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BS: More pagan stuff

DigiTrad:
ALLSOULS NIGHT
LORD OF THE DANCE (PAGAN)
O, SAVE US FROM FAUX PAGANS (Or, Observations at a Renaissance Faire)


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Bert 27 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM
Peg 27 Apr 00 - 04:13 PM
MMario 27 Apr 00 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 27 Apr 00 - 04:32 PM
katlaughing 27 Apr 00 - 04:36 PM
Bert 27 Apr 00 - 04:48 PM
MMario 27 Apr 00 - 04:57 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 00 - 05:00 PM
skarpi 27 Apr 00 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,firehair28 27 Apr 00 - 05:06 PM
MMario 27 Apr 00 - 05:09 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 00 - 05:13 PM
Jacob B 27 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM
wysiwyg 27 Apr 00 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,JZG 27 Apr 00 - 06:01 PM
Bert 27 Apr 00 - 06:07 PM
katlaughing 27 Apr 00 - 06:15 PM
skarpi 27 Apr 00 - 07:10 PM
skarpi 27 Apr 00 - 07:31 PM
catspaw49 27 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM
catspaw49 27 Apr 00 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 00 - 07:56 PM
catspaw49 27 Apr 00 - 07:57 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 00 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,Fred's mother 27 Apr 00 - 08:41 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 00 - 08:54 PM
Dani 27 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM
katlaughing 27 Apr 00 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 27 Apr 00 - 10:35 PM
GUEST, Fred's Mother 27 Apr 00 - 10:38 PM
GUEST,Phil Shapiro 28 Apr 00 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,L Whitfield 28 Apr 00 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Penny S. 28 Apr 00 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England 28 Apr 00 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 28 Apr 00 - 10:13 AM
Clinton Hammond2 28 Apr 00 - 10:22 AM
Peg 28 Apr 00 - 10:46 AM
MAG (inactive) 28 Apr 00 - 01:02 PM
katlaughing 28 Apr 00 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 28 Apr 00 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,JZG 28 Apr 00 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 28 Apr 00 - 02:27 PM
Amos 28 Apr 00 - 03:59 PM
skarpi 28 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM
Dani 28 Apr 00 - 09:03 PM
catspaw49 28 Apr 00 - 09:33 PM
katlaughing 28 Apr 00 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 28 Apr 00 - 09:46 PM
Eluned 28 Apr 00 - 10:10 PM
skarpi 29 Apr 00 - 03:35 AM
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Subject: More pagan stuff
From: Bert
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM

continuing that pagan music thread


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Peg
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:13 PM

yes the other had grown rather long! thanks Bert...

I still am feeling like there is a lot of "well THIS is the way it ACTUALLY happened!" going on in the thread, when I am inclined to agree with whoever recently said that the past is a mystery...and there are as many versions of it as there are historians, folklorists, archeologists, anthropologists and apologists to disagree on it...

at least we are gaining some interesting food for thought and some good reading suggestions...but again, every book is only that writer's version of events, based on his/her research and interpretation of other people's research and discoveries and writings...no?

peg


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: MMario
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:25 PM

RE: bert's comments on the rose and the briar....I can see how it can be interpreted as pagan influence, though I can also see how it can be interpreted as merely poetic imagery. Unless we find some way of speaking to the person who first composed that lyric there is really no way we can tell....

*grin* I once had the wierd experience of having someone dissect and analyze a paper who gushed and raved and marveled over the "earth mother, polytheistic images," etc, and so forth. (This was in a presentation to a literature class) When it came time for open discussion, I asked if possibly the author hadn't had various christian practices and images in mind when the piece was written and was quite pointedly told that it was not remotely possible. The presenter went on at some length in order to convince me that I was wrong, and that they were right.

What I never told them was that I had written the piece in question. (The facilitator for the group did know, and had quite a chuckle over the whole affair) At the time I didn't consider it to be the least bit funny, though I do get a chuckle out of it now.

