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Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?

GUEST 16 Apr 01 - 10:47 AM
Chip2447 16 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM
mousethief 16 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM
Hollowfox 16 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM
GUEST 16 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM
mousethief 16 Apr 01 - 02:08 PM
wysiwyg 16 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 16 Apr 01 - 02:39 PM
Burke 16 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM
Jeri 16 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM
Bill D 16 Apr 01 - 07:29 PM
John P 17 Apr 01 - 07:33 AM
gnu 17 Apr 01 - 07:50 AM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM
Burke 17 Apr 01 - 10:05 AM
Peter T. 17 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM
Jon Freeman 17 Apr 01 - 10:34 AM
Spud Murphy 17 Apr 01 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,djh 17 Apr 01 - 11:21 AM
Little Neophyte 17 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM
Bill D 17 Apr 01 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,DJH 17 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM
mousethief 17 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM
gnu 17 Apr 01 - 11:59 AM
CamiSu 17 Apr 01 - 12:03 PM
pattyClink 17 Apr 01 - 12:05 PM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 01 - 12:31 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM
mousethief 17 Apr 01 - 12:36 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM
Burke 17 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM
John Hardly 17 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM
Pseudolus 18 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:47 AM

There's an obvious distinction to be made between anonymous posts and flames, alluded to only in passing in this thread, that unfortunately, some posters are unable or unwilling to acknowledge. To have one's head virtually torn off for stating an inocuous thought/opinion/observation is an interesting yet somewhat disheartening phenomenon to observe. It is very difficult to imagine the same people sitting themselves down in an empty seat next to an anonymous person on the tram, and responding with a string of invectives to an offer of "Nice day, what?" - but here in this forum this comparison seems to on occasion lack credibility.

Inappropriate responses to neutral stimuli are somewhat understandable if one considers the degree of traumatization some people have suffered as the victims of a flame, especially if their initial reactions were aimed at trying to ascertain the rationale behind an attack for which no rationale exists.

toadfrog alluded to a certain degree of freedom afforded by anonymity. Spot on, but the freedom afforded an anonymous poster is a two way street. As it is freedom from ostracism for stating views unpopular to the herd mentality, so it is also freedom from inclusion for echoing opinions widely regarded and held in high esteem. Either set of circumstances by itself is likely to exert undue influence on one's subsequent deliberations, a fate the anonymous poster avoids handily by dispensing with the dilemma altogether.

Insofar as the general consensus favoring a concerted effort to ignore all posts and opinions by someone who refuses to attach a "handle" by which his or her fellow readers may grab hold...well, that just makes this place seem all the more like home....


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Chip2447
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

Bernard, you beat me to it. Some one who creates a computer virus is just like someone who tips over headstones at a cemetary, or an anonymous, faceless flaming troll. From a layman's point of view they participate in this behavior because they can. The repercussions are virtually non existent. I tend to agree that it's a power trip, about feeding an ego. IMHO, ignoring a troll tends to send them packing, in search of easier prey... Thanks to everyone for the insights.

Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

Home, like Cheers, is where "everybody knows your name." Nobody is anonymous at home. Why should this place feel like home to the anonymous? You're asking for more than mere mortal man can give.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM

Two thoughts came to mind while reading this thread. First was the image of a toddler slamming a door over and over. Toddlers love to do this; they're delighted that someone as small as they are can, with such little effort, move something so big and make so much noise. Second, the often repeated rationalization for misbehaving in children (true or not, I can't say) that negative attention (punishment) is preferable to no attention (being ignored). These thoughts may give insite regarding flamers, perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM

Speaking for Guests, I have had more Mudcatters be snide and insulting towards me than other guests.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:08 PM

Not saying it's not a problem, Guest. But we have been the victims (collectively) of 1,001 anonymous guests starting and/or fanning horrific flame wars. Anonymity appears to give certain people (at least in their own minds) a license to do things and say things they would never say if their identity were known.

Thus, guests that zoom in and say critical things are treated pretty roughly.

