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Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?

Morticia 14 Apr 01 - 07:08 PM
Little Neophyte 14 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 01 - 07:20 PM
Morticia 14 Apr 01 - 07:22 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 01 - 07:32 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 01 - 07:37 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM
Peg 14 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 01 - 07:50 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 01 - 08:13 PM
Jeri 14 Apr 01 - 08:16 PM
John Routledge 14 Apr 01 - 08:18 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM
Jon Freeman 14 Apr 01 - 08:30 PM
death by whisky 14 Apr 01 - 08:38 PM
Morticia 14 Apr 01 - 08:53 PM
Jeri 14 Apr 01 - 09:18 PM
Bluebelle 14 Apr 01 - 09:23 PM
Peg 14 Apr 01 - 09:32 PM
John Hardly 14 Apr 01 - 10:33 PM
kendall 14 Apr 01 - 11:01 PM
Little Neophyte 14 Apr 01 - 11:52 PM
Amos 14 Apr 01 - 11:59 PM
toadfrog 15 Apr 01 - 12:06 AM
Bert 15 Apr 01 - 12:09 AM
Jon Freeman 15 Apr 01 - 12:27 AM
Bert 15 Apr 01 - 12:30 AM
Roughyed 15 Apr 01 - 04:02 AM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 01 - 04:51 AM
Gervase 15 Apr 01 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,A guest but I used be a member - NE Oklahoma 15 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM
Morticia 15 Apr 01 - 06:17 AM
John Hardly 15 Apr 01 - 07:31 AM
gnu 15 Apr 01 - 08:03 AM
Little Neophyte 15 Apr 01 - 08:13 AM
John P 15 Apr 01 - 08:32 AM
John Hardly 15 Apr 01 - 08:42 AM
Little Neophyte 15 Apr 01 - 09:12 AM
John Hardly 15 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM
sophocleese 15 Apr 01 - 10:09 AM
Jeri 15 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM
Liz the Squeak 15 Apr 01 - 12:48 PM
Liz the Squeak 15 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM
Morticia 15 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM
CamiSu 15 Apr 01 - 02:54 PM
Peter T. 15 Apr 01 - 03:51 PM
John Routledge 15 Apr 01 - 04:45 PM
wysiwyg 15 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM
Bernard 15 Apr 01 - 08:17 PM
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Subject: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:08 PM

Do we ( i.e. forums like this)get flamers? Since I've been here,( about 18 months or so) I've watched numerous people try to make a name for themselves or get attention, usually by pissing off, often in very personal terms, people they have never met.What's the pay off? They can't see facial expression, they can't be around when they spoil someone's day, they don't even have the power thing going on since they are ALWAYS outnumbered and ridiculed/reviled.What is going on for them?
I noticed Big Mick asked one to contact him personally to find out the very same thing...I have done so in the past and had one set of answers but as a generalisation,I don't understand and would really like to...what is the impetus to upsetting people you have never met, are never likely to meet and cannot control or affect?


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM

Mortica, no matter where you go you will find troubled folks. Not much you can do about that but follow the 'Golden Mudcat Rule' of not responding to their postings and hope that eventually these folks will realize they have a problem and will seek some help.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:20 PM

I think it's about power. They like that they have the power to piss people off.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:22 PM

I appreciate that Bonnie and seldom get drawn in to these type of threads but, as a psychologist, the motivation of the people who do this really interests me.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:32 PM

Hi Morticia,

Since you are a psychologist, you will probably know that if you look at what reinforces the behavior (i.e. increases it), you can see what it is that motivates it.

As you know, the behavior is reinforced when they succeed in making people angry. And you know that in order to extinguish the behavior, we just have to ignore it.

Maybe what we need to look at is the behavior of those who feed these behaviors. The ones who respond to people like this with anger and flames. What do they get out of it? Catharsis, maybe?

You have posed some interesting questions.

