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BS: Are you your own person?

JamesJim 25 Oct 00 - 02:29 AM
Metchosin 25 Oct 00 - 03:16 AM
Metchosin 25 Oct 00 - 03:41 AM
The Shambles 25 Oct 00 - 06:23 AM
Gervase 25 Oct 00 - 06:45 AM
John P 25 Oct 00 - 07:58 AM
Mooh 25 Oct 00 - 08:02 AM
harpgirl 25 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM
Rick Fielding 25 Oct 00 - 08:33 AM
Gary T 25 Oct 00 - 09:20 AM
Kim C 25 Oct 00 - 09:45 AM
Little Neophyte 25 Oct 00 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM
mousethief 25 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM
MMario 25 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM
mousethief 25 Oct 00 - 11:48 AM
annamill 25 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM
Lyrical Lady 25 Oct 00 - 12:15 PM
harpgirl 25 Oct 00 - 12:31 PM
Little Neophyte 25 Oct 00 - 12:50 PM
DougR 25 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM
John Hardly 25 Oct 00 - 02:27 PM
mousethief 25 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM
DougR 25 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM
mousethief 25 Oct 00 - 05:25 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Oct 00 - 08:15 PM
Matt_R 25 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM
JamesJim 26 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM
kimmers 26 Oct 00 - 12:27 AM
katlaughing 26 Oct 00 - 01:04 AM
JamesJim 26 Oct 00 - 01:53 AM
MiriamKilmer 26 Oct 00 - 09:50 AM
katlaughing 26 Oct 00 - 10:38 AM
JamesJim 26 Oct 00 - 08:13 PM
Little Hawk 26 Oct 00 - 10:28 PM
katlaughing 27 Oct 00 - 12:53 AM
JamesJim 27 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM
kendall 27 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM
Troll 27 Oct 00 - 10:02 PM
JamesJim 27 Oct 00 - 11:50 PM
Thyme2dream 28 Oct 00 - 01:53 AM
GUEST,Terry Allan Hall (a guest?...I'm honored!) 28 Oct 00 - 10:38 AM
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Subject: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:29 AM

One of the political threads got me thinking; how many Mudcatters work for themselves? Could be anything from full time Folk Singing/performing to making widgets and employing a lot of people. Have you ever thought about starting your own business? If you made the jump, what was your motivation? What kind of business are you in? What are the pros & cons of working for yourself?

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:16 AM

JamesJim, I'm too tired from working for myself to answer all those questions right now. Which probably answers a lot of your questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:41 AM

and anyone who thinks they might be their own person if they went into business for themselves should probably take a long hard look first, before taking the plunge. *JMAWG* ( just managing a weak grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:23 AM

"I owe my soul to the company store".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:45 AM

Metchosin said it all.
I never thought business could be creative, but it is. I never thought business would be so knackering, but it is. I never thought business would be so rewarding, but it is...
The only trouble is, it leaves me so little time to fossick around on the 'Cat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: John P
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:58 AM

I have a job and my wife and I run a small business out of the house. My wife is self-employed, so she runs two small businesses out of the house. Most people I know who run their own business don't have a life, so I think the title of this thread is a bit inaccurate. There seems to also be the implication that people who aren't self-emplyed aren't their own people.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Mooh
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:02 AM

Um, I'm only half my own person. No, I'm only half a person. Well, half of me is... never mind.

Half time for the local school board, wherein I'm not my own I guess, even though I haven't seen a boss in weeks and I do pretty much whatever I please within the limits of my job description.

Half time for me, my own person, in private guitar (bass and mandolin too)lessons out of my home.

We've discussed some of this stuff in the career oriented threads, but suffice it to say that the music is alot more fulfilling and rewarding.

Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM

I work for myself, but I gotta go to work and the boss says I need to be on time so I can't answer any questions right now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:33 AM

Who the hell else would hire me?

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:20 AM

I have a one-man shop (auto repair). The pros and cons are:

I get to do everything my way, and

I get to do everything


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:45 AM

I have a full-time boring job (which is where I have this computer) at which I am woefully underemployed (thus I have time to be on the computer). But the stress is usually pretty low and the people on the whole are nice to work with.