If you don't want to be lumped into that group, it's easy enough to sign up and not be a guest any more. So easy, in fact, that members are very suspicious of anybody who won't.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM

Not all members are instantaneously suspicious of Guests. I take a post as I find it, or try to.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:39 PM

I think most folks have been nice. I ussually only go to music related posts and there aint no problems there. It is in the BS posts that people are rude, Wittier than thou-AKA smug and pompous, or suspicious.When I have posted a question most folks ,especially MMario, have been gracious and helpful.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

I was a member of an e-mail discussion forum that had a couple of really bad actors. One I'd describe as a complete troll. He never initiated or participated in a discussion without somehow including a piece of bait. Initially he trolled the whole group, taking an extreme stand on an issue he later admitted he didn't care a lot about. He soon found one very easy target & then phrased his statements to incite flames from that direction. I never understood his motivation, but he was never disappointed, either. I did once have a discussion with someone acquainted with the troll. I was told that in person he also tended to try to get a rise out of others by the way he said things. In pre-net days I guess we'd have called him a tease. The main difference between him & some of the trolls here, is that he did have a consistent name & I did learn to read his messages for the valuable parts & ignored the rest.

Unfortunately the target of our troll was also a big flamer in general. Many messages were flamed for little or no reason. There were other generally well behaved sorts who would from time to time post a really witty message that seemed to be for no other purpose than getting yet another rise from the voracious barracuda. They usually got both the laugh from the general group & the fire from the target.

Much later I spent a couple of hours talking to someone from the group who has a paranoid relative. He outlined for me the indications that this most troublesome member of our e-mail group was possibly close to certifiably paranoid. Much as I was angered by what had happened to our 'friendly' 'happy' group, in looking back I could see how messages like those I've mentioned & some of mine own, helped to feed an already existing bad state. I had, in fact, gotten a fair amount of positive (You tell 'em) feedback about my contribution to the mess. The fact is that after a while, in reaction to frequent provocation, we were out to get her. There had been many who said just ignore it, but I & others could or would not.

All of this is a long way of saying what Bonnie said at the start No matter where you go you will find troubled folks. Not much you can do about that but follow the 'Golden Mudcat Rule' of not responding to their postings and hope that eventually these folks will realize they have a problem and will seek some help. Of course the difficulty is in actually doing this. It is really hard to walk away. I do laugh at the wit these trolls evoke. If someone is saying something really hateful, I do what to see others object. Just not everyone. Occasionally I will put my $.02 in, but try to avoid the general din. I do feel solidarity with those who are setting whoever it is straight.

Maybe a question to ask ourselves is 'Why, oh why, do I feel the need to have my say here? Am I really doing some good with this contribution?' It seems to me some other groups are better about the situation where one person can say, 'This is a troll, ignore it,' & have it ignored. It seems like here one will say, 'This is a troll' & a dozen others will come in with, 'X, you are so right, it sure is a troll, maybe we should ignore it.' Then the insults & jokes start and the thread keeps coming up to the top. GET A LIFE is a good example. I read enough to see what was up & stopped. Don't know what's keeping it alive but if it had died over the weekend as it should have, most of us who took the weekend off would have missed it completely.

Remember, the only person you can control is yourself.

Burke, Been there, done that. Want to see my scratches?


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM

Yeah, Burke. What really bugs me is when an obnoxious thread is about to drop off the message page, and someone comes in late and just has to add their .02, and it's often something somebody else has already said or "I agree with so-and-so." I don't dispute their right to say what they want, but it still bugs me. (This may be the "last word syndrome."

I think some folks just adopt a persona to flame. I honestly believe that if you pretend to be a certain way long enough, you stand a good chance of becoming that way. I think most folks see what's down the path they're on and turn around. Some don't.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:29 PM

Some people have a distinct 'self-image' and want to appear that way to others....But, they may also have aspects of their personality that they realize doesn't fit that image and, sometimes, opinions that are out of character.....

