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BS: No Smoking Update

Sourdough 09 Apr 01 - 12:00 AM
Ebbie 09 Apr 01 - 01:45 AM
jeffp 09 Apr 01 - 08:13 AM
Big Tim 09 Apr 01 - 10:00 AM
Jande 09 Apr 01 - 10:49 AM
Big Tim 09 Apr 01 - 04:05 PM
John Routledge 09 Apr 01 - 09:06 PM
chip a 10 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM
Amergin 10 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM
Hollowfox 10 Apr 01 - 02:39 PM
Don Firth 10 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM
Gypsy 11 Apr 01 - 01:29 AM
Amergin 17 Apr 01 - 02:16 AM
nutty 17 Apr 01 - 04:51 AM
Big Tim 17 Apr 01 - 04:52 AM
nutty 17 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM
jeffp 17 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM
nutty 17 Apr 01 - 11:10 AM
Amergin 17 Apr 01 - 11:14 AM
Amergin 17 Apr 01 - 11:17 AM
Amergin 28 Apr 01 - 03:26 PM
okthen 28 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM
nutty 28 Apr 01 - 05:26 PM
Amergin 28 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM
nutty 28 Apr 01 - 08:09 PM
Ebbie 28 Apr 01 - 10:37 PM
Chip2447 29 Apr 01 - 06:07 PM
nutty 29 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM
jeffp 30 Apr 01 - 08:18 AM
nutty 30 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM
Llanfair 30 Apr 01 - 11:40 AM
BlueJay 30 Apr 01 - 01:05 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 01 - 02:50 PM
Jande 11 May 01 - 09:57 PM
Chip2447 11 May 01 - 11:19 PM
Amergin 12 May 01 - 12:25 AM
Chip2447 12 May 01 - 02:10 PM
Ebbie 12 May 01 - 07:07 PM
Amergin 12 May 01 - 08:28 PM
okthen 13 May 01 - 07:55 AM
Big Tim 13 May 01 - 10:19 AM
nutty 13 May 01 - 05:19 PM
jeffp 14 May 01 - 08:58 AM
Ebbie 14 May 01 - 12:27 PM
Chip2447 15 May 01 - 01:29 AM
Bugsy 15 May 01 - 02:21 AM
Amergin 30 May 01 - 01:54 PM
jeffp 30 May 01 - 02:02 PM
Little Hawk 30 May 01 - 02:06 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Sourdough
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 12:00 AM

Nutty put his (her?) finger on it about habit and psychological crutch. Fifteen years ago, I spent six months designing a smoking cessation program for the Amercan Cancer Society that was eventually published as a video. I got to spend much of that time learning the specifics of addiction in cigarette smoking in order to prepare for the video and became what is called a smoking cessation expert.

All smokers and ex-smokers will recognize the three "hooks" of cigarette addiction. How bad each one varies from one smokler to another.

One of the hooks is the physical addiction and that is what Zyban helps with. Zyban can be a major aid in cutting back on the effects of physical addiction and that can be a real help but it doesn't do much for the other two hooks and that is why is is neccessary to want to give up smoking. That is the only way to get free of the other two hooks.

The second hook is habit. When I examined my own life, I saw I had scores of deeply entrenched smoking habits: getting into a car, picking up the phone, after dinner, with coffee, sitting down to read, at the computer, taking a break from heavy concentration, taking a rest on a motorcycle trip, etc. yes- even after sex. Each situation triggered off a desire for a cigarette.

The third is the psychological addiction. For me, this was the hardest to overcome. When I was upset, hungry, happy, lonely, any of those, I wanted "my friend", the cigarette. Actually, giving up smoking was like turning my back on a trusted old friend.

Zyban doesn't solve those problems, but for many people it does help give them the energy to face up to the other two. Anyone who thinks that he can strap on a patch and the desire for cigarettes will wither away without any effort from them is bound to be disappointed.

I think I would have to say that giving up smoking (it has been fifteen years) has been one of the most important achievements of my life.

Take pride in what you have accomplished, nutty, and keep up the good work.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 01:45 AM

I remember one time about 4 months after I quit smoking when I went to breakfast with some friends. We were animatedly talking away when I became aware just about at the same time as the others that I was stomping and grinding my crust of toast into the ashtray.