Carol


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:37 PM

There mau be as many motivations as the people involved in doing it. I don't know that any one reason would suffice. I think our current Anon/Guest is frankly miffed over not having more control over the site and fails to understand what the site is or to take into account anything Max has to say. He's pretty innocuous as they go, but in his case, he has dug himself a hole through previous mistakes and also when pushed today, has shown his lack of credibility. I think his original motivation was simply his lack of satisfaction in the way Mudcat has gone.

I don't get upset at all with these folks anymore. Its very enjoyable playing with this one as a matter of fact. For words to hurt, you must have respect and care about the person speaking......in other words, you have to take them seriously. I think the only people who takes most of these guys seriously is themselves and that is very true of our current Guest#1. There is nothing he can say that will bother me, so what the hell!?!?! Have fun.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM

Carol.........I'm not angered by these people and I enjoy the pestering of them. If they got to me, I wouldn't post, or if they are of the type that IS looking for attention, than I don't give it to them. In the case of Guest#1, neither of the above are his motivation.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM

Morticia;

this is nothing; yo should see soem of the crap that goes on in some of the pagan newsgroups and lists; absolutely unbelievable. Talk about no-lifers with delusions of grandeur!!! Some of them seem to be post nealry 24 hours a day to keep little flame wars going...


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:50 PM

I'm not angered by these people and I enjoy the pestering of them.

--Spaw

So, in your case Spaw, it sounds like you are saying that your motivation for feeding these behaviors is to have fun.

Carol


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:13 PM

At times Carol.....The ones which I do respond to, yes. Like G#1, they aren't the attention seekers exactly....Oh he wants attention, but he's going to play whether anyone plays or not. He's basically lonely from that standpoint, but ignoring him will not make him go away. In the case of G#1, he is angered about his lack of control over Mudcat and the way he's regarded. He believes it to be a newsgroup, which it isn't. He always wanted it to be, but it never was and that fact became clear several years ago when a lot of people showed up at one time. Mudcat went to some other discussions and became a lot freer and looser and he didn't like it. So he's mad at me, mad at Max for not "taking charge"....generally PO'ed. He claims he hates BS but Bs's all the time. He claims he wants more info to get rid of frivo;ous posts and yet won'y give any of the data about himself.

He's going to be around til he sees a change ....or NO possibility of a change. What he cannot see is that there is room for all here.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:16 PM

Just butting in here. A wise person once told me (in discussing an ongoing flame war in a newsgroup) that it's all about fun. The problem with flame wars is people seem to enjoy the arguments right up until one side really loses it and gets mad.

People probably have somewhat different motives, but at the heart, it's about control. That's what provocation is, isn't it? If you agree, they got you to do something. If you disagree, they got you to do something. If you ignore them, they wind up having to talk to themselves, not to mention looking stupid because none of the other kids will play with them. (The first time everyone here ignores a troll/flamer, I'll probably faint from shock.)


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Routledge
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:18 PM

Interesting to hear G#1's views on accuracy of Spaw's comments. G(John)B


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM

Spaw, maybe with that one, what we are seeing is someone who is exhibiting compulsive behavior that he/she has little or no control over. Maybe the stated 'reasons' for the behavior are simply attempts to rationalize behavior that makes no sense even to him/her.

Something to consider, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:23 PM

I gave up on that Jeri. It won't happen and if it did I'd faint too. I spent a month letting every one of them go past and not once did we not bite.

Oddly enough, have you noticed that no one bites on spam around here? Hardly ever....and we don't get much, but it goes down the tube fast. I've often wondered, why one and not the other?

Now I tell you, I will play the quiet game starting now for a month again....OK? I'm also going to make a list of the people I think cannot do it (now) and I'll bet that a month from now my list is accurate! Wanna'play???

