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BS: more weirdness--past lives

Ely 30 Sep 00 - 12:01 AM
Mbo 30 Sep 00 - 12:06 AM
Ely 30 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM
katlaughing 30 Sep 00 - 01:08 AM
BigDaddy 30 Sep 00 - 01:19 AM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 30 Sep 00 - 01:23 AM
mg 30 Sep 00 - 01:39 AM
katlaughing 30 Sep 00 - 01:40 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 30 Sep 00 - 08:47 AM
Mbo 30 Sep 00 - 09:32 AM
katlaughing 30 Sep 00 - 09:48 AM
Troll 30 Sep 00 - 10:16 AM
Naemanson 30 Sep 00 - 12:52 PM
Little Hawk 30 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM
katlaughing 30 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM
Morticia 30 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM
Ebbie 30 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM
Lepus Rex 30 Sep 00 - 01:26 PM
Ferrara 30 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM
hesperis 30 Sep 00 - 07:52 PM
Mbo 30 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM
Little Hawk 30 Sep 00 - 09:29 PM
Ebbie 30 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM
hesperis 30 Sep 00 - 10:26 PM
Little Hawk 30 Sep 00 - 10:27 PM
Mbo 30 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM
katlaughing 01 Oct 00 - 12:34 AM
BigDaddy 01 Oct 00 - 12:54 AM
katlaughing 01 Oct 00 - 12:59 AM
Mbo 01 Oct 00 - 01:00 AM
katlaughing 01 Oct 00 - 01:13 AM
Lepus Rex 01 Oct 00 - 02:19 AM
sophocleese 01 Oct 00 - 11:18 AM
Lepus Rex 01 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM
Lepus Rex 01 Oct 00 - 03:50 PM
Ebbie 01 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM
katlaughing 01 Oct 00 - 05:21 PM
celticblues5 02 Oct 00 - 01:46 AM
Wolfgang 02 Oct 00 - 11:23 AM
Skeptic 02 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM
Mrrzy 02 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM
Ringer 02 Oct 00 - 12:41 PM
Ebbie 02 Oct 00 - 12:55 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Oct 00 - 01:01 PM
Penny S. 02 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM
mousethief 02 Oct 00 - 01:27 PM
katlaughing 02 Oct 00 - 01:33 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Oct 00 - 01:45 PM
Ringer 02 Oct 00 - 01:50 PM
katlaughing 02 Oct 00 - 01:52 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 Oct 00 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Amazink the Alchemist 02 Oct 00 - 03:02 PM
Ebbie 02 Oct 00 - 04:14 PM
Little Hawk 02 Oct 00 - 04:28 PM
Peg 02 Oct 00 - 04:32 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Oct 00 - 04:38 PM
Ebbie 02 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM
sophocleese 02 Oct 00 - 05:15 PM
sophocleese 02 Oct 00 - 05:20 PM
katlaughing 02 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM
Amos 02 Oct 00 - 08:31 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Oct 00 - 09:17 PM
GUEST,"adam" 02 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM
Ebbie 03 Oct 00 - 01:43 AM
Wolfgang 04 Oct 00 - 09:07 AM
Kim C 04 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM
Ebbie 04 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM
hesperis 04 Oct 00 - 03:09 PM
sophocleese 04 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM
Ebbie 04 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM
Lonesome EJ 04 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM
sophocleese 04 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM
Ebbie 04 Oct 00 - 07:37 PM
Mbo 04 Oct 00 - 07:56 PM
Troll 04 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM
Amos 04 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM
Ely 04 Oct 00 - 11:03 PM
BigDaddy 05 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM
Matt Woodbury/Mimosa 05 Oct 00 - 06:37 AM
Little Neophyte 05 Oct 00 - 06:57 AM
Troll 05 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM
Little Neophyte 05 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM
Troll 05 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM
katlaughing 05 Oct 00 - 09:58 AM
Ferrara 05 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM
Ferrara 05 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM
hesperis 05 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM
Wavestar 05 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM
sophocleese 05 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM
Wavestar 05 Oct 00 - 02:52 PM
Little Neophyte 05 Oct 00 - 03:03 PM
Bearheart 05 Oct 00 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Methuselah Discarnate 05 Oct 00 - 07:20 PM
Amos 06 Oct 00 - 02:22 AM
Wolfgang 06 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM
mousethief 06 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM
Little Neophyte 06 Oct 00 - 12:57 PM
mousethief 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM
Ebbie 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM
Kim C 06 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM
Peg 06 Oct 00 - 01:13 PM
Amergin 06 Oct 00 - 01:19 PM
Little Neophyte 06 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM
Peg 06 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM
Fortunato 06 Oct 00 - 03:55 PM
flattop 06 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM
Amergin 06 Oct 00 - 04:22 PM
sophocleese 06 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM
mousethief 06 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM
Ferrara 06 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM
BigDaddy 07 Oct 00 - 04:53 AM
Lena 07 Oct 00 - 07:37 AM
hesperis 07 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM
Little Hawk 07 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM
GUEST 07 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM
Skeptic 07 Oct 00 - 05:41 PM
Amos 07 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM
hesperis 07 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM
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Subject: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ely
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:01 AM

Since we've been having some good discussions on other aspects of the "paranormal" (hey, Hallowe'en is on the way) and this is something that has interested me for a long time, I thought I'd ask.

Does anyone have thoughts on past lives?

The reason I ask is that my mother has told me for years that, when I was little, numerous people told her that I was an "old soul". She had one friend who could not stand to be left alone with me (although he thought I was a good kid and had nothing against me personally) because he could not get over the feeling that I was an older person in a small child's body and he was a little afraid of me.

I also, instead of an imaginary playmate, had an imaginary home. I repeatedly described to her in detail my cabin in the mountains (down to the kinds of flowers in the pots on the porch), my pets (we had none at the time--I had never experienced having animals in the house), and my old pickup truck. She thought for a long time that I simply had an unusually vivid imagination, even for a kid, but later thought it was odd that the details were so consistent, for I described them in the same way on many separate occasions. I was probably three or four at the time and cabins and old pickup trucks were not at all part of my life experience. She now thinks I must have lived there in a past life and had not completely left them behind.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:06 AM

Ely, now you're scaring me! ;-) I don't believe in past lives, but for some reason, when writing tunes, I almost ALWAYS find myself drifting, and these Middle-Eastern-sounding tunes seems to come to mind very easily. Very strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ely
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM

Hee hee! Who knows?

I'm not sure I believe it, either, but I surely can't say I DON'T believe in it. I just don't know. But if Mom's right, I guess I could think of it as getting a head start . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:08 AM

I do believe in them and know of a couple of mine, at least. (No, I wasn't anybody fmaous.**BG**)

My youngest daughter was obviously an "old soul" from the time she was very little. She really startled us one time, when she was about 3 years old. It was the first time she'd been to a city we were visiting. At the time, she didn't know any of her grandfathers and had no idea what or who they were. Imagine our surprise then, while we were driving down a busy blvd, when she started telling us, in detail, how she had lived there with her "grandad." Also, she and I are fairly certain she was my parent in past lives together.

It is a common experience in places such as India, for parents to encourage these memories in their children. After parents discover *who* their child was in a past life, I've read stories about how they then take their child to the family of their former self, thus assuaging the grief of their previous family, in knowing they continue to live, albeit as a new *person*.

This is a spiritual belief of mine, which I hold with deep conviction through demonstration of events etc., so I hope nobody takes potshots at me. Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:19 AM

Yes, Ely & Kat. My six year old son (Ian) has also been referred to as an "old soul" for most of his short life. When he was younger, he used to ask me, "Daddy, do you remember when you were little and I was big and took care of you?" I have three friends, each of Irish ancestry, who, although they don't know each other, have told me on separate occasions that Ian and I have "been together before." And one is a practicing Catholic!. Ian used to refer to his "ghost brothers," and said "the best of us died back in '24." Most children seem to start losing these memories when they are about four years old. If we start taking potshots I'd be glad to continue this discussion via e-mail.

J.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:23 AM

Past Lives
lyrics and music by Maury Rosenberg (Hypnotic Clambake)

I was a farmer, I was a flower
I was an onion that had a lot of power.
I was a lobster, I was a crab.
I was a lady with a shopping bag.
I left this body when I was Hypnotized.
I started talking about my bast lives.
Here I am going back in time.
I wonder what I'm gonna find...........

Here I am racing round inside my brain in some strange town.
Flying a plane into a hill, next thing you know my name is Bill.
Sitting in the bathtub, drying my hair, next thing you know I'm a grizzly bear.
Chasing around into a tree, next thing you know I'm a bumblebee.
As a bumble bee I die of old age, now here I am in a different stage.


I left this body when I was Hypnotized.
I started talking about my Past Lives.
Here I am going back in time.
I wonder what I'm gonna find.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mg
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:39 AM

I think I can sort of remember 2 past lives....one was a s a slave or captive of the vikings...I think I was from Scotland maybe...I tanned hides I think...also I think I was a Ukranian mother taken out and shot before WWII..I have been told I was also the mother superior of a convent who was a botanist or herbalist...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:40 AM

Cute, Rich! Thanks for posting it.

Potshots or no, BigDaddy, there is much I know that I wouldn't put in a public forum. It is interesting stuff, isn't it? Thanks for your posting.

