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To Play What You Like or What They Want.

Little Neophyte 11 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM
jeffp 11 Apr 01 - 03:16 PM
Midchuck 11 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM
Murray MacLeod 11 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM
Rick Fielding 11 Apr 01 - 03:23 PM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 03:24 PM
Mooh 11 Apr 01 - 03:29 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Apr 01 - 03:33 PM
Bedubya 11 Apr 01 - 03:34 PM
Little Neophyte 11 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM
Justa Picker 11 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM
Murray MacLeod 11 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM
jeffp 11 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 03:50 PM
Mooh 11 Apr 01 - 04:02 PM
catspaw49 11 Apr 01 - 04:16 PM
UB Ed 11 Apr 01 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Sam Pirt 11 Apr 01 - 05:46 PM
mousethief 11 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM
John Hardly 11 Apr 01 - 07:38 PM
Little Neophyte 11 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM
Little Neophyte 11 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,djh 11 Apr 01 - 10:54 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 11 Apr 01 - 11:07 PM
Little Neophyte 12 Apr 01 - 02:32 PM
catspaw49 12 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Russ 13 Apr 01 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Jim Krause 13 Apr 01 - 12:24 PM
Midchuck 13 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM
Mark Clark 13 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM
Little Neophyte 13 Apr 01 - 02:34 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Apr 01 - 03:43 PM
Murray MacLeod 13 Apr 01 - 04:43 PM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Apr 01 - 06:00 PM
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Subject: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM

Rick Fielding is going to have a good laugh over this thread because he warned me about this dilemma.
Recently I took my banjo over to a family gathering because they wanted to hear me play. I wanted to play all the old-time banjo tunes I am currently learning but I could see that is not what they wanted to hear. They were looking for well-known banjo tunes or folk songs such as 'Oh Suzanna', 'Skip to My Lou' and 'Old Joe Clark'. They wanted to hear folk songs they could sing along to like 'This Land Is Your Land' and 'Puff the Magic Dragon'.
I now count my blessings that Rick did teach me how to play basic chords and how to find the 3 chords needed to play almost any folk song. I am so thankful that I did not only focus on learning to play old-time banjo tunes from the beginning of my lessons with Rick. If I had, I would have been totally lost as to how to play the folk songs that my relatives wanted to hear. I never realized the importance of this until now. So although I will continue to learn the music I want to play, I now realized it is best to always have a handful of tunes that everyone could sing along to.
This was a major lesson for me this past weekend.

Do others experience this problem. Do you play what others want to hear and not what you want to play?

Just wondering....
Little Neo


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:16 PM

I know what you mean, Bonnie. Every summer, my sister-in-law has a pool party and I am expected to bring my guitar. I usually manage to do a few songs I want to play, but it generally turns into "request night." I have found that a copy of "Rise Up Singing" can really help when people request something I don't know.

I used to resent all the calls for "dumb old camp songs," but I've come to realize that it's a bonding experience for everyone and it's all a lot of fun, which is the whole idea, really. But go ahead and show off a little, too. You deserve it.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM

My friend, Dick McCormack, who is such a blatherskate that he went into politics from a background as a full-time folksinger, made the point in a promotional brochure he put out year ago, that (paraphased from his text):

An entertainer who plays only to please the audience is a whore. An entertainer who plays only to satisfy his own internal artistic vision is a crashing bore unless he's a genius, and very few of us are geniuses. All the rest of us have to find a line between the two extremes, that works for us.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM

"All the rest of us have to find a line between the two extremes, that works for us"

*applauds*

exactly right! Well put...

;-)


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM

This is an issue, and the answer lies with where your ambitions lie, and what you perceive your "market" to be.

If your ambition is to become a household name, a nationally known artiste, and you really believe you have the ability to do so, then you play your "own " music, be it self-penned or traditional. AND you always keep your goal in front of you. And I wish you the very best of luck.

If on the other hand , your aim is simply to provide entertainment for a gathering of people in a bar, living-room or whatever, then I believe that it behoves you to acquire as many styles and songs as possible. You will find that the more varied your repertoire, the more you are in demand.

Just MHO. I can understand that others may disagree.