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:30 PM

One thing to remember in relation to Jeri's comments about a game is that a troller/ flamer is quite capable of picking on someone well respected or liked simply as it is likely to cause a bigger fire or one that will light more easily. The apparent target can be no more than a tool to this end.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: death by whisky
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:38 PM

STILL WAITING


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:53 PM

Certainly I understand that Jon, what I don't understand is why?
'Spaw, love of my heart, you can ignore, I can ignore, all God's peoples can ignore......there will always be those who can't......who think with a few well-chosen words they can fix it, or put the person in his/her place or, at the very least, make their feelings on the subject clear. I think that's a constant temptation, hard to resist; and I think I understand that one.
It's the sad little man/woman needing/hoping/wishing to get a rise out of this forum of people......to what end, to what effect, why? That's the bit I don't get.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:18 PM

I agree with CarolC about the rationalization. Anyone with even a slight amount of intelligence can tell that the actions will not be, and have been proven in the past not to be effective. Nobody's buying it. Maybe it's boredom, maybe it's a need to interact with people, and he just doesn't know any other way, maybe it's his way of shouting "I am." Who knows...


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bluebelle
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:23 PM

Why? Because you continue to tell everything about yourselves. You "make" yourselves easy prey. The flamer(s) are going to choose that individual who is the most vulnerable, at any given time. You believe, because this is a folk music site, that everyone here is about peace and love. You have made this into a community and in every community there are those who rape and pillage. Someone is bound to be a victim. Requesting people to not rise to the flame is futile because the flamer(s) will just move on to their next victim. Better to have your say, than to feel you have stood by silently, while the rape continues.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:32 PM

well put, Bluebelle!

If we were in a bar I'd buy you a drink!


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:33 PM

The mudcat, like other forums, is fascinating as a sociological phenomenon.

People who congregate almost inevitably fall into roles. Ever notice how, in every new crowd of which you become a part, you already "know" many of the individuals? In a general way, the individuals in the new group will remind you of the individuals in other groups of which you are a part.

The departure from this sociological phenom is that, in these on-line communities, there is a different standard by which individuals are evaluated and assigned their position/role. For instance, physical characteristics that command attention (beauty, stature, color, the ability to pull off "physical comedy" etc.) no longer apply, nor can they be "used" as tools.

It's been my observation that this results in immense frustration for certain individuals who for the first time, 1. Find themselves without their formerly reliable attention getting tools. or 2. Are misunderstood because their communication skills are overly reliant on physicality. (of course, the upside is that heretofore overlooked people can have previously unnoted wit and intellect really shine)

Consider also that, this being a music related site, the number of "performer" personalities is probably statistically, abnormally high. Remember Don Firth's description of how Walt Robertson instinctively knew how to become the focal point of the room? Imagine that those skills are absent, but you still desire what has (for you) always been your role.

Maybe flamers are the most frustrated by this new type of community.

Of course, I could just be full of shit...


--JH


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:01 PM

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:52 PM

John Hardy, I'm not sure about your observations of physical characteristics being lacking through postings. From my experience all you have to do is post your physical measurements and you get LOTS of attention around here. I started out with a discussion on banjo measurements but then the conversation got a little carried away.

:)

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:59 PM

The basic reason why is the burning desire to create effects. We all do it; but the mature or capable among us do it in a way that balances viewpoints and is willing to exchange creating effects with having effects crated on oneself by others, such as by being moved by someone's writing. People a little less on top of things or together go out of balance and feel that a great deal more effort is needed in order to reach others, and also often feel that they must allow NO impulse from others to reach them. In expreme cases this becomes allowing nothing and no-one to touch you while believing one must create cosmic-scale results with zero effort in zero time. Crazy in the extreme; but lots of people have small traces of it in them. Any way, the short answer is in order to cause some kind of effect somewhere.

A


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: toadfrog
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:06 AM

Kendall, Joe Offer says, in his advice to us Newks, that the way to handle Flamers is to ignore them. Meaning, I would think, do nothing. I admit, I rise to the bait sometime. But query, is it really a good idea to "pester" these guys? I.e. pay attention to them?