My point...personal viewpoints can colour perception.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:32 PM

Peg,

Yes, every history book is its author's interpretation of the data. No, not every book is equally close to the truth. If one book states that the nuns of Kildare truly, to the best of their ability, worshipped the one God to the exclusion of all others, and another book says that they only pretended to do so while secretly and knowingly departing from Christian practice by worshipping other beings that they regarded as gods equal to or superior to the God of the Christians, then both books can't be right according to the same terms of reference.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:36 PM

Back to the music, some of the old songs are supposed to include:

The Maypole
At A Maypole Down in Kent
Fill, fill the Bright Mead-cup
The Fairy (sic) Queen
Send Round the Cup

I have the lyrics and sheet music if anyone is interested. They are from a book by Buckland and of course, would represent only HIS opinion/knowledge/or whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Bert
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:48 PM

Of course MMario, personal viewpoints are what Mudcat is all about. that's why I love this place so much. We get to talk to our friends about what we think.
Yes it IS poetic imagery, but is it also a vestige of our folk/tribal subconcious?

Your presenter might also have read 'earth mother' implications into a Catholic Easter Mass.

How much of what we believe goes back to prehistoric times?

Bert.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: MMario
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:57 PM

I think some things are "hardwired" into our cultures...practically genetic. And I know that various cultural theorists put a lot of credence in the sub-conscious icons and attitudes that colour perceptions. But I have always been sceptical of people who want to tell me what my "real" reasons are regarding a decision. (Heck - most of my decisions are based on either guilt or fear. I learned that a LONG time ago...) I think what I am trying to say is that rather then saying "This is the way it was" (unless you have some really good documentation - or wrote something yourself) it would behoove a lot of people to say rather "this is the way some think it was" or "this is the way it might have been". (Note: myself included. I tend to state flatly things that should be put as theory or opinion...)


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:00 PM

Mmario spoke of something being "interpreted as merely poetic imagery." Building my idea that we need to keep our minds open to the beliefs of others, I'd suggest that we need to keep our minds open to the poetry and imagination and imagery that is involved in belief and myth and tradition. I think that we sometimes become obsessed with finding what we define as truth, so that we can defend our beliefs against others. No matter how deeply we study ancient traditions, we will only know part of their truth - but if we explore with an open mind, we can encounter the wonder of these traditions, in a way that is relevant to our own age.
Truth is nice, I suppose; but let's not forget beauty and awe and wonder, and love.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:04 PM

Hallo , can you please tell me what a PAGAN means, I dont have idea what it means or baybe I just never have thought about it. All the best skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,firehair28
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:06 PM

I think some of the more heated argument in here is coming from dueling definitions.

From a Christian POV, the term "pagan" is exclusive, it means someone who is not, never was, doesn't believe in, the judeo-christian mythos. You can't be a christian and a pagan at the same time.

But to a neopagan like myself, the term "pagan" is not exlusive, it is inclusive. "pagans" are those who believe in more than one deity/mythos at a time. So, from my POV, those Kildare nuns could have been both Christian AND pagan - practising pagan rituals when they were needed right alongside and within christian practices, without any conflict.

Now, I know what you're gonna say: The Bible forbids that kinda thing, so a "good christian" would never knowingly practise paganism. But, there's a difference between the way something is written and how it is practiced, especially among the "common folk".

To cite a non-western example: Mahayana Buddhism incorporated many local gods and beliefs into its structure when it spread east out of india. The original buddhist scriptures are now only a teensy part of a truly vast religion that varies from place to place throughout Asia. Buddhists see no problem with praying to whomever will get the job done, from saint to deity to even demons, without any conflict of interest.

Just my $.02


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: MMario
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:09 PM

I should have said "poetic image with no conscious connotations of religious import to the author" sorry.

Joe - I can't agree with you more...


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:13 PM

Kat, I am *really* interested in your May songs!!

Having an all-night vigil here Beltain eve, and we need more songs to sing! Could you send them to me? my email is firehair28@yahoo.com

thanks! Fiona


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Jacob B
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM

If one book states that the nuns of Kildare worshipped one God to the exclusion of all others, and another book says that they only pretended to do so, then both authors are being intellectually dishonest, to the extent that they are making flat declarations about things they have no hard evidence about.

If one author states that such-and-such suggests that the nuns may have worshipped more than one god, and the other author says that there is no reason to believe that was the case, then perhaps you can take what they are saying at face value.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:58 PM

What do you all think about a way of approximating the qualitative diff between [pagan] and [monotheistic] that I heard somewhere--

Paganism focuses on the creation, monotheism on the creator.

