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BS: If you were completely honest...

Amos 02 Mar 00 - 04:26 PM
Callie 02 Mar 00 - 04:49 PM
MMario 02 Mar 00 - 04:55 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 05:04 PM
wysiwyg 02 Mar 00 - 05:08 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 05:22 PM
Callie 02 Mar 00 - 05:22 PM
wysiwyg 02 Mar 00 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,BeesWing 02 Mar 00 - 05:35 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Mar 00 - 05:46 PM
wysiwyg 02 Mar 00 - 05:48 PM
Midchuck 02 Mar 00 - 05:52 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Mar 00 - 05:52 PM
wysiwyg 02 Mar 00 - 06:00 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 06:01 PM
wysiwyg 02 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM
Mbo 02 Mar 00 - 06:11 PM
Callie 02 Mar 00 - 06:22 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Mar 00 - 06:26 PM
catspaw49 02 Mar 00 - 06:40 PM
Allan C. 02 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM
Osmium 02 Mar 00 - 07:06 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 07:10 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Mar 00 - 07:27 PM
Metchosin 02 Mar 00 - 07:51 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Mar 00 - 07:57 PM
Allan C. 02 Mar 00 - 08:21 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 08:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 00 - 09:07 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 09:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 00 - 10:29 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 10:39 PM
Sorcha 02 Mar 00 - 11:28 PM
Amos 02 Mar 00 - 11:42 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 00 - 02:09 AM
wysiwyg 03 Mar 00 - 02:38 AM
katlaughing 03 Mar 00 - 02:45 AM
Night Owl 03 Mar 00 - 03:19 AM
wysiwyg 03 Mar 00 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,Patrish 03 Mar 00 - 04:33 AM
wysiwyg 03 Mar 00 - 04:39 AM
katlaughing 03 Mar 00 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Patrish 03 Mar 00 - 05:28 AM
Little Neophyte 03 Mar 00 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Neil Lowe 03 Mar 00 - 09:05 AM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 09:19 AM
Little Neophyte 03 Mar 00 - 09:27 AM
MMario 03 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Patrish 03 Mar 00 - 09:46 AM
Fortunato 03 Mar 00 - 10:10 AM
wysiwyg 03 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Dan Keding 03 Mar 00 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Patrish 03 Mar 00 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Patrish 03 Mar 00 - 11:20 AM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 11:45 AM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 11:51 AM
MK 03 Mar 00 - 12:07 PM
katlaughing 03 Mar 00 - 12:11 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM
Art Thieme 03 Mar 00 - 12:31 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Smitty 03 Mar 00 - 02:26 PM
katlaughing 03 Mar 00 - 02:27 PM
Fortunato 03 Mar 00 - 02:27 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 02:55 PM
Allan C. 03 Mar 00 - 03:00 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 03:34 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 03:46 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 04:03 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 00 - 04:07 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 04:11 PM
Mbo 03 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM
Little Neophyte 03 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM
Biskit 03 Mar 00 - 04:59 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 05:59 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 06:41 PM
Osmium 03 Mar 00 - 07:01 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 07:32 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 07:37 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 07:42 PM
Amos 03 Mar 00 - 08:03 PM
katlaughing 03 Mar 00 - 08:33 PM
Mbo 03 Mar 00 - 08:51 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 09:24 PM
Mbo 03 Mar 00 - 09:33 PM
Little Neophyte 03 Mar 00 - 09:36 PM
catspaw49 03 Mar 00 - 09:38 PM
The Shambles 03 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM
Little Neophyte 03 Mar 00 - 09:44 PM
Mbo 03 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM
Metchosin 03 Mar 00 - 11:49 PM
Metchosin 03 Mar 00 - 11:55 PM
Amos 04 Mar 00 - 12:55 AM
catspaw49 04 Mar 00 - 01:09 AM
canoer 04 Mar 00 - 04:19 AM
Metchosin 04 Mar 00 - 05:48 AM
katlaughing 04 Mar 00 - 06:40 AM
catspaw49 04 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM
Little Neophyte 04 Mar 00 - 07:54 AM
Amos 04 Mar 00 - 10:31 AM
wysiwyg 04 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM
Barbara 04 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,John Gray / Australia 04 Mar 00 - 08:20 PM
Mbo 04 Mar 00 - 08:39 PM
Little Neophyte 04 Mar 00 - 10:57 PM
wysiwyg 04 Mar 00 - 11:21 PM
canoer 05 Mar 00 - 02:18 AM
Osmium 05 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM
Clinton Hammond2 06 Mar 00 - 05:47 PM
wysiwyg 11 Mar 00 - 07:51 PM
wysiwyg 12 Mar 00 - 02:07 AM
Amos 12 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM
wysiwyg 12 Mar 00 - 01:59 PM
Lonesome EJ 22 Feb 01 - 10:02 PM
Matt_R 22 Feb 01 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,just visiting 23 Feb 01 - 01:38 AM
wysiwyg 23 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM
Amos 23 Feb 01 - 02:18 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 16 Oct 01 - 10:56 PM
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Subject: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 04:26 PM

By way of a thought for the day, or week, or until our resident intellect returns:



We all have collections of "adjusted truths" -- for reasons that are sometimes forgotten, things we have asserted that were other than we first clearly saw or knew them to be. We do it from discomfort, a personal "flinch", confusion, a sense of practicality...but I think we all have several degrees and kinds of honesty and dishonesty we use in different situations and with different people.

If I were entirely honest, for example, I would be perfectly be willinbg to say how much time I waste maundering around in various universes of thought, word, verse and other mental notion, instead of actually exerting myself to move things forward in the stange stage we think of as the real world; I would speak more freely about the uncertainties which plague me, instead of making loud noises which sound certain; I would be able to say exactly how many times I have lied about bad habits like not-quite-quitting smoking, mental lechery, turning blind eyes to people in need, using a great array of explanations, settling for comfortable mediocrity in various ways when I could envision something better...I suppose I could go on and on.

If we could feel completely free to be wholly honest in all ways, with ourselves and each other,
(1) what kinds of things would we be honest about? and more important
(2) how would this change the way we feel and act in our ordinary daily lives?

As Áine might say, "double-dog dare ya....". But only answers given freely count...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Callie
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 04:49 PM

I think that a lot of "lies" could be more aptly described as survival techniques. If I was more honest I'd spend a lot of time admitting I was hurt by people or disappointed in people. However, I think it's best to cover up a lot of this and just get on with it, or there'de be no getting out of bed, you know? Besides, I always get the sense that if you let people know your vulnerable side, it can be (and is) used against you.

I'm not a people hater by the way! Or a whinger!

Callie


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: MMario
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 04:55 PM

If I were completly honest, I would probably either be dead or a total hermit.

and I KNOW I would be unemployed.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:04 PM

So, were we to magically become honest to the core, the first things out of our mouths would be several bales of critical opinions and hurt feelings and other reflections on our view of others.

And likewise, we would probably be surprised at the unburdening of criticism and disappointment we would receive from others similarly transformed.

Suppose we got through that part, and were still commuinicating somehow.... Then what? (see 1 and 2 above).


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:08 PM

Amos, I went fishing partly to ponder this very thing, and reflected quite a bit on feelings of hypocrisy, especially here. My own hyposcrisy, I hasten to add; after reading the old thread on Spaw's close call, I felt that some people here are SO honest that by comparison, I am a fraud. Yet I know that what I lend my attention to makes a difference around me. So what was up?

I had come to care far too much about what people said back to me here. (Old baggage sneaking up.) What I came back with was a commitment to communicate not "from" my comfort zone to get answers that increase my comfort zone, but to make an intentional effort to communicate "to" what I perceive as stated needs. And to do so only as fully as the recipient seems ready for. It's a tough approach to hold to, especially as a committed Christian. I've committed to live in submission to a number of priorities and it can be hard to be honest to that (and ABOUT) that without going where people do not wish to go.

AAaaarggghhh!!! Words.

I also did some off-Cat e-corresponding while fishing that was totally no-holds-barred. Since coming back to active posting, that no-holds-barred approach is (I hope) enlivening what I choose to post. I'm putting my bullshit self-check up front as intention, not running it as a self-second-guessing monitor after the fact.

And also, the longer I live, the more I focus not on honesty but on accuracy. "Honesty" is such a loaded term. "Accuracy" however means refusing to settle for less than exactly what's in one's heart to say. In accuracy, you don't need to worry so much about the comfort zone. One of the things I love about your writing is that you don't need to be verbose to get the accuracy. (Envious.)

Finally, about comfort zones. I'm against them. I find life much more satisfying staying in that zone where there is safety enough to risk discomfort. That's where honesty can actually flourish. That zone comes either when all parties agree to maintain it with love and attention, or/and also when you have declared yourself safe from the inside. The Mudcat strives for the former, and I have the latter, so I especially find this a good place to communicate.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:22 PM

Well, I see there is a lot of "corona" around the word honesty, even though it is a simple, basic word. When you see what you see, and can say plainly that you saw it, you are being loyal to your own sense of what is true. I think one of the things I am dishonest about, and I will use the plain word directly for what it is, is my own love of being right, which is so strong that I conveniently forget what I thought or said if I think it was wrong. I was going to put his in the first person plural, but I am not here to speak about others. I greatly appreciate your remarks about comfort zones; I think they are treacherous in the extreme, allowing me to believe I am making good,or well-felt, well-reasoned choices, when I am making only comfortable ones and taking the work no firther than that. If I were going to list the top few things I disappoint myself in, that would be one of the key areas. And I can't even put it into clear language, it is so ingrained.