And sometimes I have dreamt that I was smoking and was really put out at myself because I knew I was going to have to quit all over again. And sometimes I was just bemused, telling myself, I was kind of thinking that I had quit...

The most important thing I told myself when I was ready to quit was that the fact that it was going to be difficult to quit really had nothing to do with it- I didn't want to be a smoker anymore. That was what I kept reminding myself.

This is a GREAT thread!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:13 AM

I just completed my first week without a cigarette. At times it has been easy, at other times I would have killed for a cigarette. My wife is going through the same thing, so we lean on each other. I am now developing an addiction to little hard candies and smokehouse almonds.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:00 AM

You will probably over eat to compensate, you really should try exercise. I took up jogging and have now ran 43,000 miles!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Jande
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:49 AM

"Within 48hrs the nicotine has left the body - after that you are fighting the hand-to-mouth habit and the psychological need to reward yourself with a cigarette " ~ Sourdough

I tried quitting my pack-a-day habit four times since I started at age 16. Each time I quit for a year or longer. Then like an arrogant smartass I decided that since I had quit, I could light up a fag for a friend anytime and it wouldn't hurt anything... HAH!

I finally did quit completely. About 15 years ago now I guess. The thing that helped with the "oral habit" was taking up playing a 15-inch bamboo flute. It forced me to pull air into my lungs (instead of smoke) and it gave me something socially acceptable to put in my mouth. I spent a lot of time in the parks that summer playing out in the (relatively) fresh air.

A few years later I found out that I was allergic to smoke, and particularly tobacco smoke.

Funny how the desire to smoke just went away after I filled my life with music instead... ;`)

~ Jande


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 04:05 PM

The old joke will be new to some - Stopping smoking is easy, I've done it hundreds of times.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: John Routledge
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:06 PM

Well done Nutty. If you now regard yourself as a non-smoker rather than a smoker who has stopped you are there!

Geordie"Non-Smoker"Broon *BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: chip a
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM

Hang in there all! This is a wonderful thread. It does get easier. MUCH EASIER! Don't look back. Congratulations all around.

Chip


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

Well it is two weeks today for me, since I last had a smoke....


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Hollowfox
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 02:39 PM

All Riight!!, Amergin, Bugsy, and Mrs.Bugsy!! If enough smokers get helped through this with Mudcat, will these threads qualify as a folk remedy for tobacco addiction?


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM

Way to go!

Hang in there, folks, hang in! After smoking two to three packs a day for nearly thirty years, I quit about twenty-three years ago. I was pretty twitchy for a couple of weeks, but that passed, and soon I didn't miss it at all. I felt better, I had more energy, my singing voice started sounding better (and singing was easier), and I didn't spend fifteen minutes every morning trying to cough my lungs up.

Several weeks after I quit, I was sitting at my desk at work when someone came back from a smoke-break and sat down next to me. She reeked of tobacco smoke. It occurred to me then that "My Gawd! I used to smell like that!"

And back then, cigarettes only cost around eighty-five cents a pack.

Quitting smoking was one of the smartest things I ever did.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Gypsy
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:29 AM

It only takes 3 days to create a habit. Rather than quitting smoking, create the habit of being a non smoker. Rather than saying I can't have a smoke, think, i don't HAVE to smoke anymore. The subconcious has no logic. Repeated often enough, it will believe whatever you program it to. Really, it worked for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:16 AM

Well, it has been 3 whole weeks today. I am still not smoking. I am just wondering, how every one else is doing?


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:51 AM

WONDERFUL Amergin - so pleased to hear it. I have been thinking about you and all the others (Hope they let us know how they are getting on) BE PROUD

I've just passed the 4 months mark and am settling down to being a non-smoker - it really does get easier.

Had a message from "okthen" the other day and he is still succeeding.

GOOD LUCK to all of you - you have my best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 04:52 AM

This is only slightly relevant but some, like me, may find it both amusing and sad. It's from page one of Ian Pattison's novel "A Stranger Here Myself", Picador, 2000. Pattison is the Scottish creator of the cult character, Rab C. Nesbitt. This is Nesbitt in his mother's womb.

