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BS: Opinion of Clinton???

MarkS 13 Jan 01 - 04:51 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 01 - 04:56 PM
Greg F. 13 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM
Sarah2 13 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM
Hollowfox 13 Jan 01 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 01 - 05:23 PM
Bill D 13 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM
Little Hawk 13 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM
katlaughing 13 Jan 01 - 06:43 PM
SeanM 13 Jan 01 - 08:27 PM
Troll 13 Jan 01 - 10:33 PM
rube1 13 Jan 01 - 10:34 PM
Sarah2 13 Jan 01 - 10:45 PM
Amos 13 Jan 01 - 10:46 PM
Susan from California 14 Jan 01 - 12:25 AM
Melani 14 Jan 01 - 12:26 AM
blt 14 Jan 01 - 01:08 AM
Melani 14 Jan 01 - 01:41 AM
CarolC 14 Jan 01 - 03:01 AM
Lonesome EJ 14 Jan 01 - 05:07 AM
SeanM 14 Jan 01 - 05:26 AM
bill\sables 14 Jan 01 - 06:36 AM
Gern 14 Jan 01 - 10:07 AM
Linda Kelly 14 Jan 01 - 10:22 AM
kendall 14 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM
Peg 14 Jan 01 - 11:59 PM
katlaughing 15 Jan 01 - 01:34 AM
kendall 15 Jan 01 - 09:21 AM
Peg 15 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM
Jock Morris 15 Jan 01 - 12:12 PM
Peg 15 Jan 01 - 12:19 PM
Murray MacLeod 15 Jan 01 - 12:36 PM
TonyK 15 Jan 01 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,guest,guest,guest(intruder) 15 Jan 01 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 01 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Scott 15 Jan 01 - 04:54 PM
kendall 15 Jan 01 - 07:16 PM
Peg 15 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM
kendall 15 Jan 01 - 09:20 PM
SandyBob 15 Jan 01 - 10:31 PM
katlaughing 16 Jan 01 - 12:48 AM
Jock Morris 16 Jan 01 - 03:52 AM
Kim C 16 Jan 01 - 11:39 AM
kendall 16 Jan 01 - 12:06 PM
Troll 16 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM
Troll 16 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM
mousethief 16 Jan 01 - 12:26 PM
kendall 16 Jan 01 - 12:56 PM
Fiolar 16 Jan 01 - 01:24 PM
mousethief 16 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM
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Subject: Opinion of Clinton???
From: MarkS
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:51 PM

A column by George Will in this mornings paper finished with the line, "Clinton may not have been the worst US President, but he certainly was the worst person to be president."
Comments anybody?
MarkS


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 04:56 PM

Greatest president of my lifetime. (I was born in '56).

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM

George Will...isn't he part of the "Liberal Media"....

Give it four years. There may be a better contender for the title.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Sarah2
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM

Gotcher gas bill lately? Or are we already going to blame that on a guy who hasn't even taken office yet?

Sarah


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:09 PM

On the other side of the political fence, Molly Ivins pointed out that Clinton was a very good incrementalist, getting many small accomplishments, going back and correcting badly written regulations, etc.
For the worst, how about Franklin Pierce? He left the White House during a blizzard to attend his mistress while she gave birth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:23 PM

Sarah2, the gas issue is a red herring. We need to reduce our dependence on non-renewable, pollution causing energy sources. If we do that, we won't be vulnerable to the gas producing countries upon whom we currently dependend.

We might also want to re-think our current petrolium export practices. Clinton did not create this problem. The petrolium industry is to blame for that one.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM

Clinton was a VERY able politician who did a lot, considering he had no majority in Congress...he was a silly jerk to mess around at work with that....ummmm...twit...., but he had a very good command of the issues, could think on his feet and cared...whether or not you 'like' his views and policies...I sure hope history makes the 'twit' incident a quaint sidelight to the era.

I'd love to have seen how where he'd be now if he could have kept his pants zipped...


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM

I very much doubt he was the worst president, he is just the one most hated by conservatives right now. That will change with time.

As a private person, he's had a pretty chequered career, with all the extramarital affairs, but then, so did Kennedy. Kennedy, however, was living in a time when the press didn't talk about such things as much as they do now.

As a sheer survivor, Clinton must rank as number 1 of all time among US presidents, all things considered. That alone makes him remarkable.