I am interested to know who else has insights they might add to this thread, as I think Catters are more direct and outspoken than the average to a large degree...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Callie
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:22 PM

What sets us apart from other members of the animal world is that we have the power to reason. Part of this reasoning, I believe, is knowing what is reasonABLE and knowing how one's behaviour might affect others. Therefore, there are more important things than pure honesty. If everyone were honest and returned to a Darwinist state of affairs, maybe only the rich and physically strong would survive.

--Callie


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:30 PM

Well, Amos, this is excellent. The question and the way you have put it have made for some frontier thinking already.

Regarding your last posting, I make you an offer. Shall we choose to assume, you and I, that henceforth we will not respect the comfort zone on our communication with each other? I am available for practice. However, since we don't know each other well, it might make for a too-challenging starting point. So it's not a time-sensitive offer; take me up on it any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,BeesWing
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:35 PM

If I were completley honest I would truely be ALIVE and F***ing free!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:41 PM

I will commit to trying to push this envelope.

Callie, a thought, just for the reflecting on:

Our social network is like a matrix in which we are the node. And the sum of the awareness of reality of that network -- the intelligence of the group -- depends, to a large degree, on how "accurate" the data it exchanges is. One of the harder lessons I have had to start learning since I tied my fate to that of a loving wife and a loving daughter, is that inserting false realities into the matrix, out of a sense of self preservation, actually undermines the ability of the others in the group to see clearly. This is unkind to strangers, and treacherous to friends.

On the other hand, you and MM have both pointed out that there is significant risk in being "too" honest, among those who would use it against you.

So we have a situation that almost forces us to be torn between risk from being honest, and another risk, more subtle but perhaps no less dangerous, from being dishonest. Hard puzzle, once you start to fiddle with it. I am not thinking of moral codes, here, as I think we have an abundance of them, but more ofthe practical ramifications of decisions in a communication matrix of living humans.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:46 PM

Wow, great thread Amos. Naturally the cyber-anonymity (to a certain point) makes us a bit more courageous, but I'm afraid that if we were completely honest in our dealings with each other (and ourselves) we'd find almost instant isolation...and those that seem to welcome that state must live terribly sad lives. One example would be our most vocally vicious Mudcatter...would anyone really want to be in his shoes? And yet... he may also be the most honest in terms of expressing his dislikes.

I think I'll stick to a little dishonesty now and then, rather than risk hurting people's feelings. I realize to some, that's a totally wimpy attitude, but I really like people, even when they irritate the hell out of me. When I've gotten REALLY honest with someone about what I consider an important issue, there's always been a lot of residual fall out, and after a while I often feel sorry for having been too blunt. I often use humour when I'm ticked off (as a reading of some old mudcat posts will attest)

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:48 PM

Clarity comes and goes, too.

Amos, I would go back and put 99% of what you said above in bold type.

Then I would ask, how come you titled this thread under the prefix of BS?

Then I would go take your recent advice to shut down the computer. Then I would take a shower, see if Hardiman is anywhere around, make dinner... and see what a real-world application of these thoughts leads to.

You made my day today, just being yourself.

BTW, man, ye'll need to get accustomed to heerin' ye've made me day wi'out even tryin', if we're ta stretch the old #10 oot t' th' full manila mailer it may yet be!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:52 PM

What MMario said.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 05:52 PM

Amos, sometime you have to unravel the feelings to get to the core of honesty.
Becoming aware of how you honestly feel about something, that is a good start.
Then ask yourself 'Why do I feel this way?'
Learn your personal list of defensive mechanisms and observe how much of what you feel is a defense for this or that issue you have carried around for years.
Under all those issues & defenses you will find what your heart honestly feels. And I bet your heart would honestly say something different.
Once you reach an awareness of what your heart would honestly say, you will not need to ask any more questions and you will feel safe to say anything your heart truly feels. And believe it or not others will feel safe to listen to it too.
It only takes one open heart to get some honest communication going.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:00 PM

There's that zippy Little Neo I'm getting to know-- I see why she is so loved here! Zip! Zap!! And away!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:01 PM

BeesWing:

Welcome to the Cat, and thank you for a very interesting answer. I feel that way myself sometimes, but I have never been quite able to articulate whythis would be so...can you? I'm just curious how it looks, not trying to push you. Wondered if you had any thoughts about it...

Priase,

Thanks so much for the kind words. A delightful unanticipated effect. Lemme know how it goes with H if you would like to...

Rick:

I have thought about what you said -- I care for people, and I think there is an interesting dilemma that you point out. It can be brutal to speak more bluntly than another can experience comfortably. It can be equally unkind to leave them with false realities. Maybe in betwen there is the fine art of the acceptable truth, the honest thing kindly said. And it is an art, certainly one I haven't yet mastered. One thing I know that makes it easier is that I have come to think that when I have highly critical thoughts about the way another person is, it may be true that I am having them, and they may be persuasive tome at the moment, but I don't think they are true. Any more than a pimple is a true statement of how I feel about eating. SO throwing them out without the additional perspective that they are transient and only symptomatic, would not only be harmful to my communication with others, it owuldn't be, I guess, the best truth I could muster...

Man,this is a thorny little path sometimes, isn't it...

See ya later...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM

Last on this today from me-- a HUGE difference is, are you hanging in with the person once you've said yer piece, and working through the resulting stuff, or dumping and going? My preference is obvious.

I try not to loose what I won't help handle. Can't remember the Biblical quote exactly-- what you loose shall be loosed, what you bind shall be bound...

And when it's uncomfortable stuff someone needs to hear, and in the context of a relationship that calls for people to deliver these words when appropriate, then it is important to make the time to catch the reaction fallout which has to come before the caring words can be integrated by the recipient. You have to be willing to take that freight for the honesty thing to work in relationships you care about.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:11 PM

Oh, I thought you ment country matters.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Callie
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:22 PM

In a totally honest society, what happens to principles like generosity, charity, persistence, honour, acceptance of all people, physical safety, the distribution of food resources, public service etc etc? --Callie


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:26 PM

Amos, sometimes when we become irritated by someone else's behaviour, we are actually seeing things we despise about ourself only we see it magnified in someone else.
For instance, if deep down in side I feel kind of stupid (for no valid reason, I just do) then I may find myself being more judgemental or criticial about someone else's stupidity.
It is a lot easier to see the things we don't like in someone else than to honestly face seeing how we truly feel about ourself.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:40 PM

Good thread Amos.

Spaw---that's as honest as I can get on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Allan C.
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

"What a tale my thoughts could tell!" "But if you read between the lines, you'd know that I'm just tryin' to be real."

Being completely honest is something I really strive to do. I speak straight from the heart, for the most part and try very, very hard to tell people what I think without injuring them in the same breath. Usually this is possible. Sometimes, even though it causes problems for someone, it is good to set things straight.

For some reason I am reminded of the time when I was a store detective. I watched a woman load a color television into a shopping cart. Then she pushed the cart out of the store. I stopped her when she got outside. She was charged and convicted of grand theft. She spent some time in jail and paid a rather large fine. A few years later I was working as a convenience store clerk and the same woman walked into the store. She recognized me immediately and walked up to me and gave me a hug and thanked me for what I had done.

I imagine there is some sort of parallel here, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Good story though.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Osmium
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 07:06 PM

Hi Amos
This is coming slow because I'm having to think about it. I can only approach this on another tack (sailing again Praise).

In some sense the human condition may be brought about by the smallest preferntial desire to teke care of one's own children before others. There is a selfishness to all of us but (to my mind) it is not necessarily born from the "enemy of evil" but can be generated by preferential love. I'm not trying to raise flames here but to go very gently. It is natural for a parent to want the best for their children, and the result of children that grow up lacking this love are clearly evident everwhere, but this very gentle preferential pressure becomes the syndrome known, I suspect, as the selfish gene or the original sin. Once selfishness in some degree is accepted as natural then the offspring is something of the problem to which you refer.

I can't for the moment put any more of this down, but we are all human, it's not a perfect world, and sometimes the listening stick will be required. To be honest may require that we forgive ourselves more freely than we have been used to for a failing that was never a failing but something that was thrust upon us for survival.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 07:10 PM

A great story...y'know I think sometimes that the worst rage our worst maniacs feel is just an extreme case of soemthing we all boil from in lesser amounts -- a bunch of turth wanting to get out, the pain coming from the failure/inability to communicate when something is desperately needing to be spoken. And I suspect that the understandable polish, the hypocrisy we all agree is "necessary" to make our social lives work...is part of the reason why our species keeps turning up homicidal and stupid.