All viewpoints welcome.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,JZG
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:01 PM

Hi there -- I'm not what you'd call an "official" Mudcatter but I follow some of the threads occasionally ... in the context of this one I was wondering if anyone (like maybe Okiemockbird, who seems to be pretty good about sources and scholarship and such) knows of any good scholarship on actual just-before-christianity culture and society in Europe, and what was going on in the conversion itself? I've been curious about this for a while, being unsatisfied with both the miracle-and-martyrdom stories you get from some Christian sources and the standard "well, they were all forced to convert on pain of death, weren't they?" that you tend to get if you ask your friends ... any good books taking both archaeological and historical evidence into account?

I admit to being too lazy, or maybe too busy or something, to really want to go looking at a lot of primary sources; I'm hoping someone has done this research and I can just read it :-)

JZG


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Bert
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:07 PM

The people who lived here were both pagan and Christian at the same time. Hedging their bets maybe. Or was it that Hubby was Pagan and Wifey was Christian?


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:15 PM

Sure, Fiona, It will take me a bit to scan them, but then no problem. If anyone else is interested, just let me know. Once they are scanned, it's just a quick email click & there ya go.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:10 PM

Still dont get it . skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:31 PM

Hallo again , I guess a Pagan is another word for Catholic????????. J a held g n bara. All the best skarpi Iceland sln.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM

Most of what we know as "History" is philosophy. All are written from the philosophical perspective of the author and have often been victims of assorted translations and various fashionable "upgrades." When these modified, ancient texts are them summarized by others of the historical and scholarly bent and filtered through their personal agendas or the agenda of a group such as the Catholic church, you are left with mish-mash to the 4th power. We are now up to the 217th power when it comes to the "authoritative information and sources" regarding events of this period being discussed.

Let's not be too authoratative with each other.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:50 PM

Hi Skarpi......for ease of translation, consider that a pagan does not necessarily subscribe to the "One Almighty God" theory as do Christians (including Catholics)and Jews.

But thanks for the mental picture of Joe Offer as Pagan.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:56 PM

I'm going to have to think about that mental image...


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:57 PM

LOL.......Ya gotta' admit Joe, its aa different look for you!!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:28 PM

Does this mean I have to give up wearing plaid shirts and jeans, Spaw?

...everywhere I go, people make remarks about my taste in clothing, and I don't know why. I mean, plaid is my color, after all.
What do pagans wear?
Doesn't plaid have pagan roots?
-Joe, not sure about all this-


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Fred's mother
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:41 PM

Skarpi!!

Why not look the word up in a dictionary.

It is spelt P.A.G.A.N. and would be in any good Icelandic/English lexicon.

All the best. Fred's mother. Titsville Tennessee


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:54 PM

'tain't that easy, Mom - My 1997 Webster's New World Dictionary describes pagan as a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
A Web search for "paganism" brings up information that might be more relevant. Click here for what looks like an interesting page.
Here (click) is another resource which gives a lot of information, including this quote:
Paganism is a broad, eclectic contemporary religious movement that encompasses shamanistic, ecstatic, polytheistic, and magical religions. Most of the religions termed Pagan are characterized by nature-centered spirituality, honoring of pre-Christian deities, dynamic, personal belief systems, lack of institutionalization, a quest to develop the self, and acceptance and encouragement of diversity. Paganism is sometimes referred to as Neo-Paganism to emphasize its connections to as well as difference from pre-Christian religions.

Paganism is a worldwide phenomenon and includes revived and updated ancient European practices and religions, feminist Goddess-worship, and religions inspired by science-fiction writings. For their inspiration, Pagans look to non-Abrahamic, ecstatic, and mystery religions of Europe as well as indigenous and magic-using traditions from around the world. Contemporary Paganism is interwoven with artistic, visionary, and libertarian traditions and emphasizes the free will of the individual. Many traditions celebrate rituals to mark transitions in the natural world (such as solstices, lunar phases, or a birth) as well as in a person's life (such as marriage or moving to a new home).

While the largest segment of the Pagan population is Caucasian and middle class, Paganism cuts across all lines, whether racial, occupational, or class- or gender-based. Most Pagans, however, are avid readers with interests in ecology, creativity, and personal growth. Many come from the scientific, computer, and technical fields. Since it is not an organized movement, it is very difficult to determine the number of its practitioners, but it is estimated that there are between 100,000 and 600,000 in the U.S. alone. Some have termed Paganism the fastest-growing religion in the West.
-Joe Offer, still waiting for admission as a Plaid Pagan-


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Dani
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM

I've recently finished reading a book called "When The Drummers Were Women" A Spiritual History of Rhythm, by Layne Redmond.

