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BS: Does CELTIC music exist???

barrygeo 31 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM
Jed at Work 31 Jul 00 - 11:06 AM
Wesley S 31 Jul 00 - 11:55 AM
Shanti 31 Jul 00 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,John Leeder 31 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM
SeanM 31 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Banjo Johnny 31 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 31 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM
Sorcha 31 Jul 00 - 12:31 PM
Jed at Work 31 Jul 00 - 12:34 PM
Áine 31 Jul 00 - 12:58 PM
Jeri 31 Jul 00 - 01:02 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 31 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM
Whistle Stop 31 Jul 00 - 01:13 PM
Clinton Hammond2 31 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 31 Jul 00 - 01:47 PM
Jeri 31 Jul 00 - 01:53 PM
Clinton Hammond2 31 Jul 00 - 02:04 PM
Jeri 31 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM
Charcloth 31 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM
Mbo 31 Jul 00 - 10:07 PM
Lepus Rex 31 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM
Nicole Leonard 01 Aug 00 - 05:42 AM
keltcgrasshoppper 01 Aug 00 - 07:17 AM
Lena 01 Aug 00 - 07:19 AM
Mooh 01 Aug 00 - 07:49 AM
barrygeo 01 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM
Wolfgang 01 Aug 00 - 09:35 AM
Mbo 01 Aug 00 - 09:46 AM
Áine 01 Aug 00 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,John Leeder 01 Aug 00 - 12:35 PM
Mbo 01 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM
Áine 01 Aug 00 - 12:42 PM
Clinton Hammond2 01 Aug 00 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter 01 Aug 00 - 10:17 PM
hrodelbert 02 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM
CarolC 02 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM
Mbo 02 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM
CarolC 02 Aug 00 - 12:27 AM
CarolC 06 Aug 00 - 11:56 PM
Alice 03 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM
bill\sables 03 Feb 01 - 12:54 PM
Alice 03 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,MacTattie 04 Feb 01 - 07:44 AM
death by whisky 04 Feb 01 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,petr 06 Feb 01 - 08:56 PM
Auxiris 07 Feb 01 - 09:03 AM
GUEST 07 Feb 01 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 07 Feb 01 - 06:14 PM
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Subject: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: barrygeo
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM

I'm not sure if the term Celtic music is a good idea. Can you lump all the music from the 'celtic' countries into a broad category like this or is it simply a huge marketing ploy. What constitutes Celtic Music???? Do the Corrs play celtic music??? Is Enya's music part of this category??? If the Chieftains play music with The Rolling Stones or with Chinese Trad musicians is this celtic music???


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Jed at Work
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:06 AM

hmmm, good question, but I'm not sure I'd call it a BS thread. To quote a great Celtci Music website (Ceolas).

"The term 'celtic music' is a rather loose one; for the purpose of Ceolas, it covers the traditional music of the celtic countries - Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany (in France), Galicia (in Spain) and areas which have come under their influence, such as the US and the maritime provinces of Canada, as well as some newer music based on the tradition from these countries. "

I would argue that the term Celtic Music can be generally applied to describe folk and modern songs emerging from Celtic cultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:55 AM

I don't mind having some seperation of styles when I get into a record store. If they lumped ALL music together I would need to hunt through a lot of jazz or rock selections in order to find the "celtic" music I'm after. I tend to buy music in cycles and currently it's celtic. In a couple of months I might be in the mood to buy blues or cuban music. Then I'll be able to look up those sections. It's not totally a bad thing. You can't lump all music together and expect your customer to wade through all of it to find what they want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Shanti
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:12 PM

Agree with Jed. The term Celtic does cover a broad range of music, but that's only because the people from the Celtic countries have been dispersed, mostly without a choice, to other areas of the globe. They've therefore had an influence on every English speaking country. As for performers like Enya, who started with CLANNAD (her brothers and sister), her roots are certainly Celtic and the flavor of it is still there...though she's usually lumped in that nebulous category called "New Age."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM

People who think of themselves as "Celtic" musicians also play music originating in areas like England, Central France and Shetland, where there's little Celtic heritage, and North America, where there is a Celtic heritage but it's diluted with other cultures. The term is approaching meaninglessness -- it now means something like "music that people who like Scottish and Irish traditional music also like". It's becoming no more than a convenient label for record stores to use -- but the same thing happened to the term "folk music", didn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: SeanM
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

I've always rather liked one person I've spoken to who played music that was (against his will) being labled as Celtic music... "Go find me a real live Celt, and we'll ask him. Until then, I play Scottish traditional fiddle."