Ya'll might find my TFTD thread interesting for this Sunday. I met up with one of my ancestral relations in the form of a tree, this time round.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 08:47 AM

When my daughter and I first began getting involved in the sheep biz thru 4H, I took delight in the sight and smell and sound of the animals. My hands reveled in the feel of wool and the few times I've tried spinning I took to it immediately, to the surprise and delight of my teachers.
Once, driving to or from a sheep fair, my daughter was asking me about my childhood memories, as she often does. I always need to pause and think for a bit, since a lot of my childhood was spent in daydreams and the memories are a bit misty.
Suddenly I had a flash of a vivid image of myself as a little girl, standing outside a stone cottage with a shabbily thatched roof in sad need of repair. An older woman sat by me, spinning, I think, and an old man came out of a shed next to the house carrying a sheep. The air was cool. That's all I had of the image, but it shook me- I've never been in such a place as far as I know, nor known any sheep people until the past few years. Was it a past life memory? Or collective unconscious from my Irish ancestry? I don't know!


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HIGHWAYMAN (Jimmy Webb)
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:32 AM

Here's a great song about past lives. I sung this one on HearMe a few nights ago...it came out when I was 6 years old...simply one of the greatest songs ever.

The Highwaymen

I was a highwayman
Along the coach roads I did ride
With sword and pistol by my side
Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade
Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade
The bastards hung me in the spring of '25
But I'm still alive...

I was a sailor
I was born upon the tide
With the sea I did abide
I sailed a schooner round the horn of Mexico
I went aloft and furled the main sail in a blow
And when the yard broke off they say that I got killed
But I'm living still...

I was a dam builder
Across a river deep and wide
Where steel and water did collide
At a place called Boulder, on the wild Colorado
I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below
They buried me in that grey tomb that knows no sound
But I'm still around...

I'll always be around, and around
And around, and around, and around

I fly a starship
Across the universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain...

And I'll be back again, and again
And again, and again, and again...


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:48 AM

Thanks, Mbo, great song!


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:16 AM

This may take a little time... About 16 years ago, my wife, son and I were going to visit friends in England. I had never been there and had seen no pictures of their cottage. One night just before we left, I had a dream about the cottage. As we drove out of Wooster I remarked that the road seemed familiar and eventually I said that the turn-off was over the next hill but that I'd rpobably miss the road. My wife kept silent and as we rolled by I said,"Thats it but theres a place around the curve where we can turn." There was.
We turned into the lane and at the first house she said," Here we are." "No "said I,"It's on up the lane." It was. We went straight into the kitchen . My wife told about what had happened and our friend, Colin, asked me to describe the rest of the house, which I did. When he asked about the up-stairs I replied that I had never been up-stairs. I said this without thinking how strange a statement it was.
Several days later my son, who was 21/2 at the time, went for a walk in the woods by the cottage.We circled around and came out at the far side of the property. There was the view I had seen in my dream. I later found out that the fireplace in the cottage dated from the 14th century.
About a year later, I read that there was a Roman trade road that ran through the area so when I called Colin to chat with him I asked him if he knew of it.
Yes, he said, the gully that ran along the edge fo his property was part of it.
The view of the cottage in my dream was from the vantage of that road.
I don't believe in reincarnation and all that but...

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:52 PM

To start with I do not believe in past lives. I refuse to take pot shots at anyone so you can all relax. You believe what you want to and I'll believe what I want to. What you believe doesn't diminish my respect for you. Vive la difference.

Having said that, when I was young I felt an immense attraction to Africa. I never made it there but I used to devour any literature I could find about that continent. I think I was the only one in my class who knew that Sir Richard Burton was not an actor.

I have felt the same pull to England and Ireland but almost none for Scotland or any of the continental European countries. I have no idea what this means.

I have heard a number of people talk about past lives (both here and outside of this discussion) and almost none of them seem to have experienced life as another race than their own. The sole exception is that some of them seem to have been Indians at one time or another.

Whatever the cause of these feelings(?)/memories(?)/experiences(?) they do send a lovely shiver of delight and connection into the soul and I like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM

I've reached the point where I think it's weird if people DON'T believe in past lives! More on this later...


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM

Naemanson, my husband, brother and I all know that we've been different races, in particular Asian and Egyptian at some time in the past, as well as Native American.

Thanks for the respect. It is appreciated and equally extended to you. esp. since you appreciate the *shivers*.**BG**

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Morticia
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM

when my daughter was small and I ticked her off or thwarted her she would often ask to be taken back to her 'other mummy' or her 'real mummy'.....she would also hold long conversations with someone I couldn't see but who apparently was standing right behind me......since she was only 2 I can't believe it was purely imagination.....sometimes who ever it was would make her laugh and a 2 year old can't fake that.......I have no explanations but it's interesting


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM

In meditation once, I watched as a young girl- maybe 7, maybe 5 - her brown hair in two braids, wearing a purplish dress that kind of hung from her shoulders, came through a doorway that had a single cloth, also purplish, hung in it rather than a door.

The little girl was playing and she came forward and ducked under a rough table- I heard the slap, slap of her bare feet on the stone floor. The table's legs were crossed in an X.

Behind me- from my observer's viewpoint- was a wall with windows set high -way above eye level- through which the sun sent long beams onto the gray floor. To my right was an unlit fireplace. To my left, way down the hall were 4 or 5 men grouped at the far end of another long table, laughing and loud as they were eating. Beyond them was a large lit fireplace.

As I watched the little girl, it came to me that this was the scullery maid's daughter and that she died at 10 years when she was raped and killed. And I knew it was me.

( Remember, brought up as I was, I never saw a movie until I was 17 years old. I believe in reincarnation more than I do not because no other explanation makes as much sense to me.)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:26 PM

Well, my entry isn't really a past lives thing, but just some goofy weird thing...

About... 8 years ago or so, while visiting my mother's house, I had a weird experience. I woke up one morning, sweating and breathing heavily, hearing myself cry out a strange 'word' over and over. I got up, grabbed a pen, and wrote the word, 'KIMWE,' on a piece of paper. I couldn't remember any dream, and since I don't have (or at least enjoy when I do have) nightmares, I don't know what got me so worried in my sleep.

I'm not sure if 'kimwe' means anything, but I saw somewhere that it might mean something like the number 'one.' The only place it ever came up when I searched on the web was on sites written in a Rwandan language.

Was I, in some other life, a Rwandan beet-monger, murdered while arguing over the price of my wares? (Killer-"I want TWO beets for that price!" Me-"No, you get ONE!" Killer-"No, TWO!" Me-"One!" Killer-*stab* Me-"One! Aaaaiieeee!")

Or maybe I just had a really weird dream;) (About the violent life of Rwandan beet-mongers?)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

Well, I do like the tone of this thread! -- Light and non-confrontational, and very interesting stories.

I've always wondered if past life "memory" was behind the thought I woke up with, morning after morning, when I was touristing in the Scottish Highlands 30 years ago: "Oh, it's so nice to be back where I was born and raised! It's so nice to be home!" This was accompanied by a feeling of happiness and joy.

Once I was fully awake, I'd realize that I was born and raised in Washington, DC, not Scotland. I don't even have Scottish ancestry, far as I know. I didn't even want to visit Scotland, but went grudgingly because my travel mate wanted to go. But every morning those same words went through my mind, and I felt joy from the moment we entered the highlands.

Another interesting bit: the grandfather of a friend of my parents stated firmly, from the time he could talk, that he remembered his "previous life." He said he had gone out fishing with his father when he was 10 and they both drowned. This was a no-nonsense guy from a no-nonsense family, but he knew what he knew... and insisted all his life that he remembered his prior life clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 07:52 PM

Some crazy-cool stories here so far. (That is a compliment.)

I don't remember any lives other than this one - I have trouble remembering this one sometimes!

What I do have, is a facility with musical instruments, and an almost physical sense of having played certain instruments before. Mandolin, definitely. Possibly violin, even though my fingers are too large for it now. I played some kind of flute before, and some kind of brass instrument. I tend to almost remember the feel of playing the instrument, and this feeling of joy at being reunited with a loved instrument has sometimes been so strong that I started to cry.

I have often started playing at a little beyond beginner level, as if I'd learned that already.

Has anyone else had that kind of experience?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM

To quote Oasis:
"I got to be myself
I can't be no one else
I'm feeling supersonic!"


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:29 PM

Here are some notable people who believe(d) very strongly in reincarnation:

Johhny Cash
Waylon Jennings
George Patton
Willie Nelson
and of course Shirley MacLaine (who didn't believe in anything other-worldly for most of her life, but changed her mind in the face of new experiential evidence).

I've had very clear insights into lives as a Native American (Little Hawk), a German, a Japanese, an Englishwoman, an Englishman, a Scot, a Russian, an Egyptian, and so on...both male and female lives...as to that gender thing, it's as easy as changing the clothes you wear. This is why I give no credence whatsoever to the notion of a "war between the sexes", nor do I empathize with attempts to separate people according to gender, race, culture or whatever. We are all one, and have shared in these various experiences together. We are all part of a single unity.

So, whoever you are, blessed be.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM

Hesperis, don't you suppose that many of our musical prodigies have had the same response as you- as though they instinctively understood the relationships of notes and phrases? I think it's entirely possible. Maybe someday we'll use the term 'bleedthrough' much more commonly than we do now.

Little Hawk, your view and that of many other mudcatters, notably kat/laughing, simply affirms in my mind the existence of another realm. My reasoning is that being aware of what I have experienced, I know there are others who see more clearly and much farther than I. I plan to learn a good deal more as I travel along but the journey itself is wonderful.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:26 PM

Yes, Ebbie. "Instinctively understood the relationship of notes and phrases". Not that I'm a prodigy, just someone with a haunting sense of familiarity with the language...