On the side, though, I sell cosmetics, make jewelry, soap, knitted goods, sing, and once in awhile do a calligraphy job for someone who realizes the value of real handwriting. Eventually I would like to be completely self-employed but it's going to be awhile. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 10:04 AM

Being self-employed I only have to sleep with myself to get to the top.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM

Am I my own person?
I wish I bloody was, I am someones, mum, wife, daughter, employee - its a bit like being a dogsbody most of the time. I very occasionaly get to be me. I need assertion classes badly. I am always trying to please everyone. I did once work with a partner in a business - guess who did all the work. I need a medal for being stupid!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM

I am my own person who works for someone else. Nobody owns me but me. I hate to be a sour lemon, but that's rather an unpleasant way to frame the question.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM

I started to answer much as Alex did...but a more honest answer for me is "God NO! How could I possibly be?" - So much of what is me is due to those pieces of me that are "owned" by others. Or that have been given.

And while I think a tinge of self-centeredness is necessary -- I think that "being one's own person" - if somebody truly is one's own person is either very self-centered...or very, very lonely and a little sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:48 AM

I would agree, MMario, except you can't give away anything that doesn't belong to you. So in that sense, you have to "be your own person" in order to give yourself away to others. Which in turn makes you more you.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: annamill
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM

I'm tryin like hell! Soon I hope!

Love, annamill


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:15 PM

My husband and I own a general store which takes our energy 14/7/364. We close for Christmas Day! We are definately not our own people ... not to ourselves...not to each other ... we belong to the people of our little island. We are so busy bringing in supplies for everyone's table, that we barely have time to sit at our own! We have a staff that depend on us for employment and shelter and food. We haven't had a holiday together for 4 years. I'm trying to think what the rewards are mmmm...nothing is coming to mind right now. I guess I'm too tired to think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:31 PM

...but heck Bonnie...you get to sleep with the best! What is it you do anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:50 PM

I have a private practice counseling nutrition as a dietitian. Mostly I see clients who are overweight due to emotional issues that tend to make them eat too much.

Bonnie RD


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM

Bonnie: I NEED You! My problem, alas, is not due to emotional issues, I just like to eat things that aren't good for me.

I owned a travel agency for five years. I never worked so hard in my life. I also had a consulting business for seven years and that was the best job I ever had (but I sure got tired of traveling). I quit the consulting business to go into the travel business. I retired in 1996, but still operate a one person consulting business out of my home. All things considered, I still would rather operate my own business, though, than be an employee.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:27 PM

My pottery has been my sole income for the last 23 years. Creative but insecure as..well..working for someone else:>)!

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM

The nice thing about being a wage-earner is that when you go home, you leave work behind 100%. Weekends free of work, vacation free of work, evenings free of work.

Bwahahaha! I'm so glad I'm not self-employed!

Takes all kinds, don't it?

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM

No question about it, Alex, being an employee does have its advantages. Unfortunately (for me), I never had a job where I could leave the work at the office when I left though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:25 PM

Sorry to hear that, Doug.

Did I mention really cheap health insurance?

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:15 PM

The nice thing about my job is, I can't be fired or laid off, because slaves have to be sold... LOL Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Matt_R
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM

Well, I used to be my own person...then another person lived in me for a while...it was beautiful. But all things must end, not there's not much left of me, but I'm trying to build myself back up brick by brick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM

Oh man! I'm an idiot. Of course! You are just trying to escape your paranoia! (Duh!) You are trying to break free from your slavery. That's why you're here on the Cat!

My apologies to all of you who are living lives of drudgery (and for my thoughtlessly reminding you of it). Is anyone out there having any fun? "But that lucky old sun, has nothing to do, but roll around heaven all day." I obviously should have phrased the question better/differently, but I will not take a second shot at it.

I simply forgot what I do to escape. I play and sing folk music. You are all here trying to escape! That's it! (Light bulb going off) And what did I do?....I brought you down...brought you back to reality. I am so sorry!

I wish blessings on you all! Having said that (from the heart), I would add a few words from Martin Luther King, Jr.:

"If a man is called to be a streetsweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespere wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great streetsweeper who did his job well."