"A man and a woman, my parents, are arguing the toss. 'I'm having the kid' she's yelling. "You're not having the kid", the man's yelling back. There's a noise like a soup pan bouncing off a head. A moment later a knitting needle, size eight, appears like a periscope, trying to jab me up the sac. I cling to a membrane, out of harm's way. The needlt retracts. There's more yelling, screaming, and a flurry of expletives barked in rage. A door slams. All is silent but for a background muzak of gritty female wailing, a comforting noise, since it always precedes the onset of a tobacco binge and I'm twitchy and eager for a fix. Indeed I look guiltly at the nicotine stains on my unformed fingertips and make a mental note to cut down. Lately I've been finding myself out of breath after a couple of circuits of the womb and in the mornings I've been coughing up tar. Maybe tomorrow. Right now I take a great double lungful and lie back in the sac."


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

I've had a word with Treaties and she has reached the 18day mark. I,m so pleased that she is getting on well and give her full marks for having survived Lancaster Maritime Festival without weakening.

KEEP IT UP


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM

Well, yesterday was two weeks for Bonnie and me. It's getting easier, but I still miss it like an old friend. Trying to view it as gaining my freedom from the tyranny of nicotine - not too much of a stretch really.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:10 AM

GREAT -- so far everyone is doing well
It really has to be one day at a time but BELIEVE ME - it does get easier.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:14 AM

Glad to hear it, Nutcase and Treaties!! And a big round of applause to okthen, also!

yeah, I have been surprised myself about my ability to be strong at the pub....but then having practically told the world that I quit is a strong deterrent in and of itself....


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:17 AM

and another big hand for Jeffp and Bonnie!


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 03:26 PM

Well, this Tuesday will be five weeks for me....how is everyone else doing? Still not smoking the fags I hope...


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: okthen
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM

Still going , but find myself falling into the "giving up is easy, I can do it anyoldtime" trap, just one won't hurt or won't mean anything. So far I haven't given in a second time but sometimes when I'm tired........

Just to give you a warning of what may lay ahead Amergin, forewarned is forearmed.

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 05:26 PM

Food is my problem now as I am hungry all the time - I could eat all day - and the pounds are starting to show.

Occassionally I get a VERY strong urge for a cigarette but so far have been able to resist
I think, for me, the honeymoon period is over and from now on its going to be hard graft but I DO NOT want to smoke again. Congratulations Nathan and Bill and everyone else who is trying and succeeding. If you have tried and failed - DONT GIVE UP - I've been trying for 20 years and you've just got to keep at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM

Hazel, I know what you mean about the food...I find that I have the munchies constantly now...though I think it is more to keep my fingers occupied than anything else...and I have been finding the munchies harder to endure...and it is showing.... I also have been having the occasional oh one fag will not hurt anything thought....and I know from previous experiences that if iI have that one fag eventually I will have another...and then I will tell myself I will only smoke when i am a little drunk...then I will only smoke when I am walking and so on until I am out the door with a smoke every half hour....I do not want to start again...

On a side note...I have noticed anxiety attacks a little more often of late...is there any correlation?


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 08:09 PM

Nathan - I'm sure there is a connection and it is likely to be in the way you regarded having a cigarette as a panacea - cure-all - reward. That has now been removed and you have no peg to hang your anxieties on.

I got quite weepy for a while - as if I had lost a friend ( awful thought but true) You just have to keep telling yourself you don't need cigarettes in order to live a normal life


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 10:37 PM

I don't know if this is true for anyone else but in my case, I think the reason I gained weight was that I had never learned to pay attention to when to stop eating. Not only is a cigarette an appetite suppressor, partly because of not relishing the taste as much, but in the past, I had always come to the point where I wanted a smoke- and I relied on that to signal the end of the meal, I think.

Maybe what we all need is sensitivity training in order to learn to become aware of what our body and senses are telling us.