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:27 PM

Ebbie - Yes, it's wonderful. Although we all enjoy specially dramatic accounts of past life memory, for most people the most accessible route to past life awareness is to simply take careful note of one's talents, fears, prejudices, likes, dislikes, loves, special interests, etc...then see if there is a clear present life reason for same...if not, it probably comes from a past life influence which is recorded in the soul memory, though not in the memory of the conscious surface of the mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM

Well, I can say I've NEVER had any experiences like that! The strange things I used to say when I was very very small weren't "old soul" stuff, they were just little Mbo bein' Mbo. For instance, when I was 3, I pointed to the crescent moon in the sky and said "Look, someone broke the moon!" (on the other hand, my sister at that age said "Look, it's King Kong's toenail!". Once, after seeing the shadow of a pigeon outside my bedroom window when I was little, I said to my mother "I just saw The Holy Spirit." No "old soul" here, 'cause my soul was unprecedented! They broke the mold when they made me BAY-BEE! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:34 AM

I would like to say I agree with Ferrara, that this is a good and non-confrontational discussion and I really appreciate it.

Ebbie, it took me a while to decide whether to post this or not, but after reading your posting about the little girl who was you and your later posting, I would like to share a bit more.

Just because of the way of the world and the history of women (no offense intended to you guys), I am sure rape is probably a fairly common experience from past lives, for those of us who believe in them.

One regression I went through brought me to the highlands of Scotland. I was a young woman, in my teen years, saying goodbye to an older gentleman who was obviously a favourite relation. I didn't want to leave but was excited all the same. I was going down a river to a larger ship which would sail to France where I was to marry, I believe.

I never made it to France, as I was raped and abused by the crew of the ship. I had a distinct feeling of leaving my body and watching while they threw it overboard in a shroud as I had died.

Coming out of the regression, I realised that that was one reason why I've always been so homesick for Scotland, as I expected to return from time to time after that journey and of course, never did. I also realised it was why I've always felt I knew my paternal grandfather (this lifetime) even though he died one year before I was born. He was the kindly older relative who'd loved me so in Scotland and died of a broken heart not knowing what had ever happened to me.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:54 AM

Dante Gabriel Rosetti wrote a poem called "Sudden Light." I have been here before, But when or how I cannot tell: I know the grass by the door, The sweet keen smell, The sighing sound, the lights around the shore.

You have been mine before, How long ago I may not know: But just when at that swallow's soar Your neck turned so, Some veil did fall, I knew it all of yore.

Has this been thus before? And shall not thus time's eddying flight Still with our lives our loves restore In death's despite, And day and night yield one delight once more?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:59 AM

BigDaddy! Thank you for posting that! It would be wonderful if you came to the Poetry HearMe tomorrow and read it for us, please?**smile**

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:00 AM

kat, how do you get these regressions? Is it a dream or a meditation thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:13 AM

That particular one, Mbo, I went through hypnosis regression. I've also had it happen in meditation and dream. Mostly, though, with Scotland, I've always just *known*; spoke with a Scottish accent a lot of the time when I was young. Words cannot begin to express the homesickness and incredible belonging I feel for Scotland.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 02:19 AM

I'm not sure I believe in all this, but it sure is interesting to read about all your experiences. I have a few more not-really-reincarnation-things, all of which probably have mundane explanations:

Some times, when she was about three years old, my niece would occaisionally babble in what sounded like German, which we thought was odd...

Quite a few times, I've seen pictures, ones that I haven't seen before, of musicians from the first half of the 20th century, and instantly known their names... Maybe I was a fan in another life? ;)

And my cat, Lemmy... When he was young, was really SMART. I know, everyone thinks their cat is a genius, but he was truly strange. People often commented that the way he looked at you was un-cat-like, more like the way a deranged person might look at you. I know some of it's not so strange, but here's some of the things he did:
After a fight with another cat in our house, he picked up a steak knife with his mouth and charged the other cat (we stopped Lemmy before he got to him).
We caught him painting on the wall several times. He would sneak over and dip his feet into our paint when we turned our backs, and would smear it on the wall. His best 'artwork' was a circle with lines radiating from it.
He often used our toilet, which we never taught him to do, and learned how to turn on and off various lights and appliances. We watched as he seemed to try to teach another cat, Gollum, to use a light switch. He set Gollum down in front of the switch, then demonstrated several times how to use it. Lemmy then sat back, and waited for Gollum to try it. He became angry when Gollum just sat there.
He was also very violent (yeah, he's a cat, I know). He had to kept away from our other male cats because he repeatedly raped them (and a couple times, tried to kill them).

Another odd thing he did: He would catch hornets, kill them, remove their stings, and hide their stinger-less corpses. We discovered his cache while he was munching on it like cereal.

Other things, too, but this is getting too long;) After he was neutered, he changed. We expected the rape and excessive violence to end, and it did, but his 'smart' behaviour seemed to decline as well. Over the years, he's become more 'normal.' Oh, I just made it sound like my cat's a psychopath. Oh, well.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 11:18 AM

Lepus Rex have you ever heard this song by The Arrogant Worms?

William Shakespeare's in my Cat, by the Arrogant Worms.

I never much believed in reincarnation
Thought it was only people's imagination
Now I'm forced into some reconsideration
Something's happened to my cat that deserves some explanation

William Shakespeare's in my cat, my kitty is the bard
He used to be a playwright now he's digging up the yard
He' s still a cat in most respects, he likes to meow and purr
But now I introduce him as the cat that wrote Richard the Third
I took him to see Phantom, he said it was quite nice
But he can't go see Miss Saigon until he kills some mice
Until he kills some mice.
William Shakespeare's in my cat, it sometimes seems so deep
They guy who wrote 12th Night chews on my socks at night
I'm really quite impressed, I own the cat who wrote Macbeth
But if something's rotten in the state its just his fishy breath,
Cause

He wrote Romeo and Juliet
But his greatest story yet
Is coming back as someone's pet
And getting neutered by the vet
He got his claws caught in a net
Then he said "To be or not to meee-OW!"

Wiliam Shakespeare's in my cat, he rarely ever talks
He makes his loudest statements standing in the litterbox
He sleeps on all my shelves and throws my books about the house
It doesn't sound like prose when he bats his squeaky mouse.
Beckett's plays are witty, same thing for Bernard Shaw
And Oscar Wilde is pretty but none of them have paws
none of them have paws.
William Shakespeare's in my cat he chases bits of fluff
John Milton's in my goldfish but I never liked his stuff
I'm thinking the Franz Kafka really came back as a bug
And I hope Andrew Lloyd Weber will stay underneath my rug,
Cause

He wrote Romeo and Juliet
But his greatest story yet
Is coming back as someone's pet
And getting neutered by the vet
He got his claws caught in a net
Then he said "To be or not to meee-OW!"


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM

Funny song, sophocleese:) Never heard that one before. But I'm scared to think who's in my cat, now... A violent but artistic sex-criminal who eats bugs? Oh, this can't be good... :O

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 03:50 PM

Oh, a friend just reminded me some about another thing my cat did that was strange, so get ready for MORE creepy cat story boredom! :D

Years ago, my girlfriend at the time was taking a bubble bath at my house. Lemmy was sitting on the counter, staring at her, when she fell asleep. When she woke up, she saw this little wet, grey furry head staring at her out of the suds, right between her knees. She tossed him out, telling him to 'get the hell out,' but from then on, he always would try and get into the tub with her.

He also liked to watch women undress; not men, just women. Which is sort of odd, considering he seemed to prefer male cats to female cats (female cats tended to beat him up, though...)

Another annoying thing he did was throw things into the toilet (books, newspapers, whole rolls of toilet paper) and try to flush them.

At the time, I was interested in reincarnation and all that, so we figured he was just some deviant bastard in another life, and somehow managed to hold on to something from it. So, that's why I bring up all these dopey stories HERE. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

Oh, Lepus Rex, if Spaw gets hold of that bathtub story...!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 05:21 PM

Never mind Spaw! What about Cleigh O'Possum??? Oh no an ocarina getting blown in the tub!

I have a cat of similar ilk, Lepus Rex!


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: celticblues5
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:46 AM

Great cat stories! Great song, Mbo!

I've believed in reincarnation since reading about it in primary school - it just 'clicked' and made sense & was the only belief system, to my sensibilities, where God didn't come off as either indifferent or petty.

Since then, I've met a lot of people who work with that sort of thing (regressions, etc), and they mostly say many of the same things that have come up on this thread already - that if you're strongly drawn to a particular place or time period, it's likely that you have been there, and that seeming prodigies (Mozart, etc) can be explained by reincarnation - and, by the same token, that if you work hard on developing a talent in this current life, then it will be easier for you to come back to that talent in a future life.

I've heard of quite a few small children who talked about "when they were big."

Another interesting idea that some have told me is that works of "fiction" are actually stories of real lives that someone, somewhere has lived, and that these have filtered through an author's subconscious from the universal unconsciousness. I don't know that I'm so inclined to believe this as the other concepts (above), but it's something to muse upon.

Another suggestion I've seen along these lines is that people who are born "gender-confused" is that they may be people who were the opposite sex in the immediately-previous life and reincarnated too quickly, not spending enough time between lives to assimilate what they had just learned - and so still identify with the sex they recently were instead of their current one.

So many interesting ideas out there!


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 11:23 AM

Believe whatever you want to believe, I have no issue with that. However, with respect to some of the stories you tell in support of the concept of reincarnation, I'd like to mention two well supported ideas from memory research:

cryptomnesia: The (unconscious) retention of material learned by the normal channels of information processing (e.g., hearing a story, reading, seeing a movie, personal experiences). Since the persons having these memories have completely forgotten the prosaic source of their memories these seem to come either from another world or to have no rational foundation. They can, however, be very vivid.

confabulation: a phantasy that replaces fact in memory. It may be partly based on fact or completely based on imagination.

