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private use CD--legal or not??

Art Thieme 08 Mar 00 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 08 Mar 00 - 07:44 PM
Clinton Hammond2 08 Mar 00 - 10:32 PM
ddw 08 Mar 00 - 10:55 PM
Escamillo 08 Mar 00 - 11:00 PM
Troll 08 Mar 00 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,_gargoyle 09 Mar 00 - 12:05 AM
Sorcha 09 Mar 00 - 01:18 AM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 08:58 AM
Charlie Baum 09 Mar 00 - 09:10 AM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 09 Mar 00 - 10:07 AM
Art Thieme 09 Mar 00 - 11:20 AM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 11:44 AM
Bert 09 Mar 00 - 12:07 PM
annamill 09 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 12:28 PM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 12:34 PM
Axeman 09 Mar 00 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 09 Mar 00 - 01:24 PM
annamill 09 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 01:59 PM
Jon Freeman 09 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 09 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM
MMario 09 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 07:26 PM

Folks, I just talked to a friend in Georgia. She and her husband are about to celebrate their 20th wedding anniversary she wants to make a CD of several of the songs that were important to her and her husband over those years. IT WOULD NOT BE SOLD. It would be presented as a gift to her husband and other guests at the party.

The question is this:

Would royalties need to be paid to the composers of the individual songs included on the CD ???

Thanks in advance,

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 07:44 PM

My take (but this is purely private opinion, not legal advice) on this is: since the CD is being made in multiple copies and distributed, your friends would have get permission from, and possibly to pay mechanical royalties to, the copyright holders (not necessarily the same persons as the composers and lyricists.) If they want to reprint the words on sleeve notes, that would require a separate clearance from the mechanical license.

T.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:32 PM

Why ask... Just do it... You really think that the CD police are gonna come break down your door?

{~`


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: ddw
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:55 PM

I sorta agree with Clinton — it probably isn't strictly legal, but if distribution is limited to the guests at a party, would anybody really care enough to initiate legal action?

david


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:00 PM

It's just an opinion: it is not legal. Copyrights expressely forbid unauthorized reproduction, no matter wether it is for profit or not. How many times it is done everyday ? Possibly thousands, nobody knows.

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Troll
Date: 08 Mar 00 - 11:04 PM

I see this as an ethical question. While I'm quite sure the "CD Police" would not come around, the writers are still being deprived of their due.That the CDs would not be sold is not an issue. Okiemockbird is correct. The ethical thing to do is to obtain the necessary mechanical licenses and permissions to record.If we don't respect our fellow songwriters, who will?

troll


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:05 AM

Dear kART.....you of all people,!!!!

How could you??????

Just DO IT!!!!And if the copyright police make a bust....on their anniversy night....it is probably as good a message as they got for 25cents in the motel of their honeymoon.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:18 AM

Art, I would have thought you would be in a better position than most of us to answer this. I thought MAKING MONEY was the issue here? They are (not) making money so I would have assumed this was a non issue? Please correct me..................


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:58 AM

actually, legally, the issue is MAKING A COPY, not whether or not that copy will be sold, or make a profit.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:10 AM

Copies are made all the time--inherently--in order to play the CD, the information is copied to your RAM, and then played from that copy.

One of those cases where it's a LOT easier to get forgiveness than to get permission.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:14 AM

dammit, charlie, you know what I meant...; and as I understand it, permission is not required as long as the mechanical copyright is paid.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 10:07 AM

I think MMario is referring to the compulsory license mechanism, which allows one to "cover" a song that has been once recorded by buying a compulsory license (often from the Hairy Fox). One can sometimes get a better deal by negotiating with the rightsholders, so the question is whether the time spent negotiating is worth the money, and possibly paperwork time (I heard that sometimes licencees negotiate to make quarterly reports to the HFA rather than monthly reports) that will be saved.

A site devoted to music licensing questions is Kohn on Music Licensing. I haven't examined it in detail, so I don't know how useful it is.

As far as I can make out (remember I am not a lawyer, this post is strictly private opinion, nothing in this post is legal advice, etc. etc.) the current statutory rate is governed by 37 CFR 255.3(j):

"(j) For every phonorecord made and distributed on or after January 1, 2000, the royalty rate payable with respect to each work embodied in the phonorecord shall be either 7.55 cents, or 1.45 cents per minute of playing time or fraction thereof, whichever amount is larger, subject to further adjustment pursuant to paragraphs (k) through (m) of this section."