Now, in person it is not easy for many to just SAY something to a member of their group which may be inflammatory and critical. How often have you wished you could tell someone you basically liked and got along with that they were all wet on subject 'X'?...Some do, but it can affect a relationship or worse...most of us stifle critical remarks when we have to face the person....but this is different!.. With a little effort, you can gripe about something and still preserve your image for other times.

....the trouble is, it can get to be addictive to freely rail against what you feel to be the stupidities of others and vent your pet peeves without 'you' being linked to it.

People used to scribble graffiti, or write letters to the editor, or call radio talk shows...but this internet/WWW thing has REALLY allowed anonymous commentary to take off, and most of us have had only 1-4 or 5 years to come to terms with the rules and the INTERNAL needs....and some never will!

I reply on some threads, but I am 'passing' on more & more. I am really working on deciding which of my opinions NEED to be visited on others, and how they might best be presented to have any chance of being heard and respected....One thing is sure, yelling and sniping seldom help!

I am reminded of an OLD Peanuts comic strip,,,Lucy is standing in front of her younger brother, Linus....

"Change your mind!", she yells.
"CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!"
"I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND".....
...in the last panel, she is walking away grumpily, musing..." I wonder why it's so hard to get people to change their minds these days?"


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John P
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:33 AM

Guest, the fact that a post comes from a guest doesn't bother me at all. I take each post on it's own merits. What does bother me is people -- guests or members -- who post strong opinions or judgements without signing their names. Actually, almost any anonymous post bugs me. What's the point of speaking up if no one knows who you are? Why don't you sign your name?

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:50 AM

I don't sign my name because I am paranoid about being in such a venue for the first time - never been in a forum or chat room or anything like it before. I've heard and read about internet horror stories which, of course, may be urban myths. However, given the choice, I prefer to remain anonymous, especially when there are so many anon's' in this forum and since non-members can post anonymously. If the rules change to incorporate some kind of certification of membership and security system, I'd be happy to sign my name. Until then, I'll follow the lead of so many others before me who obviously must have good reason for anonymity.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM

gnu, I don't think anyone here means to question the kind of anonymity you are talking about-- but rather, people who give no moniker at all and are simply Guest. And, further, I think, Guests who are invited nicely to take a name and then persistently don't, even though it is clearly the normal thing here to use some name.

Still this is a choice people have; we can opt to respond to the thoughts expressed instead of to the personality expressing them.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:05 AM

I think John is objecting to people like gnu & me who do not sign our posts & use fake names in our handles. I'm not going to go into my reasons for doing it, but I will point out that unless there is a possibility of actually meeting a person it makes no difference if I use the name Burke or my legal name. I may have had illusions of not having to deal with consequences of what I say here in real life, but I cannot discuss the things I really care about without beginning to give clues as to my identity to those who may actually know me. While I am trying to sheild myself to a certain degree, the fact is that I have met Susan & when I have exchanged PM's I have signed my name. I'm planning to go to Susan's gathering. I'll be at Old Songs & if there's a Mudcat gathering I have 2 choices. I can skip the gathering & preserve my anonymity or I can go & meet everyone. Even if I still just say I'm Hi, I'm Burke I'll still be bearing the consequences of whatever I may have said here.

John, from your earlier post, I think I know why this pseudo anonymousnous bothers you. I am more familiar with that situation than I'll discuss here. I just want you to know that the people who did & still do come in for the most bile have had the opportunity to meet in the flesh & do know who it is.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

I like the term Guest, and always hope that once over the threshold they ARE OURS FOR LIFE, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
I thought that it was (thanks to Max) an elegant way of dealing with what was at one time a very, very serious problem that threatened to kill this place completely. It also requires the regulars to be patient, and hints to the guests that they might try and act like guests. Of course some people don't respond to these kinds of signals, but what can you do.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:34 AM

I have nothing against people using handles, guest ones or member ones as long as there is consistency.

The biggest problem I have is the knowledge that some of these guests who flame have been around here a long while (they have to have been to make certain comments, know who to target, etc) and are probably members (in fact there is one well known case of a member) abusing the system to make remarks that they wouldn't have the guts to normally and this does leave a nasty taste.

