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Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?

Bonecruncher 25 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM
The Doctor 25 Feb 10 - 08:27 AM
IanC 25 Feb 10 - 07:57 AM
The Doctor 25 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Feb 10 - 11:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM
Rowan 24 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM
YorkshireYankee 24 Feb 10 - 01:33 PM
manitas_at_work 24 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM
The Doctor 24 Feb 10 - 04:44 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Feb 10 - 12:57 AM
The Vulgar Boatman 23 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM
Uncle_DaveO 23 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Feb 10 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM
Dave Hanson 23 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM
John MacKenzie 23 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM
GUEST 23 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM
robinia 22 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 22 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM
Cuilionn 22 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,PeterC 22 Feb 10 - 01:12 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM
Dave Hanson 22 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM
Anglo 05 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Apr 01 - 07:14 PM
Greyeyes 05 Apr 01 - 06:11 PM
Penny S. 05 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM
Bert 05 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Apr 01 - 05:38 PM
GMT 05 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM
Noreen 05 Apr 01 - 08:30 AM
Snuffy 05 Apr 01 - 08:26 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 01 - 01:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM
Penny S. 04 Apr 01 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 04 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM
Anglo 04 Apr 01 - 11:53 AM
GUEST, Snoopy 04 Apr 01 - 11:49 AM
Anglo 04 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 04 Apr 01 - 09:18 AM
Snuffy 04 Apr 01 - 08:58 AM
The Walrus at work 04 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM
IanC 04 Apr 01 - 06:19 AM
Ella who is Sooze 04 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,SeanM, having cookie issues 04 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM
Mad Maudlin 04 Apr 01 - 03:03 AM
Edmund 03 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Let us not forget Shrowsbury which has become Shrewsbury, and Crewkerne which was always Crookerne to the locals.
Much changed pronunciation comes from television and radio presenters who refer to a "definitve" dictionary of local pronunciations, usually compiled by "incomers"!
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Doctor
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:27 AM

I wasn't suggesting he was correct. Perhaps I should have been more emphatic.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:57 AM

Tim Hart's pronunciations in this song really are rubbish all the way through, though. As far as I know, it's invariably pronounced "Keithley" locally.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Doctor
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM

Keighley is mentioned in The Dalesman's Litany, and when Tim Hart recorded the song on Folk Songs of Olde England he sang 'keeley'. Berwick is 'berrik' by the way, and many pronunciations actually relate to the original spelling of the name, which for various reasons has changed over the centuries.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:34 PM

The River Nene (one of the 4 according to the old rhyme flowing into the Wash in East Anglia who 'all went out without their shoes' - to rhyme with Ouse: the other two being, for the record, the Welland and the Waveney) is called the NEN at Northampton but the NEEN in Peterboro, not all that many miles farther on ~~ same river tho.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

People living in a place know what it's called, and how it's pronounced. They don't have to take their guidance from how someone has chosen to spell it.

People outside the place tend to use the spelling as a guide, so, since English isn't a particularly phonetic language, they are likely to get it wrong. This applies whichever side of the Atlantic you are, or whichever side of the planet.

Two Gillinghams, one with a hard G and one with a soft G.

Then there's always the question of the initial H - "In 'ertford, 'ereford and 'ampshire, 'urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen", as we say in 'appy 'arlow.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

Thankfully, the thread has answered a couple of questions that had rattled around my brain, almost forgotten, over the decades; I'd never really bothered to put the effort into digging up answers.

We have, sometimes, a similar problem on our side of the two big lakes, in Oz.

The Wauchope in the Top End (in the Northern Territory) is pronounced Walk-up, but
the Wauchope in NSW is pronounced War-hope.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

Daniel Defoe, in his Travels around Britain in the early 18thC, visited my town, Sowerby Bridge, (in Yorkshire, between Keighley and Slaithwaite!) and queried why it was spelt so, since all the locals called it Sorby Brigg, as they still do today.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:33 PM

Here in Yorkshire, we have Slaithwaite (Slow-it, say the OW as in "ouch") and Keighley (Keeth-lee).

When I first moved here from the US, I used to play a little game with my husband whenever we went traveling; I'd look at the road signs and try to guess the pronunciation(s) of the towns indicated thereon. After 2 or 3 attempts on my part, hubbie would tell me what the actual pronunciation is (if he knew; he's originally from "down south", so isn't necessarily already familiar with each & every one of Yorkshire's quirky pronunciations).

After 11 + years here, I now (sometimes!) manage to get it right on my very first guess -- at which point I am (justifiably, IMHO) "dead chuffed"...