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM

For some reason, it's pronounced Keltic, except in Boston, where it's Seltic. Go figure ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

Right John, I couldn't agree with you more. Perhaps Celticish would suffice. Its gotten away from us though, and there may not be anything we can do about it except by being as true as we can to the spirit in Celtic Roots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:31 PM

I guess Officially, we could call music from the Steppes of Aisa "Celtic" too, scholars seem to think that is where the Celts came from.........but I tend to agree with Jed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Jed at Work
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:34 PM

Good comments here ... I believe that the very loose definition of Celtic music is a bit frustrating. I think of traditional Celtic music, when I firts think of Celtic - but I have been told that pub songs and others belong to the Celtic genre, as well - and, as Cleolas says above; those Celtic folks who have had an influence on the folks music developed in Canda and the US, as well shoudl be included ... if all of these styles belong to the supercategory of Celtic, then we need the additional modifers; Trad Celtic, New Age/Celtic, and others. I am frequently described by others as a Celtic performer, but would describe my style as American folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Áine
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:58 PM

I do hope Kevin won't mind me using his words; but, I think McGrath of Harlow answered this question in this thread back in May:

There's Gaelic music, which hails from Scotland and Ireland and the Isle of Man and has a fair number of things in common musically; then there are other types of Scottish Music and Irish Music, which are not Gaelic.

And there's music from Britanny; and music from Wales, where the language is pretty similar, but the cultures and the music have very little in common. And there's music from Cornwall, where the old language was similar again, but the culture has very little,in common with either Britanny or Wales. And down in Spain there is Galicia where they speak Spanish, but the people may have spoken some kind of Gaelic related language.

The point I'm making "Celtic" music as such, in the sense of a common heritage and tradition stretching over all theese countries, doesn't really exist. What there is is a bunch of very different traditions with some great music, and it's always good to exchange ideas and tunes and such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:02 PM

Traditional music from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, is often included in the term "Celtic Music" these days. Someone in a newsgroup once observed that the dance music there may be less changed from the original Scots music than in many other places. Some people mistakenly think "Celtic" is synonymous with "Irish." I think the term is one huge lumping-together, and if you're very interested in the music, you soon learn differences between the music of different places or peoples. It's a bit narrower than "world music." "World music" as opposed to what? Off-world? The terms are useful if you're talking about all of the types of music they encompass, and the hearer knows what you mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM

Someone here once coined the term "Celtoid" for groups and styles that have jumped on the bandwagon but aren't strictly traditional. It works for me! I love trad. Irish and Scottish best of all, but I can enjoy the "celtoid" sounds of Enya, Mary McLaughlin, and others as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:13 PM

Being a Bostonian, more or less (currently live in the suburbs), I will point out to Banjo Johnny that it's pronounced "Keltic" here, too. The only thing that is pronounced "Seltic" is the basketball team -- don't know why, maybe because sports fans aren't necessarily clued in to music or anthropology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM

I thought the celts were extinct anyway?

There's more Anglo/Saxon and Norman in Northen Europe than anything no?

??


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:47 PM

Actually, that Boston example has nothing to do with music or anthropology; just with linguistic history.  The Glasgow football team is also pronounced with a soft C, incidentally.  "Celtic" is a fairly meaningless term as applied to music, nowadays; most people seems to use it fairly indiscriminately, with little apparant understanding of the historical and cultural background.  McGrath's comments, as quoted by Áine, are very sensible.  Here are some past discussions on the subject:

Please EDUCATE ME: What is CELTIC music?
May I ask a question . . .
Is Braveheart's authentic celtic music ?

