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US / UK differences - music theory

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Grey Wolf 31 Jan 00 - 05:25 PM
Gary T 31 Jan 00 - 06:28 PM
dick greenhaus 31 Jan 00 - 06:47 PM
Grey Wolf 01 Feb 00 - 08:08 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 01 Feb 00 - 10:11 AM
Amos 01 Feb 00 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 04 Feb 00 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 04 Feb 00 - 02:25 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 04 Feb 00 - 03:59 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 04 Feb 00 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Okiemockbird 04 Feb 00 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 00 - 11:05 PM
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Subject: US / UK differences - music theory
From: Grey Wolf
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 05:25 PM

A question for the specialists...

Whenever anyone asks me what I, IV, V means, I give the easiest example of C, F, G.

I am probably making an assumption, but most Americans here seem to say 'C, F, G7'

As such, all I IV V tunes become mixolydian. Is this a result of early blues music, or just a national taste?

The most 'english sounding' (whatever that means) music that I know never has a flattened seventh.

Any thoughts?

Wolf


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: Gary T
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 06:28 PM

I find that in many songs, either a G or a G7 will work well--they're essentially interchangeable. On the other hand, there are songs where one seems clearly preferable to the other. When I was starting out, it seemed that in folk music it was almost always G7, whereas in bluegrass it was always G. I question whether it's a matter of U.K. compared to U.S. so much as a combination of the type of music (blues, jazz, folk, bluegrass, etc.), personal taste, and what you're accustomed to.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jan 00 - 06:47 PM

A seventh chord is 1-3-5-7flat. A major chord is 1-3-5. Neither has anything to do with Mixolydian or any other mode. In G, a G7 is G-B-D a G us G-B-D a Gminor is G-Bb-D etc.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: Grey Wolf
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 08:08 AM

Dick

*blush* ok I made a mistake. In the key of C, adding an F to the G chord isn't mixolydian.

However, in reply to your message, a 'seventh' chord on the tonic surely has something to do with the mixolydian?

As you can tell, I'm not an expert, but isn't the whole flavour of the mixolydian mode the fact that it has a flat 7th?

Gary T,

I take you point - I guess that having seen loads of Americans here always posting the dominant with an added 7th made me assume that it was something of a national trait! Sorry for making stereotypes.

Interesting that you say bluegrass never uses them - will go back and listen more closely

Wolf


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:11 AM

The "flatted seventh" in mixolydian has to do with the placement of the chord on the scale, the "ti" of the do-re-mi scale sounding a bit lower. The "7" of the G7, C7, etc chords are as Dick Greenhaus describes it.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 00 - 12:52 PM

Who can describe for me in brief the origins and use of the mixolydian mode? I am sure I will recognize the use of it but I haven't been properly introduced to the term, and it seems such a handsome word, too.

A.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:23 PM

The myxolydian scale is G-A-B-c-d-e-f-g and its transpositions. It is mode-degenerate with the major or ionian scale unless the 7th of the scale be present.

But IF the 7th is present, it must be a whole tone below the tonic above.

So if you want to harmonize a myxolydian melody in a myxolydian manner, you can't use any chord with an F# (such as D). You may use G, C, Dm, F. The G7 is formally OK but if the melody is old, using G7 might introduce an anachronistic sound. Another possiblity for harmonizing the d, besides Dm and G, is the following guitar chord:

3-2-0-0-3-X

Which is a G-chord with the top string left out and the top string's finger moved to the next string down.

An example of a myxolydian melody is "Orientis Partibus", or it would be except that most modern editions raise the 7th and turn it into an ordinary major melody. (Peter Paul and Mary used this 12-th century melody, with the raised 7th, for one of their songs, the Christmas song with "I said the donkey all shaggy and brown". To retrofit it to myxolydian, lower the 7th.)

T.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:25 PM

Oops, "Orientis Partibus" is a 13th century melody. It might be older I suppose, but the documentation only goes back to the 13th. T.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:59 PM

This has all gotten a lot more confusing than it needs to be--first off, forget about modes, they are not really part of the answer to this question--

The major diatonic scale really harmonizes with I, VI, and V7 chords--if you leave the 7th out, the harmony looses it's dominant harmony quality, and it becomes ambiguous to the ear, because it doesn't have the unresolved, dominant sound, and it can sound like you have changed key--Generally, the dominant tension still is present in the melody, though, so you can get away without it in the chordal accompaniment--

The V7 chord has four notes in it, and is called the dominant chord--the fourth note adds the unresolved feeling that we are accustomed to in our western diatonic music, which bounces back and forth between a sort of open or unresolved sound that harmonizes with the Fifth, and a closed or resolved sound that harmonizes with the Fundamental.

The tension, or unresolved feeling comes from the fact that the V7chord contains a diminished chord (G7 has B-D-F, a B-diminished chord, and if you add the G to the top of the chord, you will hear a major second interval F-G, making it a very dissonant chord)..

The chord C6 contains C-E-G-A and G7 has D-F-G-B, which accounts for the whole scale, and the oldest diatonic major melodies that we still use are among the tunes used for Morris dancing. and they generally just move back and forth between the Tonic and Dominant chords--

Hope this makes things clearer, although one never knows--

Aloha,

Ted


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:59 PM

This has all gotten a lot more confusing than it needs to be--first off, forget about modes, they are not really part of the answer to this question--

The major diatonic scale really harmonizes with I, VI, and V7 chords--if you leave the 7th out, the harmony looses it's dominant harmony quality, and it becomes ambiguous to the ear, because it doesn't have the unresolved, dominant sound, and it can sound like you have changed key--Generally, the dominant tension still is present in the melody, though, so you can get away without it in the chordal accompaniment--

The V7 chord has four notes in it, and is called the dominant chord--the fourth note adds the unresolved feeling that we are accustomed to in our western diatonic music, which bounces back and forth between a sort of open or unresolved sound that harmonizes with the Fifth, and a closed or resolved sound that harmonizes with the Fundamental.

The tension, or unresolved feeling comes from the fact that the V7chord contains a diminished chord (G7 has B-D-F, a B-diminished chord, and if you add the G to the top of the chord, you will hear a major second interval F-G, making it a very dissonant chord)..

The chord C6 contains C-E-G-A and G7 has D-F-G-B, which accounts for the whole scale, and the oldest diatonic major melodies that we still use are among the tunes used for Morris dancing. and they generally just move back and forth between the Tonic and Dominant chords--

Hope this makes things clearer, although one never knows--

Aloha,

Ted


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 06:57 PM

Guy Wolf's original question can be answered without reference to any but major or minor scales, but Amos's question was about the mixolydian mode, and cannot be answered without reference to that mode.

The use of the V7 chord is a fairly recent (last few centuries) development in harmonization. I seldom use it, and never miss it.

T.


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Subject: RE: US / UK differences - music theory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:05 PM

I'd hardly ever use a 7th in an Irish session. Oh I might use the occasional A7, but only because I was getting cranmp playing an A and the fingers needed a change. And I've noticed that when I write the chords for song I've written, I hardly ever use a major 7th. I just don't tend to like the sound. (Minor 7th - now I like them - God knows why. It's a personal quirk.)


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