I'm sure that each of you can truly say you are your own person (regardless of whether or not you own your own business). I did not mean to imply that you had to own your own business to be so. For those of you who truly feel trapped, break free my friend. Life is too short to be a slave to anything or anyone.

Peace!

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: kimmers
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:27 AM

My partners and I own our practice, so I guess that makes me my own boss. But for me, music is only a hobby and a diversion, unlike some of you.

The one thing I have noticed about being my own boss is that it makes me ornery. I'm not used to takin' any guff of anyone anymore. Call it a power trip, I don't know. But I love it; I can't imagine leaving the decisions to some faceless multimilliondollar healthcare megaclinic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:04 AM

JamesJim, glad you cleared that up. I was just going to give you an honest answer to what I thought you'd plainly asked, but then I decided not to because everyone else had interpreted it differently. *BG*

I have had the great good fortune to work for myself for many years, with the monetary and moral support of my SO, Rog. I never made a lot of money, but that was not the object. It allowed me to be home when my kids were home before and after school and to work at things which I loved/love doing: writing; jewelry-design; original classical music promotion, publishing and producing; non-profit arts development; sales of all kinds of those tacky plastic promotional items; my own pseudo ad agency which was a blast.

Motivation was always to be able to be there for my kids and to work at something I enjoyed and believed in. I have really been blessed to have such a supportive partner. Of course, he says I paid plenty of dues before meeting him, as a single mom of three, and I am inclined to agree with him.

It has cost us. We have nothing in assets to speak of, but neither one of us regrets it nor would we want to go back and change it.

We tried Rog working freelance (boradcast engineer) for about 4 years and it went really well until the Venezuelan exchange rate went sky high and his clients couldn't afford to pay us, so we lost $20,000 in a signed contract, work completed, BUT neither one of us regrets the experience at all. In some ways it was good for his soul, he fell in love with the country and the people and would go back in a heartbeat, although they'd have to pay 100% UPFRONT with a paid for round trip plane ticket!:-)

Now, he's been working for someone else for 4 years on call 24/7/365 and he is worn out. The job never gets left behind. With the downsizing we are doing and moving in with our daughter, we are hoping to save some money and buy him some time to rest, think, and figure out what it is he wants to do, as he cannot go on working at this rate. After a few months off, he may go to work for someone else again as health insurance and the like are very important to us right now, BUT, if there is anyway we can figure out for him not to, that would be best.

Continuing with my writing, which is what I focus on mainly, now, I've just become more serious about it and joined a union (Hey! Big Mick, are you listening! I joined up!) and am hopeful that I can provide more of our income through the exclusive job listings they provide.

It's been 7 years since I've worked for anyone else. Hard for me to think of ever going back to that.

JamesJim, is this something you are thinking of doing? Going to work for yourself, or do you already? For those of you who are and say that it owns you, I would urge you to figure out a way to take a break. Seems to me part of the motivation of working for yourself or owning your own business would be so that you have some time to do things you enjoy, too. Sorry, I do not mean to offend.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:53 AM

Kat, I'm in and out of Mudcat and not really as acquainted with the folks here as I would like to be. I can honestly say, I learned a great deal about you from your brief response. It's good to see someone who really is in control and enjoying life. We all have hills to climb in our life and they often appear out of nowhere. You seem to recognize them quickly and breakout the climbing gear.

I spent 28 years as an executive with a very large insurance brokerage firm (our British friends will surely recognize the name "Willis" - once known as Willis Faber, then Willis Corroon, now just "Willis)." I've had my share of hills in this life, but I was very fortunate to work for a Company that allowed me to manage my own operation (the company is really what is known as a "holding company," meaning it merely acquired agencies and allows them to continue operating under certain corporate guidelines).

My good job led to good fortune, which led me to early retirement. And... now I find myself working on a project dear to my heart. Soon, a dear friend (John Gage)and myself will produce a public radio show, filled with Kentucky folk artists. We have incredible talent here in this state and we intend to bring it to as many people as we possibly can, via the airways. We have the perfect venue, that being an old downtown movie theater (seats about 200). We have already had one sell out concert in it and it was great. We are working to renovate the theater and bring it back to it's glory days (at least as much as possible).