Neo, I am really struck by the truth you have pointed out...I am never so critical of others' stupidities as when I am sitting in the middle of my own and not wanting to admit it. I think here agian that Rightness for its own sake (as distinguished from a rational "right" analysis or feel of things) is the devil in the works. If we didn't have to be right, how much righter we could get, eh? :>)

Spaw,

I hear you , and thanksfor the remark...I imagine you coul add some brilliant insights tot his paradox-ridden thread should you wish to...

Thanks to all those who have added to this...Iactually feel like we are getting somewhere...dunno where, but it feels that way to me...

Beeswing said if s/he were totally honest s/he would be f***ing free. I'd like an understanding of this if anyone can offer one...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 07:27 PM

Amos, I figure if Beeswing feels he/she would be f***ing free if they were totally honest it may mean that they are just basically feeling frustated because they are not able to be totally honest. But being totally honest is something they really want to be.

Not too complicated, I think.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 07:51 PM

One thing that I have personally learned about "truth", the hard way, is that one should be prepared for the fallout that may result, it is quite often very painful for all and the freedom is sometimes a long time coming.

At one time I thought that to live by the credo "do no harm", would suffice, until I was once struck by the thought of Bruce Coburn playing If a Tree Falls on a piece of Brazillian Walnut. I realized I cannot be in the world without doing "harm"; the paradox. Now I just try to lean towards the light, and because I am human fail miserably quite often.

I don't know if I have stayed on track regarding the original question but that is where I went in my mind after a bit of preoccupied thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 07:57 PM

Great story Allan.
Sometime when the issue is really important, like Rick was mentioning, it is best to be honest and say it like it is. Even if there is a fall out.
Sometime we will regret being blunt, but I feel in the end maybe it was the best thing. Though painful, sometimes you never know what impact it will have on the other person. It may be exactly what that person needed to hear.
Sometimes being totally honest can be really scary, but after all the storm has cleared, your relationship with that person may be much closer.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Allan C.
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 08:21 PM

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, Little Neo. Thanks for putting it into a complete thought!

I am forever puzzled by people who habitually speak unkindly or act in a way that can only be construed as being purposefully hurtful. Sometimes this, too, falls under the heading of being "honest". We sometimes laugh and refer to them as being "caustic". But, in their way, they are, I suppose, being honest (sometimes!). It is a fine line between being "perfectly honest" with someone andtelling them something that, although true, is not constructive. I guess what amazes me is the folks who either don't know the difference; or don't care. I just cannot fathom that behavior in some folks.

But regarding our view of our own children, I would have to agree - partially. I think for many it is quite natural to turn a blind eye to some of the things our kids do. But I also have seen those who are sharply critical of each and every thing a child attempts. Which is truly "natural"?

I think that in any endeavor to find the middle ground in our behavior, we have to battle one tendency or another. It is a struggle, usually. So, if we follow a bit of logic, it would seem that one extreme or the other would be the natural one and the middle would be somewhat UNnatural. Wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 08:24 PM

I guess perhaps the other side of truth -- however we communicate it -- is the willingness (is that a word, really?) to experience the effects if the truth as we speak it is something another does not wish to hear.



Well, this is a puzzle, because you have to ask, under what circumstances would someone really feel better not knowing how things are or were?

I don't mean the dramatic, social expression, "O, please, I'm sure I don't want to know" but in actuality, assuming one is not crippled emotionally, how would it come to pass that one would prefer not to know the way of things; because the obvious consequence of that choice is a preference for delusion.

Of course we all know people who are emotionally damaged, overwhelmed, weakened through drugs or biochemical causes, etc... -- perhaps this too is just a matter of degree, and we all have a truth threshold above which it requires too much attention, or too painful a re-thinking, or is too much for any iother reason, and we would rather shut it out even at the cost of not knowing.

This brings up an interesting thought, because it is one I have never seriously entertained before but am looking at seriously now: that both intentional truth and intention ignoral are virtues in their appropriate moments.

Maybe even intentional falsification...the most unacceptable conclusion, in some ways, but one that also deserves to be weighed.



I don't have facile answers but I am grateful to all of you for the opportunity to wrassle with these (I think) under-estimated issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 09:07 PM

Being honest to yourself matters, and it's hard. Recognising when you were putting on a front, pretending that you had good motives for doing something, when really you were showing off, or getting your own back.

Being honest to other people, in the sense of saying what you really feel - I think that's something different. In fact one of the things we are dishonest to ourselves about is just that - we say something to hurt, and tell ourrselves we are saying it because we are being open and candid and honest.

There's an expression they use in religious communities -"custody of the tongue". To some extent it's the same as the advice Thumper gets in Bambi which goes something like "If you cain't say something nice, don't say nothing."

Thee are times when it is important to let other people know the full truth about what we are thinking. But there are also times when we have no right to do that. And there are times when we do in fact have a duty to deceive other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 09:49 PM

Wow, McGrath...a duty to deceive...this boggles me, and I am expanding my mind just trying to get my mental arms around it. I have been jejeune and naive in many ways in my life, in spite of many adventures to strange places, and I don't think I have ever encountered a situation where I felt directly I had a duty to deceive, except where I believed I was dealing with someone who was already busy being an enemy to me. Hard to say.

I remember a bosn coming up to me one time with the idea of lifting some lumber he thought he could use from a large pile of it stored on the quay....and I told him I wished he'd never asked me, because then I had to say no. But that was a sort of practical hypocrisy, no duty there.

I guess I could see it plainly if there was no better way, in dealing with enemies or protecting the weak, or ill, in very peculiar circumstances...at least I could imaghine it.

When, then, have you really had such a duty, or known someone to...I am just curious to understand it better...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 10:29 PM

Amos, you've given examples of the kind of situations where there is a duty to deceive.

Now trying to think of whether there have been times when in deceiving other people I have been doing so because that was the right thing to do, or whether that's just an excuse because I'm not being honest to myself, that's the question.

Essentially, if telling the truth means that someone is going to get hurt who doesn't deserve to get hurt, I'd say you shoulkd avoid telling the truth. If the only effective way of avoiding telling the truth is to tell a lie, the right thing to do is to lie. To act otherwise I'd see as moral self-indulgence.(Mind, if you use language carefully, most of the time you can avoid directly lying - but there's no moral distinction in my mind, it's just that I'm a lot better at avoiding the truth that way than I am at directly lying.)

And yes, I can think of times that's actually happened in my life and in the life of people I know.And I'm afraid I'm not going to go into details.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 10:39 PM

Well, sir, I respect that. I think back on times when I lied to avoid causing waves or to preserve an apparency of innocence, and it was always that it was so much easier than it was to spit out an unpleasant truth. This other thing, though, is one I am less familiar with...perhaps symptomatic of the black holes in my make up, or perhaps just the nature of the draw.

I think I will first practice my honesty until I get much better at it; then I will see if I can also develop an ear for genuinely dutiful deceit.

I am open to anything anyone cares to add. I think this is a most rewarding set of answers, and thank you all for them.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 11:28 PM

I think for the most part, I think I have to agree with McGrath of Harlow on this. As per the original post, "completely" must mean everything, and yes, it would change my life. If being totally honest would ir-remdeemably hurt someone I care about, I would not do it, thus, lying IS a type of survival technique.(ie, if I had an affair, and decided I wanted to stay with my husband, you damn right I would lie about it!)
And Praise, yes, my feelings have been hurt here at Mudcat, and I have said to myself, well, that is it, I won't go back, but I do, because the positive here out weighs the negative.I decided a long time ago to decide what is really worth getting hurt over, and what is not.
I basically am a People Hater, and do not consider myself a "Nice" person, even thought others say that I am. I do not deal well with crowds, or Wal-Mart congestion, but I keep my comments in my head, for the most part. It takes a FLAGRANT breach of public etiquitte for me to lose it verbally.

I think if we were all totally honest, there would be far too much pain to deal with; we would all be overwhelmed. And Praise, don't let the (very) few bastards on this board get you down, it's not worth it.
I am still trying to operate on the Do No Harm principle, but that does include myself. I am coming off a very bad year, where I know I did a lot of harm to myself trying to avoid doing harm to those I love.
I am not a Christian, but there is a lot of good advice in their Book, and the one applicable here is, Love one another as you love yourself. I take this to mean that no one (except your god) can love yourself as you do, so love all others in that manner, and this does not bode well for our resident vociferous vocal personality, does it?
Thanks Amos, for this thought provoking thread, but you know who will probably cause us to have to change the litter box again!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 00 - 11:42 PM

Neo:

I just reread this thread and I wanted to say thank you for your very comapassionate and insightful answers. I am reached by them

Love,

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:09 AM

Chekhov said in The Lady and the Dog that all humans were possessed of a secret life that lies within the husk of their apparent life. Both the secret life and the husk (job, relationships, social roles) have their own laws, ethics, goals and rationale. Intimacy may yield glances of the secret life of two individuals, but since so much of the secret life takes place in the mind of the individual, it is ultimately untranslatable. Only in the artificial construct of a fictional composition, ie a character in a novel, are both lives of an individual known to us. This is why, at least for me, many characters in novels are more real to me than people I encounter in daily life. In some respects, people in this forum take on some of the attributes of the fictional all-revealing characters. Freed of the normal set of social roles and expectations, I believe that people here reveal more about themselves to each other, are more honest in the revelation of the secret life, than they would tend to be in their normal lives.

