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Grammar in Songs

GUEST,John hill 31 Dec 00 - 07:49 AM
Jeri 31 Dec 00 - 08:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 00 - 08:33 AM
kendall 31 Dec 00 - 08:43 AM
dulcimer 31 Dec 00 - 08:43 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 31 Dec 00 - 08:52 AM
Jon Freeman 31 Dec 00 - 08:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 00 - 08:55 AM
Midchuck 31 Dec 00 - 09:30 AM
SINSULL 31 Dec 00 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 31 Dec 00 - 04:23 PM
SINSULL 31 Dec 00 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 00 - 04:33 PM
kendall 31 Dec 00 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,GUEST, Judi 31 Dec 00 - 06:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM
Tam Lin 31 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM
Gary T 31 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 01 - 06:03 AM
Murray MacLeod 01 Jan 01 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Colwyn Dane 01 Jan 01 - 04:55 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jan 01 - 06:28 PM
Pelrad 01 Jan 01 - 11:18 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Jan 01 - 11:35 PM
KingBrilliant 02 Jan 01 - 10:18 AM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Jan 01 - 10:25 AM
sophocleese 02 Jan 01 - 10:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jan 01 - 10:56 AM
Peter T. 02 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM
MMario 02 Jan 01 - 11:22 AM
LR Mole 02 Jan 01 - 12:11 PM
GeorgeH 02 Jan 01 - 12:28 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,John Hill 02 Jan 01 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,John Hill 02 Jan 01 - 01:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jan 01 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Songster Bob 02 Jan 01 - 01:37 PM
GeorgeH 02 Jan 01 - 02:08 PM
Grab 02 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM
Peter T. 02 Jan 01 - 02:45 PM
Bert 02 Jan 01 - 03:07 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Jan 01 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,--seed 02 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM
Mark Clark 02 Jan 01 - 06:12 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jan 01 - 07:20 PM
GUEST, nomadman 02 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM
Haruo 03 Jan 01 - 05:33 AM
Steve Parkes 03 Jan 01 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Les Brown 03 Jan 01 - 03:57 PM
Bernard 03 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM
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Subject: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,John hill
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 07:49 AM

Do any of you correct grammar in songs that you sing because you just can't live with what was written in the first place? I put my hand up and say I do....like Ewan McColl's "We was off to hunt the Shoals of Herring".. gasp!..
I haven't found a way of getting rid of Dylan's "That's a name I never knowed" yet.. much as I'd like to.. (Don't think twice)


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:28 AM

Well, some of the weird grammar is dialect, and some is in there to make things rhyme. Chances are, if the song is well known, the bad grammar version is the way everyone knows it and expects you to sing it. If you can slip a change in gracefully, it can work, but if it's too obvious, it won't.

Funny, with Shoals of Herring, I don't recall anyone singing "was" - it's "were" in my memory. I don't know if everyone I've heard has changed it, or whether I did the editing in my mind.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:33 AM

Good grief! And people sneer at trainspotters...


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:43 AM

I admit to changing the bad grammar. Just because a song is famous is no reason to validate an ignorant writers bad grammar.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: dulcimer
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:43 AM

I think it certainly depends on the impression you want to give. I listen to a lot of Carter Family songs and one certainly wouldn't change the lyrics without losing the favor of their work. Changing lyrics loses authenticity if that is what you want. But I guess if you want Dylan done by Yanni or 1001 Strings, go ahead and change the lyrics to be correct.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:52 AM

I would, if I thought it was a mistake. However, in the case of the "was", it would be a case of dialect.

You'd have to be careful of the making changes which are not needed.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:52 AM

I will change the lyrics in songs for any reason I see fit. This could be because of grammar, perhaps I don't like the way a line scans, maybe I prefer an alternative word or to express something differently, sometimes it is just a case of failing memory...

Jon


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:55 AM

I've been experiencing some hard travelling, I thought you knew, I've been experiencing some hard travelling, how do you do...