I would suspect that this is why guests who make controversial statements can be treated in manners ranging from suspiscion to outright hostility.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:57 AM

In retrospect: It used to be a common saying that "an expert is someone who is ninety miles from home."

I think that in the same vein and with changing times, the saying can now be safely made that "an expert is someone who has made 90 posts on one or more 'threads'."

George MacClanahan


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:21 AM

I am the Guest from a few posts back . I rarely think or bother to fill that field in. It aint about anonimity, it is just that I am not in the habit. I always have used it on the rare occasion when I start a thread.
Someone pointed out The get a life thread as a flame,so I went and read it. The original post seemed a valid opinion and not very "trollish". I like slang and have a friend who publishes English text books and VERY annoyingly makes a habit of correcting my grammar, when I am fully aware I aint practicing no good grammar. The littany of hostile insulting shots and "Why don't you leave then." posts seemed far more Flamish than the first post, beyond the title, which seems to be the only 3 words anyone responded to.
Anyhow, since it seems to inspire distrust I will tag all my posts when I stop by for now on. - take care DJH


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM

If someone is a member and uses a moniker so that it is protecting who they really are, well I guess that is their choice.
If someone uses and moniker or their real name but periodically posts as GUEST to get a confrontational point across, well I guess that is their choice too.
Personally I like to keep my life uncomplicated. It is much easier to show up just as I am because eventually people will figure me out anyway so I might as well be myself now and not waste my time and energy on hiding.
Besides, I get so much more out of life when I really show up, even through confrontations and dumb comments I wish I never posted.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:48 AM

I wish Max would write code that *required* some entry after the word 'guest', just to avoid the problem djh notes. I have NO problem with gnu's solution...be Rumplestiltskin if you wish...just be someone consistently, (preferably a member, so you you can get private messages and see the other services....but if you are Joe Schmoe in thread 'X', be Joe Schmoe in thread 'Y')...there can be continuity and understanding developed between people whether or not they know each other's real names, but disembodied comments make most regulars uneasy.

awww, to hell with it, YOU know the reasoning...and I am tired of begging folks to BE reasonable.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST,DJH
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM

What other benifits?


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM

The problem is that DJH is not the only person who can type "DJH" in the guest name box. Anybody can type "DJH" there, and thus put words in DJH's mouth that maybe DJH doesn't believe.

When you join, however, only YOU can use your handle, so we know that everything that is said under the name "gnu" was written by our friend in New Brunswick.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:59 AM

DJH - I believe you can find the benefits on the main page... personal messages, thread tracing.... but I just like being a member of a group which I admire. They are kind, helpful, knowledgible, etc ad infinitum.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CamiSu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:03 PM

gnu & Burke,

I would say that there IS a difference between you and the anonymous guests, in that everything you post is yours, and identifiably so. We may not know your real names, but you are consistently YOU, and since we mostly know each other only by our postings our "real" names don't particularly matter.

I must admit that I do not always say some of the things I think, because they are probably somewhat personally unkind and as I was growing up I learned "If you can't say something nice..." But if I don't agree with a person I feel free to say so, and I'll either learn something new, change the other person's mind a bit, or agree to disagree. But I must admit, that good manners go a long way with me, and while I have found some questionable manners from people who do sign some sort of name, it is more often there from people who persistently remain "guest".

All in all, I find this place refreshing and caring, probably as I would find the people here in 3D. And the trolls and flamers most likely would not come to our gatherings...

And I was probably not creative enough to think of a nickname..

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: pattyClink
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:05 PM

About the "rudeness" of me-too type posts: Geez, sorry! When I do this is it is A. well-intentioned and B. a habit developed from other message boards where you want to be sure you reply to the original poster, and don't link to another reply-er by mistake.

