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BS: More Politics

Jim the Bart 26 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM
mousethief 26 Oct 00 - 02:36 PM
kendall 26 Oct 00 - 03:13 PM
Whistle Stop 26 Oct 00 - 03:39 PM
Hollowfox 26 Oct 00 - 04:01 PM
Jim the Bart 27 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM
Frankham 27 Oct 00 - 10:05 AM
Troll 27 Oct 00 - 10:17 AM
Jim the Bart 27 Oct 00 - 10:35 AM
Rick Fielding 27 Oct 00 - 12:51 PM
Frankham 27 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM
mousethief 27 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM
katlaughing 27 Oct 00 - 02:34 PM
JamesJim 27 Oct 00 - 02:40 PM
mousethief 27 Oct 00 - 02:43 PM
Jim Dixon 27 Oct 00 - 04:06 PM
kendall 27 Oct 00 - 05:09 PM
Skeptic 27 Oct 00 - 05:14 PM
Frankham 27 Oct 00 - 07:34 PM
Troll 27 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM
JamesJim 28 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM
DougR 28 Oct 00 - 02:00 AM
kendall 28 Oct 00 - 07:11 AM
Frankham 28 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM
kendall 29 Oct 00 - 08:25 AM
JamesJim 29 Oct 00 - 03:38 PM
Troll 29 Oct 00 - 08:59 PM
DougR 30 Oct 00 - 04:49 PM
kendall 30 Oct 00 - 05:03 PM
Troll 30 Oct 00 - 10:42 PM
Ebbie 31 Oct 00 - 02:50 PM
Whistle Stop 31 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM
DougR 31 Oct 00 - 04:10 PM
kendall 31 Oct 00 - 04:15 PM
DougR 31 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM
Ebbie 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 PM
kendall 31 Oct 00 - 08:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Oct 00 - 08:30 PM
thosp 31 Oct 00 - 09:12 PM
DougR 31 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM
Troll 01 Nov 00 - 07:46 AM
kendall 01 Nov 00 - 08:00 AM
Troll 01 Nov 00 - 08:12 AM
Whistle Stop 01 Nov 00 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Luther 01 Nov 00 - 09:04 AM
Troll 01 Nov 00 - 10:28 AM
Midchuck 01 Nov 00 - 10:39 AM
kendall 01 Nov 00 - 11:35 AM
Troll 01 Nov 00 - 12:10 PM
DougR 01 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM
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Subject: More Politics
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM

Twice, I have written absolute raving posts about big business vs. big government and both have simply disappeared without a trace. Maybe I spent too much time as "inactive" and got bumped off; maybe it was grace – there were things in both posts that I would have regretted saying. I'm starting this thread with a long rant; read it, if you'd like. Comment as you will. If neither, have a great day.


What has gotten my dander up is the crowing that is being done by the republican supporters of "free market capitalism" as the solution to most, if not all, of the problems in the US. The contention (if I have it right) is that freeing market forces from the restrictions placed on it by government will solve problems like bad schools, expensive medical care, and poverty, particularly among the elderly. Along with this love for private sector solutions is an attitude that government by its very nature does not, and indeed, cannot function as well as private business and should be severely limited in scope.

To quote JFK, "Let me say this about that".

The "Private Sector" argument always comes back to the contention that it's the competitive nature of the free market that keeps the system honest, efficient and effective. The unstated assumption that goes with this is that business success automatically works for the general welfare. I find two problems with this.

First, it assumes the existence of a free market. In reality, the playing field has always tilted toward those who enter a market with more wealth and resources. Those who start out well capitalized always start out ahead and have generally acted to maintain their advantage, at times through illegal means. Second, it ignores the reality that capitalism rewards the capitalists first; benefits to society are peripheral and often only grudgingly allowed. Capitalism is an exclusionary system. History has shown that in many cases it has yielded its benefits only after strikes, violence and near revolution by those left out. When push comes to shove it is the bottom line of the capitalist that is served, not the common good.

The other argument for private sector solutions over public sector ones points to the inefficiency of government solutions. It is generally maintained that there is greater accountability in the private sector. Fingers are pointed at government workers, who either don't know or don't care, as if people who work for the government automatically become lazy and stupid, while the promise of wealth in the private sector automatically inspires people to achieve great things. The fact of the matter is that when put in a position where their goals are clear, resources are provided and performance rewarded people do a good job, regardless of their employer.