The motive is not that hard to figure. On-line is anonymous. You don't have to answer for what you do. That's many people's idea of "freedom."


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bert
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:09 AM

1. They haven't yet grown up. They approach every problem by lying on the floor, kicking and screaming.
2. They are cowards, they haven't the courage to admit who they are.
3. They are stupid, they think that they are stating their own opinion but in reality, because they are anonymous, they are no one. They haven't the intelligence to realise that, because they are anonymous, their postings are the opinions of NO ONE.

Personally I don't understand or relate to them in any way. When 'I' say something, however stupid or arrogant it maybe, I want people to know that it is ME, BERT, who is saying it.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:27 AM

I don't know why Morty but I will add my speculation to what others have suggested here.

1. Some may just want to see the effect. I guess you could liken it to an arsonist lighting a fire and sitting back watching the results and lauging at the fire fighters trying to put it out.

2. Some may have a grudge or feel jealous of someone or something and see it as a means of getting even. The grudge/ jealousy may of course be at the forum as a whole.

3. I guess that it is not impossible for someone to start out thinking they are on some form of crusade to save the forum from BS but I think if genuinely does happen, they wind up rapidily losing the plot.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bert
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:30 AM

Yer right Jon, I think I read somewhere about the mental age of an arsonist being less than 5 years. I seems to fit.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Roughyed
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:02 AM

Interesting discussion. I'm pretty new to the net so I've only met this phenomenon very recently. If you get a group of people together physically, one person will take a leading role, one an opposition role, another the group humourist, another the diplomat etc.

With virtual groups like this one you can see the roles people take but it's not exactly the same. A fruitful area for research maybe, although I can't quite see what for. Maybe the troll etc.is the on line version of the opposition role. There again it might just be the childish impulse to kick over sandcastles.

The best way I have seen so far of dealing with these people is to carry on a serious conversation 'around' their contributions if you know what I mean.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:51 AM

Well, some of our flamers actually seem to know a lot about music, and might be able to make a significant contribution here. Some of our flamers are "regulars" who take on a different personality when they post anonymously. I suppose most of the flaming is harmless, but some of it has a sinister quality to it that might be an indication of some serious psychological problems. I know it's tempting to respond to flamers, but my experience is that the best response is no response - and that takes discipline. I know I break that rule myself at times, but I'm in somewhat of a different position.
Generally, though, I think the no-response rule is a good policy. Look on it as positive reinforcement. We respond to people who ask legitimate questions and make constructive comments, and we completely ignore the flamers. If the flamers want a response, maybe they'll be encouraged to learn how to make a constructive contribution to the discussion.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 06:09 AM

Joe's right, in that some of the flamers display a high level of intelligence and knowledge about music, but they also have a sociopathic element - a sort of cyber-tourette's syndrome, which means that they just can't help pissing on other people's chips.
For which the only solution is to ignore them, not rise to the troll and wait for the "episode" to pass.
In the case of Guest £1 - the prompt for this threat, maybe - h/she is quite capable of lucid, intelligent comment, and I enjoy some of his/her posts. The snide crap I just write off as an "episode" and ignore accordingly.
It's still a pain in the arse, though!


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST,A guest but I used be a member - NE Oklahoma
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM

I too, and I am mostly a reader / lurker here, was amazed to find posts of the MAV kind for example on the board!

I treasure this site not only because it hosts and promotes Acoustic Blues but also provides both interesting and relevant discussion to a Folky like me.

In fact if it were not for the Muddie I could not have collected a great deal of material which enabled me to make this site Clickything and create a great selection of Folk Song for my own and others' pleasure.

My reasons for departing were simply too much to deal with in my life besides music, in fact I injured my arm at work and could not play at all!

My attitude to Flamers is real simple - hey if they cannot Sing or Pick why the ???? are they here? Boot em ban em what ever. But then Max and Bert and the Elves are too soft hearted so I suppose it will not happen.