Murray


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:23 PM

Bonnie. From the day I started seriously playing (about 15) til the day he died (when I was 18) My father would ask me to play "The Blue Tail Fly" and "Oh Susannah".

To me they were stupid commercial songs. I played what I considered to be "serious" folk music.

He must have been hurt. I'd give five years of my life to have five minutes with him and play one of his "requests".

I've always tried to offer my students the option of playing to make others happy as well as themselves. It's quite easy to do both.

"Well I come from Alabama........"!!

Rick


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:24 PM

At home I play what I want. I also try to spin what I like into what I feel my audience may enjoy. 99% of the time I'm working with other people's songs and dare say the majority of those songs are "popular." So, perhaps by default, I'm playing what others want to hear and am fortunate to enjoy the same songs.

I believe your goal as a performer is to please your audience. If you're playing for your supper, it becomes even more critical. I also believe if you're playing what you really like to play and can convey your joy to the audience you;ll be in good shape.

If you're playing what you like and get a request, its great to play the request (or as much as you know) as soon as practical. You establish a bond with the requester and demonstrate your openess to their opinions and taste. Generally, the audience will recognize that and reciprocate.

Of course, I just want to play...


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:29 PM

Little Neo,

I sympathize. It was humbling for me the first time I realized that others wanted to hear things other than what I chose.

I suppose I've ranted about musical prostitution before so I'll skip the tirade. Years ago I compromised and kept a few nuggets on hand for those who want to hear what they know, the rest of the time (all of the time if I can) I play whatever I want. For the life of me I can't understand why the musicians can't call the tune and play requests at their own discretion without others demanding only what's familiar to them. It was a hard lesson for me and I suppose it's the price of playing out. I do draw the line at "play it like so-and-so"...no, I play it like me. All in all I think I can play at least 3/4 of what I want to 1/4 of what they want and get away with it at the worst of times. At the best of times, I play my choices only.

Perhaps trying to force my own agenda (read repertoire)has made me a better player and presenter of my repertoire. In any event, I might have it easier as a guitarist, banjo players might be more type-cast. You think?

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:33 PM

"playing to make others happy as well as themselves"

Ahhh... the best of both worlds... ain't it grand!

;-)


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Bedubya
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:34 PM

Little Neo

The only song my father ever wants to hear me play on guitar is "Freight Train". The only one my mother ever wants is Marty Robbins' "El Paso". Other than that it wouldn't matter to them if I played like Tony Rice or Elmer Fudd. Family is family, not an audience.

On the other hand, if you play much with other people you will eventually find yourself at some 3:OOAM jam session where someone you thought played nothing but Donnegal fiddle tunes will decide to do "Under the Boardwalk" and you will not only know how to play it, but it will be a truly serendipitous experience and you will be all the richer for it.

Play anything. It's all good!

Bruce


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:38 PM

Mooh, the only thing I've been 'type-cast' to is the song from the movie Deliverance. And you know what?.....I am going to learn it because I know it will make all those folks requesting it so happy.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM

Well when I get together with my family, they never ask me to play (so consider yourself blessed that your family ASKED you to play for them.) I am the only musical person in mine. On those rare occasions when I have brought a guitar along, I played what I wanted to play, but of course when it comes to appreciating live music my parents and siblings have the attention span of a knat. I get about 30 seconds into something, and they all unanymously exclaim "that's nice", so I've given up on them.

What kills me, is that they play my recordings over and over again from MP3s I've sent them, and they play them for all their friends too. Yet when presented with an opportunity to hear me play a few things for them in person, all I get is complete apathy, or my father shouting "who in their right mindt vood pay 4 tousindt dollars for a piece of wood mit strings on it?"


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

You know, it really does depend on the venue. Obviously you are not going to walk on stage at the Old Songs Fest and play "Puff the Magic Dragon". Similarly, when I do a gig at a retirement home, I am not going to inflict "Matt Hyland " on them. As long as you have the ability, and the repertoire, to make the choice, then be happy.

Murray


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

I would certainly like to hear "Under the Boardwalk" played by a Donegal-style fiddler. That would be a truly uplifting experience!

jeffp


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 03:50 PM

Bonnie, careful with that Deliverance song. Conjurs up scary visuals.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:02 PM

Neo.

Re: Deliverance. Right on!