Why do private sector programs appear to be better than public sector ones? They are more focused. They have clear mandates and fewer STAKEHOLDERS (good corporate buzzword). The individuals who are responsible for determining their direction, goals and methods are only responsible to a few stockholders (as opposed to the entire electorate). Even with bi-partisan support, government programs OF NECESSITY try to serve too many purposes simultaneously. Most of all, they are subject to POLITICS. This, in my opinion is how government programs easily lose focus and effectiveness.

Does this mean we should abandon government altogether? Not at all. There are some things that we as a society require that are better provided by cooperation than competition and that cannot be subjected to bottom line thinking. There are necessities of life that should not be determined by their profitability. Postal service, education, comprehensive health care, food and energy are among these. Our cross-country railroads and utilities were only made possible through the co-operative efforts of public and private sectors. Attempts to artificially create competition – first in the phone companies and now in the utilities – have been a huge failure; prices have not been reduced, service has declined, and the range of options offered has narrowed, not broadened. To insist that the free market is the solution to our problems is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

Now, for those of you who are going to scream "communism", I have one more thing to say. I am not a communist, I am a socialist and a federalist. I don't believe that people are inherently greedy and corrupt. Underneath it all everyone wants recognition for what they do and for their needs to be met. And that's about it. Free market, "sink or swim" Capitalism promotes fear and greed (remember: accumulating surplus wealth is an advantage in a Capitalist system). No one needs to be a billionaire. No one deserves to be one. No one person's contribution to society is that great that his posterity should be set up for generations. Not Bill Gates. Not Michael Jordan. No child is born lazy or stupid. Somehow between the time they are born with all that energy and curiosity and the time they get their first government job this system bleeds all the initiative out of them. We have done this to ourselves.

Marx didn't want to set up a communist state to battle capitalism (that was Lenin's idea). He said that at some point, when capitalism reached an advanced state, it would evolve into communism. He was describing what he saw as a natural progression. What happened recently in the USSR and Eastern Europe wasn't the victory of Capitalism and Democracy – it was the failure of totalitarian greed and corruption. There is a real "Third Way". (it may not be Tony Blair's). It's time for us to quit calling each other names and arguing over the scraps that the Bossman so graciously throws our way and figure out something better.

Sorry for being s


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:36 PM

Good points, Bart!

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 03:13 PM

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Sounds like a very fair way to live, right? There is only one fly in the ointment..no allowance for greed. Greed, the grease in the wheels of capitalism. I only saw one error Bart..Wasn't it Nixon who said "Let me say this about that"??


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 03:39 PM

Bart, from my various postings in Art Theime's "big government" thread, you know where I stand on this. I'm with you all the way. A truly "free" (completely unrestrained) market is just the law of the jungle applied to economics. Now, the law of the jungle does some good -- it is the driving force behind evolution -- but an awful lot of harm is done to individuals in the process. Since we don't want that kind of harm to be done (mass poverty, starvation, etc.), we have to impose some limits and controls on the free market. That's where government comes in.

Like the ancient Greeks, I believe that in our lives and institutions we should always strive for balance. Good governance involves balancing the public and private sectors against each other, finding the optimal level of participation by each that will serve the interests of the society as a whole. I'm not smart enough to always identify the perfect balance point between different forces in our society, but I'm pretty confident that we'll never find it by glorifying private industry and trashing government. We need both.

Yes, Kendall, I believe that was Nixon. Usually it was followed by some comment about "making this perfectly clear..."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 04:01 PM

Amen, Bartholomew. Three years ago, I was in a training session to learn how to use Intrest Based Bargaining to negotiate my union's contract. It's a good system, and I recommend it. The idea is that if you can get the two sides to see a contract proposal as a solution to a mutual problem, then everybody's more likely to get more of what's needed in the contract. But... one of the exercises was to divide up the trainees into two groups representing competing home heating fuel companies. We were to come up with monthly fuel prices within a certain price range for the best benefit of all. It took forever, because my team kept taking the season into account, undercutting the other company, etc. It turned out that the "lesson" we were to learn was that if both companies charged the maximum rate, we (the companies) would get the maximum benefit. The fictitious customers weren't supposed to be part of the equation. Chilling.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM

Thanks for the contributions. Some things you just have to get off your chest.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Frankham
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:05 AM