An interesting phenomenon occurred in this forum several months ago. The phenomenon of self-revelation requires a non-judgemental audience. This was a state that evolved to a peak about July of last year. The level of honesty in this forum was amazing. And then a series of attacks were launched (and I'm not using this example to condemn this individual)very arbitrarily. The entire tone of the forum changed, with people regressing in the intimacy and honesty of their communication. Styles were adopted, in defense, that are probably quite accurate reflections of the social (husk) styles of the forum members. Now, we seem to be slowly regaining the level of non-critical acceptance that held sway previous to the flurry of attacks.

Not sure this rant was on topic, Amos. I've enjoyed this thread immensely, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:38 AM

Amos, the envelope is shrinking again, it's all soggy from whatever that is running down my face all salty hot wet and discouraged. It must be a woolen envelope, paper would strecth form this.

(I think I let somebody jump up and down bositerously on my toes which were already sore and I guess not healed yet. One in particular was donwright mean.)

However, I am sure that the envelope can be dried out and made pliable, and re-enlarged, and I'm not going away. No doubt it stretches better after such a wetting.

Honesty is complicated; we can usually only see the part surrounding us... the farther reaches are quite foggy sometimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:45 AM

Related to what LeeJ said, I am with Spaw on this one. I can honestly say anything I say can and will be used against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Night Owl
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:19 AM

"Freed of the 'normal'set of roles and expectations..." Thanks for those words LEJ. While reading through this thread, I was trying to find a way to articulate the reasons that I feel my work (adults with brain injuries)requires honesty and why I love my job.....and why I have such difficulty transitioning back into the 'normal' world. We had a discussion here, a while back, about why those "magic" music moments happen between people late at night. If I remember, part of the dialogue had to do with peeling layers off of our protective coatings until eventually the music could really be "shared" openly, honestly...which simply takes time to do usually. I am VERY thankful to be working in a field which requires me to leave my protective coating at the door. The transition becomes difficult when I forget to put the coating back on when I leave work. Thanks for starting the thread Amos!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:43 AM

I guess I experienced today what Spaw and Kat said, and to be honest (!), not just as a recipient but also as a disher-outer. If we could all read minds it would be so much simpler. It would probably suck though.

A friend of mine was talking about her workplace and co-dependency one day. She said, "Well there's that handy line down the middle of the floor of the long, long hallway-- to one side for co-dependency, to the other side for health." We joked about walking around at work, demanding that people tell us whuch side they are on so we could avoid the bad side!!! She was talking about how on any given day, people she knows well might appear on either side of the line, depending how they're doing with their old baggage on that day.

It got me started thinking about a lot of other things you could put along that line, side by side. Things that might look a lot alike, but one would be a healthy thing and the other, not.

In the idiom of earlier postings here, we could put Comfort Zones on one side of the line, and Safety on the other. You could put Responsible Honesty on one side and Irresponsible Flaming on the other.

Today I was thinking about Barriers and Boundaries. (Back to comfort zones and safety zones.) One I barely see, don't want, and hope others bash right through any I have left. The other I search for and try to respect, and hope others do too.

I think one of the difficult things about honesty is that the line is seldom straight, clearcut, continuous, or even visible. It looks different from either side too. This is much more complex than simply the old joke, "I'm persistent, you're stubborn." What I find interesting is that some of the stuff on the unhealthy side of the line is often really taken as gold. It seems the two can masquerade for each other, even fooling smart and perceptive people sometimes. So along with the need for honesty is the need for discernment-- a good bullshit detector. The ability to "see" what's in the heart. Some have a lot of this gift. It makes the honesty work intensely and well.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Patrish
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:33 AM

I have read through this thread thoroughly and feel unable to write what I feel. I have stared at the empty message box trying to repond. The honest answer is, I don't know how, there are so mant thoughts going round my head about truths and lies I have told and those that have been told to me.
Two things come to mind.
I want people to be honest in there feelings for me
But I dont think I would like people telling me they hated me, even if it was the truth. I suppose I am not very brave, but I will reread this thread and think on
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:39 AM

Patrish,

I think that right here is as safe as it gets. I hope you'll keep reading and sharing. What you just said was a good chunk to start with. It's a big challenge just to ponder this. Try to use that sense of things going around and around to let new perspectives bubble up... It isn't important how soon you know what you think, but it makes a lot of difference just to wonder about it.

Again, I can honestly say even after having a pretty raw day here at the Cafe, it's all worked for my good, and it isn't safer anywhere else on this earth. I've looked. I'd bank on it. It's a good place to take a risk. when it's the right time.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:40 AM

Patrish, IMO, sometimes it takes more courage to protect yourself from hateful words than to allow them as some misguided example of so-called honesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Patrish
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 05:28 AM

Praise
I am still wondering.......thanks

Kat
I not quite sure I understand you. I have one over rinding memory of my younger sister launching a tirade against me. I remember thinking while it was going on that I was quite calm. Afterwards It was like grief, disbelief, anger and great sadness. I never want to through that again - is that courage or cowardice?
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:09 AM

Thanks Amos, that was really kind of you to mention.

Unfortunately, I had to leave in the middle of this wonderful Thread of Though you started because I had made other committments. Perfect example where I should have been honest and said, "Sorry, I am busy, and stayed On line".

I would like to add one more thought about what you and McGrath were discussing when it comes to the 'Duty to Deceive'.
Maybe it is best to ask "Of what benefit will it be to the other person if I say what I want to say?" If you can not come up with one benefit that the other person may gain from your honest feelings except that they will be terribly hurt, then why say it?
There will be no purpose in your telling of the truth except to fulfill your own gratification. If you can see this and at the same time feel you care about the other person's feelings, you may also find yourself sensing a duty to deceive.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:05 AM

I was once part of a team assigned the task of maintaining a piece of equipment. As a member of that team, I can honestly say I was a poor performer. I had neither the knowledge nor the motivation to improve my performance. I knew this. Sadly, there were other members of the team who performed more poorly than I - who, either through pure ignorance or mindless devotion to total self-deception, thought they were God's gift. I sucked but at least I could console myself with the fact that I knew I sucked. No murky denials to cloud honesty's dead reckoning. The other pitiable bastards hadn't a clue and for that were truly in shite's state of affairs. Shakespeare must've drawn inspiration from their forefathers when he quilled his memorable line about being true to oneself.

Neil Lowe


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:19 AM

An amazing group of people. Thank you all for your remarks.

About hateful, angry and critical communications...let us remember what it feels like when someone is not only being honest and direct but also knows with understanding what s/he is saying, not just swimming through a bunch of 'stuff' and not acting it out.

Under those circumstances you get almost always communication that is at least intending to bring about understanding, and is almost always clear, at least reasonably rational, and has no hate in it.

Conversely, there's no liar like an angry or badly frightened. It is in the nature of anger to be unable to differentiate or understand; it is in the nature of understanding to calm anger. Truth tends to dissipate anger and hate. (Usually). Surely there is a relationship between the amount oft ruth we get and give, and the degree of rationality we live with?

Critical and hateful feelings are not just "normal" and they are almost never caused by what they are attributed to, but rather by the individual's own fear of discovery, disappointment in self, sense of guilt. If those were to be defused the criticality would dissipate even though the target of the criticism has not done anything to "change". In other words these "attacks" are confessions. It is easy to lose sight of this and thus get intrigued by the hateful words, and therefore take them literally and allow them to tear you up.



But this is kind of like taking demagoguery for political guidance. It misses the nature of the thing. An easy mistake, since we are conditioned to understand by the word, not by the intent. But if you remember that there have to be untruths predominating in the mix for someone to get into so vituperous a frame of mind, there's some comfort in it. I have never known anyone to rant critically while experiencing a moment of truth. For that matter, I have never known anyone who was really critical in the sniping and cutting and vituperative way to be telling the truth or much interested in doing so, in fact, even when they assert they are "just being honest" while tearing your heart to shreds. That is not what it purports to be.

I think learning to make these distinctions is perhaps the hardest lesson of all. When does a soft answer turn away wrath, how do you get such a one to shift gears, and when and how do you just have to put the hobnail boots on and blast because there is no other remedy.

And how do you preserve your own strength or clarity in such a complicated mess of a place?


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:27 AM

Well Neil, to feel safe enough to honestly say you are not up to par, is admorable.
It is a matter of feeling secure and comfortable with who you are that offers you this freedom.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: MMario
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

been thinking on this quite a bit....and something I feel to be the truth I need to say.

It seems to be the prevalent attitude in todays culture that silence is "lying" - or somehow dishonest. I disagree.

Honesty does NOT necessarily mean brutality. I have met people who pride themselves on their "honesty" - when in fact, they often offer their brutal opinions unasked. In this case, I don't think they are being prompted by honesty, but a desire (conscious or unconscious) to hurt.