YY


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM

IS Berwick really pronounced berrik or is it bewwik, in which case Airwick would be ewwick whicjh sounds about right.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:16 AM

No good asking WHY when it comes to logic in English spelling, Doc ~ isn't that too thorough rough and tough, though; so cough and bough [or bow] & accept it. Enough, though, through & through.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Doctor
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:44 AM

A group of names which don't seem to have been mentioned so far:-
If Chiswick is pronounced 'chizzik', Flitwick is pronounced 'flittik', Berwick is pronounced 'berrik', Alnwick is pronounced 'annik',(I could go on), why isn't Airwick pronounced 'eric'?


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:57 AM

ARE-kin-saw.
But if you're talking about the river, which is spelled just like the State, "Arkansas", it's "the Ar-KAN-Zus River
."==== Uncle DaveO

Is it? Lisa Null sings, "I saw them come down an Arroyo ~ Alongside of the Ar·kan·saw sands": that is, in Colorado, N of New Mexico, in 'The Santa-Fe Trail'.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only a Brit could say "maudlin" was a reasonable way to pronounce MAG-da-leen.
But we don't have two places called Houston which have different pronunciations
Nigel Parsons.

Maybe : but we have several Newports, some of which are Newport and others New-put[or sort of].


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM

This could explain why I spent a weekend getting out of me tree at Happisburgh when I thought I was in Hazeboro. It's Norfolk and good.
KYBTTS


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

Mcgrath asked it, and I think it was Mousethief who answered this way:

Incidentally, what was the name of that state Bill Clinton came from?

ARE-kin-saw.


But if you're talking about the river, which is spelled just like the State, "Arkansas", it's "the Ar-KAN-Zus River."

Go figure.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:18 PM

Only a Brit could say "maudlin" was a reasonable way to pronounce MAG-da-leen.
But we don't have two places called Houston which have different pronunciations.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

What a Great and Grand Music Topic!!!!!!!!
What a bunch of Geeks!


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM

But not quite as bad as ' Kilkelly '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

The Fields of Athenry.

Now that's what I CALL maudlin ☺


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM

Only a Brit could say "maudlin" was a reasonable way to pronounce MAG-da-leen.

Arkansas cf Kansas City?
Stouffville?
Mobile?

And just where did the penchant for tripping the unwary verbally come from? English (US) is still a patois of English.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: robinia
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM

A class thing? It's also kind of a "gang" thing--a way of distinguishing insiders from outsiders. So we smiled in West Virginia when national newscasters talked about a toxic spill on the Kanawha River, struggling to pronounce all the consonants instead of simply saying K'naw.   And Oregon is a simple enough name, but "outsiders" have a way of revealing themselves by overstressing the last syllable.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Cuillon - OED give muddle related to mud from Old Dutch/Old Saxon.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM

So, fellow etymaudlinogists, is "maudle" the origin of the term "muddle" or does muddle have a different linguistic lineage?

BTW, my partner (a bagpiper and Child ballad enthusiast) refers to her favourite musical genre as "Minor Modal Maudlin."


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 01:12 PM

One of my favorites is Marylebone. Just about every variant seems acceptable except Mary-le-bone.

As McGrath said It breaks down with incomers. I now live in Chesham. I have had my pronunciation corrected in other parts of the county to Chess-am or Chezzum but I never hear either locally although I have heard recordings of local people using those pronunciations in the 1950s

One the other hand a local will seldom refer to Rickmansworth as anything except Ricky.

Back to the original in Oxford the college and the street are "Maudlin" but I believe that the suburban Magdelen Road is pronounced as written.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

Somebody above asserted that Grosvenor was pronounced Growner.

No it isn't:

it's pronounced Grow-v-ner ~~~

Trust me ··· I know ~~


~~Michael Grosvenor Myer~~


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 09:56 AM

My name is David, usually pronounced ' that annoying bugger on the banjo '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Anglo
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM

So I'll throw this one in here. When is "Strachan" pronounced "Strackan" (as in the Coventry City football manager), and when id it pronounced "Strawn"? In particular, (to give us a folk music connection) how did the Scottish traditional singer John Strachan pronounce his name?


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:14 PM

Had to butt out of politics in the end because of a bit of dodgy moneymaking technique. Things don't change much.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 06:11 PM

Reg Maudling, Tory, stood against Heath for the leadership at one point I think.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM

Wasn't there a politician called Maudling? And thanks about Tooley - I had a vague memory of it (and a tutor by the name) but I thought it might have been an anglicisation of somthing Irish which could not be represented in the roman alphabet. Osyth was a much nicer saint than Olaf, anyway.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:47 PM

LOL McGrath. You should start a new thread for that and get some more Mudcatty definitions.

BTW, just HOW do pronounce your name again? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:38 PM

"Maudling" - a kind of mournful yodelling...