Open letter to Ralph Nader. > >Dear Mr. Nader: > >By now you've probably heard every damned argument in the country about why >you should get out of the presidential race or stay in the presidential >race, but forgive me if, for a moment, I bend your ear one more time. > >I'm not a member of, or advocate for, any political party or anyone's >campaign. And I agree with you completely that Al Gore's policies on >economic issues are nothing a progressive can jump up and cheer about -- >although he's not quite as rotten as his opponent on questions like the >minimum wage. But there are two things I'd like you to consider. > >The first is the fact that George W. Bush is the stalking horse for the most >reactionary social and economic forces in this country: the radical >religious right, the rabid anti-choice movement, the NRA, and those who >would further dismantle the structures of environmental and worker-safety >legislation that have been painfully built in the past three decades. These >forces have kept quiet, understanding that the majority of the American >public doesn't support most of their programs, but they've also mobilized >their people for bloc voting. Even if Bush's inclinations weren't already in >their direction (this is, after all, the man who proclaimed "Jesus Day in >Texas"), he would, if elected, take office owing a substantial debt to these >people. Do you really want to help put the reins of government into those >hands? > >The second is a simple, tactical question: Do you want to carry the >oppobrium for making the election of George W. Bush possible? And do you >want to tar the progressive forces in the country with that same oppobrium? >For as someone who grew up on the left, and who has watched the ups and >downs of progressive movements in this country since I was a child in the >1950s, I can say with certainty that the deepest problem with the American >left is its inability to work constructively with like-minded liberals and >moderates toward the achievement of its goals. For reasons I've always >thought were specious, the left in this country has usually preferred being >alone and powerless but ideologically pure to actually getting anything >done. I still recall my New Left buddies in college refusing to help elect >progressive candidates -- the headline in one paper read "We Are Not >McGovernable" -- or support progressive labor leaders. This inability to >form >coalitions (or even work with each other) has kept the left marginalized >most of my life, except for the brief period of the civil rights and >anti-Vietnam war movements in the sixties -- and even those movements were >eventually torn apart by factionalism. > >If your candidacy leads directly to the election of George W. Bush as >president, I doubt seriously that the American people would rush to the left >when his policies turned sour, or when he began paying back his debts to the >reactionaries who helped propel him into office. Instead, I think there >would be a massive reaction *against* the left, in the person of yourself >and your supporters, as the people whose short-sightedness allowed this >knave to take power. After a career in which you have achieved great things, >is that really how you want to be remembered? And do you really want to >bring the rest of us down with you? > >Thanks for your time. >Paul J. Stamler >St. Louis, MO > >


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:17 AM

What always amazes me is that, right after the election, the losing candidate immediately pledges to help the man whom, two days before, he predicted would destroy civilization as we know it if he got into office.
Has anyone else noticed this phenomenum?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:35 AM

Frankham, well writ.

I saw Ralph N. on Good Morning America today and Charlie posed your question to him directly. His response "I am not concerned with that". He went on to explain that he was trying to build a movement, period. So there's your answer.

A little prognostication on what happens after the election:
If Gore wins: Bush goes back to Texas. The Republican party quits pretending and swings to the radical right. Nader becomes John the Baptist, Millenium Edition, shouting warnings and giving liberal baptisms in the poloitical wasteland. In America it's four more years like the last eight years

If Bush wins: Gore goes back to the campaign trail, debating anyone who'll have it (except Nader). Bill Clinton goes to work trying to figure out if he can legally run again in '04. Nader becomes the Ross Perot of the left, building a huge but ineffectual organization, all "sound and fury, signifying nothing". Tax breaks all around, a two year hangover (like Reagan had) and a gradual slip into recession.

If Nader wins: Global warming is solved due to the effect of hell having frozen over. Corporate America closes up shop and moves to Mexico where "the government knows how to play ball"; they issue a statement to the effect that they were planning to do it anyway and should now be referred to as "Corporate Central America". The Cubs win the pennant.

Pat Buchanan wi - I can't even write the words, much less entertain the thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 12:51 PM

I don't know if you folks have been hearing the Pat Buchannan radio ads. I mentioned them here about two months ago, but they've gone from really sad and irritating to mind boggling and funny (as long as he stays at one percent!). Now, Pat is intoning that "Christmas is gone"(!!) "English (read 'murrican) is being taken out of our schools", oh, and on and on. If ever Pat believed he wasn't appealing completely to the lunatic far-right, he's sure making an effort to grab them now. He's making Rush Limbaugh look like Norman Thomas!

By the way, Frank: Heather and I were hosting Sanfrancisco Mudcatter Pam Swan this week, and in the middle of a conversation she said "You know Rick, I'd love you to meet a buddy of mine...you'd really like him, he's a musician/scientist...name's Bernie Krauss! Geez, you Weavers is everywhere!

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Frankham
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM

Bartholomew,

Makes perfect sense to me! Prognostications noted and accepted here.