The occurence of these 'memories' is well documented and has been used for prosaic explanations of experiences similar to some of the ones reported above.

Hypnotic regression is known to be inducive to the creation of false memories held with great conviction.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Skeptic
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM

I'm new to the group so apologies for diving in.

Wolfgang, A dose of rationality is always welcome, even if its not as much fun as believing in past lives. I myself have distinct memories of being trapped in a windlowless room, dealing with endless bureaucratic trivia.....oh, sorry, that was last week at work.

Those interested in another side of the picture might want to read "The Myth of Repressed Memeory" by Elizabeth Loftus. While the core subject is "recovered memory" and the false memory syndrome, it covers the nature of how memory works, confabulation and to a lessor degree cryptonesia. She deals with hyponosis and offers some fairly interesting examples of just how creative the human mind can be in creating a believed and believable memory of something that never happened.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM

My jury is still out on reincarnation. It is the case that when my (now X2B) and I met for the first time, there was a CRASH of recognition on both of our parts, which is one of the reasons I married him, despite the many, many danger signals. We both felt it likely that we had met in a prior life and had been emotionally coupled then too... Now (20:20 hindsight, or would that be 40:20 if looking into pat lives?), I wonder if we killed each other, it would make more sense that way!


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:41 PM

Ah, a breath of reality. Thanks, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:55 PM

In response to 'skeptics of every color' let me go on record as saying I don't believe that this is a thread where we are interested in arguing the reality of the issue. We've covered that pretty well in another thread. To me, this thread is a gentle relating of personal belief and experience.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:01 PM

Now I remember Wolfgang, in one of my most previous past lives you were my psychiatrist.

Little Neo, who is wondering why she would ever want to look at her past lives when she has enough on her plate with this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM

There are, so I've heard, more people alive than dead. Depending how you define people, I suppose.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:27 PM

I always wondered why people who write books or go on the chat shows about their past lives always seem to be princesses or kings or something in their past lives. It seems like the overwhelming odds are that they were serfs or peasants or slaves or something. (Indeed the overwhelming odds in most periods of human history is that they died in infancy!)

Maybe only the "lucky" ones go on the chat shows, and the former serfs just keep quiet about it.

I have no memories or pseudo-memories which seem to be from a previous life, so I can't say much either way about it; it is not for me to tell somebody else how to interpret their own inner states. I've met and gotten along with people who believe strongly in many things I have no experience in, and/or no belief in. And that's okay. One of my best buddies is a Pagan (with a capital P) (no, not Wiccan, PM me for details), and I am a Christian. Neither of us tries to convert the other, we respect the other's right to believe what he believes, and we get along fine.

And the Christians and the Pagans sit together at the table
Finding faith and common ground as best as they are able
---Dar Williams

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:33 PM

Thank you, Ebbie, I couldn't have said it better myself and IMO, it bears repeating:

"In response to 'skeptics of every color' let me go on record as saying I don't believe that this is a thread where we are interested in arguing the reality of the issue. We've covered that pretty well in another thread. To me, this thread is a gentle relating of personal belief and experience."

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:45 PM

I'm sorry guys, I did not mean to offend anyone.
I am quite sure if I looked at my past lives I would see why I have been given the hand of cards I was dealt this time round.
My apologies if I offended anyone, I was just being silly.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:50 PM

And, evidently, personal "don't believe"s?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:52 PM

LilNeo, you certainly didn't offend me, darlin'. No need to apologise, as far as I am concerned.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 02:45 PM

Wolfgang,I am not a believer in reincarnation,but I certainly am open to the concept.I think the common experience of deja vu may have a scientific explanation,for example,or it could be a memory of the exact same situation having been experienced in a previous go-round.

As I have said before,those who are sceptical would see Heaven and question their vision acuity..those who believe, see God in everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST,Amazink the Alchemist
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 03:02 PM

Vell, you might vant to conshider dat a LOTTT more peeeple ovfer da schenturiez haff conshidered the "Wheel" (repeating aroundt unt aroundt in scheries der lifetimezh) azh prefferable for modelz of exishtance ovfer "Der Plank" (valk vunz oudt to der end and fall off!) model. Don't putt it to a vote!! Der schkeptcz vould ket OFER-whelmedt!

Amazink


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:14 PM

Amazink, thanks. One last word to the skeptics and then I hope to hear more past life posts: As Amazink intimated, not much on earth is linear. Science says that nothing is destroyed, that everything changes into something else, nothing is wasted.

Spring turns into summer, summer into fall, fall into winter, winter back into spring, ad infinitum...Seeds turn into plants, plants give seeds, seeds turn into plants...helpless infants turn into vigorous adults, adults ripen, ripe adults turn into helpless infants... Who is to say the cycle does not continue?

One sensation that I have occasionally had is of being buried. There is a heavy weight on my chest and I feel I have no recourse. I remember one time I drove past a mountain slope that had been stabilized with netting and boulders. I had an instant response as though I were buried in dirt, unable to breathe.

I used to think that perhaps I was afraid of being buried prematurely- who isn't- but if I were to explore into the dim past I might come up with a different explanation.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:28 PM

Hey, Lonesome EJ - you said:

"As I have said before,those who are sceptical would see Heaven and question their vision acuity..those who believe, see God in everything."

Lonesome, that is a magnificent statement! Bravo! I will happily shop at your Radio Shack any time.

(By the way, I got stuck with the "manager from hell" when I worked for Radio Shack, which jaundiced my view of the place. He was absolutely the worst manager I have ever seen on any job anywhere, although he was an incredible salesman...but an absolute @$$hole on a personal basis. Not only I, but every other employee he had quit over a period of about 3 months, until he was left in the store alone. Then the head office "kicked him upstairs", brought in a new manager and started over again from scratch. I have never seen a more spectacular example of the "Peter" Principle in action in my life. This guy was a walking, talking prick. He was amusing at times, though...in retrospect.)


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:32 PM

thanks for the false memory info. I think this research comes in particularly useful in cases when people claim to have memories of, say, satanic ritual abuse and use these memories to accuse well-meaning pagans of sacrificing babies and such...

I do not think all past-life regression experiences are authentic, given the power of suggestion and the human mind's malleability and suggestibility...

but I also believe in past lives. I have known since I was five years old that I was present during the witch trials, if not here, then in England. And I don't think I was a witch. I think I was doing the blaming and the burning. Explains a lot.

blessed be,

Peg


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:38 PM

Leej, not sure if I've had a chance to say "thanks" for often putting into words what I've been thinking. Hmmmm, also helps me keep my "PPD" (posts per day) lower. (although not in this case.)

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

Peg, it's a really scary thought to me of things I may have done in the past- I'm not sure I want to be aware of them all!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:15 PM

Well as a skeptic I am also interested in hearing what others have to say about their alleged past lives, so I hope to read more here. Being a skeptic doesn't interfere with that interest. I will also reserve the right of myself and others in a public forum to bring any and all questions about a topic into the discussion.

One thing that I found strange was that nobody challenged katlaughing's assertion that rape would be a common experience for women and that this statement should not be offensive to either men or women. Where does this impression come from? Rape has happened in the past and continues to happen in the present, but not all women are direct victims of it and neither are all men direct perpetrators of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:20 PM

I meant also to say that having watched The Matrix and the Thirteenth Storey this weekend I now feel qualified to suggest that we are all bits of a computer simulation. Lets hope no-one decides to pull the plug.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM

If you are going to attack me, again, sophocleese, at least get it right. I said,

"Just because of the way of the world and the history of women (no offense intended to you guys), I am sure rape is probably a fairly common experience from past lives, for those of us who believe in them."

I said nothing about "all women" being direct victims of it, nor "all men" being direct perpetrators of it.

You hope to read more about anyone's "alleged" past lives? Why on earth would anyone feel comfortable posting any more when there is sure to be an attack on their beliefs?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:31 PM

Rape, hell! How many times do you think decapitation has been exchanged amongst feisty little sojers with time on their hands? Running through the bowels with thick steel? Eyeballs burned out with pokers? Hands smashed with a marlinspike in the fist of some surly, rumsoaked mate? Deep lashes carved into your ribs and back by a psychotic overseer or boatswain, the cutting of steel and glass tips making you scream in your teeth? How about trials by fire, drowning, physical torture on racks, bamboo splinters, and screaming hand-tohand battles pike to pike until your very own skull goes rattling off among the horse's feet and the last sound you hear is a victor's battle cry from someone else? Make no mistake, we have a gory past and have played vewry fast and free with other people's lives and body parts over the centuries, overall; rape, while perhaps the most humiliating, is no where near the physical worst end of the spectrum.

Which makes it quite understandable why people sometimes prefer to remember nothing at all, or only royal experiences, or cutesy-pie overlays about a past life as a Leprechausn in Atlantis -- the hard facts would be nauseating if ever uncovered. Who wants to remember being a scullery slut, a dustman, or some knaves hapless bleeding victim left to rot on a high road in the back country on a cold autumn night for the sake of a pair of lousy half-crowns? No thanks -- I'll stick to the safe black wall of one lifetime only, thanks. At least I don't have to think about metaphysics that way!!!

Cheers,

Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 09:17 PM

Now we are talking Amos
If I looked at my past lives, I think you just listed my entire biography.
I would much rather not look at it, thank you very much but then again if I did, it offers me the key to my freedom that I am looking for.