I do not miss folks here since I read but don't post much except on MAV threads which are, lets face it, a joke, I fall over laughing many a time reading Spaw and Bert :). You guys are great all of you. It is not for the flamers I come here!

Last a little advertising, please do remember the Woody Guthrie Festival in Okemah Oklahoma is in June, it will. as it was every year so far, be a great week end. It costs less than 20 bucks for both camping and admission.

Thank You all and Happy Wabbit Day


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 06:17 AM

I think relating it to real world social adaptation is a good clue.....but in the 3d world there is immiediate gratification as what you say/do is responded to.There is also the ability to pick your targets in terms of your relationship with them.Flamers here have no relationship with us and can only get their 'reward' through written words on a screen....not much payback for all that effort, I would have thought.Although the relativly anonymous nature of the internet allows people to be nastier than they might in real life,why should they want to be, given that it also means they do not KNOW their victims? What I think I'm asking is,are we non-people to flamers/trolls therefore what's said can't matter ( in which case why bother?)...or have we ( by which I mean any forum) assumed super-status and become the important reality in their lives..therefore would the normal instinct not be to want to be a constructive part of this forum?


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 07:31 AM

"What I think I'm asking is,are we non-people to flamers/trolls therefore what's said can't matter ( in which case why bother?)...or have we ( by which I mean any forum) assumed super-status and become the important reality in their lives..therefore would the normal instinct not be to want to be a constructive part of this forum?"

Here's my cop-out answer. (We're) both. The anonymity they feel foisted upon them, they can't help but want to retaliate and express the degree to which they think (wish) us anonymous. Of course they'd RATHER be accepted--they just don't know how that would express itself (for instance, I think they lack the understanding of just HOW MUCH EVERYONE'S POSTS ARE IGNORED)

I do think ignoring their posts is the best recourse though it is interesting that in a LARGE forum like this one, it also has a reinforcing effect. Maybe I should say that, if my initial theory holds water, it's the ignoring of their posts that began the behavior in the first place.

Additionally, don't forget that there are two very distinct types of "ignoring" that go on here regularly. There is the PASSIVE type that is just the lack of acknowlegement of posts that don't interest us (major cause--long posts like this!).

Then there is the real flame producing--ACTIVE IGNORING, caused by the excessive amount of people here who post without reading through the previous posts to see if the point they wish to make has already BEEN made. When THEY post they might as well just shit on the head of the poster with the original thought (if they don't AKNOWLEDGE THE PREVIOUS POST!!).

In any group it is just as hard to be accepting of new blood as it is to break into the established group.


Again, just my observation. --JH


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:03 AM

Spaw said... Now I tell you, I will play the quiet game starting now for a month again....OK? I'm also going to make a list of the people I think cannot do it (now) and I'll bet that a month from now my list is accurate! Wanna'play???

Rules, please... eg, members, too ? I can think of a recent incident where a member deliberately posted something which was obviously inane and only meant to provoke a response.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:13 AM

John maybe some postings are acknowledged silently. Often I read a posting and gain great insight from it but that does not mean I will respond to it. I acknowledge it silently.
If I find postings are repeating the opinion of previous posters I just figure, mmmmmm, more folks have those very same thoughts.
Sometimes I read a thread but I must admit my comprehension can be weak at the best of times and I have overlooked the fact that what I wanted to say has already been said and I wind up posting an opinion already stated. Oooops, guess that means I'm human.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:32 AM

I was, for years, the regular target of a flamer on the newsgroups. For some reason she had it in for me and lost no opportunity to bash me in whatever way she could. I tried to ignore her as much as possible, but was often drawn into discussions that she was part of. There were two reasons that I would respond sometimes:

1) She would often attack my honesty, the integrity and quality of my music, or the honor of my friends. Since honesty and integrity are important to me, and to the folk community in general, I sometimes felt the need to defend myself. Letting lies go unanswered means that some other person might read them and believe them. Answering her usually made it quickly obvious to all that she was crazy.