Rick, Bernie was a synthesist for Paul Beaver before he passed away. He was a recording producer and I guess is still doing it. Haven't seen him since '63. The Weavers are a big big family. I think they are large enough to include many of the folk groups and musicians who they have sired or mothered as they case may be. In a way, I think that we (Mudcatters and everyone else in the folk song movement) are all Weavers.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM

Am not. I'm a knitter.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 02:34 PM

Thanks for that, Frank! I like the sounds of all of us Mudcatters being Weavers, by extension or association!

Now, I received this from another Mudcatter, and I am not saying anything for or against the letter Frank posted, just adding another perspective of someone else to the mix on Nadar:

From the NY Times Op Ed page, 10-26-00:

Third Party, Mainstream Hopes

By BARBARA EHRENREICH

KEY WEST, Fla.:As Election Day approaches with the major

candidates in a dead heat, Democratic denunciations of Ralph Nader supporters grow louder and more bitter. We are accused of disloyalty and irresponsibility, of ignoring the differences between the candidates and of being willing to throw the election to George W. Bush so that we can indulge in a meaningless gesture. Or, on the assumption that Nader supporters are all of the upper middle class, we are mocked for having the "luxury" of contributing to a Republican victory for which the vulnerable poor will suffer.

But support for Mr. Nader is only one small sign of a much larger growing alienation from the electoral process and the two parties that benefit from it. Polls show Mr. Nader attracting 5 percent or less of the vote in half a dozen tightly contested states. Meanwhile, much of the electorate seems unable, even after three debates, to detect any gripping differences between the two major candidates.

An even starker sign of alienation is that a majority of eligible voters are unlikely to vote ó more than 50 percent stayed home in the 1996 presidential election. The working poor, who supposedly have the most at stake in this or any election, are especially well represented among those who now abstain from voting.

Not only do Nader supporters represent an extremely small proportion of the politically alienated, but among Naderites only about a quarter are normally Democratic voters, according to a recent Reuters/MSNBC poll; the rest are independents and Republicans. Among those of us who have voted Democratic for most of our lives, the mood is less of spiteful defiance than of sorrow. We didn't choose to abandon the Democratic Party in its hour of need; the party chose to abandon us.

Our parents or grandparents, who were, in many cases, yellow-dog, blue-collar Democrats, would barely recognize the party of Bill Clinton and Al Gore as their own. To summarize the downside of the Clinton-Gore record: They failed to lift the minimum wage even up to the poverty level, although executive pay soared to more than 400 times that of the average working person. They pursued a trade policy rejected by unions and a majority of Americans. They blew their chance to create a national health insurance program, offering instead a plan that favored the big insurance companies. Mr. Gore's vision of health reform is even more constricted, consisting of little beyond proposed extension of Medicare coverage to prescription drugs. The Clinton-Gore administration has presided over a stunning expansion of the prison system ó necessitated by an increasingly senseless, and thoroughly bipartisan, war on drugs.

For many Nader supporters, especially the feminists among us, the Democratic Party's biggest betrayal was the so-called "reform" of welfare. Instead of the generously financed welfare-to-work program that he initially proposed, Mr. Clinton signed an exceedingly punitive bill that essentially leaves the poorest single mothers and their children at the mercy of labor market, where entry-level wages remain at about $7 an hour. Mr. Gore boasts of his advocacy of welfare reform, but Deborah Leff, president of America's Second Harvest, a consortium of food banks, has said that food pantries all over the country are unable to meet the "torrent of need."

The increasingly ugly fallout from the changes in welfare undermines the argument that a vote for Ralph Nader is an upper-middle class indulgence: It is not clear that the poor would fare very well under another four years of Democratic rule.

Yes, like most Democrats who vote for Mr. Nader, I will be sorry if George Bush defeats Al Gore. I do see differences between the two candidates, not least in the kind of the Supreme Court appointments they are likely to make. But in the case of a Bush victory, don't expect me to be apologetic. It's not my fault if Mr. Gore has refused to stand up for the populist principles that might draw America's disenchanted majority back to the polls.

I see the Nader campaign as a chance to prod the Democratic Party to the left and, beyond that, to re-energize American democracy. Of all the candidates currently running, only Mr. Nader addresses the alienation of the American majority: the role of big money in elections and the need for new political parties to challenge the all-too-similar Democrats and Republicans.

A vote for Mr. Nader is neither a vote for Mr. Bush nor a vote nihilistically thrown away. For old-fashioned Democrats and adherents of a vigorous democracy generally, it's a statement of affirmation and hope.