I will try to not do it again, but again, I don't think it is rude. When one polls a group with a question, sometimes there is value in several people responding in essentially the same way, it reinforces that answer. But if you would rather there never be an extraneous post, message received.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:31 PM

Maybe one of the underlying things here is simply that people are not prepared for the real community nature of the Mudcat when first arriving-- I mean, if we acknowledge that Mudcat is special when viewed in relation to other sites, boards, etc., then we would have to notice that it would be impossible to arrive understanding how it works, how to get along... it goes beyond manners, which differ somewhat from place to place and generation to generation, or among different media... it's partly about culture, which is not the same as manners. Sometimes I see us judging manners when what is at work is culture.

And sometimes I see us judging behavior as permanent, intentioned, and thought out with calm deliberation, when it is people just doing the best they can at the point in time at which we view them.

I am not saying this right. I'll try again.

Every day, all we can really see is a slice of who each person posting is on THAT DAY in their life. The friends I have made here, above evey other quality I value, expect this. They welcome whoever I am, however I am, trusting that I move forward as a person; they want the same from me.

It is impossible to be adequately prepared for the overwhelmingly welcoming nature of most of the people here brought together the way Max has made Mudcat. So, for instance, if you aren't accustomed to being made so welcome, it might be a long time before it occurred to you that simply giving yourself a name (and going beyond that to join and open the door to PM's) would result in being adopted into a new tribe. You would not realize, first encountering the tribe, that is has a culture you will want to adopt, or be adopted into. You are just going from your own culture at first.

I think we tend to forget that once we have been adopted in. I think it's very easy, in the good feelings of community, to forget that becoming part of Mudcat is a continuum and that people are not the same old Joe or Jane, once they've been here ahile, as they were the day they arrived. I mean, in any setting, life develops people... and Mudcat ESPECIALLY does.

I have gotten correspondences underway with people who had been real difficult community members... people who flamed, people who trolled, people with unmet needs or undeveloped social skills... people who were stuck in a behavior and blamed for it instead of getting a relaxed hand with it.... and this is a part of what they have said, after awhile... "I just never knew a community could be like THIS." And I have had people give me a hand that way.

I never knew it could be like this, either. Think back... did you?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM

DJH, Mousethief and gnu have mentioned some but the benefits of membership can be found in this part of the FAQ. The comment about Hearme is redundant.

pattyClink, I think there are times when a number of us do feel the need to re-enforce or voice support to a comment and I don't think that is being rude. The problem is of course that if everyone who thought "me-too" posted just that we would have an awful lot of extraneous posts. I think, in general, it is a habit best avoided.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:36 PM

PattyClink, I fear you've missed the point. It's not all "me too" posts that were being argued against, but rather ones that prolong the "life" of a thread that would be better off dead.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

Ah those ones Moushief, thanks for explaining. I tend to call those the "I'm having the last word" posts.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM

Alex has correctly interpreted what I meant on 'me too.' DJH, I don't have time right now to explain why I thought GET A LIFE was a troll, but will later, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM

PattyClink,

It's not a "me too" post if it's not acknowledged as such.

If it's acknowledged as "me too" the original poster is not being ignored (or "shit on" as I so hyperbolically referred to it earlier)>

If it is not acknowledged as a "me too" (meaning with reference back to the original point and the originator of that point it does just as Alex and Jon were talking about in prolonging the thread needlessly and furthermore, it is the moral equivalent of plagiarism. If you meant to bolster the point made by a fellow poster as either an emphasis to, or encouragement of that poster, the appropriate way to do so would be to ACKNOWLEDGE THE ORIGINAL POSTER! This isn't that hard to understand.--JH


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

John, I understand what you're trying to say but to read your post would make one believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to post. Like there are rigid rules that if you don't comply, you're considered rude. I've seen folks respond to a VERY long post but they picked on one sentence, out of context, consequently making NO sense at all (IMHO) but I wouldn't think it a very good idea to pick on their "style" or their "personality". I stick with arguing/agreeing with their points. I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I appreciate (especially in a long thread) referring back to the poster you have a comment for or acknowledging a poster that you are about to agree with, but I don't necessarily consider it rude if it isn't done. jmho.

Frank


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