No, it just doesn't work.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:30 AM

I think...if it's a true, i. e. anon., folk song, there's no one to stop you from doing anything you want to.

If someone rearranges the lyrics of a song with a known author, without the author's permission, the author ought, IMO, to be considered entitled to rearrange the face of the rearranger. This premise applies both to rearrangements made for purposes of grammar, and purposes of political correctness.

If a song as written doesn't suit your preferences, I would suggest writing one that does.

Just trying to bring sweetness and light into the discussion....

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 02:18 PM

Nice try Peter!


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 04:23 PM

Hi,

The Honourable Artillery Company (HAC) - a Territorial Army unit
consisting mainly of old-boys from the English public school system - were on a route-march,in 1914/5 England,
and were heard to sing a song which is normally sung "Who were you with last night, under the pale moonlight...."
in the,then, more grammatically correct way: "With whom were you with last night under the pale moonlight...."

A bit of a mouthful and not what the lyricist wanted me thinks.

Cheers, Colwyn.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 04:33 PM

Seems to me that Whom were you with..etc...because, the sentence is not ended with a preposition (moonlight) But, WHO does scan better.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 04:33 PM

If someone rearranges the lyrics of a song with a known author, without the author's permission, the author ought, IMO, to be considered entitled to rearrange the face of the rearranger.

If anyone wants to sing a song I've written, and changes it to suit their tastes or memory or whatver, that's fine by me. It's an indication of a song entering into some kind of oral tradition, and that's what I'd always hope might happen to a song I'd written.

I don't think that just because you've written a song you've got any rights over it once it's growen up and moved away, any more than with a child.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 05:22 PM

That was Kendall raving, not me (SINSULL).
I will admit that I cringe at "For to maintain his two brothers and he" (Henry Martin). And I change "The Baggage Coach Ahead" to "Each one had a story to tell in his home..." from "in their home..." I have to mute the TV every time Star Trek begins with "to boldly go..." Split infinitives make me nervous. Pedant? Maybe but I just can't help it.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,GUEST, Judi
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 06:45 PM

As a singer married to a songwriter, I have to be careful... If bad grammar is in the song to make a point, I would usually leave it. If it appears to be just ignorance on the part of the lyricist, I try to (quietly) fix it.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM

The 'split' infinitive has taken such hold upon the consciences of journalists that, instead of warning the novice against splitting his infinitives, we must warn him against the curious superstition that the splitting or not splitting makes the difference between a good and a bad writer. That was what H Fowler had to say about split infinitives as far back as 1908.(And here is a link to the other stuff he had to say - well worth following up.

Every time I wrote a song and ask my wife Anne for her opinion she points out the grammatical and syntactic errors. Sometimes I change them eventually. Sometimes I don't. If they're just to get a rhyme I tend to adjust - but there are all kinds of other reasons why a different set of rules applies when you are writing a song.

Most of the examples given so far I'd say are cases where there's no valid grammatical reason at all to change.

There may be other valid reasons, such as when a singer prefers to use using language that they find more natural. (And that use of "they" instead of "he or she" I would defend as being perfectly ok in current English.)


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Tam Lin
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM

"With whom were you with last night under the pale moonlight...."

That is incorrect itself - those young men ought to be ashamed!

I'm an English teacher...i change grammar whenever i can without wrecking the meaning or the intent. I can't help it; professional hazard! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Gary T
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM

I have no qualms about rectifying poor grammar if doing so doesn't seem to get in the way of the song. I remember noticing one song (can't put my finger on it yet, but I will--a Rolling Stones number?) that uses the grammatically incorrect phrase "For you and I" in a line where "For you and me" would match the rhyme--gotta wonder what, if anything, the lyricist was thinking when doing that.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 06:03 AM

uses the grammatically incorrect phrase "For you and I" in a line where "For you and me" would match the rhyme--gotta wonder what, if anything, the lyricist was thinking when doing that."