Barbara Ehrenreich is author of the forthcoming "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in Boom-Time America."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: JamesJim
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 02:40 PM

While I don't agree with him, I admire and respect Ralph Nader, because he is "real" and he is steadfast in his beliefs. I also admire those who stand with him. These folks are "honest" liberals; something that Clinton and Gore simply do not understand.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 02:43 PM

There was an interesting editorial on the radio (NPR) this morning about voter participation.

The woman said basically, if you're just going to vote by flipping a coin or by who wore the nicer suit in the debates or some other stupid (my word) criterion, you do the nation a favor by not voting at all.

Further, she said, the fewer people vote, the more MY vote counts.

She told an anecdote of a woman she heard, days after an election, who couldn't remember who she had voted for; "maybe the old one." She asked if this kind of mindless (again, my word) voting is what blacks, women, etc. fought hard to win over the years this nation has existed.

She also opined that along with the right TO vote comes the right to NOT vote.

Maybe not earthshattering stuff, but an interesting slant, and not one I've heard recently if ever.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 04:06 PM

I have not contributed before to any of the recent political threads, but it's getting late and I am getting scared.

Say what you will about "A vote for Nader is a vote for ---" whatever, but…

If it turns out that Gore loses this election, and especially if he loses by a margin smaller than whatever percentage Nader gets, then I personally will be very angry with everyone who voted for Nader.

I'm saying this as someone who voted for Gene McCarthy in 1968 (my first ballot) and nearly voted for John Anderson in 1980. The result was 8 years of Richard Nixon (and Gerald Ford) in the first case and 8 years of Ronald Reagan in the second.

I don't see any reason to expect that the result will be better this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 05:09 PM

Right on Jim. Its nice to be an idealist, but, this is the real world we live in. I dont like Gore..BUT I dont have to sleep with him..he is the lesser of two evils. Nader may be an idealist, but he cant win. Even if he did, he would have NO support in congress. We would have at least 4 years of gridlock.
Every time we send a republican to congress we insure that they will keep those right wing wackos like Graham, Helms, Thurmond and Lott in positions of power. George preaches that the democrats have had 8 years and done nothing. He fails to mention that the republicans in congress have fought at every turn anything that would benefit the working class. You Nader supporters..I applaude your standing up for what you believe. Just remember, if Bush wins we will have the NRA in the white house and a bunch of Clarence Thomas' on the Supreme Court. I hope your idealism keeps you comfortable when that happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 05:14 PM

As mentioned, its all about greed. The idea of fair and open competition as a foundation of capitalism that all my conservative friends keep touting is an illusion. The competition exists because the government steeped in and stopped a few men from owning the world. The greed to own it all resulted in some amazing engineering and technological advances. And some equally dramatic abuses. The government stepped in and mandated competition.

There are big businesses that operate under the idea of enlightened self interest. A few. When pinned down, what most people I know mean by "free enterprise" are community based businesses that are involved and responsive to their communities. Most of them have under 200 employees. Big buisness is something to laugh at in Dilbert. Except Dilbert is all too close to reality.

Not to flame Microsoft, but it's a good example of capitalism and big business at its most typical. Building a company from nothing to dominate a whole field of technology. This was a period of "get government off the backs of business" and they used the freedom in the best spirit of capitalistic growth. I used to be in the Industry and their tactics seemed clearly not in the 'spirit of competition".

Microsoft paid well and expected 60+ hours a week from employees. Programmers were expected to work on their vacations and the company paid to have high speed data lines run into their homes. They leveraged their operating system to freeze out their competitors. The results? As a product goes, Windows and MS Apps were and are minimally adequate. Is that the best capitalism has to offer? Adequate? Can government do any better? Well, it was government that developed the foundation of the computer revolution. The needs of the military and the space program drove the basic development (okay, its simplified but why spoil an argument with a lot of boring facts.)

Back in the bad old days, when business was over regulated and "competition was stifled", there were things like Bell Labs, PARC and a lot of basic research being done by big business. A lot of that went away with deregulation. One reason might be that now that government isn't holding them back, it was so much easier to buy out the competition than develop a better product and win by merit.

Regards John


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Frankham
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 07:34 PM

Barbara Ehrenreich's view is prevalent but I think unrealistic. The reason that Clinton hasn't been able to put much into action is that he has had to contend with a Republican Congress. Can you imagine what would happen to Nader with a Republican Congress? The idea that there can be bi-partisan support in the Bush campaign is laughable and more so if Nader happened to make it.

I disagree that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush.Barbara may not be apologetic if Bush gets in, but this view will be one that contributes to the dismantling of the existing programs that are helpful.