There is a useful, though incomplete, definition at www.standingstones.com:  What is Celtic Music?,  which I am sure has been mentioned a number of times in the past.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:53 PM

Clinton, what I've heard is that "Celtic" refers to places where Celtic languages were/are spoken, and is based on cultural factors, not genetic ones. Of course, it does illustrate how the word may not be very useful, because the word means different things to different people. Some people think "Celtic" is a type of music originating with the Celts, and has been handed down and changed over the centuries to be come modern Irish/Scots/etc music. Some people think if you're from a "Celtic" nation, anything you play is "Celtic." Others may not know what the heck you're talking about. They may assume they understand, but be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:04 PM

That was kinda what I was half jokingly getting at... when I see a good definiton of 'celtic' that everyone agrees on, then maybe the question will be answerable... right now though we may as well try to define "Folk" music!

DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT start -THAT- stupidity all over agin!!!

LOL! {~`


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM

Sorry Clinton - went zooming right over Ms Literal's head...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Charcloth
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM

maybe I am in the minority here but one of the things I like about "Celtic music" is it's broad range. I hate it that everything has to fit in such nice perfect packages. When we perform we use everything from the Corries to Loreena Mc Kennitt as material leads & that makes it fun & enjoyable for us as well as our audience. I hate "folk Nazies" all we need now is "Celtic Nazies"


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Mbo
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:07 PM

You tell 'em Charcloth!

--Matt


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM

I don't like the term 'Celtic music,' now that I think about it. Bothers me in the same way that 'Chinese music', 'Indian music,' or, especially, 'African music,' does. Way too general.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Nicole Leonard
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 05:42 AM

Of course there is 'Celtic music'! This argument reminds me of the 'are you a lumper or a splitter' thread. Celtic is a general (i.e. lumper) category of music covering traditional music from any of the Celtic countries mentioned above and any music in these styles or heavily influenced by them, or any blend of the above! This covers your 'traditional' Scottish fiddle music (which itself evolved from the earlier tradition), and also Enya and Loreena McKennitt whose music is a blend of different styles with 'traditional' influences.

If we didn't have the label 'Celtic' what could we call this music? There is nothing to stop you using a more specific sub-category if you want to (such as Scottish, traditional, etc.).

What about other styles of music such as 'Latin'? It is the same question - is it Spanish, Brazilian, Puerto Rican (etc. etc.)?

I think there may be a problem with 'Celtic' in the USA where other styles seemed to be lumped in which aren't really very Celtic-sounding but are 'New Age' or folky sounding, but I would rather it was too wide than too narrow.

Really, all music is just music and any labelling system we put on it is artificial and just a way to help us analyse it and find what we like more easily in the record store, etc. It is already very hard as an artist to find a 'genre' that your music fits into (which is a must when trying to find your 'market', ie. audience).

So please, leave 'Celtic' alone!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:17 AM

Celtic music is alive and well and thriving in the Canadian Maritime provinces of Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island. People travel from Scotland to study Gaelic on Cape Breton ,because the language of Scotland is still spoken on the island, the music is pure and definately CELTIC with a C.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Lena
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:19 AM

Well,there must be a common background for celtic music - if you're an outsider you can recognize it straight away.And even if the majority is anglo,you may agree that english traditional/medieval music in almost forgotten comparised with the celtic type.I've been told it's been far more repressed . Celtic areas also speack different dialects and don't have nuch in common,I agree of course.But as someone pointed out,celtic music means just 'irish'music to the majority. When I find myself at some session down here(where all cultures are squashed together),sometimes I let drop (after the twentienth time 'The Butterfly'is being played):well...something else then irish music?!And inveriantly someone will laugh asking what I'm doing there.Since for many people out there folk music i not even JUST celtic music,is ONLY irish tunes.

Well,celtic music is not just irish music,eh?! there is celtic music.It's an unmistakable sound.And,as well as that,there are marked differences in it.You pick me a Breton Dance and tell me it sounds like Irish...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:49 AM

I resisted wading into this discussion for the same reasons as others...remember the "What is folk?" threads? But I want to mention that as a title, Celtic not only refers to a general type of music, but guides people to it, whereafter individuals may pick and choose what they want to hear.

To my ears it's no broader a definition than "rock" or "jazz" and a much narrower definition than "folk". To title a variety of music this way allows people to find their music, particularly where there may be no other way to refine the choices, like in a cd shop, among concert listings, or festival styles.