I'd give him the following marks (from 1 to 10) :

personal morality and honesty - 2 charisma - 8 governing ability - 7 foreign affairs - 6 economy - 8 overall rating - oh, about 6, I guess...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:43 PM

BillD, I agree with you totally. I think he is brilliant, intelligence-wise, a consumate diplomat and politician and will be known as such when history recounts his terms in office, esp, as you pointed out, as he had only a Republican majority to work with in Congress. If there is any blame for gas prices, etc. one should look to the last four years of waste in Congress, while they filled the halls with hot air trying to destroy him. If we'd been able to bottle all of that, we would have energy to spare!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 08:27 PM

It's kinda hard to get a perspective on something that's technically not over yet, but I DO think the man will be remembered as a 'good' president.

While in office, he didn't do anything to spectacularly stupid to the country (hummers with the humidor excepted), and actually managed to accomplish a few good things along the way. Once again, nothing truly spectacular, but definitely more than a 'caretaker' president.

Had the Republican majority NOT been on a witchhunt from the beginning, he might have achieved greatness. As noted above, Clinton was above all an accomplished politician, and as such he took pains to make sure he didn't stray too far to either end of the spectrum...

Oh well. Good, but not great. Not a caretaker, but not heavily activist.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Troll
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 10:33 PM

A brilliant politician. Possibly one of the all-time greats. But a president must be more than just a brilliant politician, he must be a statesman , a consensus builder and a leader.
Other presidents have accomplished impressive things without a Senate majority, but Clinton could not.
The "why" is complex but I thing it is because he did not have the good of the country in mind. He was more concerned with his power and his image than anything else.
That was and is his fatal flaw. It's a pity because I think he could have been great.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: rube1
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 10:34 PM

I think he is the antichrist. Actually, never mind. I don't anyone here really wants to know what I think of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Sarah2
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 10:45 PM

Really, CarolC, that's pretty good: "Clinton did not create this problem." That's right, and he's done damn-all about energy since he took office. We're about to pay for his non-policy, and not just in heating bills. The price of all kinds of things are going to go up because businesses are going to have to pay those heating bills, too, and the cost will be passed on.

Sorry, but I think the guy's a consumate politician, a zero statesman, and a moral bottom-feeder.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 10:46 PM

The ANTI Christ? Oh, gimme a fuckin' break, mate. You don't seriously think if there ever WERE such an animal he'd be dumb enough to be elected President, do you?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Susan from California
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 12:25 AM

He had so much potential. Consumate politcian. Consumated too many other things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Melani
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 12:26 AM

Carol C, if you were born in '56, I really think Kennedy has to be right up there with great presidents of your lifetime. When I think of the others, only Clinton and Kennedy seemed to have IQ's above the level of hamsters, even if their social behavior was --er--not quite what it should have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: blt
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 01:08 AM

IMOUBBO (in my own unvarnished, baby boomer opinion), the major differences between JFK and WJC are class and political era. Diddling one's interns, social secretaries, wife's best friends, the neighbors, maybe even visitors to Lincoln's Bedroom--this habit seems to be viewed as a sign of JFK's virility whereas WJC is portrayed as a sex addict. And isn't it interesting how the First Ladies are treated? Jackie became a saint, Hillary a senator (imagine, having to be embraced by Strom Thurmund, BLGGHGGG).

I just think the "religious right" thought they were going to turn the government into a bible study group (lessons which they obviously needed to spend more time on) and got so pissed off that they had to crucify somebody. To make matters worse, WJC even sounds like a good old boy. There was a column by somebody in the paper today, David Sarasohn, I think, who thinks Clinton really looks great, as opposed to Reagan and the Father of George W., who both looked haggard following their presidential years.

Somehow I don't picture WJC out building houses with Habitat for Humanity.

blt


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Melani
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 01:41 AM

Perhaps the secret of his vitality is Vitamin S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 03:01 AM

Everybody is saying that Bill Clinton is a great politician. I don't think that's what he is.

I think he's the world's most amazing tightrope walker. I admire tightrope walkers. Bill Clinton has my gratitude and respect for walking such a difficult tightrope on my behalf.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 05:07 AM

Most effective President since Ronald Reagan. Able to articulate his views clearly, and a master shaper of public opinion. The Republicans didn't hate him because he couldn't keep his pants zipped - they hated him because, time and again, he got it his way, often by stealing their own rhetoric and using it against them. Clinton was like a prizefighter that took incredible punishment (often because he dropped his guard) and simply refused to hit the canvas. We'll see what kind of jaw George Jr has.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 05:26 AM

Well, LEJ, so far from his speeches and campaign, I think the obvious answer is "slack".