Silence is not necessarily dishonest. I have sometimes flat out told people I would not answer their questions as I was unwilling to lie. (That in itself tells them something)


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Patrish
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:46 AM

There is a saying "To your own self be true"
In my previous post I told you about an upsetting experience with my sister. The only reason I got through this was my sense of right. I knew I was being true to those I love and, to be honest myself.
I used the silent thing I did not say anything in haste.
Honesty is what I expect from people, sometimes I am disappointed, but I live in hope.
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Fortunato
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:10 AM

Little Neo et al. It is more than a little frustrating that some of the best stuff arrives here while I'm fast asleep. Anyway it is a pleasure to hear the your voices, you lift me up. Thank you. If you're still out there, and I hope you are, I offer: From where do our thoughts arise? Are we the thinker or the vessal? They arise and pass away, and if we are silent in their passing have we not been totally honest? I believe honesty is easy. Absolute forgiveness for all of is difficult. kind regards Fortunato


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM

Of course when you have something dificult to tell someone you love, it's wonderful when you can say it not only well but un-hurtfully. In my coimmitted realtiuonships, I think sometimes I have done this best by MAKING myself wait until I can say it so that ther will be no harm. In some cases, years have passed while I waited to grow in grace to be able to say it for their good, not to serve myself. The silence has been the most loving response I could make under what have sometimes been really awful circumstances. when I finally did speak, the hurt I had felt had become detachment and all that was left was a friendly concern for the growth of the other.

Waiting for that moment is very very hard. In this instant-speak e-place, I forgot that principle and others I hold very high, completely. Just lost it entirely. I got so hooked by something that hurt so bad, and was only old business, that I went somewhere I wasn't ready (and others weren't either) to go. Oh I was honest. I was so honest I made no sense. Not sense the way I felt I was making it, at least.

In the most committed (human) relationship of my life, I am blessed that my "other" and I have never been so hooked at the same time that we just have no detachment left on either side and thus argue or 'fess or spew ourselves into a hole we can't find our way out of. One of us always seems to have the breadcrumbs to lay a path. Maybe the fact I'm here at the 'Cat today means there are other places that can be like that too. I don't know.

Here's a metaphor. I ate way too much chocolate yesterday and got gas. I joked with my step daughter that I had carbonated my ass and gotten me a case of the bubble butt. (This is true, and it was a gritty old bluesman's voice I used!) Thus led to the realization that Praise may not be the only accurate name for me here; I may from time to time be somebody called Sparkling A**hole. I just have to hope that it tickles, I guess.

Patrish-- I would like to address what you *said* to Kat. Here or personal page, if OK with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Dan Keding
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:45 AM

Complete honesty - only if it came with complete acceptance, complete tolerance, and a thick skin. Old saying: To remain silent is to appear a fool, to speak is to remove all doubt. If honesty is to be complete it would have to be silent at times. Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Patrish
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:48 AM

Praise
It will have to be here. I dont know that I can access the personal pages as I am a guest at the moment.
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Patrish
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:20 AM

Praise
I will have to go in 20 minutes and will not be back until monday. If you want to e-mail me, my address is pat@rtn.co.uk - I will access this on monday am
kindest regards
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:45 AM

So, we seem to concur that silence is an honorable and sometimes kind choice.

And that some people use the thin disguise as honesty when they are really being hurtful.

And that hurting others in speaking unpleasant true things is "bad", at least sometimes more bad than using well-intended artifice.

We also seem to concur that we all know what it is to be hurt.

I am thinking about the original question , which was, "If we cold feel free to be totally honest, what kinds of things would we be honest about?" and it is clear that even if we felt free to do so, we would prefer not to blurt out critical thoughts or thoughts which would hurt.

I agree, but there are a number of things I would like to be totally honest about, which it is not totally comfortable to do, even though it would not be especially hurtful to others -- crossing the divide that LEJ so eloquently described between the inner and social worlds.

I can't help thinking that if we learned to integrate those two worlds with some ither method than walls, we could be better people individually and in groups. This seems to me to be one of thegreat things about the Cat -- the feeling that we evolve in that direction.

kat, and sPaw:

Since I also think this evolution toward a better destiny, through a refinement of how we manage our own awarenesses, may well be the reason we are on this planet, I think it would be orful to let the mission be disbanded because of the shrilling of a few lower life forms! :>)

A Sorry if this sounds extreme, but if there is any answer to the archetypal question, "Why are we here?" I think the answer must be along the lines of evolving our own destinies. So there I am, warts and all...


As I recall what you do when wounded in battle, if you can, is bind 'em up and keep going...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:51 AM

TRUTH #1- It amazes me what can go on in 18 hours around this joint.

TRUTH #2- I've read this thread 3 times and I have no idea what a lot of it means.

But to add to your thoughts which are obviously deeper than mine, I give you the late, great Allen Sherman from his book, "The Rape of the A.P.E." on the subject of truth:

***************** WHY LIES ARE BETTER THAN THE TRUTH **************** (A Scientific Comparison)

I. CREDIBILITY: All lies are designed to seem true. The expert liar carefully uses elements that seem probable and logical and therefore easy to believe. On the other hand, The Truth is often illogical, wildly improbable and hard to explain. Summary: Lies are more believable than the truth.

II. RELIABILITY: The Truth is spontaneous, accidental and unpredictable. Lies however can be planned in detail long in advance and are thus guaranteed to turn out just as predicted. Summary: Lies are more dependable than The Truth.

III. ECONOMY: To be The Truth, an account of a given event must be completely accurate. This requires painstaking resourcefulness, expensive research, time consuming attention to detail, complex logistics and thoroughness. In spite of all that, some people will believe it and others will not. A lie will produce the same results without all the fuss and bother. Summary: Lies are simpler than The Truth; Lies cost less than Truth in time, money, and effort.

IV. VALUE: The Truth can be found anywhere; it belongs to anyone who finds it, absolutely free. Lies are custom-made, often by experts, and the best ones are highly polished works of art. Summary: Lies are worth more money than Truth. Have you ever heard of anybody bribing a witness to tell The Truth?

V. RESPECTABILITY: A) Great fortunes have been made by selling Lies to the public. The people who sell these lies are often grateful to the gullible consumers, so they endow libraries and universities and cultural centers. B) Nobody ever made a fortune selling The Truth. First of all, as already stated, The Truth is free. The only people who will pay money for The Truth are people who are being blackmailed--and they are only buying The Truth so they can hide it before anybody else sees it. Summary: Lies lead to libraries and universities, while The Truth leads to blackmail.

VI. STABILITY: A) Take 1000 parts Truth, add 1 part Lie. Result: A Lie. B) Take 1000 parts Lie, add 1 part Truth. Result: Again, a Lie. C) Note that you can make a Lie out of The Truth, but you can't make The Truth out of a Lie. Summary: Lies are stronger and last longer than The Truth.

VII. IMAGINATION: In reporting The Truth, a person must research the precise facts and stick to them exactly as they occurred. The liar can report the same incident without doing any research, merely saying whatever comes to his mind and filling in "details" according to his fancy. Summary: Lies are more creative than The Truth.

VIII. RECOGNIZABILITY: People are accustomed to hearing lies all the time. Summary: If you tell The Truth, people will think you are lying and if you convince them you are telling The Truth, they will become suspicious. (Why is he suddenly telling The Truth? What's going on?)

IX. SUPPLY & DEMAND: In describing any given incident, only one version can be The Truth, whereas the number of Lies possible is unlimited. Obviously, Lies are in far greater supply than The Truth. Frankly, there is a great demand for Lies, if they are flattering, if they build up one's hopes, if they help one escape reality, or if they promise wealth, health, power, or potency. Nobody is very anxious to hear The Truth. The only people who demand The Truth are those who are investigating something (lawyers, etc.)--and they only want The Truth to prove somebody is lying. Summary: Lies are the acceptable medium of exchange in our society. They are in good supply and the demand for them remains strong. The Truth is in extremely short supply and even this tiny supply far exceeds the demand. Thus in our society, The Truth occupies a position identical to that of dinosaur shit.

CONCLUSION:
Lies are superior to The Truth in numerous ways. Lies are ingenious; Lies make the world seem more pleasant; Lies are less embarrassing than Truth and less frightening. Furthermore, in fields such as diplomacy, statesmanship, merchandising, advertising, public realtions, and bookkeeping, The Truth is an out-and-out handicap. In friendship, Truth is harmful; in love, it is disastrous. The Truth is that The Truth has become old fashioned. Its full of odd shaped little nooks and crannies like so many old fashioned things; some people find them fascinating, but most people find them a pain in the neck. To find all the joys that go along with handling of and handing on The Truth is a labor of love, but most of us in today's society have no time for such things.

************************************************ ********

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: MK
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 12:07 PM

In keeping with the subject of this thread, NEVER tell your spouse or significant other, EVERYTHING. There are just some things they do not need to know.

(...andyou have to keep a little in reserve that is just for you.)


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 12:11 PM

Excellent, Spaw, thansk for the effort that took to get all of that posted.

Patrish, I believe recognising what you felt and knowing that you never *need* that experience again, is an act of courage. Too many people buy into the sickness of co-dependency, esp. with family members, tossing back and forth the tirades of accusations, etc.