In my own case, it would be impossible to attract a broad range of music and listeners to our local Celtic Festival if we specialized more narrowly. There'd be less interest in specific types within the celtic tradition, and it would be much more difficult to provide new/different music year after year if we had but one draw. Besides, people like variety. Celtic music exists in its traditional static form and in an evolving form. It exists in new music written in the style, and in other musics by way of influence. It exists whether played by amateur traditionalists or by profiteering opportunists.

Maybe the Chieftains drafting Keith Richards to riff along stretches the limits for some people, but it may be more an indication of mutual ackowledgement, respect, influence, and fun than anything else. For them I bet there's a direct line from "Rocky Road to Dublin" to "Satisfaction", some of us just don't hear it yet.

There is Celtic music, and it will outlast us all.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: barrygeo
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM

I started this thread but am on a different time zone to most contributors. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I guess that my concern is that in this age of commercialism all 'Celtic' and some not so Celtic music gets thrown into one pot and over a few generations gets swirled about into a mixed up mush. While much celtic music seems to have similar roots it has grown into different, if similar traditions. Will regional styles be lost in the search for profit. Currently it seems that there is little room left for the solo musician. For commercial success you need a band. On another mudcat thread we had someone looking for an informal relaxed session in the West of IReland. The small number of responses is worrying. Sessions were the source of the music but how do you fit a drum kit and keyboards etc into a session. Perhaps I'm getting old and hankering after the good old days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:35 AM

'Celtic Music' is a label invented for the convenience of record stores that have a too large collection for to use but the single label 'folk music' and a too small collection for labels like 'Altan', 'Barachois', 'Chieftains', 'Dubliners',...
I personally wouldn't use that label but it may help a search if you know what type of music to expect under that label.
Lately, I looked for Barachois in my local store (many thanks to that Mudcatter praising this group). They have a too large collection for a label like 'Celtic Music', so in the many shelves labeled 'World music' they have the subcategories 'Irish', 'Scottish' (including English, of course), 'North American' and many others. I failed to find Barachois under 'North American' and asked a clerc. 'Why? They are right there under 'Irish', second letter'. 'But they are from Canada' I insisted. 'But they play Irish music.'
You see, these labels can be convenient, if you know what they mean, nothing else.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:46 AM

I've never heard this "Celtic=Irish" thing before. What I've always heard and know myself is Celtic=Irish, Scottish, Manx, Cornish, Welsh, Galician and Breton. Heck, some of my favorite "Celtic" music makers, for indeed they are, are folks like Alain Stivell & Dan Ar Braz from Brittany and Carlos Nunez or Milladoiro (love than Teno Un Montana with Liam), as well as my Irish & Scottish favorites. There are two excellent harpers, Emma Christian and Robin Huw Bowen, one from Ellan Vannin and one from Wales, as well as the ROCKIN' group Anam who include lots of Cornish music in their repetoire. All these people have influenced me HIGHLY, and I feel it is right to say that the music I write and play is Celtic.

BTW Barachois plays French music...they only thing I ever heard them play that was Celtic was the Scottish reel "Monymusk".

--Matt --Matt


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Áine
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 11:15 AM

Sorry, Mbo -- I have to agree with Wolfgang that the "C" term is merely a marketing tool and nothing else. It's also become a convenient 'tag' for bands, especially here in the States, to hang on themselves when they play merely a smattering of Irish trad, Scottish trad, etc. These bands, which are so popular at "Celtic" festivals, are jacks of many trades, but masters at none. Personally, I think this term is a dumbing-down of the wonderful musical traditions that originated in the various lands that (increasingly) formerly spoke one of the Celtic languages.

I know that it's no use swimming against the tide of record/marketing companies and their 'easy' labels, or complaining to a record store manager that their bin-labeling is wrong. Unfortunately, this stupid term is here to stay. But shame on you if use it as a whitewash to describe these beautiful musical traditions, until they are entirely diluted and destroyed.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:35 PM

I recently read a book called "The Celtic Empire" -- I forget the author's name, and his reasons for the dumb title (they weren't convincing), but nevertheless it was interesting enough, tracing the places where Celtic people settled throughout Europe and parts of Asia, and even Egypt! (Celtic mercenaries who fought for the pharaohs were given districts to settle, and there are traces of Celticity in their descendants even today.)