Kat, I admire people who have a dream and go for it. I have always loved music and now I am really immersed in something special. It's true, I do not have to be concerned with making a living at it, thus the pressures felt by many who responded to this thread, are not there for me (I really admire those with the conviction and talent to make their living as a folk singer - God knows it surely isn't easy). I have had my share of pressure and could have chosen an easier route in life (something different than my career). Something or Someone gave me the drive and desire to succeed (you know, it might have just been "fear." The fear of failure is a powerful thing). Whatever it was, I'll be forever grateful for it -- now I can devote my time to a perhaps, more worthy cause.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 09:50 AM

Long hours, few breaks, very little pay - yes, I work "for myself."

See my website: www.risingdove.com I have lots of goodies for musicians there. As to being my own person - well - I've got hundreds of alters. I think that's probably a "no, but I'm working on it."

Here's the announcement I made a few years ago when I decided to emerge from the closet. It didn't work very well because lots of people thought I was kidding.

Anybody want to contribute a tune?

---

"A Public Confession" (Or, "Oh! That Explains It!")

The limerick's not quite appropriate For passing along diagnoses. It May seems like a joke To the skeptical folk; But it's better than having an Oprah fit.

Limerickal rhythm and rhyme, Many alters consider, is chyme. But "Silly Wife," (who'ce Also called "Silly Goose") Is having a wonderful time!

My announcement of multiple alter -s has caused some relations to falter. One says, "That explains it!" Another complains, "It Has brought me to tears of salt walter."

Multiplicity has its distractions, Yet there are a few minor attractions. "But you said…." "Oh, that's blarney! It must have been Barney!" May serve as excuse for my actions.

Forgive me; poetic pronouncement Is such a weird form of announcement! I tried other ways: In a hint; in a haze - But my efforts were not worth an ouncement.

My verses have sparked a dichotomy: Did they hear? I'm not sure, and I oughta be, So I add this refrain: MPD is a pain, But it's better than frontal lobotomy.

Perhaps even this is not clear If your DSM-IV† is not near, But I can't scan "Disorder" And "Multiple" (in order) "Personality," and rhyme it, dear!

"How many are there?" That's prime! I can't count them, but dozens can rhyme. If each one inserts "Just one more:" one last verse, It will go on a very long time.

My mother's the last one to know it, Though often, if subtly, I show it. To family and friends, My apology ends: "What I am, after all, is a poet *. "

* My husband, Tim, says he thinks the statement in the last line is questionable, when applied to those who write limericks! † DSM-IV is Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. That's not anapestic.

copyright 2000 Miriam A. Kilmer (Non-commercial use is free. All other rights reserved.)

-----

As for the Miriam who wrote the three posts from 1998 - I'm not she. Not at all, no way, in no sense. I don't know who she is. I was allowed to take my desired nickname, "Miriam," because the other Miriam had been inactive for a long time. I've now changed my nickname from "Miriam" to "MiriamKilmer" in what will probably prove to be a fruitless effort to avoid confusion.

Coincidentally, I'm a Paul Robeson fan too, but I didn't get to the Paul Robeson exhibit at the New-York Historical Society. Why was I not informed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:38 AM

Miriam, Welcome to the Mudcat and thanks for sharing your info and your website with us. It looks very interesting; I will take a better look when I have more time. Coming out must've taken a lot of courage.

Jim, I may speak confidently, but I don't feel in control a lot of the time because there are, quite literally, things beyond my control, personal and otherwise. BUT, I do feel fairly happy; a little antsy not knowing where the next move will be, but sure in the knowledge that there must be a next move.

My *climbing gear* includes a lot of good, good friends, several of them Mudcatters, who throw me a rope or pound in a pylon, a lot of times. I have never done anything without a lot of support and encouragement from others. I've always just tried to roll with the punches and get up to try, again. When I figured out some metaphysics, I learned to give thanks for the things I wanted to bring into my life and that has wound up working out pretty well. I don't always get what I think I want, as I always qualify it with a "this something better for the highest good of all concerned."