Amos, I would be more than happy to discuss some of this privately. A lot of what you have been talking about I have personal experience of, and in what I consider my totally forthright way of recounting things, are just too painful and risky to post publically. There is nothing wrong with binding up wounds, replenishing one's supplies, and leaving to return another day. I prefer to think more along the lines of Tai Chi, with retreat and avoidance, helping the agressor on their way into the brick wall as they take a swing at you.

I do not think it takes a particular amount of courage to step in with tit for tat, not that that si what any of you have suggested.

I understand what Spaw was saying in his last post and, I guess in my concrete way of thinking, or practical if you will, I am frustrated with this thread in that everyone seems to be using fairly obtuse language without too many specifics. My initial reaction was to answer from experience with a list of things I would be completely honest about within the parameters of your original question. But, after thinking about it, I realised doing so would make me way too vulnerable to the few who will take any and every opportunity to attack.

If you go back to the threads of last July, Nov-Dec, and Jan., you will find that I have not shied away from trying to engage and resolve. You will also find that the Mudcat and I, neither one, needs that kind of *war*, so I have reached a new plateau of recognition, realising where and when it is efficacious to plant seeds and where not.

In my 3D world I am known, by friends and family, for my honesty; somehow, thank the gawds and gawddesses, I have learned how to say things, usually, without hurting. A lot of the times, I have fulfilled a role for friends of asking blunt, tough questions in helping them to define what they are grasping for in answers. This helps them to arrive at what we both believe to be the Truth for them at that given moment and has always served them and me in good stead.

Thanks for listening. If you'd care to discuss anything in more detail, please send me an email or personal message.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM

ROTFLMAO!!! If only that were true, threads like this wouldn't be necessary or interesting.

Dinosaur shit, indeed! LOL!!

But I think Allen Sherman is projecting. Just like he did in "Hello, Muddah, Hello Faddah" and "I've Got a Goil Her Name is Shoiley Klein".

That really lightens up my day, man. Thanks. LOL!.

Sorry if you felt the thread was weird, or something. Allen's perspective is popular but he's missing a few essential points, which is why it is so funny to read him. One of them is how much trouble within and without we get into when we lose sight of the the division between the truth and the things we've said. Speaking from personal experience it can be murderous on one's own sanity as well as that of others...

Lies also keep a lot more people busy than the truth so they're good for the economy, and in support of Allen's thesis, look how much money we are willing to funnel into Washington, a town renowned for having more lies asnd liars per square inch than any other city in the world

...I dunno, Spaw...maybe this truth thing isn't all its cracked up to be. Fokkit, we're just meat bodies on a fast free ride around the sun -- one time only, right? Might as well be liars to boot if it makes it more interesting or comfortable.

Sorry, it doesn't add up for me...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM

Well Amos, at least you have the numbers to add and can understand addition........puts you a long way past me.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 12:31 PM

"Some have tact. Others tell the truth." (What George Washington really said.)

Personally, I once won a liars contest by saying, "Folks, I never told a lie in my life."

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM

Thanks, Bonnie...understood.

About thirty-five years ago...I had a short, trivial affair with a girl in New York, and thought nothing of it...except that afterwards I heard from another person that she might have gotten pregnant. And I never did anything. Just "froze it out" and didn't try to find out if this was true or not, ducked the bullet and quickly convinced myself it had never happened. Geezis...The thing that makes it hang up in my mind is that it might be that I have this full-grown son/daughter out there in the world, who in turn is living with the great unknown of who one of their parents was/is. Or, has been given a substitute fact. Assuming it was a fact, and not just a rumor, and that it was allowed to proceed its course. But I never knew. And that is about the oldest secret I can remember, except for a few broken windows and playing with matches...

Any of that wine left? Maybe I should go over and open a Tavern...Post Truth Stress Syndrome Applicants Happy Hour...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:25 PM

Ok, guys, you can drop the embarassed silence now! Geeez! :>) Don't fight over the mike, here, guys...now start easy, just saw, Hi, tell 'em your name, and tell them you're a falseohollic...you'll see. It isn't bad once you do it the first time...

Uh.....Hi......uh....um....my name is ....Amos....um...um...and I'm a falseoholic!...(gasp)

Hiiiiiiiii, Amos!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, never mind....


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,Smitty
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:26 PM

To be perfectly honest....Seems like a lot of wasted time and effort (this discussion) with no resolution. Is this what Mudcat is really about? I though my enjoyment of folk and jazz was from keen scores and the savoring of lyrics... sorry, just a low-brow I guess...


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:27 PM

In defense of silence....sometimes our silence allows the verbose detractors to look the fool.

Amos...you're okay, bud, and I'm okay, too!**BG**


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Fortunato
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:27 PM

Well, Bonnie, some things are hard for lovers to get their minds around. I have a problem with old boyfriends, when they remain friends with my girlfriend, wife, etc. and occasionally visit. Makes me jealous as hell. Most unbecoming and without reason, but there it is. I keep my mouth shut until the urge to screw up my relationship passes. Duct tape helps.

honestly, Fortunato


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 02:55 PM

Damn... duct tape! That's what I wish I had learned thirty y ears ago!!!
You put it where??
Sorry to waste your time Smitty -- we have lots of cool music threads you might enjoy just through that door there.

OK, guys -- thanks for all your thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Allan C.
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:00 PM

You know, the fun thing about threads like this one is that once in awhile I find something in one that makes me want to write a song. Okay, so it wouldn't be a traditional folksong. But it WOULD be about folk(s) -- names witheld, of course. The songs I like the best are the ones about aspects of real life; even if those aspects are sometimes are often romanticized.

I mean, can't you just hear the song within the words, "duty to lie"?

I remain,

Allan C. theimperfectlyhonest


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:34 PM

Thanks, kat -- the public Sinner's Forum seems to have washed out -- any other ideas??? :>))LOL!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 03:46 PM

I told Harland and Wolfe to use cheaper rivets. I kidnapped the Lindbergh baby. I said to Lee, "What the hell Bob, fight 'em here." I pointed out to the captain of the Indianapolis that zig-zagging was a waste of fuel. I suggested to Dick that a set of tapes makes a nice library gift. I told Dennis Connor, "Fuck the keel, wings are for airplanes."

.........gawd, there's SO much more.........Ever hear about a guy named Jesus?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:03 PM

Well, now that Spaw is taking responsibility for his past incarnations, we can all breathe easy again...:>) This would make an excellent film noir, Spaw, kinda like a duck's breath version of Forrest Gump -- call it Scrubs Gimp or something...with the really terrific judgement calls starring you at critical turning points in Western civ.

"Admiral Halsey, you have nothing to fear from the Japanese -- they can't fly...". "I dunno...may be we should get George Custer in on this problem...". "Forgive me saying so, your majesty, but are you gonna let a bunch of farmers and printers tell you how to run your Empire?" "Jack, as your PR man, I'm telling ya, Dallas is IT!!!". Ouch. "I just know in my heart, sir, that Moscow will welcome you with cheers before the first snowfall...I just _know_ I'm rioght about htis..."

I heard Connor muttering in a bar the other night, down by Anthony's near the B Street Pier? Y'know -- where the Star of India is berthed. . .something about animal lovers and yardarms --- I dunno, it didn't seem like the right time to introduce him to the Mudcat...

Glad to see you've taken the First Step, Spaw!!!! I'm cracking up... sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:07 PM

Go on, Spaw, tell it all. The turkey sandwich you made Mama Cass. The time in Dallas you told the Secret Service "the hardtop's dirty, why not take the convertible?" The African honeybees you brought over on the Pan Am flight "cause they was jus' so darn feisty."


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:11 PM

Kat:

I admire your courage and frankness, and yes, the thread quickly veered ito the indirect, probably for the very reasons you mention. Honesty prospers in a safe environment. It is a lot harder in a dangerous one where it no longe rlines up with basic survival 101.

I went and saw Barky play a role in a ... just amazing ... play, Arthyr Miller's "Crucible". It has been so long since I saw or read it that I had forgotten it. It is one amazing and powerful piece of work, and it shines directly on the issue of how things come about when truth and survival part ways. A really tough, heart breaking play.

SO it looks like the problem of choosing betweenn being honest and being effective is not a new one :>) ).

OK, back to the music--give room, and foot it, girls!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM

Honesty is a tough thing. I'd like to think that always telling the truth and being honest to someone is the best thing to do. But sometimes, you have to pay a price for your honesty. You always hope that your honesty will help someone realize something about themselves, but sometimes in can be the worst thing to do. People will get hurt, inevitably...but I would hope those people would realize that what I said was me only trying to help, not make them feel worse.

For instance, some folks may remember my recent bout of depression and guilt...the multitudes of "don't worry, you'll feel better soon" things people said didn't seem to help one bit. Eventually, it was a dopeslap of honesty that finally helped me to realize what I had become. I then set my mind to making everything better for myself.