Ireland and the Scottish Highlands were the only Celtic regions not conquered by the Romans, so we tend to think of them as the only "pure" Celtic societies in the world today. The Romans held Lowland Scotland for a while but didn't succeed in suppressing the Celtic culture there. Later invaders like the Scandinavians and Anglo-Normans didn't impose their culture on the society as a whole. At least that's the theory.

It could be argued that the Britons of England and Wales kept their culture even under Roman rule -- that Romanization only affected the top layers of society, and melted away when the Roman rule collapsed. Nobody is arguing that the Welsh aren't Celtic! This would also mean that the Britons who fled to Europe and established Brittany were introducing a relatively unadulterated Celtic culture to that region, which was already inhabited by more-or-less-Romanized Celts.

The Saxon and Danish invasions of England seem to have done what the Romans didn't in suppressing the Celtic culture in the Britons of England. The Celtic cultures in the rest of Europe knuckled under to Romanization and later invaders and lost all but traces of their Celtishness. This is likely a vast oversimplification -- but it explains why we automatically think of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Brittany as "Celtic" regions even though at one time the Celts conquered most of Europe.

Sorry about the lecture, but the book is worth a look.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM

Let it then be known that I now play Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Manx/Galician/Breton/acoustic but electrically influenced Oasis/ELO/Hootie/Deep Purple/Who/Styx/Boston/Beatles/Pogues/Wizzard/Move/Big Country/Pearl Jam/Stone Temple Pilots/Talking Heads/Green Day/Tom Paxton/Dougie MacLean/Andy M.Stewart/Maura O'Connell/Liam O'Flynn/William Jackson/Poozies/Kate Rusby/Loreena McKennitt/Iron Horse/Ceolbeg/Brendan Power/Battlefield Band/Barachois/Hank Williams Jr./Marty Stuart/Toby Keith/Little Texas/Confederate Railroad/Ronnie Milsap/Chris Ledoux/King Oliver music. That's my marketing ploy. Like it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Áine
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:42 PM

Dearest Mbo,

If I did the bin-labeling, I think I'd plunk you down in the Eclectic box. ;-)

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 01:39 PM

John L... Sounds like an interesting read... I'll keep an eye peeled...

OW!

LOL!

[~`


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 10:17 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of Celtic Music as being a marketing ploy. Every St Patrick's Day you see scores of Scottish pipers. Irish songs pn Robert Burns Birthday. Breton and Galician recordings for sale at Irish festivals etc....ad nauseum. One the plus side I probably would never have listened to Breton music if it hadn't been introduced to me as another type of Celtic Music. On the other hand, Altan is playing here next month and there will surely be those who have heard the unicorn and so they know they don't like Irish music but would go to see a "Celtic" band if one was playing!

My $0.02
Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: hrodelbert
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM

And eclectic is almost an annagram of celtic anyway


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM

This is a slight departure from the topic of the thread, but I think it illustrates how finely hairs can be split in this type of discussion.

Last summer I attended a music festival and workshop that included some wonderful musicians from Scotland who were there to teach both Scottish and Irish music. (Wattie, you're the best penny-whistle teacher there is, but I still can't play a cran - did I spell that right?)

We (the Americans), decided we would host a "Celtic" session in honor of our friends from the British Isles. After the "session" got underway, we quickly discovered how differently people on opposite sides of the pond define what is considered to be a "session", and also what is considered to be tradidional Irish music. What we thought was a "session" was considered to be a "play- around" by our guests. We thought Turlough O'Carolan's music was considered to be tradidional Irish music. We were informed that it is not. Apparently, he was influenced too heavily by the Italian Rennaissance. After some initial confusion and some friendly discussion about how to proceed, we decided that the Americans who were present were not up to the blood sport that the Scottish guests called a "session", so we had a lovely "play-around."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Mbo
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM

If I'm playing Celtic music, you can be bloody sure I'll take out my pipe chanter and alternate singing and playing "Tri Martolod" until I'm blue in the face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:27 AM

Sorry about my spelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:56 PM

refreshing this for someone else


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM

Well, I am reviving this thread because I have started a discussion forum using the (hated by some) "C" word - Celtic. The word "Celtic" existed before music stores and record companies started using it, and I believe it can be used in an appropriate way to describe types of art and music from cultures that have Celtic history. I hate the use of it to describe new age, I realize that it is popularly mis-used, but I don't think it should just be abandoned to the CD bins in disdain.