Somebody had probably "corrected" it because they had asort of feeling that "you and me" wasn't correct grammar. Fowler goes on at length about those kind of genteel mistakes.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 09:58 AM

I have always loved the line in the 70's classic "Horse with no Name"
"There ain't no one for to give you no blame".
Are there any other song lines with triple negatives?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 04:55 PM

Tam Lin,

Thanks for your observation but put the blame on me as I must have heard it incorrectly; it's rather like during
that period I was writing about, 1914-5, when long trench systems became the accommodation quarters for the living
and the dead. One trench had its field telephone line to the rear HQ go hay bags and messages had to be passed by
word of mouth from man to man until it arrived at its destination. One message started out as,
"Send re-inforcements we are going to advance."
and was received at its destination as,
"Send 3/4d* we are going to a dance."

Back to the grammar; I put the original quote through the MS Word grammar checker (for what that is worth) and it
was accepted and the version I gave as having heard was accepted too.
I also put another variant "With whom was you with last night under the pale moonlight" and the checker gave it as being incorrect.

Well Tam Lin I have been a life-long student and always willing to digest new information so what should it be?

*Sum of money and said, "Three and fourpence".


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 06:28 PM

I have a feeling that "two brothers and he" may be correct in period even if not now, and I sing it with no stress.

But "too far from she" - oh dear.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Pelrad
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 11:18 PM

With whom WERE YOU last night under the pale moonlight. (no second with)

The most frustrating grammar inconsistency I encounter is the switch from first to third person in traditional songs. I don't know if it's a result of someone cobbling different versions together into a cohesive tale, or some traditional narration switch about which I am ignorant. What I do know is that it drives me bonkers, and until I know the reason behind it I am loathe to change the wording.

It happens often in the "broken token" songs. By example: "I boldly stepped up to her, asking what greived her." and "I" "I" "I" for the majority of the tale. It suddenly turns to the third person singular for the denouement: "He fell into her arms; he could stay no longer." Same guy, but he abandons his narrative role without warning.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 01 - 11:35 PM

Pelrad, since we are all in nit picking mode here, may I point out that you are not "loathe" to change the wording, you are "loth" to change the wording.

But I agree with you, it is bloody frustrating ! The night visiting songs are also offenders here, don't you think?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 10:18 AM

I sometimes ruin the grammar of a perfectly grammatical line just because I like it better the other way. Sometimes the rhythm and flow of the words seem more important than the grammar and sense (not always though). I like the quirkiness of the songs that change person part way through. I like songs that use strange ungrammatical constructs that remind me of my gran. But if the words didn't feel right to sing then I'd change them ruthlessly :)
I'd say that given the choice of changing the song or not being able to sing it then its best to change it. Especially with folk songs, which should be allowed to change and evolve. Not totally sure where I stand on contemporary songs - I suppose I'd change it and just have to accept any subsequent face-rearrangement as my just desserts.
As long as I'm allowed to sing ungrammatical-like, then I'm happy for others to sing with perfect grammatical correctness. (But then I probably wouldn't know the difference :)) Kris


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 10:25 AM

Apropos of gender change in singing, I've heard a singer (a male) who, in singing The Frozen Logger,sang, "her lover came to see her" and so forth. Evidently he was embarrassed to sing a feminine role in the first person. Or maybe he was worried at two narrators in the same song, forgetting that the waitress's tale is all quoted. Durn shame.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 10:37 AM

I always figured that a simple change from first to third person was an economical way of switching roles in a song. If the thrid person frames the first person usage then it gets you in and out of the song. In the sample quoted by Pelrad earlier maybe its just a desire to distance the singer from the more personal, private, elements of the song, a sort of ballad form of the the curtain coming down on the final bedroom scene.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 10:56 AM

Switching from first to third person in a song may sometimes be a result of two versions being put together. But it's a very effective trick, and you get it in lots of modern songs as well (Dylan for example). And in putting the two versions together the old singers knew a thing or two about how to tell a story.

I find I do it instinctively sometimes when I'm singing a song I've written, or one I've learnt. It's analogous to the way the camera point of view in a film will change - for example in a scene between two people.