Little Neo


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Subject: I remember remembering...
From: GUEST,"adam"
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM

I remember remembering a lot about my past lives. i remember knowing a lot, but i don't remember what I remembered. I do know I got the living hell beat out of me when I said I remembered. I was humiliated, ridiculed ,beaten and yelled at. By my parents when they found out I remembered from a past life. Of course I was yelled at when I couldn';t remember which was my left and right hand. Stupid imbecile, you don't have brain one, you don't use the brains God gave you, you weren't my child, I found you and I'm gonna give you back. You disgust me, you make me want to vomit. They picked on you at school? you probably deserved it you embarasing little worm.

sorry, I think anonymous is a good way to post this.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 01:43 AM

Guest Adam- You're the first person I have heard say what I have said for a long time. I too remember when I remembered more. I don't remember what it was but I remember almost consciously abandoning it because of ridicule from some older sisters. Ain't life grand??

Visualizing your early history makes one weep. I just can't imagine what makes some parents so non-cherishing. The only thing we can be sure of is that they had tremendous self-loathing. I can only wonder where that started.

Forgiveness, they say, is for one's own health, not for the one forgiven. May you live long and prosper!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:07 AM

To Ebbie and others:

'Does anyone have thoughts on past lives?' was the question at the start of this thread. Thoughts! What's wrong with doing a bit of thinking about stories for which one remotely possible interpretation is the recollection of previous lives, instead of staying in the belief mode of information processing.

Aren't you a bit intolerant towards other opinions?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM

I don't presume to know all the workings of the Universe -but I am open to just about any and all possibilities. I do not know about past lives but I certainly believe in the possibility.

A friend of mine has the Cutest Little Girl in The World, who is about three years old. We were at a living history thing at a local historic site, and I was on the porch playing my fiddle. This child said to me, "Have you seen my old brother? He plays the fiddle." I said, "Oh, your brother?" Meaning her older brother who was there with us.

"No," she said, "my OLD brother."

Her mother told me that she talks about her old mother, her old grandmother, etc., etc.

When I was a wee lassie I told people I was an Indian. My brother had several books about Indians and before I could read I looked at the pictures, thinking how familiar those people seemed.

I have always felt very old. In the past I have said about people who I thought were very immature or silly for their age, they haven't lived as many lives as I. Usually in jest, but only halfway.

When Mister and I got into Civil War reenacting I realized that when I had studied classical music, all my favorite composers were from the 19th century or before. I had no interest in 20th century composers at all. That could be just a matter of preference, but I thought it a little eerie, considering that I also love Victor Hugo and Charles Dickens.

I took to the violin like a duck to water. I am no expert - I have only been playing two years - but the first time I had the instrument in my hands it seemed terribly familiar, and the process of learning to play it has been more like re-learning something I already knew.

ONce I had a dream that I shot a red-coated soldier with a flintlock rifle at nearly point-blank range. That snippet is all I remember. I also once dreamed that I was being stabbed in the back, right in my kidneys. I could feel it. I have always been very careful with sharp objects. Then there was the time I dreamed I was in a concentration camp with my father, only it wasn't Me, and it wasn't My Father.

I don't know what it all means. Sometimes I wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM

Wolfgang, I didn't mean it mean-spiritedly. However, I would suggest that you start your own thread titled something like 'Debunking All Views Counter to Mine' or something like that. Too often your views- although they are articulate and informed- are predictable and non-insightful, and are perilously close to calling all other views not only ignorant but stupid. (Ignorant I can handle, stupid ain't funny!)

I would be interested in a thread where you stated your views and others joined in. But I'll betcha it won't be half the fun.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 03:09 PM

When I was young and in a very bad situation, I invented a world where I was going to be the Queen of a certain country, when I grew up and had learned the languages and customs of my people. I invented a whole sytem of religion based on magic, and when I found out about Wicca years later, it was amazingly similar. I had even invented a table of corespondences that was very similar to the ones I have learned since.

To the East lies the Sea, to the South, the Land of the Faerie Queen, to the West, home of the Elvish race, to the North, the Barbarians.

My land is in five parts, rocky boreal forests, thousands of islands in the coastal region, red-rock prairie/desert, deciduous forests, and arable farmland.

This imagined world became very real for me, and kept me going through the hatred I was subjected to at home and at school. At first, it was just a place where everything was beautiful, and I had enough to eat, and beautiful clothing and jewelry, and everyone loved me. But later, it took on a life of it's own. I learned the history of that world, and the histories of mankind in that world. Originally I was only interested in my own country, but later I became aware that there were other countries across the sea.

Maybe it is real somewhere, somewhen. Maybe not.

All I know is that if I had not had that refuge, I would have given up.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM

With respect Ebbie, I disagree with your view. You may find Wolfgang's post predictable and unwelcome but, judging from the response that he got, others found them refreshing and helpful. It was Little Hawk who suggested that there is something not right with people who don't believe in past lives. I find the automatic response of telling some people to stop posting simply because you disagree with what they say distasteful, rude and deeply offensive. I am reading this thread and welcome the thoughts and stories of all who are interested.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM

I don't think there's something "not right" with those people, Soph, it just kind of surprises me momentarily when I encounter it, that's all...because it seems so natural to me to have awareness of "past" lives in other times and places.

There have been numerous civilizations where everyone considered reincarnation a given, and I guess I am strongly tuned in to that view of things.

Democracy is a situation where we all have the right to be harmlessly crazy in our own particular way...and have fun doing it. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM

Sophocleese, I don't mean to be rude, deeply or otherwise offensive or distasteful. My point is that when a person's views on a thread contrary to their beliefs have been clearly stated, as the skeptics' have been, then iterating them again and again comes almost under the heading of flaming, IMO. Does anyone here really think that we have not read science's current views, that we are unfamiliar with all of the textbook arguments, that we are unaware that there are many people who believe only in the material?

If anyone reading this actually believes that, then their ignorance is showing.

I am merely suggesting that instead of wasting their clubbing on this dead horse (EWWWW, gross...), they should start a thread where others of like bent can lay it out for themselves. In this current thread, there is no way they are going to convince any of us, we, the experiencers-of-something-beyond that our experiences are the simple result of hallucination, suggestibility and old wive's tales. We should not have to repeatedly fight the same fight.

Just where is the harm in letting those who want to relate their beliefs and experiences without hindrance? And 'tain't polite, neither.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

hesperis,I am curious about your imaginary world.Perhaps you should write a novel,or at least some short stories that take place there.Can you tell us any more about it? Who else lives there?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM

But Ebbie your argument can be entirely and completely turned around from the other side. For example: why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people?

This thread began on Sept 30 and Wolfgang did not make his first, brief post until October 2. Maybe it was time for the thread to turn in another direction and people can discuss the possiblity that what they think of as past lives may be imprinted memories or some other phenomenon. You experience his comments as flaming and I see them as discussion. As I said in my previous post, his writing was not unwelcome to some people who are reading this thread. You can certainly say that you don't like what he writes but I still consider it rude to tell him and others who are sceptical not to write to a thread where everyone (not just those who believe) has been asked to post their thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:37 PM

Who has pronounced it dead?

But I do appreciate your tone.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:56 PM

I met you
Before the fall of Rome
And I begged you
To let me take you home

You were wrong
I was right
You said goodbye
I said goodnight

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

I knew you
Before the west was won
And I heard you say
The past was much more fun

You go your way
I'll go mine
But I'll see you next time

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

If I put my fingers here
And if I say "I love you, dear"
And if I play the same three chords
Will you just yawn and say

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

Alone and bored
On a thirtieth-century night.
Will I see you
On The Price Is Right?
Will I cry?
Will I smile?
As you run
Down the aisle.

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before...

--BNL


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that there may be a scientific explanation for their experiences of something beyond?
I would think that they would welcome a clear and concise explanation of what must, at times, be a troubling and frightful experience. If past lives COULD be proven scientifically, the benefits could be tremendous. We could learn to reliably tap into the knowledge those lives contained and the answers to many age-old questions would be revealed.
But I fear this will never be since most reincarnation believers seem to prefer NOT to know why as witness some of the reactions to Wolfgangs post. *sigh*

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM

The belief in reincarnation has been conclusively disproven? WOW!!! Dang!!! How?

I will place a hundred dollars in the mail to the author of so conclusive a proof, if it is so well written that there are no flawed assumptions or logical fallacies or violation of data integrity in it.

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ely
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 11:03 PM

Where was it clearly disproved? By the repressed memories people? By the people who acknowledge that the brain stores a lot of stuff on the sly that comes back to us later? There are lots of explanations but I don't think they completely exclude the possibility of past lives.

I don't even know if I believe in past lives myself. I started this thread because I cannot explain those things about myself and wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con. I am the daughter of two scientists and have a pretty decent scientific background myself. The paranormal is my last explanation for odd occurrances (nothing against the paranormal, I just don't work that way). But science admittedly doesn't know everything, either. If there are scientists who can reconcile it with God and nobody seems to be questioning the validity of their scientific work, why can't there be scientific people who aren't completely skeptical about reincarnation (or ghosts, or whatever)?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM

Skeptics, would you crash a party of born-again Chtistians and buttonhole each guest to argue your case against God, the Bible, etc.? Or attend a Hindu vegetarian feast to tout the joys of meat-eating? Seems kind of like responding to a bodhran, banjo or accordion thread simply to post reasons why you don't like those instruments. I'm with Ebbie. Perhaps we should take a poll (via a thread of its own) on how we all feel about this. Unlike certain religious groups, those who are aware of their own past life connections do not, as a rule, attempt to proselytize or convert anyone to their beliefs. They just find it enjoyable and refreshing to be able to share their experiences with like-minded people. Within the past one hundred years, the wonderful world of science has "proven" that gorillas do not exist, that "hysterical" women are better off without their ovaries, and that "caucasian" brains are superior to "negroid" brains. 'Nuff said?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:37 AM

The Harplist has recently had a spate of stories about people appoaching harpists and telling them about their past lives, etc. Most of the stories do tend to relate to Renaissance faires.