2) One of the ways that flamers get their jollies is to take over existing threads and, by the outrageous nature of their comments, change the subject matter in subtle or not-so-sublte ways to be about themselves, their target, or some pet peeve/enthusiasm. I spent a lot of time dropping out of threads I was interested in when my attack dog would show up, but then I realized that she was silencing me. It is sometimes possible to have a discussion around the flamer, but when everyone else in the thread goes off on the flamer's tangent, you either have to go along and try to post as intelligently as possible, or be silenced.

I agree that non-response is the best response to general flames that don't attack an individual or interrupt an existing discussion. And even then it's often the best response

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:42 AM

Bonnie,

I wish we all shared your mental health![big smile]. Actually, what you describe is what I referred to as passive ignoring, and if the ones who misinterpret it understood that everyone is ignored in that way to some extent, they may be less inclined to become flame throwers.

As to the posting of duplicate information without acknowledgement--that's just rude. Understanding the limits of communication inherent in forums, that's the 2D equivalent of the 3D stepping between 2 conversing people and keeping your back turned to one of them.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 09:12 AM

John, I get what you are saying. See, how considerate I am responding to your posting.

:)

Just a thought......ever been in a 3 D conversation with a group of people and you states an opinion but no one seems to acknowledge what you said. Then someone else pipes up with the same thought, but words it differently or maybe even exactly the same as what you said, and everyone turns to acknowlege that person. I guess it is rude, but it is also human nature. People seem to have a difficult time listening. I figure 2 D reading of postings is the equivalent to 3 D listening which at the best of times isn't the greatest.

Ever notice in 3 D few people really, really listen to you. I've notice in postings when someone really reads what I have written and responds to elaborate or discuss my thoughts posted, I think to myself "Oh my goodness, someone took the time to really understood what I wrote". At that moment I think to myself how good it feels and in return I try harder to do the same for others.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM

Bonnie,

You're an angel!

That's just what I meant--I just think it's more avoidable here. Most of the double posts reflect a laziness that has people saving time by only reading the last post of a thread--I say if you don't have the time to read the whole thread than you damn well might as well ignore the whole thread rather than contribute rudeness to it.

It also brings me back to one of my original observations. In the 3D world, the ones who become the flamers of the cyberworld have a physical personaltiy that may make being ignored less likely. Being ignored here is a relatively new experience.

Oh...did you say something?*BG*--JH


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 10:09 AM

I think this is interesting. I 'd like to add that as I read down the thread there were a couple of times when I felt like flaming it. The origingal question was good and there have been many good answers. The ones that made me want to flame are the ones that self-congratulate the poster on his maturity as opposed to the presumed maturity of the flamer. As an iconoclastic canadian I have a great desire to puncture pomposity and self-adoration.

The logic for replying to flamers seems a little odd and one-sided. Given that it is possible to send personal messages of support to those who are attacked in a flame there is no need to respond to the flamer to show support. Being rude to those who are rude does nothing to improve the forum and merely allows the replier to vent while abusing the possibly frustrated and upset flamer for venting him/herself. Sometimes the evidenced desire of responders to prove superior mental capacity and emotional development reminds me of a 13 year old friend teasing her younger sister by jumping up and down yelling "Sister's Immature! Sister's Immature!"

The question of why people persistently respond to flamers is also interesting. Do they get a charge out of playing victim? Do they like the feel of their blood boiling in outrage, like people only reading about the gunshots and murders and ignoring beautiful babies and cheerful everyday life? Clearly I am better and more mature than they are as I don't respond to flamers just as they are clearly more mature than the flamers. Umm?