Mess around with "correcting" that kind of thing too much, and you can change the whole balance of a song. For better or for worse. That's the folk process, and it never stops.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM

Triple negative. "I'll play the Wild Rover no never no more"?

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: MMario
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 11:22 AM

seperate phrases.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: LR Mole
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:11 PM

Doesn't "Live and Let Die" contain a line like like "In this (something something) world in which we live in"? Triple preposition.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:28 PM

If one's going to cite examples it's as well to check one's sources first, John hill . . . Going to the Mudcat archive, "Shoals of Herring" has:

As we hunted for

For to go and hunt

And I'd dream about

That we'd taken from

While you're searching for

As you're following the

We were sailing after

which is as I remember the song, and all seems grammatically correct and ship-shape. In fact MacColl was generally meticulous over such matters . . .

However this - and too much of the discussion above - misses the point ENTIRELY. There isn't a single "grammar"; a grammar can just as well define a language (or more usually a dialect) as it is actually spoken, as define how a language "should" be spoken.

Of course there is a (not entirely precisely) defined grammer for contemporary UK English, and s slightly different and no better defined one for US English (in the UK we DON'T accept "leverage" as a verb!!). If you're a teacher, or are at pains to appear "educated", then this matters . . otherwise it's a question of personal taste . .

Equally "of course" - if you're not happy with the words of a song you're free to change them . . .

The Radio Ballads (for which "Shoals of Herring" was written) probably illustrate this . . . without checking I'd say the series includes a lot of grammatical examples, in its field recordings, which don't match the BBC's accepted grammar of that time (which, of course, is different from the BBC's accepted grammar of today).

G.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM

Grammer got runned over by a reindeer!!!


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:59 PM

I ain't not never bothered about grammar me, not no how.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 01:02 PM

Ewan McColl recorded the song more than once. I have a later one (on which he omits the conclusion) and he sings it as I said at the beginning. Maybe it was just a mistake.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 01:36 PM

There's a big difference between strolling along and marching along. And that goes for the way we use language as well.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 01:37 PM

Well, another fine mess you've gotten us into, Stanley! To me, the grammar may or may not jar, and it's usually the grammar that can't be changed without ruin to the song that jars the most.

Sigh.

As for changes of person in ballads, it happens all the time. It's like reading a play without the stage directions. Sometimes the narrator takes over, sometimes the actor(s). Usually, it's fairly easy to keep track of who's speaking, though not always. I suspect that some variants are created by people who couldn't follow the action, or, worse yet, got the action wrong, and tugged at the strands here and there to fit what they thought ought to be the story. Voila! New version!

And where in "Don't Think Twice" does the phrase "That's a name I never knowed" appear? Not that the lyric is grammatical in toto, but I don't remember that particular line. A little help, please?

Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 02:08 PM

Yes, I KNOW he recorded it more than once. Indeed, I've at least two other recordings of it by him, and heard him sing it live more than once. None of which is/was grammatically incorrect.

Given that - in my experience - MacColl was highly meticulous about such things - it seems to me unlikely but not impossible that he'd have released such a recording; I'd be interrested to know which one it was.

However everyone makes mistakes (and MacColl even admitted, occasionally, that he wasn't infallible) - however my point remains that HIS "standard" version of the song IS correct!

And of course he was always rather proud of the extent to which S of H had entered the Folk Tradition, and the number of variants of it which had emerged (in various languages) - though I suspect a degree of exageration in some of his claims there, too!

G.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Grab
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM

Re Dylan, it's almost there...

It ain't no use turning on your light girl,
That light I never knowed.
And it ain't no use turning on your light girl,
I'm on the dark side of the road

Get that one to rhyme and be grammatical! :-)

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 02:45 PM

It isn't any use your turning on your light, girl,
That light I've never known
It isn't any use your turning on your light, girl,
I'm on my strawberry roan.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 03:07 PM

The words of a song stem from the cultural traditions of the singer or of the place and time that the songwriter want's to take you.