Hang in there. It does become easier- but even if it didn't get easier, keep in mind that we brought this misery upon ourselves by abusing the body we live in. It's not necessary to keep on heaping abuse on a body that cannot say NO- even though a body can- and often will- fight back even though it may take 20 years.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Chip2447
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:07 PM

CONGRATS TO ALL OF YOU!!! I seriously cut back/stopped back on December 8th, from a 1 1/2 packs a day to less than 10 in almost 5 months. Now, I can say that I've actually quit again. Keep up the good work all of you who have decided to take that step. To those of you who haven't yet, you should consider it. This thread is proof that support from peers helps a great deal.
Just knowing that others wre going through the same thing has helped me tremendously. THANX FOR THE SECOND HAND SUPPORT FOLKS, you've made this easier...

Chip2447


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM

Glad to be of help Chip2447 - come and talk to us anytime.

It's great that you've come so far - our thoughts are with you


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: jeffp
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 08:18 AM

Well, it's 4 weeks for me as of today. I've gone through the munchies, the grief (that was truly scary), the cheating..... I haven't cheated in 2 weeks and I don't think I'm ever going to smoke another cigarette. I refuse to go through all of this only to fail.

One of the things that has helped me was to realize what a hold cigarettes had taken over my life. I planned my day around smoking. Breaks from work, used it as a 5-minute timer, choosing restaurants based on smoking policy, stuff like that. Once I realized what had been going on, I really resented it and got mad. I'm not giving those things that kind of power over me again. Period.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM

Good for you Jeff - glad to here you are doing well - keep us posted


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Llanfair
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 11:40 AM

I avoided the "just one" routine by reminding myself that I am a nicotine addict, and must NEVER touch one again.
I have put a lot of weight on, but will eventually lose it again.
i love the smell of tobacco, but after 2+ years, I'm not going back to being a smoker.
Cheers, Bron.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: BlueJay
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:05 PM

Congrats, nutty. Not only on quitting smoking, but for this great thread. It's no small thing you've done; you even have ME considering giving up the habit. A few observations:

What Sourdough said earlier regarding the three "hooks" of smoking is enlightening. I recently heard statistics about the percentages of people able to quit using various methods. Pretty grim. I don't remember the exact figures, but only about 15% quit while using Zyban. Nicotine patches were even worse, something like 8%. Surprisingly, the "cold turkey" quitters fared best, something in the 20% range.

In light of Sourdough's remarks, it all makes sense. The pill and patchers are in many cases attacking only the physical addiction, while the cold turkeys are probably the most motivated, and would tend more to take care of all three "hooks". Interesting.

Maybe you all can help me make sense of something. I work in a state prison which is entirely non-smoking. When I go to work, I am stuck for twelve and a half hours of non-smoking. I am not allowed to leave even for lunch. I am very busy at work, which helps. But my twelve hours are spent at ease, and I usually don't even think of smoking, because the possibility is just not there. I do start to get a little antsy near quitting time.

Likewise, the prisoners, some 700 convicts, most of whom used to smoke. They are now in a rigidly controlled environment where smoking is not a legal option. A black market does exist, but I think most of them choose not to take the risk of losing earned time and priveleges, like family visits. Plus, cigarettes sell for $200.00 a carton. They gripe about the food, the beds, the guards, the temperature. But I never here them complaining about how inhumane it is to be locked up in a non-smoking environment. I think they've just given up, much as I do every time I go to work.

Sorry to ramble on. I just thought you all might find some of this stuff interesting. Thanks, BlueJay


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

When I smell a cigarette outdoors, it usually smells very good to me. Mind you, I'm glad that I'm not the one smoking it but it smells good... Indoors, it's a different story - but, if I can't get away, perfume and scented candles can also make me choke up. When I first stopped smoking, I had to stay awake from candle aisles entirely- the scent made me retch.

I think this thread is a wonderful one. And thanks for the periodic updates.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 02:50 PM

That's 'away', not 'awake'.

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:57 PM

"refresh"

Hey ! How's it going now, guys? Still managing to stick with it? How many days/weeks so far?

~ Jande


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Chip2447
Date: 11 May 01 - 11:19 PM

Sadly to say I kinda fell off the wagon. But, I'm giving it another go...


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 12 May 01 - 12:25 AM

Well, it's been a month and a half for me....

Chip,I hope you're not beating yourself up too much about falling....I am glad you're giving it another shot! Keep with it! Or else we'll have to send Nutty over to your place with a cricket bat!