Your project sounds fantastic!! I love old theatres and to combine them with music is wonderful! Whereabouts in Kentucky is it? My son works in Louisville. How wonderful that you are seeing the rewards of your career/life choices! Sounds like we ought to have a Mudcat gathering there sometime!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:13 PM

Kat/k, the theater and me are in Louisville (it's the old Kentucky Theater on Fourth Street). And, having a Mudcat gathering here is one great idea. It would be good to do in conjunction with a "Homefront" concert.

Where does your son live? Work? You can send me an e-mail at JamesJimFolk@cs.com.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:28 PM

Yeah, I'm my own person now, due to some fortuitous turns of fate. I wasn't until pretty recently, and I worked at some of the worst paid jobs in Canada (like gas station attendant, taxi driver, and folksinger). I now own a small export company and things are looking good.

To expand on the subject, however, I think that I became my own person when I started living to fulfill my own dreams and expectations, rather than someone else's (like my parents, my teachers, my friends, my lover's, my neighbour's, or whatever). Having a reliable source of income has, mind you, been a huge help in doing that.

By the way, since I have started fulfilling my own dreams, I find that I am more beneficial to all those other people too, and they even like me better, although I sometimes don't do precisely what they want me to...in terms of my own life. How about that, eh? Share the wealth. It's a lot easier when you are happy and fulfilled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 12:53 AM

Jim, he is in New Albany and I don't know the name of the guy he works for, but he is one of the big-time landlords of Louisville, whole bunch of apt. complexes. Colin is the manager for HVAC. He did a bunch of other work for him before working up to that position. His SO is getting her Ph.D at University there.

I have emailed him with your above postings about the theatre and your email addy, so hopefully you will hear from him. He is kind of shy about "cold calls" to mom's friends, so if he doesn't get in touch, please don't be offended, you will meet him when we have a gathering, which by the way, would probably be a lot more likely for us to be able to get to if it was next spring, or at least after January.:-)

Thanks!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM

Thanks Kat. I hope he contacts me. You might tell him we can always use help at the theater. It would be great if he has any friends who sing/play. We'll certainly keep the "gathering" in mind for early next year.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM

I spent many years in the law enforcement business (where the customer is always wrong) still, I had bosses. Now, I'm retired and I travel around singing old songs and telling old stories. I do this if and when I want, and, I'm now like Russian toilet paper..I dont take no S..t off nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:02 PM

I have spent my working life in the employ or others. I have worked on two man operations and for the Postal Service-which is about as big as it gets-for thirty years and I still work for my family and I am and always have been my own man.
Through it all, I have had my music to sustain me and the love of my children to lighten the load.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: JamesJim
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 11:50 PM

Hey Kendall, I love the "Russian Toilet Paper" bit. Glad to hear someone who has worked so hard is now having so much fun (not that you didn't before you retired, but ain't it sweet now)?

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 01:53 AM

I guess you could say I'm my kids' own person...motherhood is my chosen career at present, and part of the 'career' includes a job that I don't really love, but it sort of pays the bills. I know there are women out there who sucessfully balance homelife and a REAL career, but I don't seem to be one of those...things are a lot more peaceful around my house since I quit trying out every new creative but risky way to earn a living that popped into my head, and settled into a mundane but steady job!

I don't resent my current situation in life...bein a mum is a lot of fun in between the stress-chaos stuff, and I can always look forward to future times when I'll be free to take the risks I'm avoiding just now and go out in search of a more creative way to earn a living!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are you your own person?
From: GUEST,Terry Allan Hall (a guest?...I'm honored!)
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:38 AM

Full-time folk-singer...my "day-job" is performing in a variety nursing homes, VA hospitals, etc... About 10-15 each week.

Good $$$, plus a constant warm feeling from bringing a little sunshine into people's lives...and the hours can't be beat - and it leaves me time to perform in the evening at restaurants, coffee-houses, book-stores, etc., which don't always pay all that well...

Best of all, I'm almost always at home in time to tuck my kids in!


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Mudcat time: 14 December 9:15 PM EST

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