As an art student, you have to get used to a lot of very blunt, honest criticism. Sure, having someone completely take down something you've worked so hard on...but then, at least to me, it always becomes like a challenge aimed at me, to do even better--go as far as possible to make everything perfect. You may not even reach that perfection...but sometimes you can get close enough so that it counts. I know that noone is out to hurt me, but sometimes it's that straight dope that gets me motivated to get busy. Though I do know that some people do not realize these kinds of things, and take it badly. Like I said, it's a price you have to pay.

I'm certainly honest when revising people's papers...they don't call me "The Hatchet Man" for nothing! Some folks ignore the advice, some people end up despising you, and other take it upon themselves to improve. You never know how it's going to turn out...as Tolkien said "Even the very wise cannot see all ends..."

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:20 PM

Nice quote, mbo, and well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Fortunato. Personally, I think I could have used some of that duct tape on my last posting.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Biskit
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 04:59 PM

Man what honesty, what courage, what self awareness, I am humbled by it all. Now I'm sure someone is thinking I'm being a smartalec but truley i'm not I just wish I could come up with a gracious answer when my wife asks me........Do these pants make my butt look to big???If you say why no honey, she says your just being nice. I guess the best,(and most honest)answer has always been your fanny always looks great to me baby then you get one of those half smiles that always say I think your lying but thats ok. What's a (honest) boy to do?. -Biskit-


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 05:59 PM

Bonnie --

I thought your last posting was courageous and admirable. I sort of feel embarassed that only two people wanted to follow this lead, but, maybe even a safe public forum is too much open space for some brands ofhonesty, especially if it is a place where one has had his emotional fingers scorched in the past. So we can let it drift on downstream, but I wanted to thank you for saying what you did. No regrets.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:10 PM

I think this is a "mostly" safe public forum and there are some who would use things against others...and NOT in jest. I don't particularly give a turkey what anyone thinks of me, but tickling the ass of a baboon may provoke a shit storm and its gets 'teedjus" stepping around the blobs.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM

Well, I'm glad you're avoiding that teedjusness...I would hate to think I had inadvertantly fed you to the assholes! :>))

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 06:41 PM

Well Amos, like the ol' boy said, "I doan mind bein et by thet bar, but I shur hate ta git shit out over thet cliff."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Osmium
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:01 PM

i almost hate to do this but if your going to go deeply into "honesty" and define it as "telling the truth" then it pays to question what is "truth". Each witness will have their own interpretation of what was the "truth" and part of the "truth" that they witnessed will depend on the baggage (good or bad) that they carry. There are simple truths such as my wife's ass is just a bit big on which we might all agree (God help me if she reads this) and there are not so simple truths on which we might find it very difficult to agree. And somwhere here I think we get into the arena of belief systems; whcich is why "honest, sincere and intelligent people" will still find room to disagree.
If we could deliver the "truth" as we see it with just that modicum of knowledge that it is possible that we are wrong or that there has been a misinterpretation of someone else motives perhaps we could be more "honest" withou hurt than we customarily are?

But I could be wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:32 PM

We seem to be getting quite a few "big assed wives" here.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:37 PM

My sense is that for an individual to be honest with himself is the core thing, by which I mean he knows what he has seen, and can say what he has seen and that he has seen it, without self-deception. I guess I do not see automatic virtue in telling truth, whole truth to all and sundry, but if you lie to yourself, convince yourself that your explanations are true, then you are on the path downward...I have to run off leaving this incomplete.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 07:42 PM

Well thank gawd.....that last bit sounded a lot like Soren Kierkegaard. We used to make up things like SK describing his whang........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:03 PM

Hey, man, go describe your own fucking whang -- we're having a serious conversation here!!!f

So I suppose you think blowing on a**holes is a contribution, huh, anything for a ~~)(* possum, but ask a serious question and "I'm outta here" as the bishop said to the actress...Actually I was trying to say something simple. Let me know when the coast is clear and I'll pop out and say it. You jerk...)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:33 PM

Ooooo. NOW we ARE being completely honest, aren't we boys??!!**BG** And, who you all calling big-assed, huh? Good blackmail mater-ial in this one, now!!!Heeheehee

Bonnie, it's okay, darlin', just remember the silence is part of the balance, too.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 08:51 PM

Oooh...if I was totally honest about all you folks, I'd be in a LOT of trouble! Honesty is only a personal thing, and sometimes one's own belief of what they are honest about can be flawed.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:24 PM

To be honest, and to be the honest thing, the necessary elements involved in the honest thing must have in and of themselves a thing which contains that which is honest and therefore honorable without the feeling of honesty within all sides of the elements of the honorable thing, although the sum parts can be arranged to not produce the honest thing unless each component of the whole is arranged in such a way as to juxtaposition the the honest sides.

Amos Kierkegaard


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:33 PM

No one got my joke way up there, I guess? Sorry.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:36 PM

Don't be sorry Mbo, we all love you.

LN


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:38 PM

Spooky sometimes, ain't it Bonnie?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:39 PM

Good try. But honesty and BS don't really go too well together, do they?.

All credit to the honest ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 09:44 PM

Very spooky Catspaw, so spooky that I am not only going to look under my bed before I go to sleep, I shall look to see who is in it too.

Bon


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM

BS? C'mon, it wasn't THAT bad, was it? Shakespeare lover, that's me. I wonder what The Bard would have to say on the subject....if I only knew where to look.

--mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:49 PM

Mbo, "That truth should be silent I had almost forgot"
Antony and Cleopatra II,2
Enobarbus to Antony


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Mar 00 - 11:55 PM

or
This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not be false to any man.
Hamlet I,3
Polonius to Laertes


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 12:55 AM

Spaw:

Had me laughing out out on your imitation of convoluted philosophical language. You really crack me up.

Sometimes I think, Spaw that in your rough and tough humour and inner mushiness you really are the most honest person I know in the whole world. Then I wake up sweating and turn the light on.

I hope you understand I do not think of you as a jerk. I was just trying to use a vocabulary that would communicate.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:09 AM

Ya' done good Amos.....But avoid those night sweats and nightmares........Well actually, the nightmares are OK but I had a stallion show up one night and I didn't sleep for 11 days.

And there is honesty in BS that sometimes exceeds the tactful diplomacy of normal conversation. As Lord Byron always reminds me, "If I laugh at any mortal thing, tis that I may not weep."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: canoer
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 04:19 AM

This is the most amazing place ….

I don't know why "being honest" always is about faults. About-face! Look on the other side. How many people are "honest" about the good things they see in other people? In fact if others heard us tell them about the good attributes, abilities, character traits, we see in them – it would generally be a very embarassing situation also! Or at least we fear it would be. So we remain "silent" and therefore "less than honest" – and mostly people don't get to hear in words how admirable we may find them, or what admirable aspects, at any rate.

But we seem to automatically link "being honest" with dealing with faults.

I'm not sure this even rates 2 cents …

Larry C.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:48 AM

it was worth more than 2 cents Canoer, it was priceless. Thank you.

Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:40 AM

Thank you Canoer/Larry! That is a very important flip side of the coin. Interesting to contemplate all the reasons why we may sometimes feel embarrassed when receiving compliments.

(Though I doubt Hardiman the Fiddler ever feels that way when receiving Praise!!**BG** No offense intended HtF & Praise!)

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM

EXCELLENT thought canoer!!!!

BAD joke kat!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 07:54 AM

Great thought to wake up to canoer.
We still can in many ways move beyond the silence and complement another person when we see a quality in them we admire. It can be embarassing, or maybe we will worry that they might take it the wrong way, but I think it is well worth the effort.
If I think back to times that I have been told about my good attributes, abilities and character traits, I never forgot it. Especially when it came out of the blue from someone I never expected would say anything about me. I held onto those words like precious gems, even to this day.
Thanks Lar, wonderful thought
Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:31 AM

Canoer,

you really did a service flipping the flow with t hat one simple post. Nicely done.

I've often had a similar thought about luck itself -- those raised in the Protestant Ethic tend to feel they have to take "responsibility" for their bad luck, as though it were a reflection of themselves in some way, but they hardly ever are inclined to take personal responsibility for good events, calling them "luck" or "blessings". The former implies the cause of it was the machinery of the universe, random chance, and the latter implies the source (in some lexicons) was a Big Guy Behind A Cloud.



I'd rather take personal credit for any good luck I have, and blame the bad on other forces, if it were just up to me. I'd feel more heroic and life would be an intersting contest at beating the gods and wnning. :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM

You were all only looking at the negative side??? Hello? Have we met? No? Oh! It's wonderful to meet you!

Yes, praising does lead to interesting things, sometimes various anatomical parts even sparkle.

One image: apparently in my boundless positivity when first getting to know someone, I convey the impression of a small dog launching itself into their arms to lick them all over. Oops, didn't see those barriers! Yes, I am willing to mentally lick most people all over, and BTW-- WHY is that always taken as a sexual comment?

Another: a barrel full of crabs, with one trying to claw its way up and out, and the rest grabbing on to that one trying to crawl out too, and instead just pulling it back down. However another always begins the process again.

The last: a woman with her heart lifted high, full of those she loves, full of her Lord and Savior, praising all to our Creator, while the Evil works to stop the racket and get back to seriously messing around, but the song is invariably resumed, stronger than before.