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Chip2447
Date: 12 May 01 - 02:10 PM

Thanx Amergin. I just have to realize that it's not really the nicotine that I'm addicted to, it had been over five months with just an occassional smoke, but the fact that I like the smell and the taste of a ciggy....


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 01 - 07:07 PM

Chip, you haven't failed- and even that small break from smoking has undoubtedly helped you. This isn't a contest- this is something you are doing for yourself, and for those who love you.

Eb


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 12 May 01 - 08:28 PM

I know what you mean, Chip, I loved the smell and the taste of my hand rolled fags....


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: okthen
Date: 13 May 01 - 07:55 AM

Still not puffing, nor have I since January, tho' I still get urges for "just one" I'm told I always will but they get less and less frequent,is this what you who've not smoked for years rather than months have found?

Just got my first "reward" for not smoking, (medium priced digital camera)

hope jeffp and everyone else is doin' ok

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 May 01 - 10:19 AM

Having "just one" works for some. That's the way I managed to stop. I don't think the addiction is like alcohol when, I am told, "just one" can be fatal. I stopped 23 years ago and am no longer a nicotine addict. I abhor the sight and smell of tobacco and won't allow ANYONE to smoke in my house or car. I could have "just one" but I'd probably be sick and have to persevere and learn to inhale all over again. I do however feel sorry for my hero Bob Dylan who can't have a cigarette in any public place in California, tho I wholeheartedly support the ban.


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: nutty
Date: 13 May 01 - 05:19 PM

Hi everybody - I've been away at Holmfirth Folk Festival this weekend so haven't seen the posts till now.

I'm still holding out although had a strange experience this morning ................ I was in my camper overnight -- slept very well and woke to a wonderful sunny morning. Made Coffee and ate breakfast and thought " What do I do now?" No sitting around chatting and smoking ---- so I went for a walk --- strange experience though

Spent the weekend with Treaties who is also doing well. Anyway, thanks for asking Jande and Chip DON'T GIVE UP TRYING TO GIVE UP .
It will happen for you eventually

Bill and Nathan - I'm filled with admiration and so proud of you guys -- you give me the resolution to get through the hard times


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: jeffp
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:58 AM

Still not smoking either. One of the weirdest things about it is trying to fill that 5 minute period when you're waiting for the water to boil or the stove to heat or the kids to get out of the bathroom or whatever. I tell my wife "I'm going to sit down and not smoke a cigarette." Seems to work.

Hang in there fellow quitters!

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 01 - 12:27 PM

I know what you mean about that dead space between completing one thing and starting another. One of the hardest things for me was not having anything to 'reward' myself with.

On the other hand, just imagine what it must be like needing a smoke- and you're on a plane or a bus or in a restaurant or at work and it's howling outdoors- and you can't. I'm sure I'd be furious every day. Sure glad I no longer have to worry about it!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Chip2447
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:29 AM

Thanks all. I owe it to family, friends and myself to give them up... Currently giving it another of the win one for the chipper college tries...

chip2447


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Bugsy
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:21 AM

Well Mrs Bugsy is still off the weed! I'm very proud of her, she seems to be coping with it a lot better than she has in the past. Thank God for Zyban.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Amergin
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:54 PM

Well, I just realised it has been two months for me...though sometimes it seems a bit longer...and other times not nearly that long....How is everyone else?


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: jeffp
Date: 30 May 01 - 02:02 PM

8 weeks since I quit, and 6 weeks since I cheated. Been off the Zyban for a week and a half now. Still got this restless thing going on, though. My left leg is bouncing as I type this. Guess it's better than tapping pencils, but not much. Food tastes better, my sense of smell has improved amazingly. This spring I smelled the lilac in the neighborhood for the first time. Gotta start monitoring the BP more closely, in case I have to adjust meds.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: No Smoking Update
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 01 - 02:06 PM

A small aside here...Orillia City Council is considering a city-wide ban on cigarette smoking inside restaurants, bars, and other places of business. This would be a relief to me on a personal basis...but it would certainly be hard on some places, like Hill's Restaurant. The place is a Mecca for smokers, and the food is very good. I would, of course, prefer to eat there without the smoke, but I figure that most of the clients of Hill's would not agree with me on that.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this one...

- LH


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Mudcat time: 17 April 12:55 AM EDT

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