My effort may be futile to bring more information to those who know "Celtic" only in the most shallow or misapplied ways it has been used, but I think it is worth the effort to bring some enlightenment to people who stumble across the "genre" in music and want to know more about it.

Here is a link to the discussion board (definitely not a competitor to Mudcat).

click here

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: bill\sables
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 12:54 PM

A great wealth of celtic art was from The Lindisfarn Gospels which is Northumberland and the Book of Durrow which is in Durham both in England and not Ireland or Scotland or Wales


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM

I've been reading two books on Celtic Design by Aidan Meehan, THE DRAGON AND THE GRIFFIN The Viking Impact, and KNOTWORK The Secret Method of The Scribes. In KNOTWORK, he is describing the book of Durrow "... the earliest of the fully illuminated Gospel Books of Celtic art... the opening page... the carpet page with two armed cross...[and] This pattern from the Saxon Ship Burial of Sutton Hoo, England may be the source of the Durrow carpet page. " (He illustrates how the pattern from the ship fits with the Durrow carpet page.)
I just realized I should be typing this into my celtic music and art forum instead of here... well, if anyone wants to join me, the link is in my previous message.
Thanks, Bill.

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,MacTattie
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:44 AM

YES "Celtic" music exists. There are still boxes and boxes of the stuff lying unopened in record shops and warehouses. "Celtic" music first came to my notice with the likes of Loreena McKennit and their Disney style celtic world of fairies, elves, magical lands, strange religious conotations, cristals, miths, mists and the distinctly weerd. This fictitious mince was was quickly seized appon by many as a route to a quick buck and bands and recording companies pushed the " Corporate Celtic" tag. Never mind the style or type of music being played slap a mystical looking landscape on the cover, shove a whistle or an accordion into the final mix or better still tack on some hackneyed Irish song, and as if by magic an other addition to the "Celtic" music catalogue.

Oh yea, and lest we forget. Somewhere in in a basement in Harrogate, "CELTIC MUSIC", still exists in a distinctly weerd twilight world of his own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: death by whisky
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:24 AM

Celtic music is alive and well.For proof,pop along to the "Festivale Interceltique",Lorient,Brittany.Four and a half thousand musicians cant be wrong.Maybe its the 23hour pub lisence,free wine with your free meals ,free beer after every gig (two a day).Its a celebration of Celtic culture.As well as music and dance,each country brings art,painting and sculpture,poetry recital,the whole nine yards.Alot of celtic music exists for at least the middle two weeks of August


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 08:56 PM

just to be pedantic on the soft "c" pronunciation the word celtic originates from "galatoi" the soft c did not exist then. by the way the term Bohemia, the name for my homeland the region of the Czech republic (aside from Moravia) derives from Latin Boihoemum, meaning the "home of the Boii" a Celtic tribe from that region. (up to about 600 ad).


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: Auxiris
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:03 AM

Having had endless problems with record shops here in France and their "celtic collection/compilation" section, I would like to say that I don't really like the term "celtic". When I want to buy specific recordings, I now try to go there with the artist's name, record title, record company and reference number and just order the recordings I want, because I already know they won't be in the bin. It seems to be too much trouble for them to order anything BUT "celtic collections", "favourite pub songs", etc. Sure, there's room for that, too and I relalise that sometimes people prefer to buy a collection that includes lots of artists to find out if they like the music, but it would be nice if the record shops would order a few discs done by this or that band/singer/etc.

cheers,

Aux


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:29 AM

CarolC - could you please explain further what you mean by Scottish sessions being "blood sports". Over here in the UK we are in the throws of making such things illegal :)

Ian


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Subject: RE: BS: Does CELTIC music exist???
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 06:14 PM

Celtic also seems to be used as a way of excluding peoples music. English music seems to be excluded but not Cornish (a majority of Cornish do not consider themselves separate), incomers might.
Boadicia was queen of a Celtic tribe and she was an Essex girl, may have been called Sharon or Tracy today.
Lets not kill the term off altogether by using it as private club.
Just a thought KJ


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Mudcat time: 14 July 4:16 AM EDT

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