Though mostly about the use of the frame drum in spiritual practice(mostly by women) throughout history, the book contains a couple of fascinating chapters that bring alive the 'interwoven' history of pagans/Goddess-worshippers/ early Christians/atheists/ political pragmatists and all of their respective machinations. Tons of research, footnotes, references, biblios, etc., but mostly interesting for making the times come alive and sparking curiosity about how all these folks got along (or didn't) and what the current issues were that affected religious practice.

Joe, maybe there's a place for you. Though raised Catholic, I am a Unitarian Universalist, and raising my children so. However, I have many friends who celebrate Pagan holidays, and whenever I'm asked to join celebrations I do, referring to myself as a "Solstice and Equinox Pagan", like those "Christmas and Easter Catholics"!


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:24 PM

Plaid Pagan....I LOVE IT! LOL!!!!

Nice info, Joe, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:35 PM

Skarpi, this is a setup right ? Surely they make you read the following passage in the Islendingabók from the time you are small:

"[A.D. 1000] It was made law that all should be Christians, and they should take baptism who were as yet unbaptized here in the land. But with respect to the exposure of infants the ancient laws should stand, and so with the eating of horseflesh. Men might sacrifice secretly if they wished, but it would be a case for the lesser outlawry if witness was brought forward to it. But a few winters later this heathendom was done away with like the rest."

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST, Fred's Mother
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:38 PM

Obviously not.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Phil Shapiro
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:16 AM

Why on earth would you assume that there was no resistance to the Christian Church, particularly in the rural peasantry? In a world of minimal communication, surely the high-born and literate would be pulled into the new religion, but what makes you think that ordinary, ornery humans would 100% agree? Does anything else in human nature work this way? In Palestine, at least until a few years ago (I might have read this 10 years ago????) there still existed remnants of: Philistines, and also Samaritans. I think it was the Samaritans who were down to a few dozen. Now, that's orneriness. The Serbs have been trying to stamp out local Islam for a long time now. Have they succeeded? Don't read upper class history as the totality of history. Assume contrariness. You'll probably be right.

Phil


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,L Whitfield
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:00 AM

kat/katlaughing - I'd be very interested in lyrics/sheet music of those songs if you could provide them - also some background stuff if the collector provided it (helps with sleeve notes and the like). If they're in abc format or gifs - I can be emailed (lucy_whitfield@wme.co.uk). If not, we'll come up with something else! And just to throw my definition of "pagan" into the fray...someone who follows an earth religion, respecting life and the earth, and attempting to attune with the seasons - and this does not necessarily include any sort of deity. Clear as mud, I know!


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 07:47 AM

Not far from Lullingstone, a dig discovered, in a Jutish cemetery, a male interment, woth grave goods - pagan. But the goods were a glass bowl, from Gaul, with a Chi-Rho at the base, and he had no weapons with him - Christian.

At Stone near Faversham, in the 4th century AD a pagan mausoleum or small shrine was built. By the 6th century, it was a Christian chapel to Our Lady of (can't remember, but somewhere very small and local, like a farm name), and it continued so until Tudor times, with various small modifications.

The conversion was a very odd process. But it doesn't seem that major worship rituals continued - if your priestly caste have gone over, who is to do it? If your holy places have been converted, where are you to do it? From the evidence of burials, where you would expect folk religion to hang about a bit, ordinary people went over too.

There are some interesting stories about the locals in various places offering invective to monks - I think one involves St. Wilfrid, not the most attractive of missionaries. I'll try and track them down.

Since the maintenance of a strong pagan presence would have had implications for the organisation of the country, the political hierarchy as well as the church, and especially for taxation, it would have been recorded. Charlemagne wasn't so fierce on pagans for merely religious reasons. He tried to wipe out gilds (the forerunners of the Rotary Club and insurance companies) because they were places where people could discuss things clandestinely, and those discussions could be subversive. And they were Christian by his time - though they had respectable Roman antecedents.

Charlemagne recorded his dealing with resistance with triumphalism. St. Olaf (?eligibility) did the same.