We don't really know too much about what these politicians will really do when in office. The only information we have to go on is what they offer in their stump speeches. One thing is clear, things are better off under Clinton then they were under Reagan and Bush for most Americans. Gore is more apt to continue the policies of the Clinton administration than Bush is.

Gore is far from ideal as a candidate as far as I'm concerned but Nader, despite his idealism and accomplishments is inadvertently running a negative campaign in light of a possible Bush victory.

I agree with Kendall.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM

Skeptic, you're just mad 'cause they wouldn't give you a vice-presidency, a corner office, and a cute secretary.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: JamesJim
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM

Kendall, as Dubya says, "good people can disagree." You mention those on the "right" who are pains in the ass and I fully agree. I won't waste space here listing the same kind of idiots on the left....you know who I'm taling about. "Radical" anything scares the hell out of me.

The lesser of two evils? I don't get into that stuff. We could argue for years about past presidents. The fact is, we really don't know what we're going to get until we've got it. Nixon was a crook. Johnson was a dishonest pig. Clinton? Don't get me started. It seems to me that Al Gore would fit right in with these less than glorious leaders. However, I'll wait to see what he really does once he has power (if indeed he's lucky enought to win). Same for George Bush.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 02:00 AM

Aw Jim, I don't think you have to worry a lot. You folks are getting all riled up for nothing. Don't als the polls show that Gore is way ahead. Relax and have another Guinness!

I'd like to think I'm wrong, but I think Gore has it sewed up. I came to this conclusion after reading all the Liberal posts on all the political threads. I can't imagine folks who share my philosophy could possibly be in the majority.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 07:11 AM

Clinton got caught. That was his mistake. Other than that, I am far better off now than I was 8 years ago. Nuff said. A. Lincoln said "Never change horses in the middle of the stream."


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Frankham
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM

Kendall, the big joke is that Clinton didn't do anything that Jack Kennedy didn't do a whole lot more of. Ol' Lyndon too. Clinton is a Kennedy boy and he figured his hand could also go into the "cookie" jar. As a New Englander, you probably know a good deal about the Kennedy's and their rise in Canadian Club whiskey.

Now Bush, I hear did inhale. He has been S.A.V.E.D.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 08:25 AM

Oh, he inhaled alright, thats why he has that nervous habit of sniffing when under pressure.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: JamesJim
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 03:38 PM

DougR, I hope you're WRONG! I'll leave you to figure that one out.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 08:59 PM

So Kendall,what you are saying is that as long as you make money on the deal, everything else is excusable. I take this to mean that you find the acquisition of money to be of great importance.
Therefore your claim to support the ideals of the Democratic Party is just so much smoke and you really vote your pocketbook. You sell your vote to the candidate whom you feel will do YOU the most good.Well,thats a step up from the ward boss paying you off outside the voting booth.
If gaining wealth is such a great good, then the Bill Gates' of the world must be the best people.
If Clintons only crime was getting caught, then , in fairness the same must be said of Nixon. Of course, Nixon had the good taste to resign.
And while we are on Clinton, I fail to see how you can credit him with the robust economy of the past decade when he couldn't get any of his giveaway programs passed. In fact, his own party rejected Hil...er HIS health-care plan. If he couldn't get his own party to go along with one of the cornerstones of the Dem. platform, how on earth can he be credited with leading the economny to prosperity with a hostile Congress?
I'll leave you to think on these things.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:49 PM

Jim: I gave it a lot of thought, and I think I know what you refer to. :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:03 PM

I'm quite able to think up my own words without help, Troll. At no point did I say what you claim I said. Clinton is a scumbag..morally. Is he any worse than Kennedy? Jefferson? Cleveland? Eisenhower? Roosevelt? Harding? History will judge him.
Of course he has had trouble getting things done..those congressional republicans have fought him tooth and nail for 8 years.
You mentioned Bill Gates, he has had more to do with the robust economy than either the democrats or the republicans.
Yes, he also lied..so did Nixon. So did the "Actor" but he gets an airport named after him!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:42 PM

I was going to quote your posting of 28-Oct-00-07:11 but you can go back and check on it.I take your "far better off" line to mean financially and the Lincoln quote to mean that you look forward to 4 more years of the same policies tkat have left you "better off".
So even though you don't like Clinton, you will vote for his old running-mate so that the legacy can continue. Since you have previously stated that you did not care for Gore, it would be logical to assume from your statement of the 28th that you are voting your pocketbook; in other words, selling your vote to the highest bidder, the one that you feel will give you the best return.
This is something that both parties have used in the past. Never mind ideals, vote your pocketbook!
You go on to say that he hasn't been able to get things past the Republican Congress. I assume you mean things to help the poor and the working man. Check out NAFTA and GATT. They sure helped the working man.
I take it that you approve of Bill Gates from your statement about him. Maybe you should find out what kind of a man he is before you endorse him. To conclude, I had no intention of putting words in your mouth. I was merely giving my interpretation of your posting, stating what it meant to ME.
If your meaning was other than I have stated I feel sure you will enlighten us all.
By the way, it's the job of the opposition party to oppose. The Democrats have done it in the past and so have (and will) the Reoublicans.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 02:50 PM

Cartoon in the Boston Globe: Dubya leaves the voting booth. "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush", he says. "So I voted for Nader."

