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Bronson tunes - Child Ballads

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GUEST,Brian Peters 16 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,folkiedave - abroad and cookieless 16 Sep 07 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Marc Bernier 16 Sep 07 - 04:18 PM
Bill D 16 Sep 07 - 09:39 PM
masato sakurai 17 Sep 07 - 12:52 AM
Mary Humphreys 17 Sep 07 - 03:59 AM
Roberto 17 Sep 07 - 04:34 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 07 - 04:52 AM
GUEST,OLDNICKILBY 17 Sep 07 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 07 - 12:54 PM
Folkiedave 17 Sep 07 - 01:08 PM
Bill D 17 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM
Bryn Pugh 19 Sep 07 - 10:39 AM
Mary Humphreys 19 Sep 07 - 12:31 PM
Bryn Pugh 20 Sep 07 - 05:10 AM
GUEST, Sminky 20 Sep 07 - 06:01 AM
Folkiedave 21 Sep 07 - 04:30 AM
dick greenhaus 06 Jul 09 - 08:56 PM
SylviaN 06 Jul 09 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,Jim P 06 Jul 09 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Andymac (just restarted my work PC so cookie 07 Jul 09 - 03:48 AM
Valmai Goodyear 07 Jul 09 - 05:43 AM
dick greenhaus 07 Jul 09 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM
Fred McCormick 07 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Jul 09 - 03:50 PM
Ross Campbell 07 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM
Ross Campbell 07 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Steve Gardham 07 Jul 09 - 05:24 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 07 Jul 09 - 07:41 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM
trayton 08 Jul 09 - 04:03 AM
Fred McCormick 08 Jul 09 - 04:38 AM
Valmai Goodyear 08 Jul 09 - 05:38 AM
Jack Campin 08 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM
BB 08 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM
Songster Bob 08 Jul 09 - 10:42 PM
Bill D 08 Jul 09 - 11:34 PM
karen k 09 Jul 09 - 07:36 AM
Susan of DT 09 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 21 Jul 09 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Adele Treskillard 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM
Valmai Goodyear 22 Jul 09 - 02:01 AM
Brian Peters 22 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM
doc.tom 22 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM
Valmai Goodyear 23 Jul 09 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,The Horse's Mouth 01 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM
EBarnacle 02 Aug 09 - 12:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM

"...and not all of the ballads HAVE extant tunes."

Indeed not; a fair few have little or no history as 'traditional songs' in the way most of us would understand the term. On the other hand, some of them occur in scores of different versions, each with its own distinct tune, which is why to transcribe Bronson would be such an intimidating task. As Bill D said, it all depends on what the questioner actually needs.

Incidentally, I was one of those who purchased a full set of Bronson from Folkiedave, and I am indeed delighted with it - even though it took the sale of some rare books of my own to raise what knowledgable friends have told me was a very fair asking price.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,folkiedave - abroad and cookieless
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for that Brian - it is appreciated. The set of Child I am selling is emphatically not the British poets series!!

Child did that as a sort of "hack-work" by which I mean he was simply paid for writing it (around 1858-59 from memory). It was the researches for that - a lot from secondary sources - which inspired him to do the second work from primary sources which became (if you like) the Child Ballads.

These were published in a limited edition of 1,000 and in ten volumes between 1882 and 1898 in a unbound and uncut set, each one individually numbered. The idea was that you had them cut and then bound yourself after they had all been published.

Bronson´s Traditional Tunes was published 1958 to 1972 but not in equal numbers, so number 4 is rare.

HTH

Dave


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Marc Bernier
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 04:18 PM

Loomis House Press is up to volume III of V now. Just bought the 3, in hard cover. They'r beautiful.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 09:39 PM

Bronson #1 appeared in my college library in about 1961,,,and I kept going back, looking for more until I left there in 1971....and they only had #2. I thought I'd never see the rest....but now I know of 3-4 sets within driving distance ...among friends....I don't think at my age I'll bother trying to own a set.

   I have the Dover set, and the old "British Poets" set...and many, many recordings to listen to....plus the paperback 'condensed Bronson'. I guess I'll manage.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:52 AM

All the volumes of The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1882-1898) are available at Internet Archive.