I tried to do a past life regression several years ago, and when while I was in trance, the hypnotist asked if it was ok to go past my birth, I said no. I often wonder if my past lives aren't particulary useful to me in this life on a concious level.

Mimosa


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:57 AM

Good point there BigDaddyO
I have not shared much about what I sense from my previous lives. I think about those lives but I would only discuss something like that where I feel completely comfortable. This thread is not one of those places.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM

The original posting said, and I quote,"Does anyone have thoughts on past lives." To me, this means a discussion of experience and belief, NOT a one-sided love-fest of the "I was a Celtic Princess" variety. If your belief in reincarnation can't stand a little questioning and skepticism, go start a thread of your own.This thread called for discussion.'Nuff said.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM

How about this, a thread titled 'Wanted, Past Life Experiences', would that have made a difference?
Maybe I should start a thread 'Wanted, Near Death Experiences', thats a pretty good topic too.
But at the same time I would start another thread 'What Are Your Thoughts on Near Death Experiences?'
Would that then make everybody happy?
I don't think you can ever make everybody happy.
I learned that lesson in my past life when I was Queen Sheba.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM

You were the Queen of Sheba? I've got a cousin who claims to have been a teapot but he's a little strange.*BG*

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 09:58 AM

Thank you, Big Daddy. It's what I've been thinking but been unable to articulate. It feels as uncomfortable as LilNeo indicated.

Anyone seen my tiara?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM

Well, if we're taking science, let's talk science (for a momen or two). A fair discussion of the pros and cons would require that everyone concerned read Dr.Ian Stephenson's masterly treatise, [I'll try to get the title right], "An Investigation of Some Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations." That's for starters.

But the book is almost two inches thick and very very expensive, so we're not going to do that, are we? And, it doesn't prove anything! -- It just proves that of about 21 Indian (in India) children who claimed to remember a past life, about 12 or 15, (I don't remember the number and it isn't really important), remembered being a specific, verifiable individual who was separated from them by distance, language, customs, etc, and they could relate very specific details of that person's life history. And when Dr. Stephenson checked it out, he found that there had been such a person and many of the details checked.

This doesn't prove anything! -- But it is an example of investigating rather than spouting off.... False memories during hypnosis don't prove that all "other-life" memories are false, either. But it's worth knowing about, and as long as you remember that it's a valid consideration, it doesn't have to feel like an attack on one's beliefs.... It can only be threatening if you let it.

To my knowledge, Dr. Stephenson did not make a case for reincarnation as an interpretation of his findings. He just investigated the cases, very, very thoroughly.

Now, I don't think Dr. Stephenson "proved" anything. I'm just saying that there are layers and layers of evidence, interesting personal experiences, arguments, religious beliefs, scientific investigations, "I want to believe"'s and "I don't want to believe"'s out there and that an argument over "does it happen" or "Doesn't it happen" is pretty well doomed not to take them all into account.

So, those of us who find it interesting and worth thinking about, may have run across some of the more convincing stuff, including personal subjective experience; or may just have a temperament that finds it interesting.

I too have had experiences that I don't want to share here. They didn't prove anything, even to me. But they opened a glimpse of a cosmos that may be more subtle, complex and rewarding than it seems on the face of it in today's world.

I would like that, if it turns out to be true.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM

Sorry. I lost it there for a few minutes. You see, I found this old soapbox in the basement and I couldn't resist just climbing up on it and...


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM

I wish I did remember something, because I think it would be fascinating to have that personal memory of another time and place. But maybe I don't need to remember or want to remember, etc...

LEJ - Thanks for your interest in my world. I have several times tried to write about it, but writing to me is something equivalent to sweating blood, and I just can't keep the momentum up at this time in my life. I have, however, written(/translated) a few songs from the history of that world. I need to edit and write them down and arange them and record them.

I have three good ballads in various states of completion. And more on the way.

There were a few interesting instruments, too. One was similar to the viol family, made out of a sort of eelskin, wood, horn and eelgut, and it actually incorporated water into the resonator chamber in some way. It was invented by the Mòrlain race, who are amphibious. The giant eels were their prey and their enemies. I should learn something about making instruments, and see if I can create some of them.

~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wavestar
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM

I'm just curious, but riddle me this. Modern science and its proponents admit frequently, and take great delight in saying, "There is so much we haven't seen yet! So much we have yet to explore!" And yet, these same proponents see NOTHING contradictory in saying, "This has been conclusively disproven, because as far as we can see, there's no evidence for it, and it can't be explained, so that's evidence against it!" I've heard it, over and over. How hard is it to think, JUST MAYBE, that these things you can't explain, these things you don't understand, may fall into the category of things science hasn't figured out just yet?

So much of what was once considered clearly myth by the most scientific and rational of minds has now been re-examined, understood, and accepted. Why must we all persist in this pig-headed approach that says, "It's NOT true!" when for all you know, it could be, and if the all-god 'science' explains it tomorrow, you'll turn around and say it is? Please, everyone can learn to accept that no one knows everything. And just remember, there's always more out there for us to find...

-Jessica

PS. That said, I won't say I believe in past lives - but I won't say I don't, and I won't say it hasn't occured to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM

Umm, I must hasten to say that in my post where I said "why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people?" I said "for example" in front of it. My point, however clumsily expressed, was that Ebbie's arguments in favour of silencing sceptics in this thread were heavily biased, and it would be equally offensive of the sceptics to say the same things about the non-sceptics. However I also screwed up with the phrase "keeping beating", sorry, I'll try to proofread next time.

One of the pitfalls in a discussion like this is that of falling into sides, believer vs non-believer, if you're not for me you're against me. There may be some people who think in terms like that but I think many of us in this thread are a little less absolute and are curious. The more information I read, results of experiments and personal experiences, the more I start to question what I had thought before.

For those who feel that the prescence of a sceptic or two on an open thread asking for thoughts on past lives is hurtful to them, think for a minute about the hurt you inflict when you tell intelligent, questioning people to shut up because you don't agree with them. Contrary to popular belief sceptics and scientists are people too and have feelings and sensitivities that can be wounded as easily as those of devout believers.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wavestar
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:52 PM

Sophocleese, I just wanted to assure you that I didn't honestly think you were saying that, your phrasing made it clear that this was a "whatif". My question was rhetorical, and I realise that my language might have been insulting. I'm sorry if it was. I do mean what I said, but as you say, the invitation was for discussion. Unfortunately, I think Ebbie's side feels that often 'discussion' from sceptics involves believers being referred to as stupid, gullible, etc, which is often true and always regrettable.

-J


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:03 PM

I once went out for lunch with a good friend of mine. At the time we were both working as clinical dietitians in the same hospital. I told my friend Veronica about this tingling I get at the tip of my nose when someone is thinking about me. She say "Bonnie, go get a blood test! I think you may have a B12 deficiency".
I said, "Thanks Veronica, never thought of that"
I knew I did not have a B12 deficiency. I didn't feel hurt by her not believing in what was going on with me either. I just knew Veronica and I have a very different way of looking at things.
Thats okay

LN


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Bearheart
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:45 PM

Hi Guys, Been busy tese last two weeks teaching a healing intensive, but missing mudcat friends I managed to get a few moments and this thread was first up. Seemed significant...

I have done several past life regressions over the years, and had some interesting experiences with them, but the most notable was this one:

My husband (an anthropologist and scientist by training) and I met in the spring of 1980. He had been exploring shamanism and other alternative ways of looking at the world, and a mutual friend introduced us. It happened that she did past life regression work, sound healing and some other stuff. We felt an immediate attraction and connection, and about 2 months after we met she offered to lend us a tape she had put together for couples to do hypnotic regression to a common past life. It worked just like the regular kind-- a hypnotic suggestion to guide the process-- but we linked hands while doing it. In this style of regression you do it all while in deep hypnotic trance so the individual(s) are not dialoging at all with the guide. In fact she wasn't even present. We were both in the hypnotic state simultaneously, for about 30 minutes, having our private experiences. The suggestion was to remember a lifetime we had had together.

When we came up out of the hypnotic state we began to share our experiences. We found that our experiences under hypnosis were identical. We were literally finishing each other's sentences. I won't go into all the details, as it is rather private, but we both "remembered' a life time in classical Greece. The life circumstances we recalled individually, including our genders, occupations, social status etc, all agreed.

While my husband is quite open-minded, he was also really sceptical about reincarnation. He mostly went through this to please me (we were courting at the time, remember!) but was rather shaken by the experience. I just figure it's another of those mysteries of nature we don't yet have answers/explanations for yet.

Knowledge is an evolutionary process, and we are after all only human. There are limits to what we can measure and quantify. Of course it interesting that tribal people have had access to knowledge though their spiritual practices, some of which is now being verified by science. Our culture often discounts ancient knowledge as superstition; it only respects the new, the scientific. It's rather the same thing as disrespecting old people, or aboriginal cultures, as if they have nothing to offer us. As if somehow they are the way they are out of ignorance or unwillingness to learn. Perhaps they know something we don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST,Methuselah Discarnate
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:20 PM

The issue of reincarnation is really just the symptomatic surface of a deeper issue.

A great deal of agreement and momentum has accrued in Western thought built on a fundamental belief that the existence of a human being is defined by the scale and scope of the human body. With this point of departure, psychology becames a branch of neurology, and the Skinners and Cricks of the world can rest easy knowing only the physically measurable need apply for reflection and analysis.