I re-read my post and it sounded more intolerant than I intended. Others are right, it depends on the venue, but don't feel you have to be a juke-box, you DO have the right to make selections for yourself. The skill lies in playing what you want and making the audience like it or think they've asked for it. Knowing other songs in certain styles, asking the audience if they want to hear whatever, and so on, can make it seem like you're delivering the goods as ordered when you've delivered the goods slightly modified. It works.

Good discussion.

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:16 PM

At one point or another in any non-folkie gathering, Michael will have to row the boat ashore. Play it and smile. Bitch about it here.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: UB Ed
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:47 PM

As well as the Unicorn Song...


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:46 PM

Oh Suzanna ROCKS!!

It has finished many a stormin celidh set.

Cheers, Sam


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM

If all you want to do is hear songs you want to hear, or songs you want to play, you can play in your bedroom by yourself.

If you're playing for an audience, you're there to please the audience. If you absolutely cannot stand the audience-pleasing songs, stay in your bedroom.

Most audiences will tolerate songs they don't know as long as they can get them intermixed with songs they do know. This way they learn new songs, which of course (if they're good and you play them at all reasonably well) they'll ask for by name NEXT time.

In this way you'll increase their listening repertoire.

Alex


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:38 PM

There is one more factor to be mentioned here.

Especially if you pride yourself on skillful arranging or original work.

The playing of songs that are familiar to the audience/listener in your style, gives them a window of understanding into what you are doing with the music with which they are NOT familiar.

Said another way (because even I don't understand what I just wrote), familiar songs are a great tool to convey to your audience the nature of YOUR style.

JH


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM

The problem I ran into is the fact I am just starting to learn old-time music so I haven't been playing anything else but. I want to get a good grasp of that old-timey stuff which may take me a few years. So, last November I put everything else aside I was working on and focused only on developing my clawhammer, and now I want to narrow down to learn a particular style of clawhammer and particular tunes from a particular area of West Virginia. The problem now is when someone wants to hear me play my banjo and they don't want to hear the old-time tunes I am working on, it is not like I have a treasure chest of folk tunes under my belt. I've been playing the banjo for 2 years.
So last weekend I struggled somewhat because my repertoire on basic folk tunes is very weak. Yet, at the same time I want to narrow in and really learn the West Virginia music. It does create a delemma for me. From what I experienced last weekend and what I am reading on these posting here, it confirms to me I must set some time aside that is not just solely devoted to learning the old-time tunes. If I had my way, that is the only thing I want to learn right now.
But at the same time, I would like to share my music in a way that will make others happy. That is important too.
Thats okay, but when you are just learning something, it feels like I will never get where I want to go if I have to thin myself out so much by learn everything all at once to make everybody happy.
It feels like a tall order.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM

John, this makes sense what you wrote.......'The playing of songs that are familiar to the audience/listener in your style, gives them a window of understanding into what you are doing with the music with which they are NOT familiar.'

I've noticed that when I do play a tune like 'Oh Suzanna' now, it sound so different from when I used to play it because I may still be doing clawhammer, but with all my focus on West Virginia old-time tunes, the song was coming out sounding so differently. It was picking up some of the new influences in my music yet it still was 'Oh Suzanna' I was playing for them. And the relatives where thrilled.
This sounds encouraging.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:54 PM

I think it helps to play things the audience knows and likes. I just try to work the ones that we agree on, rather than the ones I aint interested in. They pay more attention to the song after the one they knew and liked. So you reel them back in every couple of songs with the familiar stuff.
Just picking, I sympathize, there are members of my family that have never heard me play. They couldn't be bothered. I have 2nd cousins that have driven 40 minutes to drop in for a set and a brother who doesn't even know what kind of music I make.
Don't let it bother you, some people think all music should come with Tracks listed on the jacket. It is just a sad sign of the times. 80 years ago they would've loved having you play for them, 60 years ago they wouldve prefered you and liked the phonograph, 40years ago they wouldve at very least thought it a refreshing change from the record player. Now they think the sterile CD ,that don't even sound as good as the record player, is all the music they need or want and the live album is even becoming a rarer beast.ah progress gotta love it.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 11:07 PM

If you're a professional, you play the kind of music that the audience wants you to, within reason. They are paying your bills, and, if you're a real pro, you can make it quite enjoyable for both of you.
If the audience wants to har Home on the Range, sing it, and by the weay, the second third and fourth verses are remarkably good poetry. This goes for a lot of songs that most people only know the first verse to. There are, for instance 5 verses to "Nellie Gray"If you find a book with all 5 verses, prepare yourself in advance to be smitten by this collosal tragedy. I don;t mind telling you that I broke down and cried like a baby the first time I tried to sing it.