Europe was far more organised and bureaucratic than writers of Junior School history books let on.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 07:52 AM

Anyone interested in this sort of thing might like to look out for Ronald Hutton's 'Stations of the Sun' and 'Triumph of the Moon'.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:13 AM

Phil, it was YOU, not I, who wrote "Pagans got really quiet when the church took over", i.e. that there was no active resistance. In fact there was active resistance. Late Roman pagans (Julian, Symmachus) wrote eloquently in defense of their ancestral sacrifices. In some places there was armed resistance at least before the church "took over." In the period roughly 1000-1200 A.D. a well-armed Sorbian paganism resisted an equally well-armed Christendom.

Passive resistance and secret non-conformity are certainly possible. As I mentioned, there are recorded cases of Jews in Spain and North Africa conforming outwardly to Islam when the pressure was on, while remaining Jews in secret. I believe there is a letter of Maimonides on just that subject, in which he approves of the strategy. Christianity survived, so I have heard, in remote parts of Japan, and in at least one seaport, from the 17th to the 19th century despite official disapproval. Lithuania accepted Christianity formally in 1386, but a Lithuanian chatechism published in 1547 suggests that the chatechism's author thought it at least possible that his students might be tempted to serve the old god Perkunas. It is logically possible for paganism to have survived through the means of survival-by-deciet or survival-by-self-effacement. But I have yet to be convinced by any claims that have been made for such survival into my lifetime. When we hear about people practicing rites that might once have been offerings to pagan gods (e.g. throwing coins into fountains and wells, or pouring out ale to "Shoney") the evidence shows that the people who conducted these rites considered themselves Christians, and their ritual a Christian practice--not that they were wink-and-smirk decievers.

The Gardnerian Wicca's historical claims once (and in some places perhaps still) echoed the now-discredited Murray thesis, the now-discredited theory of a neolithic Great Mother, and the now-discredited theory of a mutterrecht period of human development. These claims strike me as transparently false. The demographic facts would seem to confirm this. The adherents of the Gardnerian Wicca aren't, so far as I can tell, the children of rural or mountain or forest people (the sort of places where, according to your proposal, paganism would most likely survive.) They are not concerned with practising ancient rituals in order to ensure a good catch or harvest, increase in their flocks, or ensure the prosperity of their city-state. They are individualistic, mainly middle-class suburbanites whose grandparents were by all evidence Christians. Their religion somewhat resembles the eclectic mystery cults of the ancient Mediterranean world, not anything documented for the British Isles. Yet it was in those islands that the Gardnerian Wicca was invented, and continuity with the ancient religion of those islands that the Gardnerian Wicca originally claimed.

A more plausible claim of historical continuity is made, so I once heard, by some in Iceland who sacrifice to Thor. I frankly don't believe their claims (if in fact they make such claims), but at least they aren't insultingly absurd. They've chosen a ritual and a god that are at least historically credible in their situation.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:22 AM

A definiton of PAGAN:

P.A.G.A.N.:
People Against Goodness And Normalacy!

At least that's what it was in the movie!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!

{~`


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:46 AM

Clinton: reminds me of that group in the 1970s whose acronym was W.I.T.C.H. and they kept changing it to suit their cause of the moment...for the most part, though, they were the "Woman's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell."
I forget the other versions but some of them were quite hilarious...

peg


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:02 PM

W.I.T.C.H. was women's radical guerilla theater and great fun.

For more good (modern) songs, try

Linda Waterfall's "Girl's Night Out"

and

Claudia Schmidt's "Beltane Boogie."


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:42 PM

Sure, Lucy, no problem. I will get them out this afternoon.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:58 PM

FYI when I mentioned Sorbian paganism, that wasn't a typo. I really meant SOrbian, just as I wrote, not SErbian. The Sorbs are also known as the Wends.

I thought I should make that clear, since I know I make many typos in my posts.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,JZG
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 02:04 PM

Who/where were the Sorbs, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 02:27 PM

I think the Sorbians (also called Wends) now live mainly in what used to be East Germany though I'm not sure precisely what part. In the 11th century I think they lived Along the River Oder and adjoining areas, and held some islands (such as Rugen) in the Baltic. One of their principle towns was Szczecin/Stettin.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 03:59 PM

The Spanish Catholic conversion of Mexico was effected, among other things, by building the cathedrals and churches on the sites of the temples of main villages, and using the ancient names with Catholic appendages. One example is the small town outside of Guadalajara known as Santa maria de Tequipexpan, the temple there before being called Tequipexpan in the dominant indigenous tongue. Every year the main Catholic festival there is accompanied by a horde of blood-descendants of the displaced Indians who populated this village in the 1500s before the Spanish came. They dance in costume with traditional drums and instruments in the square outside the cathedral.