Good editorial by James Carroll in the same paper, pondering why W's lack of depth and/or knowledge is considered part of his charm, rather than held against him as Dan Quayle's was, decides that it's America's response to the unwonted complexity of modern life, that the US people want to go back to a simpler time. He ends with the opinion that ultimately this election is not about Dubya's immaturity but the immaturity of the American people.

Whoo.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM

I still think that a lot is based on superficialities -- who has the nicer smile, who wears a better-fitting suit, who seems more "comfortable in his own skin". I'm for Gore, so I'll put this disclaimer right up front; this is NOT an unbiased opinion. Having said that, though, I think that this race would be a Gore runaway if Gore looked as comfortable with himself as Bush looks with himself. After the debates, the people who thought Gore had won referred to his command of the issues, while the people who thought Bush had won continually referred to his confident and likeable manner, not the substance of his answers. Contrast this with the usual description of Dan Quayle's debate manner -- that he "looked like a deer caught in the headlights" -- and you have your answer.

Bush has a breezy manner, and pleasant smile (frequent smirks notwithstanding), and generally seems more like someone you would want to share a drink with than Gore does. I think that is a significant reason for the number of votes he appears poised to get. It certainly isn't his command of the issues, or the soundness of the proposals he has put forward, and he knows it. So instead of basing his campaign on the issues, he bases it on intangibles such as "leadership" or "the ability to bring people together" -- stuff you can't call him on, basically. A week from now, we'll all find out whether it worked.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:10 PM

One man's opinion, Ebbie, just one man's opinion, though it probably is one you share. DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:15 PM

I'll try once more Troll. Fact, I'm better off financially than I was 8 years ago. We all are, including Dick Cheney with his 3 billion dollar govt. contract which he failed to mention on the debate. However, if I thought that coke sniffing boozer really could restore dignity to the White House, I would vote for him, except for one thing, I know he would pack the supreme court with Clarence Thomas clones, and Roe v Wade is out the window.
In other words, I dont like Gore, I dont like Clinton and I dont like Dubbya even more.None of these birds is up to the dignity of the Oval Office. What do you expect from lawyers,& politicians? It will be interesting to see how you misinterpret what I just said.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM

Seems pretty clear to me, Kendall. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 PM

DougR, when you tout votes for Nader, are you saying that's who you are going to vote for? Just curious. :~)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 08:02 PM

thanks Doug. Troll seems to delight in misunderstanding me.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 08:30 PM

I'm still bewildered by people saying that Bush comes across as an attractive and likeable man. I mean, I can imagine how someone might prefer his politics to those of Gore. I can envisage that they might dislike Gore even more - but actually liking that sniggering nudge-nudge barroom bore... In the words of Victor Meldrew "I just don't believe it."

If Bush wins I'll still refuse to believe anything other than that millions of Americans held their nose and voted for him the way they did for Nixon, for purely political reasons. At least nobody ever said Nixon was likeable did they?

The other thing that puzzles me is how people who have clearly thought about these things talk about third party candudates in a way that suggests they don't understand how the electoral system works. (They do it in my country too - I'm not making snide comments about Americans here.)

Except for those living in the small number of States where there is a close contest between Gore and Bush, it makes absolutely no difference who you vote for. You had much better vote for the person you like best, whoever that is. So far as electing a president the only thing that matters is the number of electoral votes he gets - it makes no difference whatsoever if he gets fewer popular votes than his opponenet, and that has happened several times already.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: thosp
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:12 PM

if Bush wins -- i will not be mad at people who voted for Gore -- if Gore wins i will not be mad at people who voted for Bush,Buchannen,Nader et al ----- for the most part i beleive that everyone here sincerely wants a better world -- and votes their conscience as best they can ---- so JimDixon i didn't put my vote for sale on e-bay and i'm not giving it to you or asking you to give your's to me ---- vote your concience -- i'll respect that you are doing your best -as you see it -- and so am i!

peace (Y) thosp
i'm for Nader


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM

Well, McGrath, I guess you can be grateful that regardless of who wins, you will be little affected, as a citizen of Great Britain. I am not implying that whoever is elected will not affect whatever happens everywhere in world, but certainly the domestic policies of either Gore, or Bush, will not affect anyone other than citizens of the U. S.