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:32 PM

I thought about what I wrote yesterday and it still feels unsettling. The truth is, I just want to play the old-time music I am studying right now. If folks want to hear me play other stuff, well I'll do the best I can. Rick Fielding gave me a great foundation to figure out basic chord structures for most folk songs. So I will work with what I've been taught. But I am not going to spend much time on it. It does come down to what is important to me......playing for myself or playing for others. I don't know.... I am not a professional. I just want to play my banjo and play the tunes I enjoy.
I guess I'll be waffling with this one for a long time.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM

This thread is almost in three different directions. As a pro/entertainer, as a player with a passionate interest, and as a person with an instrument in a group of people. I think the answers are different in each case and each has been addressed to some degree.

Cranky does a good job on one and I think we all have some personal preferences if someone just "wants to hear you play." I think the third is much like having your instrument (esp a guitar or banjo) in some social situation like camping. When people want you to play then, you can probably get off a tune or two before they get bored, because in many cases what they really want to do are things they know. In those cases, I find it a lot more fun to play whatever it is and have fun. You might even be able to teach them a "new one" that you like.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:06 PM

You are getting a lot of good advice.

First, the songs which are old and well known and popular and overdone are that way because they are good. CRANKY YANKEE got this one. Often they are very good. Sometimes incredibly good. Really. Almost all the tunes named in this thread are classics and chestnuts and overdone and trite because they are great tunes. They are good enough to repay the effort it takes to create arrangements of them that you find satisfying.

Second, clawhammer banjo playing in general, and Dwight's style in particular, is not for the emotionally fragile or needy. Clawhammer banjo players don't get no respect even from other old times musicians, much less people who are totally ignorant of old time music. The banjo players that old time fiddlers like best in a jam are they ones they cannot hear. If you want applause and praise and positive feedback from the uninitiated, Old Time Music (OTM) is not the best choice. However, it is perfectly OK to want applause and praise and positive feedback. It is OK to want "share [your] music in a way that will make others happy".

Third, John Hardly nailed it and you confirmed it with your own experience: "It was picking up some of the new influences in my music yet it still was 'Oh Susannah' I was playing for them. And the relatives where thrilled." Playing "popular" tunes does not have to be a compromise. Even if you are currently obsessed with spooky old WV fiddle tunes, you can learn a lot by applying Dwight's style to a chestnut. He does it himself. Listen to his killer version of "She'll be coming round the mountain." A key part of making a style your own is to use it to do new tunes. One of the things that impresses me most about a musician is the ability to take a tune that I think I know inside and out and have dismissed and play it in a way that makes me realize that I have never really heard it before.

Fourth, learning to play the banjo is not about learning tunes. You are not neglecting OTM if you develop your own arrangement of "Oh Susannah" instead of working on "Abe's Retreat." After all, "Oh Susannah" IS OTM just as much as "Shelvin Rock" or "Calloway."

Keep up the good work.

Russ (Fellow Dwightciple)


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: GUEST,Jim Krause
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:24 PM

Rick
"I'd give five years of my life to have five minutes with him and play one of his 'requests.'"

Me too. My dad always requested Jerry Jeff Walker's Mr. Beaujangles. After awhile I got rather bored with it. Now I wish I had been a little more creative and imaginative with arrangements to keep me interested in the song.

Therein, I think, lies the answer, partially. While on the one hand as a performer you want to include some familiar material, there must be a way to make an old chestnut interesting to you as a performer, and at the same time satisfy your audience.
Jim


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM

CrankyYankee: Get Ian Tyson's album, "And Stood There Amazed," and listen to him do "Home on the Range." That's an outstanding example of a worn-out old chestnut brought back to life simply by someone singing it who really feels what it says, doesn't mind saying so. Your post reminded me of it.