As you might guess I dislike rudeness from anybody, flamer or not. I'm not prissy I just think that after every flame war more of the fun of Mudcat has been lost. My pleasure in reading threads disintegrates as the degree to which people feel free to indulge wit and intelligence is hampered by angry self-aggrandizing first-thought-but-no-second thought posting.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

JH, I agree with what you said, but also the same thing can happen regardless of whether it's a newcomer or a member who's been around for a while. They expect some sort of reaction or acknowledgement they don't get, and then attempt to get any sort of acknowledgment, even negative.

Kendall quoted "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."

Well, except for terrorism, where the aim is to get the biggest reaction possible with the least amount of work. Or in other words, it's a way for a person or group with very little power to make a huge impact. With true terrorism, the victims aren't the true targets. What terrorists hope to accomplish is to disrupt the community - to make them afraid so they behave in ways they normally wouldn't. Authorities have to do something to keep victims from being hurt, but they also work very hard to keep the fear reaction and changes in behavior to a minimum.

Flames can be a sort of an attempt at mental terrorism...more like annoyance-ism. Take the physical danger out of the equation, and what do we have left? We have only the community disruption to worry (or not worry) about.

John P - I was there. There seems to be an overwhelming need to defend people, even when they'd like it if you wouldn't. It requires an act of self-control to not respond, which people in cyberspace are unwilling to understand or unable to accomplish. (Just ask me - I used to routinely shoot my mouth off in those newsgroups and I'm just getting to the point where I can walk away in Mudcat, or at least discuss and not react.)


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:48 PM

Better to have your say, than to feel you have stood by silently, while the rape continues.

This is also very sensible. Sometimes you have to say something or else be steamrollered into behaving the way the flamer wants. For flamer read bully. If we did not stand up to those who bully, then I personally would be in a rubber room right now, trying to drool out of both sides of my mouth at once, and playing with coloured string.

A flamer is calling for attention. If you give flame back, you are playing into their hands. If you take the flamer aside and make a private (PM) comment, then you get your point over without making a public show, which would then give the flamer more ammunition to flame in public....... see how the circles goes?

The problem is seeing the difference between thought out argument, flip comment (these are usually mine... ) by someone who doesn't understand what the argument/discussion is about and contradiction just for it's own sake. It's only by learning more about those involved that we can differentiate between the argument, the flippant and the awkward sod. And the only way to learn more about those involved is to communicate with them. Morty has the right idea, trying to understand these flamers, the same way that I would try to understand the bully at work. It doesn't automatically follow that we won't be flamed, or tempted to make a sharp retort back, but hopefully we can understand the psyche behind the flame and learn to deal with it sympathetically, or to ignore it with equinimity.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM

Oh, and Morty? You ARE turning into a TOG, go and apply for your 'Do I come here often' sweatshirt immediately!!!

LTS *BG*


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

I had wondered if this thread would be flamed, interesting that it hasn't, don't you think? Are we getting too close for comfort, or do the people we think of as flamers not see themselves in that light? No man is wicked in his own eyes, sort of thing?
Liz, my poor memory is becoming both famous and an embarrassment.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 02:54 PM

I, having read this entire thread and had, and consequently lost, several responses and thoughts on the subject, would offer:

These forums are a wonderful place to speak, and usually be heard. (I guess it never occurred to me to read only the last post or two and respond to those. That's too much like coming in onthe end of a conversation and saying something that was said in the first two minutes of the conversation. While it might be, in John's words like shitting on the head of the person who said it, it also points up your own either rudness or unintelligence-- no matter how well thought out the posting.)

BUT, that said, when you post, it will show up in its entirety and no one can step on your lines or interrupt you or overtly ignore you. That feature has given me the courage to say some things I might just quietly THINK in a 3D group of people. (Yes, I am a bit shy when I feel I am not up to the quality of thought or ability in a group. Sorry.)