It seems to me that most Mudcatters are much more concerned with domestic policies than they are international ones. The right to choose; the influence of big business on government; campaign finance reform; the environment; universal healthcare; social security; possible future appointments to the Supreme Court, etc. are the programs that the anti-Bush forces here on the Mudcat have most often articulated as the ones that would be the most adversely affected if Bush is elected.

None of these programs will affect anyone other than the citizens of the U. S., regardless of who wins.

So, I would have to assume that your criticisms of Bush, and your strong support for Gore, are based on your concerns about future international policies. Is that correct? Just curious.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 07:46 AM

DougR, perhaps they want to see Gore win because a continued movement toward a more Socialist agenda would act as vindication of their own systems of government
"See? We're right.The US is doing it too."
If thats NOT it,then it MUST be as you said. Why else get involved.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:00 AM

At least under socialism you dont have old people having to choose between meds and food. Canadians bitch about their "Free medical care" but just you try to take it away!


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:12 AM

True. But by the same token you don't have a man dieing of cancer because the "system" didn't take an x-ray when he first came in, waited until he had lost forty pounds in less than a year and THEN found the metastasized tumor on his pancreass.
You don't have a carpenter waiting nearly a year for corrective surgery on his knee and in the meantime having to go up the ladders every day in agony because the "system" decided he could keep working.
The incidence of breast cancer deaths is significantly higher in England,for example, than it is here or so my English friends have told me. I don't know what it is in Canada.
Yes, we have problems-mostly brought on by corporate greed and government mis-managment- but I'd rather bee here than anywhere else I can think of. And yes, I have lived under the English system.The cases I mentioned are real.Both men are/were friends of mine.The "system" killed Colin and put Bob through ten months of hell.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:38 AM

Doug, I'm a Gore supporter who feels that his greater command of international politics is a big part of his (relative) appeal. It's true that domestic issues have dominated the campaign, but when it comes to foreign policy expertise Bush can't touch Gore -- no matter how much pre-debate coaching he gets on the correct pronunciation of the names of foreign leaders.

Also, however, I think that domestic policies and foreign policy are much more inter-related than some may think. Our military strength and international influence are largely dependent on our economic well-being and some degree of internal consensus. As Johnson found out during the Vietnam years, a President can't divorce his foreign policy agenda from his domestic agenda, or he'll lose support for both.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 09:04 AM

well, I can't let that one pass in good conscience. Troll, in a word, BULLSHIT. What you say never happens here just happened to my neighbor. Who was treated with analgesics and muscle relaxants for lung cancer, undiagnosed for over a year, despite the fact that he already had a history of cancer.

What he didn't have was money, so he continued going to his job at the textile mill until a few months before the end. I don't know what kind of insurance he got from them, it didn't do shit for him though.

The mill got its full measure of labor from him, the insurance company got its cut of his paycheck every week, the doctors who somehow failed to notice for over a year that he was dying of cancer, they got their cut, too.

All he got was, at the end, a hospice nurse to pump him full of morphine. Lucky him.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 10:28 AM

Then his doctors should be sued for medical malpractice and have their license to practice medicine revoked. I am aware that these things happen but they happen here with less frequency I believe.
If you will carefully read the second paragraph of my posting you will see that I am dead set against the big corporations whose only reason for existance is money. But I find that they are no worse that big government whose only goal is power.
I have looked at my wording and can see how you could have thought I meant "never". Otherwise, I stand by what I said.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 10:39 AM

Troll said:

...I am dead set against the big corporations whose only reason for existance is money. But I find that they are no worse that big government whose only goal is power.

I think that says it all. I used to think that the only justification for either big business or big government was that each acted as a check on abuses by the other. Now that I'm coming to realize that each is in the pocket of the other, as it were, I tend to say a plague on both their houses. But I'm not sure what to do about it. Maybe start a Jeffersonian liberal party.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:35 AM

Things have taken a nasy turn when I agree with Troll!! LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:10 PM

Kendall? Agreeing with ME?
Quick.Invest in ice-skate stock. Hell has surely frozen over.

troll...(evil chuckle)


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Subject: RE: BS: More Politics
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM

I'll buy a couple of shares, Troll. The only thing Kendall and I agree on is that we both like women! Sad for me that he is better looking than I am.

DougR


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