Ducking and weaving,

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: bill\sables
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 06:36 AM

I'm not realy into U S politics but last time I was over there someone told me that:
George Washington couldn't tell a lie
George Bush couldn't tell the truth
and Bill Clinton couldn't tell the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Gern
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 10:07 AM

I hate to agree with George Will, but Clinton should be remembered as a liar and an opportunist who found his convictions in opinion polls. Ask Gore why he lost the election, and if he's honest, he'll say it was Clinton's shadow. Although he was an improvement on CIA chief/war criminal Bush, that's not saying much. He discarded his campaign pledges about Haiti and China trade, continued assinine policies regarding Iraq and Libya, and his search for a legacy is piling up bodies in the West Bank. Domestically, he championed good ideas like National Health Care with an ineptness that set these causes back a decade. Clinton stumbled thru his first two years, arousing the wrath of accumulated a-holes in Congress, and only after the budget crisis did he seem up for the battle. George W. will make Clinton seem like the good old days, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 10:22 AM

JFK was a great president and his extra marital wanderings are ignored or dismissed as are some of his other links to less than salubrious characters. It seems that's all the American public want to remember of Clinton. I think he was an extremely effective president especially in foriegn policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 04:00 PM

Anyone who knows his/her history will agree that the worst president in history was Warren G Harding, followed closely by Useless S Grant. Time tends to fog over the facts, but, Clintons blow job is fresh in our minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Peg
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 11:59 PM

I liked the man, and I liked the president. Charming, very smart, eloquent, empathetic, savvy. Notg perfect and i did not agree with everything he did but i think bya nd large he did a pretty great job as president.

The fact he had a sex drive was actually sorta comforting to me. Pity he got caught with his pants down; but I never though that was anyone;s business but his family's and those directly affecetd by it. The fact that "he lied to the American people" about his sex life is silly. The impeachment, which was over blow jobs and trying to deny what was no one's business (that's what it was about, let's face it), was just silly and wasted a whole lot of time and money that could have been better utilized in other ways.

He promised if elected to overturn the so-called "gag" rule under which federally-funded clinics were not allowed to discuss abortion as an option to pregnant women. he overturned itin the first week of his presidency. he has doen his best to uphold women's reproductive rights; in this country, in recent years, that is saying a lot.

I'd have blown him, too if I had the same opportunity Monica had. And would never have befriended a monster like Linda Tripp; and would not have had anything left on a dress to even have to worry about whether to take it to the cleaners right away, ro six months later, or never.

Two little liberal ole ladies were discussing it on the bus and when they said oh that girl's poor parents, I interjected and said "I dunno, if my daughter had sesx with the president I'd be proud; I mean, that was pretty cool," they said, aw, you're so cute...

but I digress I suppose.

No human being is perfect. Those who aspire to political power are perhaps flawed, and gifted, in ways unique to that sort of ambition. We must bear that in mind when judging such individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 01:34 AM

LOL, Peg you are just *right on*!! Love your take on it/him and that last statement is profound, womon!

Thanks!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 09:21 AM

Peg, you said it better than I ever could!


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Peg
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 11:59 AM

Peg for President!

Sex in the Whitehouse!


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Jock Morris
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:12 PM

President Peg, can I interest you in some foreign affairs?:-)

Scott


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Peg
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:19 PM

I have always said, the United States needs to build a stronger alliance with Scotland!

If I promise we won't drill for oil in the Hebrides, will you promise to import/relocate some of your finest distillery operations?

The White House need a good excuse to serve porridge, smoked salmon and Macallan at breakfast...


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:36 PM

Complete with bagpipes, naturally.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: TonyK
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:46 PM

I have always liked Clinton a real lot and the polls state that many other people do also. He sure had a lot of people that really hated him as well.

He epitomizes the hero/scapegoat role of the dysfunctional family. By the way, dysfunctional to me means having problems and working very hard to pretend there are none. If you want to know what's wrong in a dysfunctional family, just ask the scapegoat; he's wearing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: GUEST,guest,guest,guest(intruder)
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 04:02 PM

more effective than the real Mr Bush, but far less principled.

as to G W Bush... May the Mother hide us from that one. the man's a bottom feeder if there ever was one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 04:33 PM

(Thread creep alert!)

TonyK, can you recommend any good books about the hero/scapegoat dynamic in the dysfunctional family? Thanks.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: GUEST,Scott
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 04:54 PM

Peg,
Monica didn't just have sex with the President, she had sex with a married man. I think it says a lot about the state of our nation when that kind of behavior gets applauded.

-Scott


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 07:16 PM

Who is applauding that behavior?


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Peg
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM

I don't recall saying I applauded it.

But, you are right, Mr. Clinton is a married man.

Most married men in the United States, if not in most of the world, have had extramarital dalliances. Do the math.

I'm not saying that is good behavior, or bad behavior. It simply is. Its damage or significance depends largely upon the situation, I imagine.