If I'm reading this right, a CD containing 10 3-minute songs would pay a statutory royalty of 7.55*10 = 75.5 cents at the rate quoted above. A print run of 20 CDs would then cost $15.10 in royalties. A CD with twenty 3-minute songs would require a royalty of 20*7.55 = $1.51 per CD. A CD with ten 6-minute songs would require 1.45*6*10 = 87 cents per CD in royalty.

T.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 11:20 AM

Folks, We all know that we *field collect* songs off the radio & TV all the time. Then we might make a cassette of favorites to use in the car. Do you mean to tell me that my friend can't make a CD for her husband and the 30 or so people who might be at the party? If that's the case this is indeed a goddam insane f...ing world.

Art


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 11:44 AM

Art - as someone explained to me....if you record off radio or tv for your own personal use....you are "time shifting". but if you record and DISTRIBUTE then you are making copies. As usual it is legalistic semantics and doubletalk.

in the long run, the safest bet is always stick to public domain, or stuff you can obtain (preferably written) permission from the copyright holder.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:07 PM

Technically I suppose it's illegal, but in reality I doubt if anyone would really bother with sueing over such a minor infringement.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: annamill
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM

Oh phooey! If they made a cassette tape of their favorites would it be illegal. Why does the medium make a difference? Tape recorders are used all the time. Is that illegal? Just do it! (should I pay Nike a royalty now?)

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:28 PM

it's not the medium, it is the DISTRIBUTION. and yes, the way a lot of tape recorders are used is illegal. Unenforced, but illegal.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 12:34 PM

note: I am not saying these laws are right, or just, or anywhere they should be...but they are there....


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Axeman
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:23 PM

Art, it is "...indeed a goddam insane f...ing world" and, technically, permission should be obtained and a small royalty paid. Practically speaking, the CD police aren't comin' to the party and, were it *my* party, I would shamelessly hand out privately burned copies. P... on the CD police--these nit-picky laws are for the benefit of the Clive Davises and Garth Brookses of the world. JMO, of course. -Axe'


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:24 PM

My hunch is MMario is right (distribution of copies matters) and annap is wrong (private copying isn't necessarily illegal). My hunch is, intercepting music from the radio, or from another recording, for private use might (but of course, this is private opinion, not legal advice) come under 17 USC 1008:

"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings."

Note the careful wording:

"No action may be brought under this title" i.e. there might be other parts of the law under which action might be brought;

"alleging infringement of copyright" i.e. they are free to allege other things, like "circumvention" that might apply;

"based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings" i.e. an action might still be brought alleging infringement based on the distribution of copies even if it can't be brought based on the use of the recording equipment or medium.

Maybe if your friends make ONE copy for themselves, and just happen to have blank CDs and CD burning equipment at their party, and each of their friends individually just happens to make a private recording for himself--maybe then the activity is legal. But that's one for the lawyers to work out.

PS: were your friend planning to "cover" the songs themselves, or make an anthology of tracks from other performers' albums ? In the latter case, in addition to the copyright in the music and words, there may be a copyright in the recording itself.

T.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: annamill
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM

I reiterate! Phooey!

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:59 PM

annap - in essence I agree with you, but the question isn't is it ethical or not to do it, nor, is this considered by most people to be harmless, but the question was is this legal or illegal. and the answer is "illegal" -

after that it is a matter of individual conscience. and whether or not you get "caught"


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM

I agree with MMario that it is illegal but I must admit that in the circumstances described by Art I am pretty sure that I would just go ahead and make the copies and would still sleep at night without being troubled by fears of getting caught or by a troubled conscience.

Jon


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM

I also agree with annap's "phooey" to the following extent: All these Mickey Mouse legalities might be easier to bear if we had a copyright law that actually benefitted its intended beneficiaries--authors and the public--rather than beneffiting Mickey Mouse at the expense of authors and the public.

In other words (I know I've posted these thought before, but they bear repeating)

1) the term of copyright needs to be shorter;

2) the termination-of-transfer provisions need to be strengthened in authors' favor;

3) the boundaries of fair use need to be broadened somewhat;

4) the performance licensing system needs to be reformed;

5) and I'm sure I can come up with more gripes in time.

T.


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Subject: RE: private use CD--legal or not??
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM

ditto.


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