Peter (I look forward to St. Patrick's day every year, because I get to sing "Danny Boy." It's a fun song to sing, especially when you get to watch people sweating out whether you're going to make the high notes. And it gets my partners' adrenaline going, which is good for them.)


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM

To paraphrase a verse from the old song "Rye Whisky"

They say I play old-time, my banjo's my own,
And them that don't like it can leave me alone.

Old-timey, old-timey, old-timey I play,
If you don't want old-timey I'll be on my way.

Don't worry, just keep on pickin',

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 02:34 PM

Thanks guys. Sharing my troubles here with you has been so very helpful. I can now see my path much clearer and look forward to bringing myself out in any old tune.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 03:43 PM

One other factor can be thrown into the mix. From the age of 15 til about 20, I played ONLY pretty traditional folk music. It filled a big hole in my life.

When it came time to "grow up" and earn a living, I had a real dilemma. I'd thrown away my ability to be disciplined in anything that wasn't enjoyable to me. I half-heartedly attempted to join the mainstream work-force, as a commercial artist, junior advertising guy, mailroom boy, accounts receivable flunky, and a half dozen other things. It simply didn't work. I couldn't even FAKE caring about whether the company I worked for (and my co-workers, sadly) lived or died. I felt completely hostile, and consequently was incompetent at even the most menial task.

Learning a broad repertoire of music and playing commercially for my living was the only option I felt I had. I didn't HATE the songs I sang for twenty years in bars, but alone in those Hotel rooms I played Leadbelly, and Riley Puckett.

If you DO like your day job, (I sure do NOW. I teach.) then there's no real neccessity to learn more than an extra five tunes to keep the family happy. The rest of the time....play what you love!

Hey Jim, Bet there's a lot of us in that situation.

Rick


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 04:43 PM

I reckon John Hardly hit the nail on the head. If you really ARE a creative musician, then you can derive immense satisfaction and reap big kudos by applying your creative talents to even the most worn-out chestnuts, while still satisfying the audience's lust for familiar material.

There is no better exponent of this than Martin Simpson. Some weeks ago, in his hotel room, (while we were discussing how we both abhor name-droppers) he played and sang a couple of verses of "Little Liza Jane". Do you know, I couldn't get that song out of my head for a week?

Murray


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Subject: RE: To Play What You Like or What They Want.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 06:00 PM

Guest Russ exulted about hearing someone play old chestnuts with variations that brought them alive. This brought to mind a wonderful experience I had about a year ago, at the Maryland Banjo Academy.

There was a class with Mac Benford, a fine banjoist/singer. Well, he's a fine banjoist, and he's a singer. The name of the class was "Spicing up Banjo Solos with Phrasing" or something close to that.

Besides Benford there were maybe as many as 12 in the class. First Benford asked us to pick out a banjo piece in G tuning that we all knew. After a little jockeying, we came up with--what else?--Cripple Creek.

Now, for non-banjo players, you should know that almost every banjo player's first tune was Cripple Creek. If it wasn't the first, it was surely one of the first. We learned it with the minimal ability and understanding we had then, and moved on to other things as we expanded our abilities. Cripple Creek was left behind by most of us as a "baby tune" or something.

Benford had us identify the few absolute notes that form the skeleton of the tune, with no chords, no grace notes, nuthin--just enough for one who knows the tune to recognize it. They we considered the first phrase, that would be covered by I believe the first two measures, and went around, person to person, each of us to put forward a different way of playing the tune--any way, so that those skeleton notes were there (or strongly implied).

We went around, using slides, using hammer-ons, pulloffs, chokes, head-taps, rhythm inversions, rests, and so on until we'd worked out what seemed to be ALL the ways those two measures could be played and still be Cripple Creek. It was enlightening!

Then the next two measures, and so through the song. It was a treasure box! That simple (or maybe simple-minded) tune had so much available.

Then in Double C tuning we did the same thing for Angeline the Baker. Same experience.

That class was SUCH an eye-opener! I've gone back into most of what I played and taken a look at what could be done, and of course for new tunes I try to apply the principle. It gave me a big jump-start, I'll tell you!

DAve Oesterreich


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Mudcat time: 24 September 2:59 PM EDT

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