Perhaps flamers feel that they can say what they wish here, and people will at least have to START to read it. If they spoke that way in a #D group of us we might likely show them the door. I usually don't react, but then I'm not the one being flamed, (and when I was, my daughter stood up for me before I could react. Again it was a GUEST posting)

I must admit I have been called enough names in my life (heck, before I got out of High School!) to never wish it on someone else, so I can't quite get into a flamer's skin, but these are my thoughts.

BTW Liz, glad to see you up and posting! (I've not been around much, except to check in on Barry...)

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:51 PM

Another two cents. Some flamers here are people who believe that the world is fundamentally driven by self-interest and power; and that anyone who says or acts differently is either a hypocrite or a fool. It is a sort of pseudo-Nietzschean approach: only conflict really brings out the truth that we are really at war with one another. They proceed to try and create conflict, so that at the end of the day they can say: "See, your wimpy little masks of sweetness are off, and you are revealed to be a nasty bastard like me, but at least I admit it." It is a way of being superior. It is usually brought on by expressions of concern, prayer circles, and so on -- the flamer has to wreck these overt threats to his world view. More fundamentally, any expression of community like the Mudcat is a threat, and has to be unmasked as a potentially seething mass of mutual hypocrisy. It is all very childish and tedious.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:45 PM

So succinct Peter T. Wish I could be so precise. Cheers GB


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

There are a couple of things I think about this issue.

1. I don't find commuication here at Mudcat any more messed up, overall, than it is IRL. To me this says Mudcat is not such a bad place.

2. There are fewer people here at Mudcat, in this large community, who I cannot deal with (effectively, functionally, and mutually productively) than there are in the small community in which I move, IRL. To me this says Mudcat is a pretty good place.

3. I DO find communication here is often more effective, functional, and mutually productive than it usually is IRL. The depth, frequency, and breadth of high-level communication here is actually amazing. To me this says Mudcat is a REALLY good place.

4. I run across more people trying to intentionally grow and develop as a human being, here at Mudcat, than I run into IRL, although I expect it equally in both settings. Part of this reality is that in doing this, those so engaged encourage and help and support others similarly engaged. To me this says that Mudcat is a special place.

5. ALthough I often fall short of implementing what I know works, what I know works is to affirm what is good, whether large or small, and especially if it is a step someone is taking in a positive direction... especially here at Mudcat.

6. I know through a long process of dedicated effort in a number of settings, personal and professional, that a smidge of attention placed accurately on a good thing trying to happen has a MUCH, MUCH greater total effect on the wellbeing of all that is occurring than does even the most informed, accurate, caring criticsm.

What I find to affirm in this thread is that we all (who are posting) seem to care about our Mudcat community, want it to function well, and that there are a large number of smart people who think about it.

What I think is worth acting upon is this-- that it is our own responses to whatever we find hard to encounter, that we can see with some accuracy, that we can hope to understand, that we can work on if we choose, and that we can be responsible about. The effort to make sense out of others' behaviors that, at heart, do not make sense, will bring us back to that each time we try to think about it. The problem we can address is never "That Guy Over There." The problem we can address is always, "How do I respond this time to what I perceive about That Guy Over There?"

I like to look at the potentially-long moments that flash by so fast. Here is one, and we can let it flash by or we can modify our awareness and see into it. Here is what I see when I do that... Whatever "That Guy Over There" has just done, each time, is done.... it's OVER. We cannot affect it; it is done. What we can do, each time, hasn't happened yet. And this makes a big, powerful opportunity, limited only by our flexibility and ingenuity. Our moment to respond is always before us, a blank slate awaiting our wisdom.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:17 PM

To me it seems that the mentality of flamers is akin to those who dream up computer viruses.

Admittedly the virus originators have more power to wreak havok, and they do not necessarily see the results of their efforts, but they intend to hinder, not help, which is where they find their pleasure.

We meet people like this every day, and a large percentage of them are behind the wheel of a car at the time. It can be difficult to ignore them!!

Live and let live. Allowing them to get to you means they win!


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