Your feelings about specific examples are related to your own cultural background and experience.

When, in England in the Fifties, I first heard 'Sing it Pretty Sue' the bad grammar sounded outrageous. Now, having mellowed for many years in a culture that contains much American Country Music I can sing it without the slightest cringe.

As for double negatives "Shucks; tain't nuthin'".

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 05:29 PM

It isn't any use your turning on your light, girl,
That light I never knew
It isn't any use your turning on your light, girl,
I'm on the wrong side of the slough.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 05:59 PM

There ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe,
The light you never showed.
There ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe,
I'm on the dark side of the road...

That's the way I learned it--ain't it the way he done writ it?

My favorite line exemplifying apalling grammar, but unchangeable none-the-less:

Eng(uh)land swings like a pendulum do,
Bobbies on bicycles two by two...

but the almost ubiquitous "for you and I" frosts my 'nads almost as much as "I could care less."

--seed


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Mark Clark
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 06:12 PM

I saw this thread the other day but didn't have the right thoughts together to make a sensible comment. Finally, this morning, it hit me. The whole attraction of folk music is in its lack of formality. It is informal in grammer, informal in meter and rhyme, and informal in musical theory and harmony. It's precisely that informality that makes it approachable by the likes of us folkies <g> and allows us to bend the music as fits our need or mood. It's that beauty in informality that attracted many of us in the first place.

I certainly have no objection to people changing the words to songs when they sing them---that's everyone's piroghitive---but to change the words (or the chords) just so they will satisfy a formal structure of academic rules seems to me to miss the whole point.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:20 PM

Here's a really odd one. People very seldom use the word "whom", even when they ought to...as in "To whom should I address this letter?" or "You gave it to whom?"

They almost always use "who" instead, which is wrong if it's not the subject of the sentence.

Dylan, however, uses the word "whom" in the song "I Pity The Poor Immigrant", where he should use "who". Really weird. Go figure. That's Bob for you.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST, nomadman
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM

Strike the bell, second mate, let us go below
Look well to windward, you can see it's going to blow
Look at the glass, you can see that it has fallen
We wish that you would hurry up and strike, strike the bell

Nope, doesn't work.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 05:33 AM

In English I prefer not intentionally to correct grammar unless to my ear/mind it interferes with the likely apprehension of the sense. In Esperanto I'm a bit more likely to correct "by the book" (on the theory that learners else may be mistaught).

kendall wrote early in this thread:
"... no reason to validate an ignorant writers bad grammar."

How about to validate a lapse in apostrophizing? (Punctuation, in the 21st century, is at least as critical as grammar.)

Liland


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 08:04 AM

Before I say anything else, I'd better come clean: in my native speech, it's common to say "her" for "she", and I still do it when I'm off duty as an Upholder of English Grammar. But(!) "for you and I" really gets up my nose -- in a modern non-dialect song, there's no excuse except ignorance. The clouds might roll by for you, but they most certainly don't for I!

Having said that, there are occasions where dialect or rusticity or whatever it was that applied when the song was created (I'm back to "proper" Folk songs now) that make it OK. And I'm perfectly happy to sing "they're playing for you and I" in Colum Sand's "Buskers" since I met the man and he explained that getting the right effect is more important than getting the right grammar.

Conclusion: it's not OK, but it's OK.

Double negatives are a bit different. It's the norm in French, for instance, to say "je ne sais rien" -- "I don't know nothing". And if it was good enough for Shakespeare (I forget what the example was!) it's certainly good enough for me!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: GUEST,Les Brown
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 03:57 PM

I did'nt know that my grandma had been in any folk songs!


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Subject: RE: Grammar in Songs
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule - Sir Winston Churchill's famous line which he used to illustrate the point...

'That is something up with which I will not put!'

...which was grammatically correct but very clumsy!

Poetic licence - have you renewed yours recently?!!


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Mudcat time: 21 October 3:38 AM EDT

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