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GMT
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM

Noreen, I'm so good at it but never knew what it was called BG.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:30 AM

Thanks, GMT- I like the idea of it becoming a verb- so we're all going to maudle the next next time we have a little too much to drink? :0)


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:26 AM

I don't know about Toomey, but Tooley Street in east London is allegedly from St Olaf


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:56 AM

Magdala (home of Mary Magdalene) was the Greek name of the town, which was located on the northwest shore of the Sea of Galilee, about 4 miles north of Tiberias. It was a center of fishing and fish packing. the town's name may come from the Hebrew word migdol, meaning "tower" - or so say my scripture guides.
It's kind of a pretty place, quite rural with narrow roads. There are big hills nearby that give great vistas of the Sea of Galilee.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM

It breaks down with incomers - up the road a couple of miles from Harlow there's Sawbridgeworth, and that used to be pronounced Sapsworth, of course. But it gets the long pronunciation these days.

But there's still Bobbingworth, pronounced Bovinger - two roads lead to it with two signposts. One says Bobbingworth, one says Bovinger.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 07:22 PM

My parents moved to Cirencester - we had heard that it was said Cisseter, but the locals all said Ciren (sounds like siren with a z (sort of)), and my second ciousin who was stationed nearby in the war said the folk near Kemble called it Sister. There seems to be a class thing. Ciceter (usual spelling) requires a narrow mouth shape more often found with upper class vowels, while Ciren is a broader more rural sound. I've chickened out and say the whole thing.

There is evidence that the Celts started this sort of thing under the Romans. Durobrivae, the fort at the bridges, became Robri, heard by the Jutes as Hrofi, a personal name - they called it Hrofi's ceaster, which became Rochester. We don't like long names, or ones which require over-energetic mouth movements. Nothing to do with the way Coemhen is pronounced Kevin.

Try Trottiscliffe - Trosley, Shipbourne - Shibburn, Wrotham - Root'm. Then there's Finglesham, which ought to be Thinglesham, but has had an f since the conquest.

And how should one pronounce Chesney? Like Cheyne Walk?

Another thread referred to my alma mater St. Osyth's, pronounced Toosey. I've wondered if Toomey came from St. Omer.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Ella}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Anglo
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:53 AM

Walrus wrote:
It could be worse, imagine the Gloucestershire Fetherstonehaughs and the Worscestershire Chesneys travelling from Cirencester to Alnwick to meet the Mainwarings

OK I'll bite. Despite Worcestershire birth, I was never upper class enough to know how to pronounce Featherstonehaugh, Chesney,or Mainwaring. (I did once meet a ffolkes, though).


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST, Snoopy
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:49 AM

I always go over to Bill Mauldin's house on Veteran's Day to quaff a few root beers.

Snoopy


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Anglo
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM

SeanM said:

Hmmm... I can understand the "Magdalene" connection, but I was always under the impression that the modern useage (i.e., melancholy, introspective) got a boost and slight redefinition from the definitely maudlin "Willie & Joe" cartoons from WW II, drawn by Bill Maudlin.

Any thoughts? Or was he just an appropriately named cartoonist?
br>

Well, the cartoons might have been maudlin, but the cartoonists name was Mauldin.


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:18 AM

Since I moved to Airscot this Brummie has had to get used to going to "drink spotties".
Greek friends can't understand why my Greek is so much worse than their English as Greek is an entirely phonetic language while they have to struggle with the multiple pronunciations of "ough".
When asked to decipher Greek for colleagues at work I tell them I can read it out, but don't always (or usually!) know what it means!
Time to get the language tapes out again!
RtS


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:58 AM

We can't even agree among ourselves - half the folks round here pronounce Alcester as Olsester and the other half say Olster. But however you say it, I hope to see plenty of 'Catters there for the Alcester and Arden Folk Festival in June.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:36 AM

Edmund,

Indeed, Cholomondly (and Chalmondley) is pronounced "Chumley"; Mainwaring is pronounced "Mannering" and Featherstonehaugh is pronounced (wait for it)"Fanshaw" (don't ask me why).

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 06:19 AM

Hi

Interesting thing

In Cambridge, we pronounce Magdelene as Maudlin (see above). I had always been told it was the other way about in Oxford!

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM

for Maudelin.... see Ella - my uncle died this morning, feel really fed up and maudelin


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: GUEST,SeanM, having cookie issues
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM

Hmmm... I can understand the "Magdalene" connection, but I was always under the impression that the modern useage (i.e., melancholy, introspective) got a boost and slight redefinition from the definitely maudlin "Willie & Joe" cartoons from WW II, drawn by Bill Maudlin.

Any thoughts? Or was he just an appropriately named cartoonist?

M


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 03:03 AM

Yesterday I read that there was a period of the Neolithic called Magdalenien. Does this mean they sat around in their caves all day, playing the prehistoric mandolin (hello Murray) and lamenting the good old days when mammoths still were huge and the saber-toothed tigers really could kick butt and everything was better in general? It should be renamed Maudlinien, then! :-)

Mad Maudlin, just being silly


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Subject: RE: Help: Origin of word 'maudlin'?
From: Edmund
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM

Do I remember that the name Cholomondly is pronounced Chumley? Edmund


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