Such can be the consequences of praise. Some of you have been praised already, although sadly quite imperfectly. How is that working for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM

It's interesting, isn't it, how many of us want this without being able to say clearly what "truth" is. As folk musicians, I think we have ears better tuned to hearing what is true than many people in the world today, because we hear more of it than most. And I don't mean things like "They're cutting down all our trees" tho it may be true. I mean personal things like "my music is in your hands".
Pause a minute before I answer someone and look at myself to see why I want to say what I want to say. Am I showing off? Do I want to fix them because I am uncomfortable with their pain? Does it cause me guilt? Does it satisfy me to correct someone (like we all learned in school)? Do I say something flattering because I want them to like me? Do I want to impress them? Do I want to hurt them? Am I trying to control them? Make them angry?

To do this, I have to know myself, and to know myself I have to get past being who I think I should be. I have to be able to see myself. Then I can see the other person For something I say to be true, it must come from both my head and heart. And I have to be in the present, not responding to something from my past. This doesn't mean it has to be nice. It can be something like "I don't enjoy listening to you complain." Or "That is bullshit." Nor does it have to be something critical.
Amos, I really like what you have brought to Mudcat when you added yourself to the mix.

How many people listen to what the other person is saying before responding?

I think we want to say and hear what is true, because it is what makes community, and intimacy. It means we really know each other, and only when you are really seen can you be loved, respected, appreciated. Otherwise the facade gets the recognition, not the self.

The Quakers say "answer to that of God in every one" or "speak to the Light".

Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 08:20 PM

Spot on Canoer ! But reactions vary. 1. One evening a week a group of friends and I gather at my ex-servicemen's club for dinner and a few coldies. Recently one of blokes ( a good friend of mine, age 45 ) bought his mother along. I took the opportunity to tell her, and the others, what a wonderful, kind & decent man I considered her son to be. ( recent events had proven this to be so ). Well my friend started to cry and was embarassed. What does this say ? Men have difficulty in taking on board "personal" type compliments in public ? I don't know, but I was certainly being honest and the result was that my friend was uncomfortable. 2. Women put in quite a bit of effort, and some dollars, on their personal appearance. And, I would guess, it's nice to be noticed. ( I,m sure the gals will put me right if I,m guessing wrong but my dear Mum,s adage was "it's better to be looked over than overlooked" ). Well, I do notice and I say so. It might be a compliment over a new hair colour /style, new shoes or whatever. Once again, I'm being honest but some of the return looks can be interpreted as questioning my motives.

JG / FME


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 08:39 PM

Thanks for the Shakespeare quotes, Met. How could I forget ol' Polonius' words! And I call myself a Bard Buff! Thanks again for reminding me!

--Mbo ('Tis pity, 'tis pity, 'tis true, 'tis pity)


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:57 PM

Barbara, thanks for your posting. It was very insightful and I think it sums up much of the problem we have been trying to tackle on this important thread Amos started.

Canoer has kindly navigated us back into the sunlight.

And JohnGray, if a woman were to misinterpret your compliments then she is missing out on your wonderful kindness.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 00 - 11:21 PM

Barbara for Queen!!!

Loved what you said, how you said it,how it made me feel.

Made me want to know you better.

Made me proud to be a woman, don't know why.

Maybe because you raise the standard up to something honorable to shoot for.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: canoer
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 02:18 AM

Oh, goodie. It worked.

I'm pleased that you folks found something worthwhile in my post.

Little notes back:

Amos, yes, the old Prot. Eth. In relation to us never getting credit for the good stuff, there's a quote I love: "Whatever you attribute to God, you take away from mankind." (Marx)

Little Bonnie hit most closely the type of experience out of which I wrote.

Barbara, consider, it's the feedback from others that helps us know ourselves. I suspect that without others' help, we are largely mysteries to ourselves, don't you think?

John Gray hits the "applied" part: it can be pretty tough to know how much to say, to whom, in what circumstances, without doing more damage than good. John, looking at it as one from the States, I'd say you laid it on pretty thick in relation to what "guys" can take in public. On the other hand, jeez, did he cry just because you were recognizing him for his character as he had never heard anyone do before? I think I might cry too. Maybe no one had been this honest to his face – which is where my post began, the good that is left undone by appreciations not spoken.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Osmium
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM

I have little to add to this except thread that I have to concur that we could all do better if we didn't leave quite so many unsung heroes around the place. Life can be a bitch but there are plenty of people out there trying to smooth troubled waters and sometimes they need a little verbal recognition. A butterfly's wings.....the ripples forever spread.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 05:47 PM

I didn't read this whole thread, but I do gotta add this, just as my 0.02...

there is no truth...

Only how each of us interpret what we see, experience, whatever...

My truth isn't the same as anyone elses, so how can I expect anyone to understand what I think of as the truth?

It's kinda like the line from "Driving Miss Daisy" from Hoak (sp?)

"How do you know how well I can see unless you can look out of my eyes?"

No one is possible of seeing the world from anything other that theri own point of view... We can try to empathise, but we can never fully understand...

I'm stopping here before this goes on for pages and pages... I think I've kinda made my point...

Say what ya mean, Mean what ya say, and stand by it!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 07:51 PM

This is so long in the loading that I almost didn't refresh it, but I am curious how what began here may be operating in your lives now, just over a week later. I guess if refreshing it brings a lot more replies we should "snip" this thread and blue-clickie to another. I don't presume to know if that will happen, so instead of starting a new one that will be unposted to, I'll post here and see what develops.

It's been just over a week since this began. Good God, what a time it has been!!! Who was I last week, I am more and less, now.

I would start by saying that the kind of honesty we have talked about here, and the ideals implied, take an enormous amount of time and other resources to fulfill. It matters with whom you make that allocation of resources. It matters why you're engaged in it. It matters to stay aware of how it is happening, and to be equally honest about that as about the things that the honesty might have begun over.

Honesty for honesty's sake does not apparently hold much interest for me, but honesty for the sake of something or someone I hold dear is of enormous interest. And honesty for the sake of that which I hold dear, seems to lead to holding the someone dearly as well.

I give thanks for the touching of lives this thread has led to.

And I apologize for poorly constructed sentences in the rush to say what I am speaking of! to! over! about!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 02:07 AM

wefresh


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:17 PM

I think it is inaccurate to say there is no truth -- I know of three kinds.

The first is the awareness of an event, correctly communicated with a full ssense of time, place, and quality of what occurred. Physical descriptions, for example, within the range of their defined terms, can be true. This is the ordinary truth of saying what happened rather than knowingly lying about it.

The kind of truth which makes up integrity is being clear that you've seen what you've seen, knowing what you know, saying what you know, and being willing to experience and know anything. This is an internal personal sense of truth.

The third kind is the ultimate knowing that is your innmost self, the ultimate I, independant of forms, identities, or labels, which transcends even time and normal space, which could have no other name.

So althought here are many mnay ways of seeing I wouldn't say it was correct to disallow the existence of truth. Sorry if this too philosophical for yer tastes, but I felt it needed to be said.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:59 PM

Yum!


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:02 PM

Refreshing this thread from a year ago, because it is one of the most interesting we've ever had.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:11 PM

This was a good thread. Wow..did I really write that stuff up there? I've changed a lot in the last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: GUEST,just visiting
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 01:38 AM

It IS good. Can someone start a part two?


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM

.... sigh .... why today?

I was called Praise when this thread began a year ago... but when I changed my name to WYSIWYG all the post tags in the old threads were changed retroactively too.

Amos and I did practice with each other as we had agreed in this thread to do. I think we bounced all over the universe in the process. And deep into each other's hearts, for the universe lies there as well.

It was wonderful, it was hard, it was many-faceted, and it was enormously time-consuming. It was complex like the structures of the universe; and it was simple, as truth ultimately is. It resulted in a friendship, complete with some of the very warts I think we'd meant to transcend in the honesty! Oh well, human beans!

One outcome for me was that I am much more honest and much more relaxed about it, in all of my relationships. This is not, however, because we "practiced." It's because the practice was allowed (by us both) to push past comfort. Many, many blowout sessions (RC-style, co-counseling, see www.rc.org) resulted. To pracice with one individual meant to do the session work necessary to keep the agreement and keep the communication flowing. Without that-- there would have been no progress at all, for me.

We were talking about this the other day, this thread, this "experiment" to practice. I said, as I recall, that we had ended up flunking in favor of friendship. He said, yeah, but we scored way higher than anyone else! Then he said-- and I laughed for what seemed like hours-- that we had totally broken the curve.

So yeah, this was a real interesting thread. For me, though, only because it was APPLIED.

So if we are going to a Part Two, can we please PLEASE talk about what is real, what we actually DO, or what we'd like to DO and can commit to TRYING?

Can we please NOT just fling opinions like a wet dog shakes off swampwater?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 02:18 PM

I dunno about swampwater -- that sounds like opinion about opinion, but I am happy to start a second installment of this thread for ease of loading. Feel free to find it over here.Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: If you were completely honest...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:56 PM

If you believe in Him, think about this one:

What if you could see yourself as God sees you?

No more pinnin' leaves..


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 22 November 7:18 AM EST

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