The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 1, part 1) [nos. 1-28]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 1, part 2) [nos. 29-53]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 2, part 4) [nos. 83-113]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 3, part 5) [nos. 114-155]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 3, part 6) [nos. 156-188]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 4, part 7) [nos. 189-225]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 4, part 8) [nos. 226-265]
The English and Scottish popular ballads (Volume 5, part 10) [Additions etc.]
The English And Scottish Popular Ballads (Vol. I, pts. 1-4) (rpt. Folklore Press/Pageant Book Company, 1956) [nos. 1-113]
The English And Scottish Popular Ballads (Vol. V, pts. 9-10) (rpt. Folklore Press/Pageant Book Company, 1956) [nos. 266-305, and additions]

Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge, eds., English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1904)


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:59 AM

I am another satisfied customer of Folkiedave. The Bronson he sold me was immaculate and worth every penny ( quite a few!)
And I use the books - they haven't gathered dust on my shelves.
Mary


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Roberto
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:34 AM

Folkiedave, I've sent a PM to you, but I think you won't read it, being abroad and cookieless as you say you are. Abroad and cookieless could be a fine title for a faraway ballad. R


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:52 AM

Dave, Do these books - Child/Bronson ever appear on your web-site or is it 'personal callers only'?


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,OLDNICKILBY
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:20 AM

There is an excellent site for finding books at competitive prices and the range is amazing. Try ABEBOOKS, There are often sets of Child on there, it is always worth a look as the stock changes with great rapidity
Dont knock the 1854 edition of British Ballads as there are many songs in there that are not in the 1884 edition.
The last volume ,10, was published much later and is often missing.
I got my 4 vol Bronson and 2 vol Sharp Folk songs of England from there and both have been very useful in giving versions of the songs to my friends
Good Hunting
Old Nic
Young No More


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:54 PM

Usually for Bronson I have a waiting list. There is not much of qa secret to obtaining them I usually purchase them from people´s libvraires when they are selling up, occasionally dealers.

Thus they rarely appear on the website because I have sold them "before I have bought them" if you see what I mean.

I recommend ABE too.

Now I am going to see if I can get a cookie on this computer - internet cafe in Spain.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 01:08 PM

Sorry - that was me again - and please excuse the wobbly typing if any - I am getting used to a Spanish keyboard again.

I apologise in advance for the non updating of the website. The truth is that I bought a huge library in January last year and I needed to sell some books - or so my wife said as she left me vowing never to return until I did. She came back on the strict promise that I would book into a whole rake of festivals (which is the easiest way to get a quick sale of materials).

We can now almost get into the living room again. The website should be updated when I return from this trip, and then I shall start putting stuff onto lists and finally onto ebay.

If it has not sold by then I shall be resigned to the single life.

May Humphreys, thank you for those kind words, I knew when I sold them they had gone to a good home and you and Brian Peters had two of the most immaculate sets i have ever seen.

I am dleighted you are pleased - again if you see what I mean!


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM

Thanks to Masato for reminding us that images of the books ARE available, and though it is nice to have a hard copy in your lap, no one need do without the information and texts. (It is, of course, possible to download the PDF files and print the whole thing....)


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 10:39 AM

When I began my researches [such as they were ! :-)] some 40 years ago, there were some volumes of Bronson's 'Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' in the Henry Watson Music Library, Manchester Central Library, St Peter's Square.

I can't remember whether it was a complete set, but this might be an age thing.

I remember trying to find a tune for 'Willie's Lady'. I do not read music, so it was a case of putting the notes on to a stave, taking it home, deciding which was the bottom note and calling that 'doh', then working through the sol-fa. Tedious, time-consuming, frustrating at times and ponderous, I know, but it worked.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:31 PM

As far as I know, the Henry Watson Music library still has Bronson, though I would appreciate some information on that from any Mancunian who has a reader's ticket.
A colleague of mine who had access to information about Leeds City library said that they were considering throwing their copy out some years ago. We need to have a campaign to keep such important traditional research available to those who want to learn from scholarship of this order. The volumes may not be borrowed frequently, but their importance should not be compared to pulp fiction.
The John Rylands University Library of Manchester used to have a set, but I am not certain that it still does. ( I used to borrow it far more than I ever borrowed Biology books - that was what I was supposed to be reading!). Terry Whelan told me that he bought three volumes from them because the fourth volume was missing, and later found the fourth volume to complete the set from someone in the USA who had failed to return it to the library after completing their studies.
A Manchester Uni student could do a search and let us know. Anyone out there?