If a single case of a remembering self is found which stands up against analysis as demonstrating a transition from onle lifetie to the next, as in the cases cited in Stephensen above, then a serious creaking and shifting starts up in consequence. IF a remembering self transitions across the lifetime boundary intact, then it is clear the seat of that recollection is not the body; and possibly, not even a physical time-frame element at all (I suppose you could argue for a soliton of high-frequency RF but it is not consisten with the consciousness involved). This possibility means that a person who is identified with a near-term genetic structure (I am the son of Bill and Emma Codwallop) or the current body itself (I AM a brunette with long feet) is going to have some shaking down to do in coming to terms with what they might really be if these safe assumptions are not true.

If the nature of our kind is NOT defined by the body....then what is it?

This question is so much work, and so unsettling to some people that it is understandable they would "rather err with Galen than be right with Harvey" as one scholar in London put it about a similar paradigm problem in the 17th century.

M.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:22 AM

Wow -- another bloody pedant!!! Dang!!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM

Ely, thanks for stating clearly that you wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con in this thread. That's how at least I had read you. Why is it always the credulists who say that they don't want to hear any more arguments from the other side? I haven't yet read such an argumentation from sceptics in these threads.

BigDaddy, I assume for a moment that your first two questions were meant serious and you are waiting for a response. My response to both questions is, no, I wouldn't. For the very same reasons for which I do not write anything in the healing threads nor do comment upon statements of (mostly Christian) faith by Mudcatters. I have a high respect for these and other faiths and I'd never even discuss them unless explicitly invited. If anybody says "I believe in God" ,or "I believe, for Jesus has saved my life", or "I believe in God, for he has created the world and holds us all in his arms", I'd listen with respect and silence. If, however, I'd hear "I believe in God, for I have witnessed the wonders in Lourdes" or "I believe in God, since studies have shown that those who are prayed for even if they don't know about the prayers are healed faster", I'd feel free to comment upon weaknesses of these studies or upon alternative explanation for medical wonders. What's the difference? I do not attack the faith here, I attack one argument or one reason given for a faith. And since all faiths (similar to political convictions) are based upon a whole bundle of arguments and feelings, even the total destroying of a single argument would (and should, I add) never weaken a basic faith. Even if I happen to have the same conviction as another person I still can attack a particular argument she offers for that conviction. I consider it sloppy thinking not to see this difference. Imagine for a moment I could convince you that all past life memories are inventions (and Ferrara has pointed out correctly that the proof that there are false memories generated under hypnosis is not a proof that all memories generated this way are imaginations), would that mean you have to stop believing in reincarnation? Not at all. We all could as well be reincarnations of previous lives but without memories of them. My aim is just that alternative interpretations for experiences get a hearing as well, that's how I understand open-mindedness.

If I had tried to attack reincarnation more directly and not just arguments for it I would have made it this way: (warning; believers in reincarnation might find the next paragraph offending and may want to skip it) The death age distribution in remembered past lives is all wrong. We know fairly well at which ages the people died in past centuries. E.g., up to one third of them before the second birthday. The death age distributions in remembered past lives do not match the real distributions. The distributions of professions is all wrong (not enough peasants and farmers; but too many maids; too many persons close to known persons); it doesn't match the actual distribution of professions in the respective times, but it is a fairly close match to the distribution of professions in today's fictional literature about past ages. Too many people today were in former lives the queen of Sheba or some other known person (but perhaps souls can split in later lives). There are fairly good guesses as to the total number of humans that have lived altogether on earth and that live today. In combination with the average amount of previous reincarnations reported or postulated per person living today, the mathematical fit of the relevant numbers is close to impossible (unless, of course, you allow for soul splitting again; or, that only those believing in reincarnation are reincarnations). end of offending paragraph

Ebbie, what you write about my motives for my posts when you say I would suggest that you start your own thread titled something like 'Debunking All Views Counter to Mine' is offending and mean.

Ferrara, I guess you mean Ian Stevenson (not: Stephensen; sorry for correcting the spelling, but he'll be easier to find this way). He definitely should not passed over when it comes to xenoglossy or reincarnation. I can't locate the title you have given, but in his book 'Children who remember previous lives' the same few cases are reported. Who wants to read a much shorter version could look into the Proceedings of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1974, 31, for his review of xenoglossy. But who wants to have a more complete picture might also want to read why critics have been far from convinced by Stevenson's data: S.G. Thomason, in: American Speech, 1984, 59, 340-359 Wilson, Mind out of time, Doubleday, 1981

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM

This is really 2 distinct threads in one:

1. Stories about memories (or memory-like mental movements, to allow for the skeptical possibility) attributed to past lives

2. Arguing about whether skepticism should be expressed, and how, and whether various posts in this thread are or are not appropriate, etc.

I like the first thread far better. It's interesting an da little eerie. I had more than enough aimless arguing with my first wife.

But what do I know? I drink White Zinfandel.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:57 PM

Wolfgang thank you very much for that posting. It was informative and it also does help me better understand where you are coming from.

Alex I never realized Zinfandel came in white. It is amazing the things I am learning in this lifetime.

I know guys, how about those of us who want to debate this topic go to the Hearme Song Circle room and those who want to tell their past life experiences go to the Hearme Concert room.
We could schedule a date and time and then have all this conversing going on at once. Transending from room to room if we choose.

The Real Queen of Sheba


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM

Actually it's a blush/rosé. Some labels make a very bland version (Sutter Home, Beringer). Others do a better job. (Turning Leaf is my fave.) Real wine snobs say disparaging things like it's not really wine at all.

But I don't drink wine to be liked, I drink wine I like.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM

To Wolfgang, Sophocleese and everyone else I offended: I apologize. I truly did not wish to offend and obviously I did. I got a tad carried away. I appreciate that your tone(s) have stayed courteous throughout.

I was trying to make a point. It may be that my desire for a relaxed interchange of views and experiences was at fault- perhaps that kind of thing is not possible in a public forum. But ah, it was fun while it lasted. And I wish it were possible.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM

I think that reincarnation is simply one of those things that is beyond our current scope of understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:13 PM

I have had this thought more than once, and it seems to be at least tangentially related to the theory expressed above about death ratios and how so many past life experiences are not mathematically possible, etc, so allow me to express it here...

I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread that I believe one of my past lives saw some involvement in the medieval or perhaps Colonial witch trials. Since my initial assumption after having these impressions was that, of course! I must have been a witch, a martyr, a misunderstood village healer murdered by my vigilante neighbors!, it did not occur to me until years later, having met a lot more modern witches who also profess to have been persecuted witches in past lives, that I may be, ahem, wrong...

My persistent and often vivid memories and impressions (if indeed they are of past lives and not merely my own quite facile imagination) may not have been those of the victims; they may have been induced by guilt and vicarious horror experienced by those who did the actual accusing, torturing, hanging, burning, raping, etc.

This would make greater karmic sense, too, at least in my case since I am an activist with a group that helps people of alternative religious beliefs fight discrimination...it is said that we are given the lessons we most need to learn in this life to move forward. For example, a ruthless warrior of many lifetimes will enter an incarnation where he/she will repeatedly encounter anger and aggression and must learn to channel it appropriately.

Since most cultures do not currently parctice the old-fashioned, ritualized manner of human sacrfice, it can be argued that we still do practice huamn sacrifice on our streets and in our homes, that it is simply devoid of ritual significance or purpose...that in our mindless violence we are not appeasing the gods, but something in ourselves, we know not what...

(There is an interesting theory that many contemporary victims of childhood sexual abuse are in fact on this "warrrior path" and their healing is directly tied to their ability to overcome directionless anger...)

Stay with me, now...

So, after reading this thread the last few days, I have had the following thought as well:

That the reason there are so many people claiming to have been Cleopatra or Shakespeare or Catherine the Great or Crispus Attucks or the Marquis de Sade or King Arthur (I met one such in the UK and he is a true nutter and a lot of fun), is that, in the past as today, cults of celebrity are built up around heroic or charismatic personages.

Just think of all the songs and poems dedicated to Bonny Prince Charlie, such that he is a mythic figure not just in Scotland but also in Ireland...

Just as your average person in America knows way more than they should about Madonna's sex life (okay, we can blame her for that) or Robert Downey Jr's drug problem, so, too, people in earlier eras must have identified with their heroes and heroines. Except that, minus TV and the Internet and CDs and tabloids, this form of worship did in fact take the form of a more personalized, cult-like devotion: songs, poems, ballads, legends, myths...such that, even as we sing before the mirror into our hairbrush and dance about in our underwear pretending, perhaps, to be Madonna for a few minutes...our ancestors had similar fantasies and vicarious thoughts about their celebrities...

So, when in fact we think we are a reincarnation of Tutenkamen or Isodora Duncan or Nijinsky or Confucius or Aristotle, what we may not realize is, we are a reincarnation of one of their groupies or sycophants...

thoughts???


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:19 PM

I'm also one of those folks who seem older than I actually am.....there is a dream I have every once in a while and it remains unchanged....in it I am wearing grey and end up dying...I firmly believe in reincarnation and that we live through out the ages learning through each life, until we can learn no more....

Amergin


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM

Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit.
Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian.
Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player.

Is that kind of what you mean?

The Real Queen of Sheba


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM

Lil neo wrote:

Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit. --or as a witch threatened with burning...

Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian. --or as a chicken in a battery cage on a factory farm...

Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player. --um...no. I think my point was that we may reincarnate in a position where we learn the error of our previous lives by having to experience hardships and challenges designed to illuminate past mistakes...