A very funny confrontation occurred there the year i was there: the Church was holding an annual multiple-weddings ceremony, which they do every year so that couples who cannot afford a separate wedding ceremony can still be properly wed. A wonderful sight -- dozens of young and poor couples in the best finery they can borrow lining up to start their lives together with proper priestly administration of oaths.

But as this ceremony was going on, the Mixtals or whatever the tribe was were drumming outside the cathedral and chanting. Their costumes were bright with feathers and beads and strings, the men were bare-chested, some were masked, and they were raising so much din that the priest had to come out and argue with the chief of the tribe -- they stood there in their respective costumes, icon-to-icon, totem-to-totem, glaring at each other.

It was a genuine 20th century confrontation between the pagan world and the Church of Rome. I nearly died watching them stare each other down. They settled it somehow, but I will always remember it as one of those moments when life imitates the best poetry.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: skarpi
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM

Hallo all, Hmmmmmmmmm I dont know what to say a it seams to me that some of you do not like PAGAN or a Heathendom. Well here in iceland we have a little group witch we can call heathen, and I know something about the Icelandichistory and this year we are holding a selebration of christian faith for 1000 years. Well I am christian soul, but I am not gonna go and take a part of this show.The heathen group is going to have their ,we can call it a heathen mass few days before the christian does, and that is great for them. If my justment is wrong about what you all have been talking about I am sorry I am not writing this to hurt anybody, at the end I will write this : Wheather you are christian,Pagan,catholic,Islam or jew I respect all of you and your religion as I hope you all do for mine.In Iceland today people are leeaving the christian church more now than ever and maybe thats something to worry about.Where do this people go, well some go to the catholic church and some of them went to small religion groups.So here In the once was a heathen land and still are, all the people are free to go where ever they want to be. I thing that the people of the Earth have to learn to respect eachother faith. May god be with you all, all the best skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Dani
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:03 PM

Amen, brother.

As Skarpi has said, so may it be!

Dani


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:33 PM

Skarpi my old friend......For a guy who supposedly didn't understand, you have hammered home the nail of truth and goodwill and the best of what the 'Cat can be.

Thnak you for a true insight and wonderful thought.

All My Best,

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:35 PM

Skarpi, my friend, you are RIGHT ON!! Thank you for the information and for understanding what is being said here. You are absolutely right about the need for respect and freedom to believe what we want.

Takk fyrir, góoa noacutett og sofou vel! (Sorry I don't have a button for some of the marks & I hope I got what I do know correct!)

Please, Skarpi, a quick lesson? How do you write "my friend" and "love" in Icelandic? Takk fyrir!

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:46 PM

My earlier statement about mystery religions was imprecise. I should have said that nothing like the mystery cults is so far known from the native British tradition. Of course some of the urban Mediterranean cults -- of Mithras (popular among soldiers) of Serapis, of Cybele, maybe some others -- were imported during the Roman period.

Skarpi, yes--"freedom" is one of our "worship words" here in America (that's a reference to an old Star Trek episode, but seriously meant nevertheless) just as it seems to be for you.

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: Eluned
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:10 PM

Joe, MMario, I totally agree with what you were saying about 1/3 into this thread about poetic imagery and cultures! (Some poetic imagery comes just naturally to folks, whether they are consciously parallelling others or not.
Kat....may I too please have these lyrics/tunes to do with Beltaine?
Dani- always wanted to read that book! The bits I have browsed at the local library were like a window into people's lives back then.
Skarpi, you seem to have hit the answer on the head! Live and let live, even unto what we feel in our hearts!


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Subject: RE: BS: More pagan stuff
From: skarpi
Date: 29 Apr 00 - 03:35 AM

Hallo, Kat you have forget some words, thats okei.

Sleep well and good night my friend in Icelandic is-- Ga ntt og sofu vel vinur minn.

love in Icelandic is : st.

Now its morning here in Iceland and I just saw the newspaper there was a picture of my president with president Clinton. I think my president is in Wasington to be with opening of Vikingsaga how Leifur Eirksson found Canada and America.I wish I could see this, well back to sleep for two hours then back to work. All the best skarpi Iceland.


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