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:10 AM

What Mary Humphreys (sut mae, gyfeill ?) said.

Throwing a 'Bronson' out is IMABHO a gross act of vandalism.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:01 AM

I have noticed a worrying trend of late, certainly in my neck of the woods.

In former days our main library would periodically hold a 'sale' of books withdrawn from circulation. It was rather a hit and miss affair, but at least it provided an opportunity to 'rescue' books of musical value from destruction.

These days ALL withdrawn books are sent off immediately to be pulped. You'd have thought the library would have been grateful for the extra income generated by the sales.

I shudder to think how many musical gems have suffered that fate.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:30 AM

I spoke to one of the Print-on-demand publishers not all that long ago. The told me there were no plans to re-issue vols. 3+4 at that time.

As a bookseller, naturally I deplore people having access via the web and or photocopiers.

As a folkie so long as it is not blatantly illegal - well ok!! :-)


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:56 PM

There'll be a formal announcement in a couple of days, but CAMSCO Music has just re-issued (legally) the four volumes of Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads. It will be available in either soft or hard cover, will sell for $40 per volume (soft) and $50 per (hard)


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: SylviaN
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:18 PM

Hi Dick - Great news and full marks for a job well done. Keith and I will have a set each, please. Let us know when we can do the deal.

Sylvia and Keith


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:26 PM

This is fantastic news. Good for you!


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Andymac (just restarted my work PC so cookie
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:48 AM

Dick,

That's great news indeed! Any chances of them being shippable to Scotland?

I'd be grateful if you'd PM me about costs etc once you have time to answer the inevitable flood of requests.

Andy..


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:43 AM

Me too - I've got a birthday coming up.

Valmai


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 11:34 AM

Andymac-
It looks like we'll be able to have them printed in the UK, too---avoiding those godawful carriage costs. I'm working in conjunction with Loomis House--the folks that are issuing the new edition of Child--and we're still ironing out some details.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM

That's great, Dick! Another priceless service to the folkie community!

Will start saving up now....


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM

Dick G. "It looks like we'll be able to have them printed in the UK, too---avoiding those godawful carriage costs."

That's terrific news Dick. Well, the whole project is. But the carriage cost is the big pain in the ass as far as ordering anything of that size from the States is concerned. Any idea when they'll be available over here?

BTW. A salutary tale. Liverpool Central Library reference section once had a complete set. Some years ago, I needed to check same. The librarian had no idea what it was I was after, and no record of anything by anyone called Bertrand Bronson. The best guess I can make is that they were sold in one of the many sales by which Liverpool decimated its priceless book collection. Probably bought by a dealer for around £5-00 per volume. Probably sold on by same dealer for 20+ times what he paid for them. TLF.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 03:50 PM

I don't have an exact UK price as yet, but it should be equivalent to the US prices I mentioned. BTW, the soft cover version is priced at exactly the same amount as the original publication (ca 1972).

I hope to make the formal, detailed announcement later this week.
I, for one, am very excited about the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Fred McC - I had a similar experience in Liverpool many years ago - perhaps mid-70s. The Reference Department card-catalogue showed four volumes of Bronson - only two could be found. Similar gaps were found when I looked for other folk-song collections. The librarian I spoke to had no explanation other than theft - unimaginable to me at the time, but far more expensive volumes have been systematically looted from British libraries, both from public collections and from University libraries where you might expect a higher level of security. But it is also deplorable that reference books such as this have been arbitrarily discarded for space-saving reasons in the way you describe. Equally criminal.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Dick - I meant to add congratulations on getting the Bronson volumes out there again. My own set accumulated gradually over about twenty years, finally being completed by a good friend some years ago. A treasure (to have a friend who would bring such a treasure!)

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 05:24 PM

Dick,
I'd say this is one of the most important announcements for years, possibly since they were first published. In some ways it's even more important than Child itself in that almost everything in Child is available elsewhere and has been much published. Almost everyone is text based so hopefully this availablilty should go a long way to redressing the enormous imbalance between text study and tune study.

I have had a set for several years now, but this is still really exciting news.

I take my hat off to you, sir!
Have you announced this on the Ballad List yet?