Your interpretation of this is neat, though; that we would come back, as it were, as someone inclined to redress these wrongs...I'll bet that happens, too (as often as any of this does) but karma strikes me as a thing that prefers to deliver difficult lessons over easy ones...

peg

Is that kind of what you mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Fortunato
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:55 PM

Methusalah discarnate. You do describe a fundamental issue at the crossroads of the sacred and the profane. Yet as a species we embrace the concept of a discorporate nature for our being at every opportunity. The spiritual foundation of our cultures, primitive or otherwise, rests squarely upon a belief that we are more than flesh and bone. Lines are drawn by differences in these beliefs. For example, Judeo-Christians are happy with the concept of being reborn in heaven, to spend eternity as a spirit in heaven, but find ridiculous being reborn here.

There's no beer in heaven, my children. chance


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: flattop
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM

Can one be sceptical about sceptics having feelings and sensitivities? Is that ok on a weirdness thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:22 PM

I think it is ok, flattop, for I don't think it has ever been proven that sceptics have feelings....


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

Well I believe that they do, so please try not to tell me they don't. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

I think if you will look at last year's volume of The Journal of Emotional Investigations (I think number 2 or 3; don't have them here with me as I'm at work), you'll see that there have been many studies done on the question of skeptics' emotions, some of which appear to show that they DO have emotions, and some of which appear to show the opposite. The writer of the review study, I think a Dr. Pfeffernuesse, said something along the lines of "I rather doubt that they do, they probably don't, and it really bums me out." The editors of the journal point out that Dr. P. (a world-famous skeptic and poo-poo-er of UFO's) takes antidepressants, and considers Bob Dylan to be "real folk music."

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM

I love the Mudcat. The things you learn -- I never knew before that there's a good brand of white zinfandel! -- I thought Sutter Home was pretty good for the first year or two and then they started making it with ditch water....

Yeah, Wolfgang, it's Ian Stevenson. (My rotten memory strikes again.) As far as criticisms and rebuttals of his investigations, I decided years ago that the book was too expensive and reading it was too much like work, and sorting through critiques and rebuttals would be very, very much too much work; and none of it could prove the unproveable anyway. So I decided to let somebody else figure out whether reincarnation is a "fact." It doesn't make any operational difference in my life either way.

Good post, by the way.

The thing I do believe in, because it's trustworthy, is my "radar." This is a set of feeling-tones that occasionally lead me to take an action that common sense says is a mistake, because an inner feeling says it's a great thing to do and will turn out well; or, vice versa, not to do something that looks fine on the surface.

When I say I believe in this radar, I mean it usually guides me well. It's worth paying attention to.

Again, sometime in the 70's I decided I didn't care whether I was experiencing some kind of psychic whatsis, or just doing what I wanted to do but couldn't justify otherwise. If I follow those feelings (they have a certain tone, not all feelings seem to be "radar"), it usually turns out well. So I don't care if they're my unconscious mind's summing up of the situation, or a psychic insight, or a little green angel whispering in my ear. It just works better to listen than not. Usually.

.... To be honest, deep down I suspect strongly that they're some form of psychic insight.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:53 AM

Wolfgang, probably the only thing we're going to agree upon is that we disagree. I understand what you are saying, but am put off by your need/desire to "attack" (your word) a belief that harms no one, provides comfort and reassurance to many, and is shared by a large number of people the world over. I share similar misgivings over a number of religions/spiritual beliefs, but don't feel it's my job to correct them (or "attack" them). What we're discussing here is not an organized religion but rather a spiritual belief. I don't expect my spirituality to confirm or negate true science; nor do I look to science for confirmation (or negation) of my spirituality. I have the same (emotional) response when I encounter someone using science to "attack" a spiritual matter as I do if I hear someone using a religious belief to question science. There is an "apples and oranges" thing going on here. I feel as if I ventured out of doors on a clear northern night with friends to watch the northern lights and view the milky way and constellations; when along comes a group of people who want to explain to us the scientific workings of each of these phenomenons. My friends and I just wanted to watch in wonder and "ooh and ahh." I should add that here in the actual world I have friends at both ends of the spectrum, and scattered along in between. With some friends I greatly enjoy discussions of spirituality as well as many other things. With others I discuss just about everything but spiritual matters because we know we don't have a common ground there. It doesn't prevent us from sharing love and respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lena
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:37 AM

I've no reason why I shouldn't believe in past lives.It's difficult,too difficult to grow up in old Florence and not to.I had for a while a funny 'relationship'with the medieval lady I owe my name to(Annalena di Malatesta).My mother,in turning catholic,had to deny any possible belief in past lives,or ghosts.The Vatican firmly commands so.So,when she suddenly stopped going to pray in her favourite convent,I was amazed and asked her why.I found out that that convent was an 'old'infested house and it was arranged as a convent because someone thought that nuns were the right people to get rid of the matter.Problem was,every time at a certain hour my mother,kneeled down in payer,would see always the same 'ghost'doing always the same thing for a couple of seconds,and then go.For the way we are in the family,we would have found it perfectly normal.But it clashed with her being a catholic,and not seeing the thing anymore was her only right way for her to overcome the 'sin' of seeing them.It's also normal for many cultures that the soul of a dying relative goes to visit all his family one by one before parting.It happened to friends,it happened to me.When my granfather(very young and healthy)died,I felt it.I was ten.Two days after it,mum approached me to finally tell me.I anticipated her,saying quietly"I know,Grandfather is dead".And for the first days I didn't cry or stuff,because that quiet awareness stayed with me. I have a dear,dear friend I grew up with.Two years ago she had pneumonia,and started dreaming her daughter.She told me peacefully the thing,and I couldn't get it.She doesn't have a daughter,of course.She replied that she'll have her one day.She described her features,her name and the fact that she would come in the early morning,sit at the end of the bed and stare at her for a while,and then go.Knowing the person,you'd believe her...


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM

Wolfgang is not attacking the belief, he's attacking the way we are expressing that belief here, if it's sloppy logic. He sounds quite reasonable to me.

I do believe in past lives..... just so you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM

It's time to relaunch this thread. Go to Past Lives/Weirdness, Part II


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM

To the believers

An alternate explaination of why there can be 10 people who are reincarnations of the Queen of Sheba (or other famous figures) running around at the same time presents itself: Multiple Personality Disorder (The original historical figures, I mean)

As to whether skeptics have emotions, don't be silly. With all the great advances in psychopharmacology we've dispensed with usless things like emotions. Ego is next. And just wait till you see what we have planned once the human genome mapping project is done.

To Wolfgang and other interested parties,

If you haven't already been to it, the Committe for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (www.csicop.org)is a great resource. The January 1999 issue of their publication had a grat review of Paul Edwards book "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" that is an excellent overview of the subject, ranging from the spiritual basis to review of scientific (and pseudoscientific) inquiries on the subject.

The following is me on my Soapbox: I believe in things that cannot be proved and probably are not provable in any scientific or even rational sense. Scientifically, ESP has yet to be proven (although the Ganz field experipenst in the mid 90's showed some promise). Believing in ESP, however, is a lot more fun than not believing. But come the day I need paramedics, I'll rely on ATT and 911, thank you) I was really pissed off when I learned that it looks like Rhine faked his results.

Belief in reincarnation is undoubtly comforting. It helps people cope with and explain their world. It can also (as several studies of Hindu society have argued(sorry,no citation it was in college a long, long time ago)) serves to maintain the status quo and makes people happy with their lot in life and keeps social unrest at a minimum. Its the "You will eat, by and by, in that glorious land in the sky..." effect.

Using anecdotal evidence to validate a belief like reincarnation can be fairly innocuous. It can be comforting. But the same argument can be made for a lot of beliefs and "isms" that aren't all that harmless. If we argue that belief systems and the scientific method result in equal validation of ideas, I get concerned for where that type of system of thinking can lead. Has lead, come to that.

BTW In my past I was a believer. I have done past life regressions and free association and all the other recovery techniques. Lots of fun.

(I apologize in advance for the following)I once believed I was, among other things, a hunter/trapper in pre-roman England. That was during my mis-spentyouth in the 60's. Although come to think of it, I remeber the hunter/trapper part a lot more clearly than most of the '60s

John


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:41 PM

Re The last post from "guest:.Twas I. Out surfing on a new computer and didn't remember to log in.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

There is a fairly simple mechanism in the way the human mind deals with certain extremes of experience in which one's own persona seems untenable, because it has failed, or is being badly overwhelmed by someone else, and that is to take on a more successful peronality. This is emotionally kind of unhealthy in the long run but it provides a way out in the short term. And very often what happens is one takes up a winning personality of which one has some impressions from recent experience -- such as a violent father, or, just as easily, a dominant leader.

This leads to all kinds of personal problems, so it is not a recommended solution to stress, but it is a pretty basic impulse when things get unbearable. And I propose that it is not uncommon for someone delving in to the subject of past identities to not want to get too close to those that were highly painful (the peons, foot-soldiers, starving children and battered women, whipped slaves and disemboweled bystanders). It would seem natural to come up with a more tolerable overlay.

But this tendency no more invalidates the premise of past lives than the complexities of of molecular motion invalidates the theories of thermal energy transfer. You just gotta take the variables into account.

There are some people -- usually the young and creative of any age -- to whom the alternative proposition -- that they are solely composed of molecules and electronic surges, with no true qualitative difference to account for their awareness, intuition, ability to understand and sense of viewpoint, none of which seems explainable by molecular theory -- is the most ridiculous and superstitious proposition that could possibly be entertained by anyone with half a heart. It is unfortunate how strong our culture bends in the direction of that class of explanation, though.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM

You can find a continuation of this thread HERE.


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