I am generally in favor of open marriages, BTW; or at least a marriage in which the participants may be honest with each other about their desire or need to engage in extramarital sex. Most people have affairs because they are bored or dissatisfied sexually. If people could be honest with each other about these urges, and find some acceptable way to address the problem, perhaps the occasions would not arise where they were forced to lie about their behavior.

All that said, it is NO ONE's business but Hillary's who her husband is bonking besides her.

Oh, and as far as the state of our nation is concerned: I think if we started seeing our commanders-in-chief as human beings with human desires and foibles, we'd have a better clue what sort of men and women we should vote for.

peg


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 09:20 PM

We non-philanderes are in the minority. No question there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: SandyBob
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 10:31 PM

Right on, Peg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:48 AM

You go, womon!!! Couldn't have said it better m'self. Can I be your PR person for your campaign?**BG**

Sex, honest!

Honest sex!

When you vote Peg for President!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Jock Morris
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 03:52 AM

Macallan for breakfast? Well I suppose as long as it's after 10am:-)

I suppose we could ship one or two distilleries over, but you have to promise to take back MacDonalds as part of the deal.

Scott


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 11:39 AM

My opinion on the Monica thing is, since they did it in his OFFICE that WE PAY FOR while he was supposed to be WORKING (which WE ALSO PAY FOR), it sure as hell WAS our BUSINESS. If I had got caught diddling around in my office during working hours I'd be in a world of hurt and I reckon most of you would be too.

And he lied on the stand. What he lied ABOUT is silly to a lot of people but the fact remains that he PERJURED himself, which the last time I checked, was a CRIME. Little white lie or no, perjury is AGAINST THE LAW and little people go to JAIL for such.

NOW... that being said... he was a skillful statesman, which is an important quality in a world leader. He has a very down to earth quality about him, which is why I voted for him the first time. I would be perfectly happy to have him over to my house for a bowl of chili and a beer, but I would not catch myself alone with him in a room anywhere.

I was on his side on the Paula Jones thing. If I had tried to sue every man that ever made an unwanted pass at me I'd be rich enough for us ALL to retire. I mean, give me a break. He behaved badly but nothing actually happened so let's go on about our business. What did she expect going up to a man's hotel room, anyhow?

What a lot of us seem to forget is that the President is not all-powerful; but for some reason, anytime something happens here that we don't like, it's the President's fault, and we want the President to fix it, when we should be taking the Senate and the Congress to task instead.

What I really resent is Monica's celebrity status. Some of us actually WORK for a living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:06 PM

As I understand it, he answered the prosecutors question accprding to the guidelines which THEY used. In their interpretation of sex, a blow job is not sex! So, it is hair splitting, sure, but what do you expect from lawyers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Troll
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM

Of course Clinton looks better than Reagan or Bush did after their stints as President.
He's a hell of a lot younger now than either one of them was when they left ofice.
As far as JFK being a good president, if he hadn't gotten killed, he would have gone down as a mediocre President. He actually accomplished very little. Most of the civil rights work was done by Johnson. The major thing that I see Kennedy having done was to escalate the US presence in Viet Nam.
BTW, when are the troops going to be brought home from Bosnia, etc? I mean, the elections over and Clinton doesn't need them there to bolster his image as caring and compassionate any more.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Troll
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:15 PM

Of course Clinton looks better than Reagan or Bush did after their stints as President.
He's a hell of a lot younger now than either one of them was when they left ofice.
As far as JFK being a good president, if he hadn't gotten killed, he would have gone down as a mediocre President. He actually accomplished very little. Most of the civil rights work was done by Johnson. The major thing that I see Kennedy having done was to escalate the US presence in Viet Nam.
BTW, when are the troops going to be brought home from Bosnia, etc? I mean, the elections over and Clinton doesn't need them there to bolster his image as caring and compassionate any more.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:26 PM

Kennedy did launch the moon race, and the Peace Corps, both very good things for our country. But you're right, Troll, if he hadn't been killed, he wouldn't be such a hero today. He was a mediocre president who had the foresight to be assasinated.

We still have troops in Bosnia? I thought they were in Serbia/Kosovo.

By the way it really pisses me off when they say on the radio "the border between Kosovo and Serbia proper" as if Kosovo isn't a proper part of Serbia. Grrrr.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 12:56 PM

At least Clinton didnt send Marines into a combat zone with no bullets!


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: Fiolar
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:24 PM

As a non American, I would just like to make two points. (1). If Kennedy had not stood up to Kruschev in the little matter of the Cuban missiles, I wonder if there would be an America today? (2). Clinton did more for the peace process in Northern Ireland than any other politician.


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Subject: RE: BS: Opinion of Clinton???
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

Okay, the moon race, the Peace Corps, and the Cuban Missile Crisis. But other than THAT, what did Kennedy do for us?


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