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 07:41 PM

Great news. I should be up for a set too.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM

I'm waiting for the first lot to come back from the printer before I really go public with this---I'n cautious enough to ant to be sure that everything came out all right.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: trayton
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:03 AM

You are a hero Dick, Moira and I will be up for a set.

I do hope your name is printed in the credits, somewhere in the books, as an enduring record of this fine service to the folk community.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:38 AM

Ross, you'll be glad to know that Liverpool has a pretty good security system these days. Too late alas, especially as Liverpool's onetime wonderful collection of music books has now been largely dissipated through public sales.

BTW., and apologies for the thread drift, but some time ago I needed to access a scarse and important audio anthology of child ballads. Naturally I enquired of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. Yes, they'd got a copy listed on catalogue, but the entire set had disappeared. The best guess that Malcolm Taylor could make was that they'd been stolen, probably in the 1970s when a lot of stuff got nicked from VWML. Somebody who figured they could sell them for a bob or two perhaps? Even worse, could it have been one of the army of wanabee folksingers who were knocking around in those days, who figured he could make a career for himself singing Child ballads? I don't know, but the abstraction of such valuable resources is just despicable.

"I had a similar experience in Liverpool many years ago - perhaps mid-70s. The Reference Department card-catalogue showed four volumes of Bronson - only two could be found. Similar gaps were found when I looked for other folk-song collections. The librarian I spoke to had no explanation other than theft - unimaginable to me at the time, but far more expensive volumes have been systematically looted from British libraries, both from public collections and from University libraries where you might expect a higher level of security. But it is also deplorable that reference books such as this have been arbitrarily discarded for space-saving reasons in the way you describe. Equally criminal."


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:38 AM

GUEST Steve Gardham, what is this Ballad List of which you speak? It sounds interesting.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Valmai


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM

Ballad list:
BALLADS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
List-Subscribe:
BALLADS-subscribe-request@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
List-Owner:
mailto:BALLADS-request@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
List-Archive:
http://jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?LIST=BALLADS

It's nothing like Mudcat, mostly announcements.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: BB
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM

Dick, you've just reduced the (monetary) value of our complete set of Bronson at a stroke! Seriously, they are invaluable to anyone interested in the 'big' ballads, and it's fantastic that they're going to be more widely available. Worth every penny, believe me!

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

Unfortunately the ballad list I meant, that Dick contributes to, is the American one, Indiana University. As it predated the English ones we were all already using Indiana and continued to do so. Obviously the more the merrier when it comes to discussing ballads and that means all interested parties on both sides of the Atlantic.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Songster Bob
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:42 PM

Sigh. I have the complete original set of Bronson, seldom if ever use it, and now it's lost a lot of what had been its high value because of Dick's announcement up above. Ah, well, wasn't thinking of selling anyway, despite that "we could use the money" feeling.

Songbob


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 11:34 PM

Songbob---

♫violins playing sadly♫


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: karen k
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:36 AM

Dick, Will they be coming out one at a time like the Loomis Child books or the whole set at once? I need this.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Susan of DT
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 09:00 AM

Karen - All volumes are ready


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:31 AM

Any news?


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Adele Treskillard
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM

Yeah, any news?????

Smiles from a marvelling Sherwood!

Adele : )


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

Although I have a set already, I am still awaiting their ready availablity in hopes that this might stimulate an interest in the ballad tunes among the young. The tunes are a much understudied area of our music.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 02:01 AM

I eagerly await details. The Lewes Saturday Folk Club runs one or two all-day ballad forums a year and we'd be very happy to display fliers for the books every week.

Our next all-day ballad forum is with Tom & Barbara Brown on Saturday 21st. November.

Valmai


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM

I'm another who paid up for an original set (which I will continue to cherish). But like Steve I'm glad they're going to be more widely available - a wonderful resource!


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: doc.tom
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

And Tom & Barbara will be bringing their old copies of Bronson along to the ballad forum at Lewes in November (see Valmai's post above). So anyone who doesn't know what people mean by 'Bronson' can come and browse (that should put the re-issue sales up a bit!) We'll also have some of our other ballad books along too.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:14 AM

An excellent plan, Tom. Keep them on a strong chain!

Valmai


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,The Horse's Mouth
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

Ye Gods! A set of Bronson for less than hundreds of quids? I want one. Please let me know when the English issue becomes available Mr. Greenhause.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 12:30 AM

Dick showed it to me and I immediately ordered mine.


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