain either belief or non-belief in a conventional notion in the majority of the public, despite people not keeping their mouths shut. Most people already have their minds made up, and it's just business as usual out there. Eat your burgers, guzzle your pop, and don't worry your head about the weird stuff.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:32 PM

Mmario? Even intelligent people can be paranoid. Some people think that everything is a conspiracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:12 PM

I don't understand. I mean, sure, I can believe the Government and Military would do this, but how can ANYONE believe that they have the Brains to do it? Assuming no one told. I mean, the shear number of people who would have to keep their mouth shut, even when telling would gain them big money, is astounding. But the government probably couldn't pull of a coverup like this even if they cold keep everyone from talking. They're just not that smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM

As one who's done the raft trip, I can tell you this - Pees are the only thing you're allowed to leave down the Grand Canyon. Everything else must be transported out.

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

Yep, Amos, something convinced them. It would be interesting to know what it was.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM

LH: The 'fact' that "we are all faking life in some way" does not cause ALL of us to go around accusing others of faking. I submit that for Mario's dozen good humans and true to all come together in a consensus of deceit, projected onto such a large class of "others" from their perspective, that they must indeed have something inside them generating the concept rather more strongly than the average bear.

Smoking: Let's step outside and have a cigarette, pal, and talk about this. The Illuminati want our script, and we the Projectorii have it. We want the Illuminati to confess what they have been doing in public, with hard evidence and documentation, including those pieces of hardware from a highly advanced alien civilization. If you'll arrange to have these delivered to the front steps of the United States Senate ... wait ... better make that the Con...no...wait... White H...hmmmm....the Smitsonian Insititute in Washington D.C., I will be happy to give you all remaining copies of the script you have been living by, including the part that says you receive this offer and just laugh at it at first and then suddenly....

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM

M.Ted - Well, at least I'm consistent... :-)

Reminds me of the Captain Kirk method of confusing hostile computers..."I always lie. Everything I say is a lie. In fact, even that was a lie."

Bdee, bdee, bdee....sproing!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

There certainly are p's in the Grand Canyon. Those magnificent yellow shafts sparkling in the sun as they plummet to the depths below!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:14 PM

Little Hawk,knowing Catspaw, he probably was talking about a "pee" in the Grand Canyon. All I know is that everything you know is wrong!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:49 PM

Damn it McGrath - Thats another childhood dream shattered !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM

That's an unassailable line of reasoning, Mark.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

English Jon, I can conclusively prove that the U.S.A actually exists. Just drink a beer from a major U.S. distributor and then drink a beer (or as many as you like) from any other country. Surely you will agree, no one in the U.K. would purposely make beer taste as foul as the major U.S. brands. Same goes for Canada, Germany, Czech Republic and so on. In fact, I think it's illegal to make such beer in Germany. I suspect it's just California that doesn't actually exist.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Space program - real or faked?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Oh my, oh my...so many great posts here... :-)

Roger the skiffler - Just my own opinion, but I think anyone who refers to breasts as "boobs" should be shot, pissed on, and run through a trash compactor. A "boob" is a stupid person. "Boobs" are 2 or more stupid people.

Ebbie - It is kind of amazing that MMario found a dozen people who all agreed on something as contentious as this! Usually you can't get a dozen people to agree on anything less basic than that sex is enjoyable or "it's hot out there today". Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

smoking man - Right on, brother!

SeanM - Science is a religion, based upon observation and testing of various observable physical and energetic phenomena, according to a specifically reductionist viewpoint of reality. Within its own parameters it makes perfectly good sense. Outside of them it is as oblivious to actual experience as any other religion. Its high priests do not take kindly to "heretics" or members of other belief systems, and they guard their turf jealously. As the centuries go by, these high priests frequently succeed in demolishing previously "known and proven scientific facts" and replacing them with new ones...a process that will no doubt continue until people stop wondering if Elvis is still alive or not...and even beyond that, I trust.

Spaw - Now just how the hell would you know what "a pea in the Grand Canyon" looks like? I know for a fact that there are no peas in the Grand Canyon. I read it in Scientific American. :-)

Amos - We are ALL faking life in some way!

All of us - Y' know, folks, there is probably NOTHING more hugely appealing to the human ego than to think that one knows something highly significant that very few other people are aware of. It makes you feel really important yourself, and superior..."Oh, if they only knew! The poor deluded fools..." Ah, yes, it's a hard thing to resist, being a TRUE BELIEVER. I accuse all highly opinionated folks, including myself, of this particular mental maneuver...on occasions. We are all, in fact, functionally insane, according to someone else's definition of reality and common sense. Not to mention downright silly...

- LH


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